Consider This from NPR - DOGE work could 'cross extreme ethical and legal lines,' says former employee

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

On Tuesday, 21 DOGE employees resigned. NPR spoke to one of them who says she felt the new administration was causing "harm to the American people." As Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency work to remake the federal government, some of the people tasked with executing his vision have serious concerns about what the changes will do. For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail]. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

I had been in the private sector for quite a while, actually, for all my career previously, and I really wanted to dedicate myself to using my skills to help people and help the American people. That someone will identify using her first and middle initials, DK. We're not using her full name because she fears retaliation for speaking out. I worked on everything from how to implement AI in the government after the previous administration's executive orders. I worked on projects to help improve the benefit delivery system and improve the timeliness of benefit systems across the United States.

This work was at the U.S. Digital Service. It had been around for a decade and had hundreds of employees. On January 20th, everything changed when the newly inaugurated President Trump signed an order, changing the U.S. Digital Service to the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOJ. And we're going to be signing a very important deal today. It's DOJ. And I'm going to ask Elon to tell you

a little bit about it and some of the things that we found, which is shocking. Billions and billions of dollars in waste, fraud, and abuse. DOJ began its march through government agencies that very day. And one month later, its leader Elon Musk reflected on what they had accomplished so far. I actually just call myself a humble tech support here because this is actually... Musk spoke Wednesday at Trump's first cabinet meeting. He talked about his team's elimination of thousands of jobs in the name of saving taxpayers' money. We won't be perfect, but when we make a mistake, we'll fix it very quickly. So, for example, with USAID, one of the things we accidentally canceled very briefly

was Ebola prevention. I think we all want Ebola prevention. So we restored the Ebola prevention immediately, and there was no interruption. But we do need to move quickly if we are to achieve a trillion dollar deficit reduction in the financial year 2026. DK's job wasn't one of the thousands eliminated,

but on Tuesday, she was one of 21 Doge staffers who quit. Most had left high-paying private sector jobs for public service. And in an unsigned joint letter of resignation from Doge, the engineers, data scientists, and product managers wrote, "...we will not use our skills as technologists to compromise core government systems, jeopardize American sensitive data, or dismantle critical public services."

They wrote, "...we will not lend our expertise to carry out or legitimize Doge's actions. On the platform X, Musk suggested that the staffers would have been fired had they not resigned. And White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt responded to the mass resignation in a statement saying, quote, Don't let the door kick you on the way out. Consider this. As Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency work to remake the federal government, some of the people tasked with executing his vision have serious concerns about what the changes will do. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

It's Consider This from NPR. There was a time when federal government work was shorthand for a safe and predictable job. Not anymore. Today, federal government employees face drama, uncertainty, and conflict, coming largely from the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOJ. President Trump and DOJ leader Elon Musk are trying to shrink the size and scope of the federal workforce, and on Tuesday, 21 DOJ employees resigned in protest, writing, We swore to serve the American people and uphold our oath to the Constitution across Presidential administrations. However, it has become clear that we can no longer honor

those commitments at the United States Doge service. Well, our next guest is one of those people. DK told me everything changed the day after the inauguration. On January 21st, we were all required to attend 15 minute interviews with people who only identified themselves as DOGE and their first names. At that point, it was unclear if these were government employees or not. And after those interviews, we got the response of no comment on whether our projects should

change. And so it was a time of extreme uncertainty, but we tried to stay focused on the projects. And I know for me, try and just continue the work for as long as I could. Was it clear to you who was in charge? No, it was completely uncertain. And US Digital Service, or the organization formerly known as such tried many different avenues to get any clarity on who our bosses were, who we were reporting

to, who we could even ask for a simple HR question. It left us very isolated. So this resignation letter says people who arrived with DOGE fired technical experts, mishandled sensitive data, and broke critical systems. Can you give us an example of an instance you saw that happen? Yeah, there are quite a few. One of the big ones, and there has been information that has come out that is incorrect, is in regards to the Social Security Administration. The access to that data, that data contains all the information on any person who has

ever been eligible for Social Security. It doesn't mean that it's somebody who is actively receiving Social Security, and perhaps it could be somebody who passed away quite a long time ago. That data, not only is it being utilized incorrectly, but the access to it and the feeding it into other systems makes all of that data and all of the American people's data very insecure. How would you respond to people who say, well, these are disaffected Democrats who are heading for the exits?

I would say that is a gross mischaracterization of the United States digital service as a whole. While we were founded during the Obama administration, United States digital service still operated during the first Trump administration and was able to do good work during that time. We cover the gambit as far as our political leanings and part of being an EOP employee and the oath that we swear to the Constitution when we start is to operate in a

nonpartisan, nonpolitical way. We are here to serve the American people. It is not a political issue. You could have chosen to stay and try to work within the system. What was the tipping point that made you decide leaving was the best choice? The first real tipping point came when many of my colleagues were fired

for seemingly no reason when they had been performing exceptionally at their jobs and were dedicated to serving this country and to help improve this country's governmental systems. The second tipping point came when it became clear that second tipping point came when it became clear that the former United States Digital Service would be asked to become more involved with Doge's activities. And those activities are the antithesis of what United States Digital Service was founded upon and what the mission has been to do the most good for the most amount of people, to go where the work is, and to hire and empower great people, which means supporting our agency partners and uplifting the federal servants. I realized that my actions would, if I stayed, would just further legitimize DOJ and potentially cross extreme ethical and

legal lines. Cross ethical and legal lines how? Some of the activities that DOJ has currently been focused on are gaining access to government systems that house the American people's data. And with that, it is unclear whether they are upholding privacy and security standards that are regularly practiced throughout the government before the new administration came in. There's a high risk of the American people's data being exposed or being utilized for nefarious means.

And it also creates the opportunity for potential foreign actors to come in and get access to that data as well. That is completely across the line, both legally and ethically. And something I realized I couldn't no longer do good from the inside and that I must leave. DK was, until earlier this week, an employee at the Department of Government Efficiency. She, along with 20 of her colleagues, left Doge in protest.

Thank you for speaking with us. Thank you. This episode was produced by Mia Venkat. It was edited by Natalie Winston, Ben Swayze, Courtney Dorning, and Nadia Lancy with audio engineering by Ted Meebane. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

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