Consider This from NPR - Federal agencies are reeling from Trump administration cuts to government

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

Whether a "chainsaw," per Elon Musk, or "scalpel," as President Trump has said — the Trump administration is making deep cuts to the federal government within its first 100 days.And Trump has appointed personal allies with little experience in government to key cabinet positions.For the civil servants working to enact the missions of these government agencies, that's often meant another word: "chaos."NPR correspondents Tom Bowman, Michele Kelemen and Selena Simmons-Duffin recap what they are hearing from federal workers at the Departments of Defense, State, and Health and Human Services.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

There are a lot of metaphors floating around the Trump administration trying to capture its approach to reshaping the federal government. Here's one from Elon Musk. Musk wielded, said, chainsaw on stage at the Conservative Political Action Conference. Through the Doge Initiative, Musk has overseen many of the massive cuts to federal agencies so far. President Trump himself has been using different metaphors. We say the scalpel rather than the hatchet, he said on social media, or as he put it in the Oval Office last month. I don't want to see a big cut where a lot of good people are cut. I want the cabinet office last month.

So far, the federal job cuts have affected a lot of people who were doing important work. People like Scott Laney, who worked on the Coal Workers Health Surveillance Program, run by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health in Morgantown, West Virginia. We are the nation's doctors for coal miners when it comes to their lung health. By law, the program gave every miner in the country access to care for free. It conducted mobile x-ray screenings for black lung disease, but staff for the operation was slashed and the program was shuttered. It's going to have impacts on my neighbors. It's going to be killing young men and that story will go untold. The cuts to the federal workforce are just part of Trump's plan to remake government, though.

He is also appointed personal allies with little or no experience in government to key cabinet positions, like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at Health and Human Services. I'm gonna let him go wild on health. I'm gonna let him go wild on the food. I'm gonna let him go wild on medicines. And Pete Hegseth, who in his short tenure atop the Department of Defense has been engulfed in scandal. We're changing the Defense Department, putting the Pentagon back in the hands of warfighters, and anonymous smears from disgruntled former employees on old news doesn't matter.

Which brings us to one more metaphor. Full blown meltdown. That one comes from John Elliott, a former chief Pentagon spokesperson and veteran of Trump's first presidential campaign. Elliott resigned last week and then wrote an op-ed for Politico describing a quote, month of total chaos within the Defense Department. Consider this, scalpel, chainsaw, or meltdown, there's no denying Trump is reshaping the federal government. We'll look at what his changes have meant for three key agencies.

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We go to the story and take you along with us, wherever you get your podcasts. It's considered this from NPR. A change in presidential administration used not to be such a big deal, at least not for government lifers, meaning career civil service staffers in the federal government working for whoever's in charge. That has not been the case with this second Trump administration. The speed and size of the changes has brought dysfunction and chaos to a variety of federal agencies. We're going to hear from three NPR reporters following these changes. Michelle Kellerman, our long-time diplomatic correspondent

covering the Department of State. Selena Simmons-Duffin, our health policy correspondent covering the Department of Health and Human Services. And Tom Bowman, he reports on the Pentagon, the Department of Defense. Hi all three of you. Hello. Hi. Nice to be here. So Tom, I'm going to let you kick us off because the Pentagon is in the headlines again this week.

We have fallout continuing around Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's fondness for sharing sensitive intel on signal group chats. Um, we also have news now that several high level advisors at the Pentagon have departed. What is the climate like there? Uh, well, Mary Louise, let me share what a former Pentagon official who served in Trump's first term characterized what we're seeing. He called it, quote, the height of dysfunction. So you have the top civilian officials who Hegsath himself brought in, fired or removed and

you have the ongoing problem of classified information being shared with two groups on signal, one including his wife. It's being investigated by the Pentagon Inspector General and I'm told Hegsath is slow in putting out releases on decisions that have been made like keeping US troops in Northeast Syria. That was approved by the White House, but it sat on his desk for two weeks. Also, there's no word on some upcoming high-level appointments, like who will take over

for the top officer at Central Command, General Eric Herrilla, who leaves this summer. That should have been announced some time ago. So dysfunction, delays, and a sense of unease among the senior ranks because of the abrupt firings of senior officers with no reason given. Michelle Kellerman, how does that line up with what you are tracking at the State Department, which I will note is also in the news this week. We have news of a massive reorganization, including a 15%, 1, 5%

personnel reduction. Yeah, I mean, this is part of Secretary of State Marco Rubio's reorganization plan. But, you know, people were a little bit relieved by it because actually some of the proposals that have been floating around would do a lot more to gut the State Department and the professional foreign service. Some of that could still happen. You know, I'm hearing about the possibility of cutting two dozen or more overseas posts, for instance. But this was reorganizing with a particular focus on offices that deal with human rights and

democracy, things like that. Rubio says that the functions that are required by U.S. law will continue, but he's moved some of them around in his organizational chart, and he's put one of the offices under the control of the Coordinator for Foreign Assistance, which is currently run by someone connected to DOJ. Selena, what about at the country's many health agencies, which as you have been reporting for weeks now are already well into significant job cuts. How are things looking? Yeah, no size of relief over at the health agencies.

Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. announced what he called an overhaul of HHS in late March and sent out reduction in force notices to about 10,000 staff members on April 1. And along with early retirements and other voluntary options, that's a cut of about 25% to HHS staff. And I've been talking to a lot of health agency employees, FDA scientists, senior leaders, policy staff, and the picture that I'm getting is that the full force of the overhaul hasn't

been felt yet. The staff that's left has been working to basically hold up a dam, keep experiments running and money flowing to programs like Meals on Wheels and community clinics, but they don't know how long they can keep doing that. And some staff that will be fired have been told not to go on leave, but to keep working until their jobs officially end

on June 2nd. And when that happens, staff say they expect to see the effects really hit the public all over the country in a big way. Well, let me ask you that the why question. Why is Secretary Kennedy doing this? What does he say he's actually trying to accomplish? Well, he says the country's population is not healthy. Life expectancy is lower than in pure countries, which is true. He says that the science that these agencies have been doing hasn't been good quality and hasn't done enough to address those problems. You know, he's very concerned about the food supply, chronic diseases, but the confusing thing is that many of these cuts

seem to work at cross purposes to those goals, like they cut CDC teams that worked on chronic diseases, for example. And so there's a lot of criticism from within HHS, but also health experts beyond that the cuts were done too fast and haphazardly. I did put in a request this week to talk to Kennedy about his vision for HHS and these cuts, and I did not receive response. Well, Michelle Kellerman, I'll put a similar question to you. Has Secretary of State Rubio laid out what he is trying to achieve with US foreign policy with all of these changes at the department he now runs? Yeah, I mean he came in talking

about how he wants to make this building the center of foreign policy again and talking about respecting the work that federal workers do. But you know since that opening speech he defended the way the Trump administration dismantled the lead US aid agency. He dismantled the group that's been focused on Chinese and Russian propaganda, accusing them without evidence of silencing American conservatives. And he's been a key figure in the negotiations with El Salvador to jail alleged gang members, and he's been actively revoking visas of international students. You know, these are really highly charged political issues here at home, and it's not a comfortable place for diplomats who

pride themselves on being nonpartisan. Tom Bowman, back to the Pentagon. We know that Secretary Hegsef, he has laid out what he says he wants to do. He says the president wants to, quote, restore the warrior ethos of our military. Do we know what that means? Are we seeing a reshaping of the armed forces into more of a warrior ethos? Well, Mayor Lewis, I don't think there's really any reshaping of the armed forces. Hegseth has signed off on increased physical standards for all troops in separately tougher standards for those in ground combat positions. That's something he pushed for years as a Fox News personality. He claimed that standards have been lowered so women can get into these combat jobs like infantry,

but the Army denies any standards have been lowered. He also claims that there's an increase in recruiting because of Trump, but the Army for more than a year has seen a rise in recruits because of reforms they've put in place. You know, Hegseth talks about bringing back a warrior ethos, but I've been going out with soldiers and marines for two decades in combat zones. That warrior ethos never left. That is NPR's Tom Bowman, Michelle Kellerman, and Selena Simmons-Duffin. Thanks to you all for your reporting. You're welcome.

Thank you. Thank you. At the top of this episode, you heard reporting on the Coal Workers Health Surveillance Program from Yuki Noguchi. This episode was produced by Alejandra Marquez-Hanse and Connor Donovan. It was edited by Patrick Chiranwadananen. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. Before we go, a quick thank you to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the show.

Your contribution makes it possible for NPR journalists all around the world to do our jobs. Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors, and you can learn more at plus.npr.org. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. On Trump's terms, we have followed the first hundred days of this administration. Tariffs very strongly work. Trade war.

Get ready. Elon Musk and Doge. We will make mistakes. Deportations. Litigation. I don't know who the judge is. He's radical left. Those first hundred days are coming to a close, but the pace of the news will likely continue.

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