Consider This from NPR - Federal workers reaffirming loyalty to the Constitution, not politics

Episode Date: October 4, 2025

Federal workers across the United States are feeling the impact of the government shutdown. This comes after months of turmoil for federal workers as agencies have slashed their workforces as part of the Trump administration's large-scale government job cuts.NPR's Andrea Hsu talks to Andrew Limbong about her reporting on the federal workforce and the challenge of finding people willing to talk about their experiences. For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Email us at [e-mail] episode was produced by Kira Wakeam and Avery Keatley. It was edited by Adam Raney. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

On Monday, two days before the government shut down, a dozen or so current and former federal workers held a press conference near the Capitol building in Washington, D.C., and they repeated the same oath they took when they started their jobs. I, Ashley Wilder Smith, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States. They were there protesting against President Trump's threats to use the shutdown as an excuse to lay off more federal employees. Against all enemies, foreign and domestic. NPR's labor and workplace correspondent, Andrew Shue, has been reporting on federal workers all year and says many of them mentioned this oath to her when they share concerns about what this administration is doing. You know, we take an oath to uphold the Constitution. We're not taking an oath to anyone president.

We're here to serve all the American people. It's been a tough year for federal employees. First, there was that fork in the road email buyout offer, and then tens of thousands of probationary federal employees were fired. And then more mass layoffs, funding cuts for projects and programs President Trump didn't support. And now Trump is telling Democrats, the shutdown is an unprecedented opportunity to carry out even more layoffs of federal employees. As a federal worker, I am here to tell you that every awful,

thing that would happen in a shutdown, shuddering programs that Americans rely on, damaging our economy, firing federal workers, all of this is already happening. That's Jenna Norton currently furloughed. She works at the National Institutes of Health, where she oversees research into kidney disease. Andrea says it's hard to get federal employees to talk to her right now, especially on the record, but it is important for her to always try. I think it really helps to have a name, to know that this is a real person. Consider this. With many federal workers fearful of retaliation, it's hard to get them to talk to the press right now.

Coming up, NPR's Andrew's shoe tells us why. From NPR, I'm Andrew Limbaugh. It's Consider This from NPR. For this week's reporter's notebook, I wanted to talk to Andrea about covering the federal workforce in the middle of President Trump's efforts to reshape the federal government. And Andrea was telling me how her job completely changed on January 20th, the day President Trump began his second term. Before this year, I was and still am the Labor and Workplace correspondent for the business

desk here at NPR, but I really had not reported at all on the federal workforce, or virtually at all. I had done a couple stories, I guess, during the presidential campaign. and after the election, and I had done one story about telework in the government, but really most of my reporting was about, you know, auto workers and dock workers and baristas at Starbucks and work, you know, work from home trends and the four-day work week and things like that. And I just had never covered the federal workforce before. But of course, you know, after starting on January 20th, President Trump just had all these changes that he wanted to bring to the federal workforce. And a lot of this was actually outlined in Project 2025. So his administration came in very

ready to implement these dramatic changes. And, you know, we have great colleagues on the Washington desk, but just not enough people to cover all these different agencies. And I have to say, like, I was talking to a federal worker today. And I said, I'm kind of grateful to have had this assignment this year because I've learned so much more about what our government does and what the people who work for the government do day in and day out. I remember everything was moving very fast. How did you sort of start finding your way in the water there? It was like a crash course in, you know, who works for the federal government? What are all these different agencies? There were agencies I'd never heard of, like the Merit Systems Protection

Board that were suddenly, you know, really important to the story. So it really was like a very steep learning curve those first few weeks, couple months. And, you know, we did have a team of people at NPR. We were all pitching in. We were all hearing things from different people, sharing information, you know, trying our best to figure out what was going on because there was some little official information coming out of the administration. Yeah. I mean, even little me as a culture reporter, I was, you know, doing stuff on federal workers. And the thing I kept running into was how hard it was to get people to speak on the record, to have their voice on the air. I mean, and with good reasons, right, these are people who their livelihoods are in limbo, right?

And they didn't want to, like, mess that up and da-da-da-da. How did you sort of navigate that fear in your sources? Yeah. I mean, it was a real fear and it continues to be a real fear now. So we did end up granting a lot of people anonymity, you know, just use. their first initial or their middle name or, you know, something like that. But I did find that the stories where I could name people, they just resonated more with our audience. I think it really helps to, you know, have a name, to know that this is a real person. You know, in a digital

story on our website, it helps to have a photo of the person. I just think it really helps our audience connect with them. And I will say there were not a lot, but a few, you know, a handful of current federal employees who were willing to go on the record. And, you know, this started with these probationary workers who were fired en masse. You know, probationary workers are typically those who are in their first or second year on the job. They're still like serving out their probationary periods. And, you know, in February, we were just flooded with these messages of people saying, I just got fired. They told me it was because of my performance, but I just had a great performance review. And a couple of the people who were willing to speak out

were veterans, military veterans. And part of me thought, you know, these are people who've been through a lot. They have stepped up to serve the country. They've served the country for many years, some of them. And they have a real strong sense of what's right and wrong. And they knew their firings were wrong. And they were willing to talk about it on tape, you know, with their photo on our website. So I, you know, to this day, I'm grateful that some people are willing to speak about, you know, what has happened to them. While I'm also grateful for all the people who've reached out and who aren't, you know, who aren't comfortable doing that. Yeah, like those voices help give, I think, like a support system, right, to the people, you know,

whose stories are on the record, sort of help back up everything that they're saying. Was there any like trust building that you had to do with some of your sources like hey i'm legit i'm you know this is where i'm coming from i'm not like i'm not your stenographer but here i'm coming from a good faith place yes and i think it helped the more stories we wrote the more people saw our stories people were reaching out because in our stories we would put our signal IDs and say you know you can reach out to us if you want to share information um you know oftentimes people did want to know who I was. And I, you know, in order to grant somebody anonymity, we had to confirm, verify ourselves that they were who they said they were, that they are a federal

worker, that they do work for this or that agency. And we would sometimes ask people to show us like a government ID or like a email or did they have a LinkedIn page. Did they, you know, was there a way that we could verify? And I had several asked me, like, can I see your ID? Can I make sure you're a real person? Yeah. And yeah. And I thought, okay, that's fair. So I imagine by being around all these people, you got a sort of firsthand look at the culture of fear that these workers are living under, right? People are rightfully concerned that speaking out could make them targets, not just of this administration of, you know, the political appointees who might be overseeing their departments, but also sort of in the public sphere. Like I think people nowadays worry that, you know, if they're seen, if you can Google their name, you can find them on the internet. speaking to NPR, being critical of this administration somehow, that they will be targeted.

I think there's a real fear of that right now. Andrew, you know, I mean, like 30 years ago, I can't believe it was actually almost 30 years ago, I started my journalism career in China. I worked as a researcher in the BBC Bureau in Beijing for a couple of years in the late 90s. And, you know, people there were not that excited to talk to a foreign media outlet. the average citizen was not really willing to share their, you know, their personal opinions with you. And so when I came back to the U.S. and I got my job at NPR in 2002, I was just amazed at how, you know, almost easy it was to get great interviews because, you know, Americans are kind of hams. Like they like to talk. They like to share their ideas. I mean, of course not everyone, but there are a lot of people like, you know, we'd have gone.

out and interview people or just approach people on the street. And I was just, I'm always amazed at how much people are willing to share. And I feel like that has changed. Obviously, people who are worried about their careers, they're worried about their livelihoods. They don't want to, they don't want to talk. But I think that people are generally fearful of the climate that we're in now. Andrew Shoeh covers the federal workforce for NPR. Andrea, thank you so much. Hey, Andrew, thanks so much for talking about it. This episode was produced by Kira Joaquim and was edited by Adam Rainey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.

It's considered this from NPR. I'm Andrew Limbaung.