Consider This from NPR - German And American Tanks Are Headed for Ukraine

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

For months, Ukraine pressed western allies for state-of-the-art tanks. For months, Germany and the U.S. resisted. That changed Wednesday.Both countries have now promised to send tanks to Ukraine. The German-made Leopard II and American-made Abrams tanks are considered the best in the world.NPR's Rob Schmitz in Berlin and Greg Myre in Washington explain how Ukraine's allies changed their minds.In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University is committed to moving the world forward, working to tackle some of society's biggest challenges. Nine campuses, one purpose. Creating tomorrow, today. More at iu.edu. The Twitter account for the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense has, you know, the usual stuff that you would expect. Talleys of Russian casualties, announcements from top officials, flattering photos of soldiers looking noble on the front lines. But, you know, this month, it also featured this video. The caption reads, some Western countries are still nervous about supplying tanks to Ukraine. We got this. What follows is a faux retro 70s style car commercial featuring Germany's Leopard 2 tank.

And to ease any concerns about sending tanks, the commercial dubs the Leopard a luxury executive sedan. Isn't it time you let her hunt, it asks? Release the Leopards. And there's another one with cowboys and wild horses encouraging the U.S. to send its Abrams tanks. Only the commercial calls them recreational utility vehicles. For months, Ukraine has been pushing its Western allies to supply it with advanced combat tanks in cheeky videos on Twitter and in emotional speeches, like this one from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to a meeting of defense ministers last week.

I can thank you hundreds of times, and it will be absolutely just and fair given all that we have already done. But hundreds of thank you are not hundreds of thanks. And for as many months, Germany and the U.S. have resisted. Germany in particular did not want to take a step that could be seen as an escalation and risk pulling Germany into a direct conflict with Russia. But then, on Wednesday, Zelensky's birthday, in fact, Germany's prime minister did release the leopards.

And then came this U.S. announcement. Today, I'm announcing that the United States will be sending 31 Abram tanks to Ukraine. President Biden spoke at the White House. Ukrainians are fighting an age-old battle against aggression and domination. It's a battle Americans have fought proudly time and again. And it's a battle we're going to make sure the Ukrainians are well equipped to fight as well. Consider this. Ukraine will get the state-of-the-art Western tanks it has been desperately seeking. We'll hear about what that could mean for the war and for what comes next. From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang.

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It's Consider This from NPR. So after months of hesitation on sending tanks, what changed the calculation for Germany and the U.S.? Well, to get answers, my colleague Mary Louise Kelly spoke with NPR correspondents in both capitals, Rob Schmitz in Berlin and Greg Myrie in Washington. Greg, you start. The U.S. had been adamant that it would not be sending these Abrams tanks to date a change tack. Do we know why? Well, I think there's both a military reason and a political reason. On the military front, the U.S. has acknowledged that Ukraine needs tanks, but it kept saying the Abrams, which is the main U.S. tank, just wasn't a good fit. It's considered the world's best, but also the most sophisticated. It needs lots of training and maintenance.

It also uses jet fuel, not the usual diesel fuel that other tanks use, So it wasn't seen as a great short-term option, which leads us to the political reason. Germany also has these excellent tanks that could get to Ukraine more quickly, but Germany had been reluctant to get out in front on sending tanks. So President Biden's announcement gave Germany some political cover, and Biden went out of his way to praise the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. Do we know how long it's going to take to get these tanks over there? No, we don't, but a senior administration official said it would be months, not weeks. We're talking about 31 of the Abrams tanks. That's one Ukrainian tank battalion. The U.S. will have to train the

Ukrainians, who've proven to be very fast learners on other weapon systems. But these are tanks that are not already in service. The U.S. is going to go through the procurement process, which can be a military synonym for do everything in slow motion. Now, one senior U.S. official tried to put the best face on this. He said the German tanks represent a near-term commitment. The U.S. tanks represent a long-term commitment. And Rob Schmitz, jump in here, because as Greg nodded to, Germany has also been reluctant to send tanks. What exactly did they announce today? And did they explain why they appear to have changed their minds? He didn't go into specifics,

but he spoke today at the Bundestag, which is Germany's parliament, as part of his regular question and answer session. And he said that he decided to do this after what he called intensive consultations with Germany's allies and partners, including the United States. And he hinted that waiting to take this action until the U.S. was ready to also send tanks was an important necessity. Germany did not want to be alone in sending tanks to Ukraine. Many Germans are scared that doing that would have risked pulling Germany into a broader conflict. And here's some tape of Schultz addressing those fears. And Mary Louise, he's saying here that many German citizens

are worried about sending Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, given the power of these weapons, and that he would like to say to his citizens, trust me and trust the federal government. He said, because Germany acted in cooperation with its international partners, it has made sure the support is possible without risking that Germany would be pulled directly into this conflict. He also made it clear that Germany would not enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine and that it wouldn't send ground troops in any situation. So these tanks appear to be as far as Olaf Scholz is willing to go. I want to step back for a minute and I'll throw this one to you, Greg.

Why are tanks so critical for Ukraine right now? Well, Ukraine has been outgunned by Russia on almost every front in this war and tanks are a powerful example of that. Russia has more tanks. The Ukrainians have had to rely on these aging Soviet-era tanks. Now, Ukraine is widely expected to carry out offensives pretty soon, and that's where tanks do become quite critical when an army is trying to move forward on the ground. We should stress that a lot of military analysts say that tanks are just one component, though a key one, in what the U.S. calls combined arms. And they say the Ukrainians need many things, effective ground troops,

light armored vehicles, artillery, air power, and they very much need tanks. One more question from the European perspective, because, Rob, I am wondering if this might open the floodgates for others. It's not just Germany among European countries that has tanks, not just Germany that has Leopard tanks. That's right. German weapons manufacturers export different models of Leopard tanks all throughout Europe. And so we've got dozens upon dozens of these in countries all over Europe. And today, also, Germany announced that their partner countries who have these tanks can also send those tanks to Ukraine if they want to. So Poland, obviously, has been asking to do this for a while, as have many other European countries. So in the following

weeks, we'll likely see the first deliveries of what could be dozens of some of the most state-of-the-art tanks being handed over to Ukraine's military. And Mary-Louise, let me just pick up on what Rob was saying, that we've seen this very intense focus on tanks recently. In some ways, it's overshadowed some other key developments. Ukraine has received more pledges, more heavy weapons in the past month than at any time since the war began. The U.S. and others have promised Patriots and other air defense systems to guard against Russian missiles. We've seen hundreds of armored vehicles that have been pledged, and now the tanks.

Now, all of this sends a clear signal that the U.S. and NATO remain united, which many had questioned that that would happen, and that they're stepping up support for Ukraine. In contrast, we've been hearing that Russia is turning to Iran and North Korea for weapons that are far less than cutting edge. Rob, just one more to you before I let you go. I keep thinking about this headline, German tanks set to roll across Europe towards a war. I mean, it's enough for any student of the wars of the past century to send just the tiniest chill down your spine. How is the conversation unfolding where you are in Berlin? Yeah, that's right. And I think it's worth remembering that Germany's history as a military aggressor in two world wars makes a decision like this to send

war machines back into battle, a really difficult and sensitive one for Germans. And I think Germany's more recent history of decades worth of Soviet rule and being in the middle of the Cold War also plays into this specific conflict. There's a residual pacifist sentiment from the Cold War here in Germany. And there's also a shared history between Germany and Russia from that era. And the complexities of that have slowly percolated for many Germans as this war has dragged on. We've seen a shift in recent weeks of German public opinion towards Ukraine and against Russia. And I think it's a slowly evolving transition that we're witnessing here in Germany. That was my colleague Mary Louise Kelly talking with NPR's Rob Schmitz and Greg Myrie.

There is another question looming over this announcement. How will Russia react? Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters that the new tanks would, quote, burn just like all the others. Well, could the tank shipments prompt some sort of retaliation? Mary Louise Kelly asked White House National Security Council spokesman John Kirby about that. President Biden went out of his way not to threaten Russia today. He stressed this is about helping Ukraine defend its own territory.

He said it's not an offensive threat to Russia. There is no offensive threat to Russia. Can you elaborate on the messaging going on there? We have been from the very beginning not interested in having this war in Ukraine escalate to make it what Putin claims it is, a war of U.S. versus Russia. It's not. And we don't want to see the war escalate to that level. That wouldn't be good for us. Russia certainly wouldn't be good for Ukraine. So the president's comments today were entirely consistent with how he has talked about this war from the very beginning. And the Russian propaganda today, you know, they're out there saying that these tanks are an escalation and that they're an offensive threat. And the president wanted to get ahead of that and make it clear that they're not.

Now, look, Mary Louise, they are absolutely a threat to Russian forces inside Ukraine. They need to know that. They need to understand that. These are very capable tanks. That's my last question. In the few seconds we have left, how big a game changer does the White House expect these U.S. tanks to be? What we do think will be a significant enhanced capability for Ukraine is all the armored capability. You've got to keep it in context of everything that's being given to Ukraine here for their combined arms operations.

And the tanks are a part of that. They are significant. They will have a significant impact. And that's why, quite frankly, we gave them the equivalent of one Ukrainian battalion so that it wasn't some symbolic gesture. It was actually have operational impact. Again, my colleague Mary Louise Kelly speaking with National Security Council spokesman John Kirby. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Elsa Chang. This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University performs breakthrough research every year, making discoveries that improve human health, combat climate change, and move society forward. More at iu.edu forward.