Consider This from NPR - How a punishing two years shaped Pope Francis

Episode Date: April 26, 2025

Long before he was elected to run the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis was essentially exiled from his Argentinian Jesuit order. Francis often referred to this two-year period, which happened when he was in his 50s, as a "dark night" and a "crisis" in his life.For our weekly Reporter's Notebook series, we talk with NPR religion editor Daniel Burke about what he learned by digging into this little known period of Francis' life that shaped him and his papacy.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

The man remembered today at a funeral in St. Peter's Square, Pope Francis, was once very different. There was a period of time decades ago when he was viewed as arrogant, aloof, as someone who caused so much discord that he was essentially exiled from the Argentinian Jesuit order he had once led. Francis often referred to this two-year window, which happened when he was in his 50s, as a dark night and a crisis in his life. Consider this. Pope Francis' two years on the periphery impacted him deeply and very likely changed the course of the Church. For today's Reporter's Notebook, we talk with NPR religion editor Daniel Burke about what

he learned by digging into this little-known period of Francis' life that shaped him and his papacy. From NPR, I'm Scott Detro. It's Consider This from NPR. During the first few years of Pope Francis' papacy, reporter Daniel Burke realized something strange. There was a two-year gap in the resume of Pope Francis. Burke is now NPR's religion editor.

I asked him what it was about this gap that made him want to spend a lot of time researching and reporting on it. Burke Hicks, NPR's religion editor Shortly after he was elected pope in 2013, there were timelines of his life produced by the Catholic Church. And there was this gap, as you said, from 1990 to 1992 in which he was essentially doing nothing. to 1992 in which he was essentially doing nothing, a very menial job at a parish in the city of Cordoba, far from his home city. And I thought, well, that's interesting.

He goes from being a really powerful Jesuit to doing nothing. And then he's a powerful archbishop. What is going on here? Why was he sent to this place? What did he do here? And so I went with kind of an open mind. The thing that I discovered that kept me going is the fact that he won't talk about it. And that's when I thought, oh, wow, there must be something really here that is still

emotionally resonant for him. And he never did at any point in his papacy. He had that memoir come out and he just glancingly referenced it in that. One line, he just calls it a dark night. And so yeah, I was looking to that memoir to try to get some more insights to this period of his life because it's still somewhat of a mystery to me, to be honest. But he even friends that it was like too painful for him to talk about. It was still like an open wound until the end of his life. He wrote that memoir and he's 87, right? Yeah. And it must've been hard to report then though, given that you can't call him up and

say, hey, tell me about this. Right, exactly. I wrote him a letter, but he did not answer, of course, right? But his friends who, again, said he didn't talk about it, but still talked to him during this period and saw him, the story began to come together of what he was like at this time of his life, why he was sent away for this period, because he was creating division among the Jesuits. He had this view that priests should, he still said this as Pope,

should smell like their sheep, which means like be in touch with the people, with the flock. In Argentina, he meant that literally. He wanted Jesuits to work on farms, to help feed poor people, to milk the cows, to harvest the crops. And there were Jesuits in Argentina who didn't want to do that at all. They were intellectual. They wanted to spend their time teaching. And so there was

basically split into two camps, the Pope Francis camp and the other camp. And because of those divisions, he was sent away 500 miles away from his birth city, Buenos Aires. And when he's there, as I said, he has no real job. He is supposed to kind of finish his doctoral dissertation, but like a lot of PhD students is not so interested in that. Inspiration's fire has dimmed a little bit, so he spends a lot of time praying, spends a lot of time reading, writing some essays.

But he refers to it as a time of purification and as a dark night. Is it fair to say, based on the reporting you did, that the person who emerges from this period of time is different from the person who came into it? Without a doubt. The people closest to him, and I managed to get in touch with Jesuits who were as close to him as friends can be, say that this was a different guy. The Jesuits take a vow of obedience, right?

And it's one thing, obedience, that vow, is one thing when you're on the top. When you're on the bottom and you're getting sent away from your community to this menial job, it's quite a different thing. The man who emerged was not as authoritarian. and you're getting sent away from your community to this menial job. It's quite a different thing. The man who emerged was not as authoritarian. He's much more consulting with other people.

He's much more willing to listen to other people and to compromise. So they said they noticed a discernible change when he comes out of this. He is in some ways freer, but also much more chill about living with other people and being in community with other people. How did learning all of this information

and putting the story together and better understanding this period of time that, again, he never wanted to talk about, how did that help you better understand the papacy going forward, the person going forward that you were covering? Yeah, so he's got this amazing quote that I found that he told the politician who, um, basically was voted out of office.

And what he said to this politician is you have to live your exile and you will come back kinder and more merciful and be prepared to serve your people. And when I saw that quote, I thought, Oh, that has the ring of real experience behind it. Right. So he is clear and was clear throughout

his papacy that he was fallible. He said that he had made mistakes and I think he had a keen sense from this period of what it's like to be fallible, of what it's like to be seen as an outcast, someone who's not wanted by the church or the community. And so he had a heart for those kind of people. If you see him talking to people on the margins, he's always welcoming them into the church. He had this evocative phrase that he wanted it to be a field hospital and not a fortress. And so when I see him talking about mercy so much for all manner of sinners, it's hard for me not to think of this period in his life when he was cast out because of his perceived sins. I think what's also interesting, kind of veering away from the story in itself,

is that you see a different person come out of this experience than who went into it. You also saw a different person emerge from the conclave than the cardinal who went into it, right? Like I think it is fair to say that Pope Francis was very different in a lot of ways than Cardinal Bergoglio. And as we all prepare to see a new person step out on the balcony and immediately Google their life history, how much of an open mind do you think people should keep in terms of how different somebody can be when they're suddenly in a new position of power,

like a papacy? That's a great question, because you talk to people in Argentina who knew him, and even in Buenos Aires, after this period, right? He was kind of known as a sourpuss. In the period of Cordoba that I wrote about, when he heard confessions, Catholics did not want to go to him. He was known as being strict.

They called him Father Sour Face. And so they actually avoided him. Imagine that known as being strict. They called him Father Sour Face. And so they actually avoided him. Imagine that, avoiding the future pope, just a parish in Argentina. Not that guy. Exactly. And then you see this pope emerge, St. Peter's Basilica smiling, kissing babies, so happy. Even his sister said the office changed the man. He seems freer, he seems happier, he smiles more. So I think Catholics talk a lot about the Holy Spirit. And there's some Catholics who say that his personality changes are only explainable in that kind of supernatural way, that he was so

different when he became pope, so joyful. That was really a change. I'm wondering how you as a person were affected by this assignment and what, if any lessons you drew out of it about, about how sometimes your life can take a, take a wrong turn in terms of how you think it should go. Yeah. I think what's striking about this moment in the Pope's life, he was in his fifties, right? And he was a rising star in the Pope's life. He was in his 50s, right? And he was a rising star in the Jesuit order. And then he sent down to this little parish and has to kind of reckon

with that. Like, what is my life now? What does it mean to me? He kind of had his purpose taken away from him. And so, you know, I'm approaching that age. And I think about that a lot. I think a lot about both my own aspirations, but like the world doesn't care about my aspirations, right? Like there's going to be something that happens regardless. And I think what I learned from him and what I learned from this period is so much is dependent on how you handle those situations, right? Like he could have gone into this period and really just moped and left the Jesuit order

or left the church and not really used it in the way he did, which was to make himself a better person at the end of the day. And I think there's some lessons in that for all of us, maybe. That is NPR religion editor Daniel Burke. Thank you so much. Thank you, Scott. This episode was produced by Vincent Accovino

and edited by Adam Rainey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detro. Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon Prime members can listen to Consider This sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get Consider This Plus at plus.npr.org.

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