Consider This from NPR - How do you select an impartial jury when your client is famous?
Episode Date: April 14, 2024On Monday, former President Donald Trump will enter a Manhattan courtroom for his first criminal trial. But before a verdict can be rendered a jury must be selected. And for Trump's legal team that is... going to be a challenge. A small number of attorneys have faced a similar challenge — how do you select an impartial jury when your client is famous? Host Scott Detrow speaks with attorney Camille Vasquez for insight into the art of jury selection in such a case. She represented Johnny Depp in his defamation suit against his ex-wife Amber Heard. For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at considerthis@npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
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We the jury find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime.
We the jury in the above entitled matter, as to count one, find the defendant guilty.
As to the charge of first degree murder, we the jury find the defendant not guilty.
Those are the verdicts from the O.J. Simpson, Derek Chauvin, and Casey Anthony murder trials.
All three cases, in different ways, captivated the country.
Millions of people watched the trials unfold,
and millions tuned in as a jury
of the defendant's peers decided their fate. Tomorrow marks the beginning of another case
that is sure to grab the nation's attention, and another trial where the idea of a jury of peers
can be hard to get your head around because the defendant is one of the most famous people in the
world, former President Donald Trump. Trump is charged with 34 felony
counts of falsifying records related to checks used to pay adult film star Stormy Daniels.
But before we can hear opening arguments, lawyers for both sides get to select the jury.
You're trying to get rid of the jurors who will ruin your case and will not be receptive to your
arguments. That's jury expert Adam Schlahead.
He's a professor at Fordham Law School.
On Monday, hundreds of New Yorkers will file into a Manhattan courtroom.
They'll fill out a questionnaire that asks typical questions like, what do you do for
a living?
What's your educational background?
And they'll answer more case-specific questions like, have you volunteered for the Trump campaign?
Have you attended a Trump
rally? Or have you attended an anti-Trump rally or ever volunteered for an anti-Trump group?
But some questions are off the table. The judge has not allowed those explicit questions about
people's political views. But he also acknowledges that one's political views can be pretty easily gleaned from whether you listen
to this radio station or that radio station, watch MSNBC or Fox News. Each side does get 10
preemptory challenges that can strike potential jurors from the list. And the judge can also
strike any juror he feels wouldn't be a good fit. But one thing that may surprise you about the
process? As long as you can be fair and you can assure the court that you can be fair, liking or not liking Donald Trump does not disqualify you
from being on this jury. And that's unusual. In a typical case, if a potential juror voices a
negative opinion about the defendant, they'd be dismissed. But in this case, because everybody
knows the defendant and everybody has an opinion about the defendant and
everyone's heard the defendant speak, that in and of itself is not a disqualification because then
you'd be left with nobody. And that's maybe the biggest challenge facing Trump's legal team.
I think there's a real and legitimate fear that someone will say, I can be totally fair. I have
no strong feelings about Donald Trump. You're really looking for the people who may be lying and undercover trying to convict your client. Consider this. How do you approach
a trial by jury when your client is famous and the media is closely watching every move of the case?
Few lawyers have been in that position. When we come back, we'll speak to one who was.
From NPR, I'm Scott Detrow.
It's Consider This from NPR. Tomorrow, former President Donald Trump's legal team faces a
major challenge,
selecting a jury they hope will acquit their client. And that won't be an easy task because Trump is arguably one of the most famous men in the world. Attorney Camille Vasquez has been in
a somewhat similar position. In 2022, she represented actor Johnny Depp in a defamation
case he brought against his ex-wife, Amber Heard.
It does need to be said that Johnny Depp's case and Donald Trump's cases are very, very different.
One of the many key distinctions is that Trump's is a criminal trial and Depp's was a civil trial.
These are both cases centering around extremely famous men.
There's a lot of media attention in both of them.
And amid all of that, you have to select an impartial jury.
So I started by asking Vasquez how she and her team approached jury selection for the Depp case, given that situation. So we went about it by first and foremost hiring a jury consultant.
And I think that was instrumental in helping us narrow the perfect juror that we were looking for and the ones that we really didn't want on our jury,
and helping us identify some of the characteristics that each of those jurors,
potential jurors, would exhibit. Can you just tell us a little more about what a juror consultant
does? Is this coming up with a hypothetical ideal juror, or is this somebody who's with you looking
at the jury pool and trying to get a sense of what these jurors are like as
they come through? They can do both jobs. In our case, she was not only present while we were
selecting the jury, but she also did a lot of research and strategized with us about the type
of jurors that we were looking for, the ones that we were not looking for. Can you tell us just a
general sense of the types that you were looking for in. Can you tell us just a general sense of the types that
you were looking for in your particular case? The analogy I like to use is like the perfect dinner
guests. So you're going to have different people, you're going to have someone that's going to be
the leader, and you're going to have people that are followers, and you need to have the right
balance of that. So the leaders that we were looking for were going to be open-minded.
They weren't going to know much about the story between our client and Ms. Hurd. They obviously
would have known who Johnny Depp was, but we weren't necessarily looking for big fans of Johnny
Depp. And we knew that those type of jurors were going to be struck by the other side.
So we were just looking for people that were open-minded, but exhibited leadership capabilities,
and that were intelligent enough to be able to understand defamation law explained to them.
That is a lot of different characteristics that you're looking for.
It is.
So then you get to the selection process.
You have this big room full of potential jurors. Everyone fills out a questionnaire.
They're brought before the judge and lawyers to answer questions about that questionnaire.
How do you get all of those characteristics from the information you have in front of you?
So we pre-identified certain people in the pool, but you're right. It's a big room of over 100 people.
And it is completely luck of the draw who you're going to draw. So the first 16 get filled into the
jury box. And then the process starts where you have questions. In our case, for example, in
Virginia, we had pre-screened questions the judge had approved each side could ask.
And you really shouldn't deviate too far from those questions because those had been approved, blessed by the court.
And then it's my job as the lawyer for Mr. Depp
to be able to establish a rapport with the individual potential jurors.
And it's really the first impression that they're going to get
of you,
of your client and the case. So it's about establishing rapport and getting them to open
up because it's an uncomfortable process where you have everyone looking at you and you have
people taking notes. So for the jury, it's really uncomfortable and awkward. And so you want to get them to open up. You want them to talk
about things that will show you the characteristics that we're looking for. Are they more of a leader?
Are they less of a leader? Are they more of a follower? Do they know a lot about the case?
Do they really want to be on this jury? Are they trying to hide that? Or do they want nothing to do
with this and they're just desperately trying to get out of jury duty? Those are all the things that we try to identify by building a rapport.
And how much of that then on your end and your team's end is that gut feeling versus hard data that you're using to assess this is somebody we want, this is somebody we want to
strike? I think it's really a bit of both. You have to trust your gut. And I think good trial
lawyers have great guts that they trust because you have to be able to pivot. A lot of it is
not like gambling, but you're looking at the potential jury in front of you, and you're also looking at who's coming up next, who's on the bench that may fill in.
And is that person potentially worse for you than the people that you have in front of you?
I remember before we said, okay, yes, we're good with these, I think it was 12 people, five were going to be alternates. I just remember sitting with my jury consultant
and looking at the list
and looking at the people that potentially were coming up
and it was such a random draw.
It was a mix of people that,
some of which we were sure about
and others that we really didn't know.
We didn't know enough about them or they hadn't opened up enough,
but the people that were on the bench we were concerned about.
And so we said, yes, we're going to go with this jury.
I'm trying to understand because I think bias going into the case,
preformed opinions going into the case,
is going to be pretty central to a Donald Trump jury. I think it's fair to say. What were the kind of
questions that you asked? And what were the kind of things you were looking for to get a sense
in your case of, is this a juror who knows a lot about Johnny Depp? Is this a juror who knows a
lot about the backstory here? Open-ended questions. It was getting them to talk because we
knew if they spoke and they gave us details that really only diehard fans would know or people that
really had studied the case, then we would have an indication as to whether or not this person was
somebody that was following closely or not. So a lot of open-ended questions.
What do you know about Johnny Depp?
What do you know about legal issues
that he's been facing for the last five or six years at that point?
How many of his movies have you seen?
Would you consider yourself a fan?
It was those type of questions to try to get them to open up.
Same, by the way, on the other side,
because we were also dealing with
a celebrity on the other side. So same questions for Amber Heard to understand how much they knew
about her. If you were working on the Trump defense team, how much would you focus on politics
versus other broader factors? I probably would focus on politics. I wouldn't say it's the only thing I would focus on,
but I think because of who he is, the former president, the Republican nominee, it's an
important factor that you have to know. And you are in a liberal state in New York. So obviously,
you're going to assume that a lot of the political leanings of the potential jurors
are going to be more liberal. I think you have to understand though, whether or not
their political leanings are going to affect their ability to listen to evidence
in an impartial way and really be open-minded. So if I was on the Trump defense team, that would be critical to our
analysis. How often are you and other lawyers trying to get a sense of how a trial is playing
with a jury as it goes on? What are you looking for day-to-day in the trial in terms of, is this
working? Are we making our case? Are we struggling? I mean, it's an everyday, every moment process.
As trial lawyers, even if it's not me, myself, that's looking at the jury, we always have
somebody that's looking at the jury, trying to see what's affecting them and in what manner
it's affecting them.
It's crucially important to try to understand. And there was a
moment during my cross-examination in Miss Heard where I had two jurors actually physically turn
away from her and just lean their bodies towards me. And I thought to myself, I had them in that
moment. And as a trial lawyer during cross-examination, you want that.
You want the jury paying attention to your questions
because you are telling the story through your questions during cross-examination.
You don't want them paying attention to the witness and hanging off every word.
The questions are really what's important during a cross-examination.
The opposite of that is during a direct examination,
you want the jury positioned towards the witness. You want them listening to the responses. The
questions are really there just to guide the story and to guide the witness, but it's the
witness's answers that matter. So when Mr. Depp was testifying, we wanted the jury completely captured by him. We wanted them to be paying attention
to him and his words. And he's a captivating person. And he had everyone in that courtroom
listening to him. We talked before about politics being, you know, a high profile factor here.
What else would you want to know
about the jury for a case like this Trump case that is going forward? And what else would you
have the biggest questions about as the case progressed? I think one of the biggest questions
I would have besides politics is how much they know about the other Trump trials, whether it's
civil or criminal. Because I do think that will actually be an even bigger
problem for the Trump defense team to contend with. And the reason I say that is because
the more litigation that a claimant or a plaintiff or defendant is involved in,
there's just a stigma that attaches. And so if the potential juror has been really closely following every single legal case that former President Trump has been involved in, I do think that could be problematic potentially for the defense.
Do you think this is an easy case or a hard case for a jury?
Because on one hand, it's extramarital affairs and payoffs seems relatively straightforward to grasp.
On the other hand, it's campaign finance and business filings, which is pretty complicated.
It is complicated. I don't think it's an easy case for a jury to deal with. It's just not going to
be. The implications of their decision are huge, and they know that. So it's not an easy case,
but I hope that they find a jury for both sides, right? That is impartial
and will listen to admissible evidence in an open-minded way so that they can come to the
right decision. Because that's what the justice system is all about, is arriving at the right
decision without influences that really have no place in a court of law. That's attorney Camille Vasquez, a partner at the Brown Rudnick Law Firm,
and the lawyer for Johnny Depp in that defamation case against Amber Heard.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlum and was edited by Adam Rainey.
Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan.
It's Consider This from NPR.
I'm Scott Detrow.