Consider This from NPR - Iran's nuclear sites got bombed. North Korea? It's another story

Episode Date: June 28, 2025

Although President Trump launched air strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities, the administration has chosen a different path when dealing with Kim Jong Un, the leader of nuclear-armed North Korea. For our Reporter's Notebook series, host Scott Detrow speaks with NPR correspondent Anthony Kuhn about covering Trump and Kim's past negotiations and the difficulties of reporting on North Korea. For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

On February 27, 2019, President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong-un clasped hands and smiled warmly for the cameras at a hotel in Hanoi, Vietnam. Their demeanors were friendly despite past animosity. Kim had once called Trump a dotard. Trump had promised to rain fire and fury down on North Korea. But in this moment, that was in the past. The two leaders had been trading personal letters. And Trump, in the lead up to the meeting, even said, quote, we fell in love.

They're an odd couple, you know. And Pierce Anthony Kuhn was there in Hanoi to cover the meeting as Trump and Kim negotiated about North Korea's nuclear program. The city was abuzz with motorcades of various government whizzing back and forth. Everybody in Hanoi seemed to be trying to cash in on it. There were t-shirts with Trump and Kim on it. People were getting these high and tight Kim Jong Un haircuts and, of course, lots of Vietnamese kitsch.

Despite the fanfare, the summit ended early, without a deal. It was basically the collapse of diplomacy. As Trump said, Sometimes you have to walk, and this was just one of those times. Although a deal didn't happen, that meeting was a stark contrast to the approach that Trump recently took with Iran, an approach that culminated in U.S. airstrikes on its nuclear facilities. Consider this. Nuclear diplomacy has been a prominent feature of Donald Trump's years in

office. So that's the topic in our weekly Reporter's Notebook series, where we bring you inside our reporting process. This episode, Anthony Kuhn brings us the view from the Korean peninsula, reflecting on his time covering Trump and Kim and the difficulties of covering North Korea. From NPR, I'm Scott Dattrow. It's Consider This from NPR. Earlier this week, U.S. State Department spokesperson Tammy Bruce was asked whether North Korea might take any lessons from the Trump administration's recent missile strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

Well, again, I won't speculate about what other countries should think or do. At the same time, President Trump in his first term made significant outreach to North Korea. And what I can say, of course, and they've got their own nuclear program at North Korea, that we remain committed to the complete denuclearization of North Korea. That remains a commitment. It was a nod to the similar space that North Korea and Iran have occupied in the presidencies of Donald Trump, as well as other recent presidents, countries with aspiring, or in the case of North Korea, established nuclear programs.

So when we called up Anthony Kuhn for this week's Reporter's Notebook, I wanted to start there talking about the parallels and non-parallels between Trump's North Korean negotiations and the ongoing conflict with Iran. This has been on a lot of people's minds. The key point, though, is North Korea now has an estimated arsenal of about 50 atomic bombs, whereas Iran had none. And North Korea also has the missiles to deliver these not only to U.S. military bases in Asia, but all the way to the U.S. homeland.

So a preemptive US strike on North Korea's nuclear facilities is really out of the question. So if anything, the message to North Korea was that when they decided to build a nuclear arsenal, that was a wise investment. That's the difference between what's happened to them and other countries which gave up their nuclear weapons like Libya and Ukraine. So let's let's shift gears and go back to just talking about the ways that you have covered North Korea, because it's a more extreme example of some things

that I think we also experience when we try to cover Iran, right? It's a tough country to get into, it's a culture which American audiences might not really understand. North Korea especially, there is probably the highest amount of government control over movement and information and media of any country in the world. How do you go about that when you are trying to cover this country? How do you get around the

political messaging to know how ordinary people feel about particular issues? Yeah, well it's very frustrating not to be able to get in there on the ground and speak to people and even when you do get, it's so tough to convey to people the lives of ordinary North Koreans. If you get into North Korea, probably you're going to the capital, Pyongyang, to report. But Pyongyang is a showcase city. It's for the elites. And news organizations that have set up bureaus in Pyongyang are sometimes accused of basically just being useful idiots and helping North Korea to, you know, to put out its propaganda without really getting any news.

I personally feel that there are ways of, you know, getting the news out of there. There are ways of interpreting what you're seeing and what you're hearing from people. Basically what we do in South Korea is we talk to defectors and we have to remind people that they are not necessarily representative of all people in North Korea. We read what North Korea says about itself in its state media and while that's propaganda and often gives you very little idea of what's really going on in there, you have to learn to interpret it. you have to learn to interpret it. You have to be able to read between the lines. And also it's important to get as close as you can. Go to the demilitarized zone in South Korea and look with binoculars

over the border to see what life looks like inside North Korea. Go to the Chinese border on the Yalu River between the two countries. Look at how this Chinese city of Dandong is ablaze with lights at night while the other side of the river is in almost total darkness at night and go to Russia where many North Korean laborers are sent to work. You got to get as close as you can and get in if at all possible. And you have been inside North Korea though. Tell us about that trip. that trip. Yeah that was an amazing, one of the most amazing experiences of my career as a journalist. I went with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra when they were invited to perform in Pyongyang in 2008. And this was a sort of brief window of cultural diplomacy, which people had hoped would blossom into something more. And I was in Pyongyang for about three days and we were taken all around the city.

It was an unforgettable trip and one thing that made it really great was the communication that took place between people and musicians, the use of music as in, you know, universal language to get over all sorts of barriers to communicate. And you know, I came away with the feeling that for all the differences and for all the ways in which the two Koreas, North and South, have grown apart, they're still both Korean. They speak more or less the same language, they eat the same food, their cultural performances were so similar. So that made me believe that as far apart as they've come, perhaps someday reunification might still be possible.

We are very pleased to hear that the symphony orchestra have come to our country. I also think exchange is necessary. You know, we've been obviously looking backwards here a lot, but there have been some new developments on this storyline. Trump did try to send another letter to Kim recently, right? Yes, this has been what's reported. Neither side has confirmed it. But the story was first reported by an authoritative North Korea

news website called NK News, and they said that Trump sent his letters via the only working channel of communication with North Korea, which is the North Korean embassy at the UN, but North Korean diplomats refused to accept the letters, so they never made it to Kim Jong-un. Wow. So any attempt to try to restart negotiations has so far failed. I mean, that is really remarkable to not even accept a letter from the president of the United States. So it makes me wonder, what do you think is different this time?

Why do you think that Kim is not engaging at all? Well, we face a fundamentally different scene in the second Trump administration than we did from the first. As we said, they now have a nuclear arsenal estimated at about 50 weapons when they only had about 20 or 30 during the first Trump administration. They were seeking security guarantees from the U.S. When they didn't get them, they turned to Russia and China. And now, by sending North Korean troops to fight Ukraine in Russia, they have a basically

a sort of a mutual self-defense treaty. And finally, you know, there was the letter writing between Kim and Trump. In 2018 and 2019, Kim and Trump exchanged 27 letters, personal letters, and there are pictures of Kim Jong Un reading Trump's letters at his desk. You can practically see the letters looking through his sheet of paper. And in the very last letter that Kim wrote to Trump, he wrote to him, if you do not think of our relationship as a stepping stone that only benefits you, then you would not make me look like an idiot who will only give without getting anything in return.

So that's how bad he felt he had been burned by Trump. And as if that weren't bad enough, Trump then took those letters and gave them to journalist Bob Woodward, who publicized them and they were all over the media. Quick turn from the original flowing oversized envelopes that correspondence, I guess. Who would imagine that Trump would just go handing them out like candy, right? So Anthony, I want to shift to you to end the segment.

And I actually remember asking you this eating ramen with you in Japan when I met you for the first time when I was covering President Biden's trip there. But I will repeat this question for our broader audience. How did you end up first covering Asia as a reporter? Because you've made this your specialty for a long time and have carted out a land as such an expert. Well, I was born in Boston, actually, but the next year I went to visit Asia. The first

country was Japan. And then as a college student, I came back and visited China and Korea. And although I hadn't really focused much or learned much about Asia as a kid, I was struck by the life of people, the depth of the culture, the dynamism of China. When I went in the 1980s, China was coming out of the Maoist period, and it was getting its first taste

of private enterprise and private businesses and nightlife, which there hadn't been much of under Mao. And this was an experience that was duplicated in many other countries. I saw these threads, these common threads and similarities between what had happened in China under Mao, in Cambodia under Pol Pot, in Indonesia under their military rule, under Myanmar's military rule.

And to be able to go into these countries and feel this explosion of openness, and then in many cases, reclosing experiments in democracy that failed. The similarities and the threads and the commonalities and the relations among these countries when they compare their experiences has just been fascinating. So if you could go back in time to young reporter Anthony Kuhn just getting started, and could give any advice on covering North Korea specifically,

probably the most challenging of all the various countries you've covered, I would imagine, what would it be? Pack light, because the radio equipment will bust your spine. I'm just kidding. Listen to what the people of the country say about themselves. Read their media or their propaganda and learn what they're really saying. Talk to as many North Koreans as possible

and avoid so much of the stereotyping, cartoonish, dehumanizing depictions of cultures we see that are unfamiliar to us. Learn the language, learn the history, eat their food, learn about their relations with their neighbors, China, Japan, Russia, South Korea. But as I said before, try to be there. If you can't get in, get as close as you can to it. That was Anthony Kuhn, NPR's correspondent in Seoul.

This episode was produced by Noah Caldwell and edited by Adam Rainey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detro.