Consider This from NPR - Is this the end of the rule of law in America?

Episode Date: June 15, 2025

Since the start of his second term, President Trump has been at odds with the federal courts.The protests in Los Angeles are just the latest series of events to raise huge questions about presidential power: in this case, whether the president can use military force to control protests.NPR's Scott Detrow speaks with J. Michael Luttig, a former federal judge who has a stark warning: that Trump's actions signal of the end of the rule of law in America.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

When protests broke out over immigration raids in Los Angeles, President Trump was quick to send in federal troops. Claiming the demonstrations were destructive, the president ordered the deployment of roughly 4,000 National Guard troops and 700 Marines. If I didn't get involved, if we didn't bring the guard in, we would bring more in if we needed it because we have to make sure there's going to be law and order. You had a disaster happening. California officials objected to the deployment of federal troops. It's an illegal act. It's immoral. It's also unconstitutional.

California Governor Gavin Newsom filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration last Monday. Well, he's showing more division, more chaos. He's inciting just the same and more fear, more anxiety, more likelihood that people are going to be hurt. We're on the other side of the red line. This has little precedent in modern American history. The suit accuses the administration of violating federal law and breaching the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The mobilization order that was sent to the Guard has a statute that requires it shall be issued through governors of the states. And I want to remind people listening, this impacts every state in America, not just the

state of California. In an initial ruling, a federal judge rejected Trump's rationale for federalizing the National Guard, ordering the Guard to be returned to Newsom's control. Just hours later, an appeals court put that order on hold, and for now, thousands of members of California's National Guard remain under Trump's control. What happens next could have far-reaching implications for the division of powers in government, and one former federal judge is issuing a grave warning. He's saying President Trump is waging war on the courts, and that jeopardizes American

democracy. Consider this. The clash over federalizing the National Guard in Los Angeles is just the latest battle between Trump and the courts over the limits of a president's power. From NPR, I'm Scott Detro. Keeping up with the news can feel like a 24-hour job. Luckily, it is our job. Every hour on the NPR News Now podcast, we take the latest most important stories happening and we package them into five minute episodes. So you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and on your way to that thing. Listen to the NPR News Now podcast now.

Is it wrong to ask how much money someone makes on the first date? A lot of people are like undervalued stocks. Like, andvalued stocks. If you see the potential, you could reap the reward. You got your ROI, your return on investment. I love how romantic this conversation sounds. All week long on the It's Been A Minute podcast, I'm getting into the dating questions you might be too scared to ask. Listen to It's Been a Minute wherever you get your podcasts. It's considered this from NPR, since the start of his second term, President Trump has been at

odds with the federal courts. From deporting immigrants without due process, to attacks on the press, to targeting law firms that he views as harboring his political rivals or impeding his policy agenda. The protests in LA are just the latest series of events to raise huge questions about presidential power, in this case, whether the president can use military force to control protests. One former federal judge has a stark warning that Trump's actions don't just present legal disputes, they could signal the end of the rule of law in America. J. Michael Ludig served as a federal judge for nearly 15 years.

He recently wrote a piece in the Atlantic about President Trump and the federal courts called, the end of rule of law in America. I talked with Judge Ludig about the piece and asked him what he thought of California's case against the Trump administration. The question that's posed by these litigations is whether the riots that have taken place, the disturbances, the riots in Los Angeles and other cities around the country rise to the level of the kind of emergency or crisis that would authorize the president to call up the National Guard. At first blush, many lawyers and constitutional thinkers believe that there's no such crisis or emergency that would justify the president's calling up of the National Guard. I mean, it just feels like in so many of these cases, President Trump is finding ways to maximize presidential power in ways that other administrations for a wide variety of reasons

never did. I mean, like, no one, it is very hard to stop a president from nationalizing the National Guard even if the reason is dubious seems to be a takeaway from this and so many other similar takeaways. Well, that's an excellent point. And virtually all of his signature initiatives of his presidency thus far has relied upon emergency powers that he either has inherent as president or powers that have been conferred upon him, emergency powers, by the Congress of the United States. Now in every single one of those instances, Scott, I believe that there has not been the requisite crisis, emergency, invasion, rebellion, those are the operative words of the respective statutes, to justify this president's invocation

of those emergency powers. Nat. I want to follow up on that in a moment, but first I think it's important to characterize your point of view in all of this, and just give listeners who aren't familiar a little bit of context. You were appointed to the federal bench by a Republican president, President George H.W. Bush.

Over the years, you were considered a conservative jurist, but you have also raised serious warnings about President Trump. How would you characterize your point of view, your concerns right now? Well, I'm gravely worried about the president's attempted use of powers, which he does not have, even arguably have. Judge Ludwig, do you feel like worries that the president will straight up ignore an order

have influenced Supreme Court rulings so far with President Trump? Well, he already has, and that's the Garcia case. And then he's thumbed his nose at virtually every lower court decision. Does that mean he effectively has this power then? You're talking about things that he doesn't have the power to do. He does them anyway.

Courts rule in. He ignores the orders. So does he effectively have these powers that on paper he didn't have? This president of the United States is defying the Constitution and the laws of the United States every single day. And he has thrown every one of these issues, of course, into the federal courts, overwhelming the federal courts to the point that he effectively has assumed those powers because the courts are unable to reject his claims in time so that he does get away with it. That's a remarkably sad

commentary on this president and on America at this moment. Judge Lueg, I don't want to put I don't want to put a positive spin on what's been like a very blunt conversation with your blunt concerns, but I'm wondering, is there one specific thing that you think could happen to, to improve the situation from your point of view is whether it's, whether it's the Supreme Court taking a stronger stance or anything else, like what to you would, would ease your concerns just a little bit at this point in time, if anything? The only thing, Scott, that can end this war on the federal courts and the rule of law in America is for the President of the United States to stand down. He is the one who has instigated this

war. But it's crystal clear that at this moment, he does not want to end that war and he has no intention of ending that war. That is former federal judge Jay Michael Ludig. Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you, Scott. This episode was produced by Chiamactomy with audio engineering by Simon Laszlo Jansen. It was edited by Tinbeit Irmias. Our executive producer is Sammy Gannigan. It's Consider This from NPR.

I'm Scott Tetra. The best kind of celebrity interview is one where you find out that the person who made a thing you love also thinks in a way that you love. Nothing is more foreign than when Ariel says in The Little Mermaid, I want to be where the people are. I don't want to be where the people are. I don't want to be where the people are. I just don't. I'm Rachel Martin. Listen to the Wild Card Podcast only from NPR.