Consider This from NPR - Jan. 6 Committee Issues Four Criminal Referrals For Trump

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

The House Select Committee investigating the deadly January 6, 2021 attack on the United States Capitol held what is expected to be its final hearing.Committee members voted to refer former President Donald Trump to the Justice Department for prosecution on four criminal charges. They include inciting an insurrection, obstructing an official government proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the United States.We discuss the news with NPR justice correspondent Carrie Johnson and congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh.And Republican strategist Ron Bonjean breaks down what this could mean for Trump and the GOP. In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail]. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University performs breakthrough research every year, making discoveries that improve human health, combat climate change, and move society forward. More at iu.edu forward. The Select Committee investigating the deadly January 6th attack on the United States Capitol has held what is expected to be its final hearing. And after almost 18 months, numerous public hearings, more than 900 interviews, and hours upon hours of compiling evidence, it's come down to this. We believe that the evidence described by my colleagues today and assembled throughout our hearings warrants a criminal referral of

former President Donald J. Trump. That is January 6th committee member Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland summing up the case against former President Donald Trump. Ours is not a system of justice where foot soldiers go to jail and the masterminds and ringleaders get a free pass. Raskin and his fellow committee members once again went through their main findings, and when they were done, they voted. Miss Cheney? Aye. Miss Cheney? Aye. Miss Lofgren? Aye. Miss Lofgren? Aye. Unanimously, to send the Justice Department four criminal referrals against Trump on four charges. Obstruction of an official proceeding of Congress, conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to make a false statement, and insurrection. Here is Raskin again.

An insurrection is a rebellion against the authority of the United States. It is a grave federal offense anchored in the Constitution itself, which repeatedly opposes insurrections and domestic violence and indeed uses participation in insurrection by officeholders as automatic grounds for disqualification from ever holding public office again at the federal or state level. They were peaceful people. These were great people. The crowd was unbelievable. And I mentioned the word love, the love, the love in the air. I've never seen anything like it.

Consider this. The January 6th committee has now officially referred former President Trump for possible prosecution over the events of January 6th, 2021, when the committee concluded Trump incited a deadly riot at the Capitol in an attempt to keep himself in power. What does this mean for Trump, who is again campaigning for president? And how likely is the Department of Justice to pursue charges against the former president? From NPR, I'm Juana Summers. It's Monday, December 19th. Support for NPR and the following message come from Carnegie Corporation of New York, working to reduce political polarization through philanthropic support for education, democracy, and peace.

More information at carnegie.org. It's Consider This from NPR. The House January 6th panel has officially referred former President Donald Trump for criminal charges related to the attack on the Capitol and Trump's efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss. The Democratic-led panel today outlined a series of charges it is sending to the Department of Justice. Benny Thompson, a Mississippi Democrat, is the panel's chair, and he said this about Trump. He lost the 2020 election and knew it, but he chose to try to stay in office through a multi-part scheme to overturn the results and block the transfer of power. In the end, he summoned a mob to Washington and knowingly they were armed and angry, pointed them to the Capitol and told them to fight like hell. Let's discuss this news with NPR Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson and Congressional Correspondent Deirdre Walsh. Hello to both of you. Hi there. Hey,

Juana. Okay, so let's start by walking through what happened today. The panel discussed its findings, much of which we had already heard. And Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland ultimately named the referrals. Here's part of what he said. Ours is not a system of justice where foot soldiers go to jail and the masterminds and ringleaders get a free pass. So, Carrie, what were the charges outlined against former President Trump today? There were four charges that were mentioned at this public hearing. The first is obstruction of an official proceeding. The second is conspiracy to defraud the United States. The third is

conspiracy to make a false statement. And the fourth is to incite, assist, or aid and comfort an insurrection. Let's unpack this a little bit. Carrie, what stands out to you about that? You know, some of these charges have been used against the rioters at the Capitol on January 6th, but insurrection is rarely used and is a very serious political and legal matter. Congressman Jamie Raskin called it a, quote, grave federal offense and said, nothing could be a greater betrayal of a president's duty. The last prosecution I found for insurrection was in the Civil War era. One of the other charts that stands out is the conspiracy to make a false statement.

That relates to the scheme to substitute slates of fake electors in 2020. We know the Justice Department has been very active on that front, sending out lots of subpoenas. The committee has had documents from law professor John Eastman that may incriminate both him and Donald Trump. What about for you, Deirdre? I know we've been wondering about these criminal referrals for some time now. We have, and there was a lot of internal debate inside the January 6th committee about how many individuals they would refer to the Justice Department. Throughout these public hearings, though, members of the committee have really been hammering home the theme that then President Trump was really the central player behind the effort to overturn the 2020 election results.

Vice Chair Liz Cheney today said the evidence they outlined shows Trump should be disqualified. No man who would behave that way at that moment in time can ever serve in any position of authority in our nation again. He is unfit for any office. But we should note these criminal referrals by the January 6th committee are largely symbolic. The committee can't prosecute it, but several members have been saying in the days leading up to today's final hearing that there are a lot of individuals who were at the Capitol on January 6th who have been sentenced to jail time for trespassing, assaulting police officers, destroying property. But they say the masterminds of the scheme needed to be held accountable.

So, Carrie, to you on the investigative side, what happens next now? You know, we have multiple grand juries in federal court in Washington, D.C. that are marching forward. Much of this work is done in secrecy, so we don't know exactly what DOJ is doing and when. There has been a flurry of subpoenas on the slates of fake electors and to state officials who were harassed by Trump and Rudy Giuliani, his lawyer, and to state officials who seem to cooperate with Donald Trump. Justice has already compelled some key figures to talk in the grand jury, like Trump's White House counsel. And the new special counsel, Jack Smith, has been busy working. He says the pace of investigations will not slow or flag under his watch. And we also learned about some referrals to the House Ethics Committee against a number of lawmakers. Deirdre, what can you tell us about that? Right. There were five House

Republicans who were subpoenaed by the January 6th committee. House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy and Ohio Republican Jim Jordan were among those. They both talked to Trump on January 6th and have publicly talked about their conversations with him. Pennsylvania Republican Scott Perry, Arizona Republican Andy Biggs were in touch with some of the outside attorneys and justice officials who were in discussions about this plot not to certify the 2020 election. Those four House Republicans were referred to the House Ethics Committee today for sanctions for not complying with the committee's subpoenas. The fifth Alabama Republican, Mo Brooks, was subpoenaed, but he was not referred today. He's not coming back. Next year, he lost in a primary in a Senate race. But really, in reality, the

session of Congress is about to wrap up at the end of the year, and the House Ethics Committee is not likely to take any action against these four House Republicans. The panel is evenly divided by four House Republicans, four House Democrats, and Republicans, even if they had time, would not likely vote to proceed with any real investigation. So, Carrie, in addition to the four referred charges that you laid out earlier in our conversation, the panel raised the idea of seditious conspiracy in its report. What did it say? This didn't come up at the televised hearing, but in the written summary, the committee mentioned the seditious conspiracy statute, and that involves trying to overthrow the government by using force. The committee said DOJ has more tools than Congress, like subpoena power and the use of

the grand jury to compel people's testimony. And the Justice Department may have enough evidence to prosecute former President Trump for seditious conspiracy. You know, just last month, a jury here in D.C. convicted Oath Keepers founder Stuart Rhodes and his deputy, Kelly Meggs, of seditious conspiracy. Members of the far-right group the Proud Boys also faced that charge. Even if the Justice Department does not wind up charging Donald Trump with seditious conspiracy, the whole idea that the word sedition is in the same sentence as a man who occupied the Oval Office says something pretty serious about where we are right now. So Deidre, how have Republicans responded?

I mean, most Republicans have been dismissing the January 6th committee as partisan. I heard from Jim Jordan's spokesman on the ethics referral. He called it, quote, a partisan and political stunt. It is worth noting that Jim Jordan is slated to chair the House Judiciary Committee next year when Republicans take control of the House. For his part, former President Trump has been on social media today focused on border issues. He's already been casting doubt on the Justice Department's probe. All along, Trump has criticized this House committee. He's called it the unselect committee. He's called it a witch hunt. So it's sort of more of the same in terms of Republican response today. And Deirdre, before I let you go, you were there for the hearing. This is a hearing from a panel that's almost done, that's set to expire next Congress.

Four of the committee members are not returning next Congress. What was it like today? It was actually pretty subdued in the hearing compared to earlier public hearings. I mean, they were sort of wrapping up all of the evidence they've been putting together over the last 18 months. As you said, they don't really have much time left before the panel expires at the end of the year. Raskin said he thought they did a comprehensive job. I think one lasting impact is this committee really changed the format for congressional hearings. It was very effective at creating a narrative, something you usually don't see at congressional hearings. NPR's Carrie Johnson and Deirdre Walsh. My colleague Mary Louise Kelly spoke with Republican strategist Ron Bonjean for his take on the criminal referrals by the January 6th committee, recommending that prosecutors charge former President Trump with four crimes.

Here's their conversation. Come on a walk with me through what impact you can see this having. And I want to start with Donald Trump himself personally, politically. How damaging is this? Well, there's no doubt that the January 6th committee was going to throw the kitchen sink in with their final report now that Republicans are going to be taking over the House. Politically, this is just another piece of information that's damaging to the president when it comes to swing voters. Most Republicans, you know, who are really not paying attention to this think that this is probably just another political exercise in Washington. But what it really matters is what those independent voters

are thinking. And it's not helpful to the president for 2024. So not unexpected. You're not surprised by where this has landed today. Does it impact Donald Trump's status as frontrunner for the 2024 nomination, do you think? Because you're talking about the importance perhaps to swing voters. At this point, it probably does not impact his status because he's the only one in the field running at this point. You have Ron DeSantis, governor of Florida, and former Vice President Mike Pence in the wings, but they have not stepped forward. It's going to take a Republican, another Republican, to really step in and give Republican voters, base voters a chance to make a choice. But right now,

he's the only one that Republicans have. Speak to those men in the wings who you just mentioned, Ron DeSantis, Mike Pence, if you were advising them, perhaps you are advising them, you can tell me, what advice would you have for them today? Well, I would be thinking about when you're going to throw your hat into the ring, and that's probably going to be sometime early next year if they were to do it.

Right now, a lot of voters are paying attention to buying Christmas presents or holiday gifts and getting ready for the holidays. And they heard something about President Trump that's controversial. That leaves a negative impression. But if I were them, I'd be waiting until the next year so they could unveil a positive agenda to look forward to helping solve people's problems. What about the impact on your party, on the GOP more broadly? I hear you saying, look, this isn't unexpected. They were going to throw the kitchen sink at him while they had the

chance. However, to have the former president of the United States and the words seditious conspiracy in the same sentence, it's not a great look. No, it's not helpful to the Republican Party to have a report like this in general. I think, unfortunately, that many people are getting used to this type of, these type of phrases. And there's some, you know, I think that it's not helpful to have out there for Republicans. And we need to move beyond that. And we need to have a nominee that looks to the future and that has a positive outlook instead of a legal albatross around his neck, along with so many other things that have gone wrong for former President Trump. We need somebody new, somebody fresh that can lead

America forward and help the Republican Party dig its way out of this bad reputation that it's getting by associating with the president. Are those conversations taking place on Capitol Hill as you and I speak tonight? They're taking place all over the Republican Party right now, but it really takes another nominee to step forward before anyone's going to start really affiliating themselves and separating. You have some members of Congress going on the record talking about how bad some of these things that he's said and done over the past, you know, recently he has done, but we need to have a lot more volume there. That was Republican strategist Ron Bonjean. It's Consider This from NPR.

I'm Juana Summers. This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University is committed to moving the world forward, working to tackle some of society's biggest challenges. Nine campuses, one purpose. Creating tomorrow, today. More at iu.edu. Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation. Working toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all. On the web at theschmidt.org.