Consider This from NPR - More Than 1.5 Million Ukrainians Have Fled Their Country

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

In what the U.N. refugee agency calls the fastest-growing refugee crisis in Europe since World War II, more than a million Ukrainians have fled their country since Russia invaded less than two weeks ago. The bulk of them have traveled through Poland and many are staying there. That's where Ari Shapiro spoke with acting United States ambassador to Ukraine Kristina Kvien. She and her staff relocated to Poland soon after the fighting started, and she discusses the strain this new humanitarian crisis is putting on the bordering countries. In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Over the last few days, Artem Kulushnikov and his family have become accustomed to an awful ritual. They have been staying at a rental flat in the town of Vinitsia, about four hours southwest of their home in Kyiv. And this sound has been a constant. Kulushnikov tells NPR's Eleanor Beardsley that he walks eight flights of stairs in his building rather than take the elevator in case the power goes out. At the top, his wife Marina is waiting with three-year-old Sasha. Eleven-year-old Olenka is down in the playground. They grab a bag they keep by the door with documents, a computer, some snacks.

And then, along with hundreds of others, they head to a concrete basement under a kindergarten for shelter. There are rows of benches and little beds set up in another room nearby. Marina says she's thankful for this. I'm glad we have this place. It seems to be safe, you know. It's the only thing that matters right now. It's no use to think about what you left behind or what you got used to. Once they get the all clear, they head right back to the apartment and start dinner.

This back and forth happens multiple times a day, but Artem says it beats living inside a bunker. To me, that's unhealthy. Psychologically, emotionally, it kills you faster than any airstrike. So I think we need to live on and be present in life and enjoy it, and that's how we win. Still, he says the daily drills are taking a toll on his daughter, Olenka. I mean, it's the first time when I see her scared. And today, first time when I see her cry. Because I might go to war and, you know, whatever.

And that hurts deeply. I just condemn Putin and Russian military forces for my child crying today. Because she doesn't have to. She doesn't have to have this childhood. Although he'll have to stay in Ukraine, Artem is hoping to get his family across the border into Poland soon, where people like Chris Meltzer with the UN Refugee Agency are waiting to welcome Ukrainians.

On the eastern side of the border, it is heartbreaking. On this side of the border, it's heartwarming. And for us as humanitarians, it keeps us running, actually. Meltzer says the volunteer support network throughout Europe is a bright spot in a horrible conflict. Doctors who said, I'm taking my annual leave, I would like to help. From people who said, yeah, we are in a church group and we collected 10,000 euros or something, we want to help.

So it's really amazing. Consider this. More than 1.5 million Ukrainians have fled their country since Russia invaded less than two weeks ago. The UN Refugee Agency calls it the fastest growing refugee crisis in Europe since World War II. Coming up, we'll hear from the acting U.S. ambassador to Ukraine about how long the bordering countries can keep up with the need. From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang. It's Monday, March 7th. It's Consider This from NPR. The bulk of Ukrainian refugees, more than one million of them,

have left Ukraine through one of eight border crossings in Poland. More than 20 reception centers are taking them in, where people like attorney Stefan Ober are volunteering. He abruptly shuttered his busy law firm in Luxembourg to lend his time. Able or not, close my business and just send it out of office to all my clients, this is the way it is, and if you're not happy, go find another lawyer. When he spoke with NPR correspondent Eric Westervelt, Ober was wearing a red jacket and helping guide refugees to buses and cars. And while he was heartened by the volunteer ethos in the air, he says they could use more hands on the ground.

You never get enough. What we need actually is people who volunteer to host people, to transport people to the destination they want to go. The situation begs the question, how long can this go on for? How many Ukrainians can cross the border before countries like Poland are overwhelmed? My co-host Ari Shapiro put that question to the acting U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Kristina Kvin, who's been working from Poland since the beginning of the war. They met up Monday morning at her staff's temporary hub of operations since the beginning of the war. They met up Monday morning

at her staff's temporary hub of operations in the city of Zhezhiv. Well, Poland has done a very good job. First of all, they've been extremely generous in letting all Ukrainians over the border that are allowed to come. And they are putting them up in temporary shelters, but then quickly moving them on, either to friends and relatives who live in Europe, or to families from all over Europe who have come and offered their homes to Ukrainian refugees. So, so far, the flow has been smooth, the refugees have been taken care of, and the Poles have done a very good job. Do you have a number in mind, a certain number of millions of people, at which point the system cannot support all of the needs and the demands? It's hard to say, but I would say

that very large international resources are being brought to bear. International aid organizations are coming to Poland and other border countries to help. And I think that with the support of the international organizations, they will continue to be able to absorb Ukrainian refugees. When you go to the train station and you see people coming off these trains, it is striking that the overwhelming majority of them are women with children. I've covered many different refugee crises, and I've never seen that degree of a gender imbalance. How does that affect the needs

and the response that the international community has to mount? Well, I would say, I mean, the reason that you're seeing so many women and children is because males age 18 to 60 are not permitted to leave Ukraine unless they have certain exemptions. So it's mostly mothers and their children that are coming out. It does have some impacts in terms of the needs. Obviously, children have special needs that go beyond what adults have, and it's very important that the children's needs are met so that they stay healthy and safe. So far, as I said, the Poles have been doing a good job, and I would say Europeans all over Europe, not just in Poland,

have really stepped up and are helping in many different ways. Plus the international aid organizations. I think all those together are so far being successful in taking care of those who are coming across the border. Over the weekend, Israel's prime minister tried to mediate talks between the leaders of Russia and Ukraine. There have been negotiations in Belarus. Do you believe this can lead to anything productive? I mean, I know before Russia invaded, we were talking about whether there was any diplomatic path to avoid this. Do you see any diplomatic path out of this? That depends on President Putin. Which is what you said a month ago before Putin invaded Ukraine.

Yeah, the answer hasn't changed. And it really is up to President Putin. He needs to sit down and have a real discussion about this and be willing to have a diplomatic solution and to stop the killing. But another way of interpreting that answer is Russia has all the power here. Well, Russia has some of the power here. We have, not just us, but the entire Western world has imposed serious sanctions on Russia, and their economy is going down quickly. The sanctions have had a very quick effect, and the Russian ruble is plummeting. The Russian stock market is plummeting. Russian goods are becoming more difficult to get, and so Russia is feeling the heat here. Also, we continue to flow goods and weapons to Ukraine to help fight Russia. And so far, they have used those to very

good effect and are having more success, I think, than we anticipated, as we said earlier. As we were driving here to meet you, we saw convoys of military vehicles, camouflage, troops. Do you fear that this conflict could expand beyond Ukraine? What are the red lines that will prevent that from happening? Well, President Biden has made clear that NATO borders are sacrosanct. So if Russia tries to go anywhere within the NATO border, then NATO will come to the defense of its members. Are there conversations happening about the possibility that Putin might not respect NATO borders? Well, NATO is full of planners. They plan all the time. I'm sure there have been many plans on the shelf for a long time, and I assume

that they are reviewing those. But NATO is a very well-organized group. It has a very strong structure, and we have sent extra troops to Poland and other NATO allies that border Ukraine to make sure that they have the security they need. And we will, as I said, and as President Biden has said, if Russia takes one step, one inch into NATO territory, NATO will be prepared to respond. Just to be very crude and blunt, I have talked to Americans who have said, is this going to lead to World War III? Which is an extreme way of phrasing a question that I think in some form or another is on a lot of people's minds. How do you answer that question? We're trying everything we

can to make sure it doesn't lead to World War III. But ultimately, again, that depends on the actions of President Putin. Can I ask about your own experience? Because you arrived at the U.S. embassy in Ukraine in 2019, a time of upheaval, but not a time of war. You are the charge d'affaires, the acting U.S. ambassador, not Senate confirmed. And now you are thrust into the middle of this international conflict. You were the acting ambassador at a time of war. This is something you never expected. And I wonder how you are feeling being at the center of it right now. It's a big responsibility. I'm doing my very best to take care of the team and also to help Ukraine. I'm learning a lot because I haven't served in a war zone before. And fortunately, I have a fabulous team that is behind me. A lot of them have worked in Afghanistan or Iraq,

and so they do have experience that is applicable here. And together, we're incredibly dedicated, we're incredibly motivated, and we really want to do our best to help Ukraine. I'm sure there are a lot of things that keep you up at night. What's at the top of the list right now? I worry about my friends and about the Ukrainian people. I get up every morning with a pit in my stomach, worried about what has happened overnight, what city Russia might have bombed, who Russia might be killing. And so that's my

main concern is the safety and security of the Ukrainian people and my friends in Ukraine. Do you have friends who are still in the country who have not left? Oh, many, many. Yeah. I mean, Ukrainians are not leaving. They're really fighting. And I'm, of course, I've known, I've been in Ukraine for two and a half years, so I know the government very well. Many of them I do consider friends, not just contacts. And I'm in touch with them constantly. But I, of course, worry for their safety. That was Acting U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Christina Kvien, speaking with my co-host, Ari Shapiro. You're listening to Consider This from NPR. I'm Elsa Chang.