Consider This from NPR - The Chair Of the Joint Chiefs Is Retiring. What's His Legacy?
Episode Date: October 2, 2023Army General Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had a tenure marked by a relentless series of challenges. He served through the U.S. withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan, Russia's in...vasion of Ukraine and rising tensions with China. He also served under an American president with little regard for the norms that have historically separated politics from the U.S. military: Donald Trump.In an interview shortly before his retirement last weekend, NPR's Mary Louise Kelly asked Milley about the relationship between the military and the executive branch — and how it was tested under Trump.Email us at considerthis@npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
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Over the course of more than four decades in uniform, Mark Milley has risen from newly minted army officer to seasoned commander of troops in combat to the nation's top-ranking military officer and advisor to the president.
But when we caught up with him the other day, he was occupied with less weighty matters, like cleaning out his desk.
We just, actually, we just finished cleaning it out.
Okay.
A few minutes ago.
Right.
And I've got a, I just counted up 16 things that I've got to sign here real quick.
I bet you do.
Are you actually taking, like, pictures off the walls and all that?
All that, yeah, all that's been done.
Yeah.
The only thing left in here is furniture and flags.
Milley turned over his post as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff over the weekend.
His four years in that role were defined by a seemingly nonstop series of challenges. There
was the end of the 20-year-long U.S. campaign in Afghanistan, rising tensions with China,
Russia's invasion of Ukraine. There was also an American president with little regard for
the norms that have historically separated politics from the U.S. military.
I have generals that are great generals. These are great fighters. These are warriors.
Former President Trump often referred to U.S. troops as his.
My generals and my military, they have decision-making ability.
He wielded his power as commander-in-chief as a threat against the
nation's adversaries. In a tweet, President Trump declared America's nuclear button is much bigger
and more powerful than North Korea's. And he pulled the military into divisive political issues,
most notably when he threatened to send American troops into the streets to contain protests for
racial justice in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. Mayors and governors must establish an overwhelming law enforcement
presence until the violence has been quelled. If a city or state refuses to take the actions
that are necessary to defend the life and property of their residents, then I will deploy the United States military and quickly solve the problem for them.
And then, of course, it was January 6th.
Mark Milley was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff when his boss lost an election,
refused to accept the results, and tried to stay in power.
Consider this. General Mark Milley is returning to civilian life. In his
last interview as chairman, we'll get his thoughts on the relationship between the military and the
executive branch. From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It's Monday, October 2nd.
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one purpose. Creating tomorrow today. More at iu.edu. It's Consider This from NPR. As chairman
of the Joint Chiefs, Mark Milley struggled to manage a president with authoritarian tendencies.
Case in point, Milley appeared alongside Trump,
wearing his combat fatigues in a political photo op on Lafayette Square during the racial
justice protests in 2020. Milley later apologized. I should not have been there. My presence in that
moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics.
When I spoke with General Milley last week, I asked about that moment on Lafayette Square.
How close, General Milley, did we come to the American military being deployed against the American people?
I would just say that the United States military stayed out of actual politics.
And I think that's an important distinction.
Marching behind the president, bad optics, bad image, clearly.
And I knew that, you know, within 90 seconds, walked away from it.
And then later tried to make amends on that with an apology at the end of his speech.
But having said that, that is not the same, by the way, as entering into politics.
Now, you asked me how it closed,
but there's no role for the U.S. military there. But President Trump, he was elected and he wanted active duty military in the streets of American cities to suppress the protests. He was the
commander in chief. He very well could have ordered that. He didn't order it. So that's an
important distinction as well. So what I'm telling you is that the military has no role, zero, in actual electoral policy or politics. So the active duty military is a very
high bar for deployment on the streets of America. We have things like the Posse Comitatus Act.
It requires the president to make certain judgment calls. So in the case of President
Trump, he never actually ordered, made the actual decision and issued the order to make certain judgment calls. So in the case of President Trump, he never actually
ordered, made the actual decision and issued the order to deploy active duty troops on the streets
of America. I do want to follow on what you just said and put to you a question that I have put to
Jim Mattis, who served, of course, as Trump's defense secretary. How do you think, how have
you thought about duty and responsibility to your country as opposed to your commander in chief?
Well, my duty and responsibility is to the Constitution.
That's where my loyalty is.
That's what I take an oath to.
That's what every one of us in uniform does.
We don't take an oath to an individual.
We don't take an oath to anything other than the Constitution of the United States.
So our loyalty and our, you know, we are duty bound.
We are oath bound to protect and
defend the Constitution. And part of that, by the way, is to follow the lawful legal orders of
whomever is the elected representative, whether you like the orders or not. If they're legal and
lawful, it's our obligation to follow them. And that's an important thing. We, the military,
are obligated by law to follow lawful orders.
Are you confident that guardrails are in place to ensure that no future president, should they issue orders that are not legal and lawful, would be able to, say, attempt to overturn the outcome of an election? Well, look, the first thing that happens in any discussions with any
president is, you know, the discussion of options. And if, for some reason, a president says,
do X, Y, or Z, and you, as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, think or perceive that
that to be illegal, then there has to be a discussion that follows. And if
for some reason what he's saying is to do something that's illegal, you are obligated to talk to that
decision maker, the president, and inform the president, hey, that's illegal, that's out of
bounds, that's against the rules of engagement, that's against international law, whatever the
case may be. I mean, you get that I'm pushing you on this, sir, because it's not just a question of
looking back in an exit interview.
There is the distinct possibility this former president may become our president again.
It's the same drill.
It doesn't matter if he's the president or any other president.
It's the obligation of the advisor, in this case the chairman, but also there's others in the room.
It's not just you. It's the obligation of the advisors to advise the decision maker of what the left and
right limits of the decision are and what the legal boundaries are. And I can tell you at no
time from either president have I received an illegal order where the decision had been made
and it was you are ordered to do something illegal, right? As we were preparing to interview
the general, we invited members of the military and veterans to share what questions they wanted asked. Among those who wrote, another four-star general, retired Air Force General Michael Hayden, former head of the CIA.
He wants to know, are we okay or not? And I followed up with him because I wanted to make sure I understood his question. He told me, it's the United States, not China or Russia, that poses the greatest threat to U.S. national security.
General Milley, what do you think?
Look, I think that as a soldier and as a chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, my primary responsibility is overseas.
And anything domestically is a matter of either domestic politics or domestic law enforcement, unless deemed otherwise for a specific reason. So as I look overseas, I think you have a wide variety of threats. I think China
is the single most significant national security challenge to the United States and will remain so
for many, many years to come. But the immediate right now, the here and now, is clearly this war that's in Central Europe with Ukraine and Russia.
Russia is a very powerful country.
It's the biggest war since World War II.
Last question.
General C.Q. Brown is taking over, the Air Force general who will take over from you as chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
What advice did you give him?
What do you wish you'd known?
Well, first – yeah, first of all, he's been confirmed. So that's a demonstration of the
people's will, because the people's representative, the members of Congress have voted to confirm him.
I told him, look at CQ, stay true to your North Star and your North Star is the Constitution of
the United States. Maintain your integrity and go with your instinct.
And at the end of the day, you have really a very important but relatively simple job and concept
in that your job is to advise the president and the secretary of defense
and the National Security Council on the use and the employment of the United States military.
You're an advisor. You're not a decision
maker. Give them the best advice you got. Give them the best shot you got. And you're going to
do just fine. But never lose your integrity and never, ever turn your back on the Constitution.
General Mark Milley speaking with us as he packs up his office at the Pentagon. Thank you for
taking our questions. Thank you for your service. Mary Louise, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity and you be good.
Outgoing Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Mark Milley.
And for more stories like the ones you hear on Consider This, check out All Things Considered,
our afternoon news show. It's a mix of the deep dives you get here, along with more stories you'll
want to hear. Visit npr.org slash allthingsconsidered to stream it live every afternoon.
It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.