Consider This from NPR - The Election Was Secure, But Russia Found Other Ways To Interfere In The U.S.

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo acknowledged who was behind the cyber attack on Friday, saying Russia used third-party software to get inside the systems of multiple U.S. government agencies.But the attack didn't happen last week. It started in March. To help make sense of how an attack of this magnitude went undiscovered for months, NPR's Mary Louise Kelly spoke with Fiona Hill, who served as President Trump's most senior Russia adviser on the National Security Council until last year.Now that it's clear who was behind the attack, how do deal with Russia will be a big question for the incoming Biden administration. NPR's Russia correspondent Lucian Kim explains how the U.S.-Russia relationship may change as Biden takes office in January.In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment that will help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

It's been common knowledge for more than a week that Russian hackers found their way into U.S. government agencies. There was a significant effort to use a piece of third-party software to essentially embed code inside of U.S. government systems. Speaking to conservative radio host Mark Levin on Friday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo finally acknowledged who was behind the cyber attack. He's the most senior government official to do so. We can say pretty clearly that it was the Russians that engaged in this activity. I think this is one of the most serious cyber attacks we've seen in the past decade. That's Brad Smith, president of Microsoft, one of the companies investigating the attack, which targeted private organizations as well. Smith told NPR that hackers were able to infiltrate SolarWinds.

That's a Texas company that makes widely used network monitoring software. This actor put malware into legitimate software that was then distributed to roughly 18,000 customers around the world, governments, companies, and the like. Worse yet, this attack did not just happen last week. Russian hackers got in back in March. I believe that when you see an attack like the one that we are currently witnessing, one that is not yet over, this is an economic issue, but it is more than that.

It is a threat to the national security of the country as a whole, and we need to respond to it with the level of urgency that that requires. Consider this. The U.S. has been worried about and planning for Russian election interference for years, and while the election was secure, Russia was interfering in other ways. From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It's Monday, December 21st. This message comes from NPR sponsor, AT&T. There's a lot that's different about this school year. But one thing that hasn't changed is AT&T's There's a lot that's different about this school year, but one thing that hasn't changed is AT&T's commitment to education. They're focused on keeping students and teachers connected to

learning. It's why AT&T has connected over 200 million students with tools and technology for distance learning. Learn more at att.com slash remote learning. I'm Guy Raz, and on NPR's How I Built This, how Tim Ferriss, as an entrepreneur, author, investor, and podcaster, turned himself into a multi-million dollar brand. Subscribe or listen now. It's Consider This from NPR. If someone wants access to private data, one of the easiest ways is to send what looks like a trustworthy link. Maybe a software update, something you wouldn't think twice about clicking on.

That is more or less what happened to the U.S. government. Software in particular is one of those things where you assume that when it says it's good, you expect it to be good. Chris Krebs is the former director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency. You may remember he was fired by President Trump shortly after the election for saying truthfully that the presidential election was secure. And he told NPR Russian intelligence targeted the government through a backdoor using a trusted contractor to find a way in. We're still working, as I understand it, my old agency, along with the intelligence community, are still working to understand who the victims were inside government, as well as outside government, and trying to get our arms around the depth of the hack and see what they got, where they went, what sensitive information may have been taken by the Russians.

Further complicating all of this, President Trump has been downplaying the threat from Russia. He tweeted over the weekend, China may be responsible. Chris Krebs says there is something Trump could do right now to ensure the U.S. has the funding and authority it needs to get past this attack and prepare for the next one. Krebs says sign the newest version of the National Defense Authorization Act. And it right now is unfortunately sitting languishing on the Resolute desk in the Oval Office, and that bill needs to be signed immediately. How could an attack of this magnitude go undiscovered for months? To help make sense of it, I'm joined by Fiona Hill. She spent her career studying Russia and served until last year as President Trump's most

senior Russia advisor on the National Security Council. Fiona Hill, thanks for joining me. Oh, thanks so much, Mary Louise. Thanks. Is there any reason to believe this was anyone other than Russia? No, I don't think so. Given the number of private sector entities, as well as government entities who have attributed it to Russia.

As someone who has advised President Trump, why, in your view, is he so resistant to blaming Russia or confronting Russia? I'm afraid to say that there's a very personal element to this. President Trump has been fixated on President Putin for some considerable period of time. It's President Putin's style of governance. It's his seemingly unchecked power. It's the way that he presents himself personally as a leader. I think that there's a lot that Trump admires in Putin's style, and I think he finds it extraordinarily hard because he was convinced that they had personal chemistry to think that Putin would do something like this on his watch. I mean, I think we've seen that President Trump

is the same person in private and public who takes everything very personally, who believes very much in his own personal charisma, his own personal role. And he's become personally invested in Vladimir Putin as a result of thinking that they have a relationship. And he's lost sight, unfortunately, then of the national security perspective of all of this. I think that's one of the reasons why he's both in denial to himself, and has said very little about this. How did this happen? I mean, understanding you're out of government now, but do you think the US was asleep at the wheel, distracted by the pandemic, the election, other things? Look, I think all of these things are issues. I think part of it is also a problem when your

team is getting undermined. And we were also in the midst of an election, of course, in which we were extraordinarily worried about a repeat performance of 2016, a hack of the election. But I think as a result of that, we put a lot of resources onto this. I mean, I can't say for sure, because I mean, I know that we have an awful lot of very technically capable hard-working people across the entire system but it was certainly the case that we were being pushed to look in one particular area and then the other point is as well that um the president has actually undermined the intelligence community at every turn he's been you know pitted been pitted against them since very much the beginning of his presidency, wanting to not acknowledge the fact that the Russians had intervened in the election

in the first place in 2016 and to the scale of the Russian threat. And indeed, he's been putting political loyalists in place essentially to investigate the intelligence community. He's also sacked so many cabinet members and senior people in the key places that one would want to see pulling together as a cohesive team to tackle this kind of issue. And he's been at odds with other branches of government. Congress haven't been pulling together with either the executive branch of the Departments the departments of agencies either. This takes a whole of government effort and a whole of society effort.

May I say, I've interviewed you now a number of times, Fiona Hill. I have never heard you speak so openly in such an openly critical way of the administration you served? Has something changed? No, I think that really what we've had is more of an accumulation of facts to basically point out to people. I mean, what I've been trying to do all along, including last year, when I was testifying, is trying not to politicize everything. You're talking about in the impeachment inquiry? That's correct, because this is actually part of our problem. When we politicize Russia and we get into parties and fights, this is exactly when we lay ourselves vulnerable. And the whole message that I've been trying to get across is we need to pull together. And I think, you know, as we've sadly seen in the election and as the

election campaign has unfolded, that, you know, it's a national tragedy that we're facing now where our outgoing president clearly thinks more about himself than he does about the country and has made that extraordinarily clear to anyone who wants to look at it. And our failures have been laid open in a very, well, frankly, just a terrible way as a result of COVID. And, you know, now it's, I think, and I hope,

is an inescapable fact for everyone else to see. You know, I think, you know, part of the problem for many of the people who have been trying to speak out like myself at earlier times is, you know, you're painted as a disgruntled employee, as somebody with an agenda, you know, somebody who's taking a partisan position, because, you know, speaking out is seen as a political act. While speaking out as a

political act doesn't have to be partisan, you have to speak out on behalf of the country. And I think at this kind of stage, it should be inescapable to everyone about, you know, our failure to tackle COVID, our failure to get ahead of this kind of hack, our failure, frankly, to be able to hand off the presidency in a smooth fashion. President Trump is already talking about massive demonstrations on the streets of Washington, D.C. on January 6th and talking in the language of another country in another setting that people would say, hey, he's trying to basically instigate a coup. So, I mean, I think at this point, if the larger population has not quite got the message, then I feel like I've got to speak out a bit more strongly. That was Fiona Hill, who served on President Trump's National Security

Council. How to deal with Russia? It's a big question for the incoming Biden administration. It was only last week that Vladimir Putin finally acknowledged Joe Biden won the U.S. presidential election, a month after the results became clear. I think it's classic Putin. With him, who blinks first is always the main test. That is Konstantin Egert, a Russian political commentator. By not congratulating Biden for so long, he, in his eyes at least, proved that he's tough, he's strong, and if need be, he's ready to take the fight all the way to Washington. Biden and Putin have history. Recently, on the campaign trail, Biden called Russia the biggest threat to

America right now. And of course, Russia's interference in the U.S. presidential election in 2016 is a big reason for that. I don't think that there will be a lot of friendliness between the two men, but pragmatic dealmaking is completely possible. NPR's Russia correspondent Lucienne Kim has been following how the U.S.-Russia relationship may change during a Biden administration. Russian political analyst Stanislav Belkovsky says the Kremlin views the Biden administration as a continuation of the Obama presidency. He says the main lesson Putin learned from Donald Trump's presidency

is that even good personal relations between the two leaders could not stop bilateral ties from going into a nosedive. Belkovsky says all that counts now is the intersection of Russian and American national interests. One of those points of intersection is arms control. The New START treaty, the last agreement limiting U.S. and Russian nuclear weapons, expires in February. I think the number one priority has to be the extension of New START. Angela Stent, a professor at Georgetown University, says other priorities in the relationship are climate change and the future of sanctions. Another priority, clearly, for the Biden administration will be democracy promotion and human rights and global kleptocracy.

And these are issues where the relationship with Russia could well deteriorate. Konstantin Egert says Antony Blinken, Biden's pick for Secretary of State, will likely challenge his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov. Maybe he will be quite an unpleasant interlocutor for Lavrov, which may not be bad because the Russian political class only respects force and strength. But if Blinken represents Biden's strength toward Russia, the president-elect's son, Hunter, could become a liability. Hunter Biden is under a federal tax investigation.

He also sat on the board of Ukrainian Energy Company while Joe Biden was Obama's point man on Ukraine. Putin will use his online trolls and disinformation to use this story to weaken Biden. But on the other hand, if he feels that the current administration is prepared to talk to him, I think he will not overstep a certain limit. Stanislav Belkovsky says Putin is probably very happy with the results of the 2020 election. The reason, he says, is the political theater that has discredited American democracy in the eyes of the world.

NPR's Russia correspondent, Lucian Kim. You're listening to Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.