Consider This from NPR - The Georgia Indictment May Be Trump's Most Difficult Legal Challenge

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

A grand jury in Georgia has indicted Donald Trump for his role in failed efforts to overturn the state's 2020 presidential election results, implicating the former president as the head of a sweeping conspiracy to subvert his defeat. The indictment also includes charges against former Trump attorneys Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, John Eastman and Jenna Ellis, and former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, along with a number of so-called fake electors.In charging former President Donald Trump and his allies, Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is relying on Georgia's broad set of RICO anti-racketeering lawsIn participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University is committed to moving the world forward, working to tackle some of society's biggest challenges. Nine campuses, one purpose. Creating tomorrow, today. More at iu.edu. The fourth criminal indictment against former President Donald Trump is the most sweeping one yet. The indictment brings felony charges against Donald John Trump, Rudolph William Louis Giuliani, John Charles Eastman. That is Fulton County, Georgia, District Attorney Fannie Willis announcing the indictment late on Monday after a grand jury there charged Trump and 18 others, some well-known aides conspiracy to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election in this state. The indictments are the result of a two-year investigation, which all started in part because of a now-famous phone call. I won this election by hundreds of

thousands of votes. There's no way I lost Georgia. There's no way. We won by hundreds of thousands of votes. I'm just going by small numbers when you add them up, they're many times the 11,000. But I won that state by hundreds of thousands of votes. That's then-President Trump speaking back in January 2021 on the phone to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a fellow Republican, and his ask was pretty clear. Look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have, because we won the state. Consider this. The indictment against Trump in Georgia, a state criminal case, poses perhaps the greatest legal threat to the former president so far.

And yet he is still reaping political dividends as he's prosecuted for federal and state crimes. From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It's Tuesday C's apply. This message comes from Indiana University. Indiana University drives discovery, innovation, and creative endeavors to solve some of society's greatest challenges. Groundbreaking investments in neuroscience, climate change, Alzheimer's research, and cybersecurity mean IU sets new standards to move the world forward, unlocking cures and solutions that lead to a better future for all. More at iu.edu forward.

This message comes from Pushkin. In a new episode of the Revisionist History Podcast, how a right-wing organization tried to take over the Parent Teacher Association in the 1960s. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. It's Consider This from NPR. Here are some of the numbers we are keeping track of to do with this Georgia indictment of former President Donald Trump. 19. That is the number of defendants in this racketeering case, including Trump. 41. That's the total number of felony counts. And 4. That is the number of times Trump has now been indicted on criminal charges, all since March. My colleague Juana Summers spoke with NPR's Franco Ordonez and Sam Greenglass from member station WABE in Atlanta.

He's been covering the case there. She asked Greenglass what story the prosecutors are trying to tell with this indictment. What Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis is trying to show here is that Trump and his allies conspired to unlawfully change the outcome of the 2020 election. And she's deploying Georgia's RICO law, which is often used to target organized crime, to outline this wide-reaching racketeering case. It's a case that wraps in defendants from the inner ring of Trump's circle, like former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, to relatively unknown players, like some of the false electors in Georgia. The alleged crimes,

they range from forgery and false statements to computer theft, soliciting public officials to violate their oath. The indictment touches on more than 100 actions from Trump's infamous phone call pressuring Georgia's secretary of state to attempts to unlawfully access voting machines in a rural Georgia county. We're dealing with a lot of defendants here, but of course, the former president is the biggest. Franco, you've been covering Trump. What have you heard from him so far? Well, I mean, he's going after the district attorney professionally and personally. He's calling her, quote, out of control and corrupt. And like in past indictments, Trump is calling this a winch hunt and says the accusations are rigged. What is new, though, is that he announced today that he plans

to hold a press conference on Monday, and he says his team will release a detailed report on what he promises will be proof of election fraud in Georgia, which, of course, has been shown repeatedly to be false. And I'll just add that earlier today, the Georgia governor, Brian Kemp, also dismissed this, stating that in the three years, no one has been able to provide any legal proof of fraud. That's right. Let's stay with Georgia, Sam. In addition to Governor Brian Kemp, what else are you hearing from Georgia? What has been the reaction in the state to these indictments? Many Democrats see these charges as the first steps toward accountability for people they see as having

tried to chip away at their right to vote. Now, Secretary of State Raffensperger, a Republican whose call from Trump really sparked this investigation, said today that the most basic principles of a strong democracy are accountability and respect for the Constitution and rule of law. You either have it or you don't. Compare that to comments today from the chair of the Georgia Republican Party, who called the charges another weapon in the endless political wars. And I think, Juana, that that juxtaposition of these two comments, both from Republicans, really illustrates this ongoing rift in the Republican Party in Georgia and nationwide, which is a theme

to watch in 2024. Yeah, and I mean, we can't forget that we're really getting deep into campaign season here. First Republican primary debate coming up soon. Franco, former President Trump remains the clear frontrunner for the Republican nomination. He has not been shy about discussing these charges with his supporters, with the Republican base. Do we think that this latest charge will alter his campaign strategy in any way? I mean, not shy at all. And those who I have spoke with who are close to Trump's team say the answer is basically no. I mean, to them, this is another example of a hyper-partisan prosecution by a prosecutor who is a Democrat. Brian Lanza, he's a former aide to Trump and remains in very close contact with the campaign.

He says it doesn't change any of the dynamics, and he also makes clear what the stakes are for Trump. I mean, the strategy is simple. It's either the White House or the jailhouse. And so from Trump's line, you know, the line is in the sand, it's red, it's pretty clear we need to win this so we can, you know, successfully push back against these federal prosecutions,

most likely get the charges dropped and leverage whatever power we have over the states to drop those. And Lanza adds that like before, the Georgia charges are only galvanizing supporters and the team is raising a lot of money off the indictment. And Trump himself is using the case as just another example of why Republicans should nominate him to lead the party in a rematch against President Biden next year. OK, so what about the other Republicans who are seeking the party's nomination? At this point, most of them have avoided direct confrontation with the former president. Yeah, they have been very quiet this time. Also, on this particular charge, Florida

Governor Ron DeSantis has not spoken out. Former Vice President Mike Pence hasn't said anything about these charges. Senator Tim Scott was confronted today on the campaign trail. He basically defended Trump, repeating his claims that the government is being weaponized against political opponents. And, Juana, we've talked a lot about this, about the power that Trump has over the base of the party and the fear that his rivals have about confronting Trump. It's going to be very interesting at next week's debate. And we still don't know if Trump's going to show up, but we do hope to get some clarity about which candidates are really willing to take on Trump

because so far his top rivals have not. Sam, last word to you and Georgia. What comes next for this investigation now that the charges are out? District Attorney Willis says defendants have until Friday, August 25th, to voluntarily surrender. She says she'll ask for a trial within six months and that she wants to try all defendants together. I expect efforts from Trump to slow the case down, even move it to federal court. Considering to try all defendants together. I expect efforts from Trump to slow the case down, even move it to federal court. Considering the number of defendants, this Georgia case will likely stretch well into 2024. That was Sam Greenglass from member station WABE

and NPR's Franco Ordonez speaking with my colleague Juana Summers. In announcing the charges last night, District Attorney Fannie Willis framed them this way. The defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn Georgia's presidential election result. A criminal racketeering enterprise. If that sounds like something out of The Godfather, that is because Trump, along with his associates, is being charged under the RICO Act. That stands for Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. It was designed to allow prosecutors to go after mob bosses and organized crime involving multiple defendants. NPR spoke with Fred Smith Jr.

He's a constitutional law scholar and professor at Emory University's School of Law. He says Willis has successfully built cases on the RICO Act in the past. Ten years ago, she brought RICO charges against teachers and administrators who changed students' test scores and the like. And that was seen as somewhat bold and aggressive at the time, but those charges held. And as we speak, this office is bringing charges against a group called YSL, which is a hip-hop association of individuals that prosecutors are calling a gang. So we've seen this before. We have also seen one of Trump's co-defendants in this case, Rudy Giuliani, use RICO himself to go after mob bosses back in his days as a federal prosecutor. Smith says it is not so strange to use RICO in a case like this because Georgia's RICO Act is much broader than its federal counterpart.

In fact, Georgia's racketeering law is one of the broadest in the nation. And part of that is because the prosecutors simply need to demonstrate that there is an enterprise, meaning that these individuals were associated in fact, so they don't have to be a kind of formal enterprise. And all that the prosecutors need to show in order to bring a RICO charge is that these individuals were acting with a common purpose

and that they engaged in a pattern of illegal activities in order to achieve that common illegal purpose. That makes the bar for an indictment in Georgia under the RICO Act quite low. The prosecutors need to show a pattern, but under Georgia law, two illegal activities is sufficient to demonstrate such a pattern. So, so long as these individuals acted with a common purpose and a common scheme and engaged in that sort of pattern to achieve an illegal objective, that is sufficient to demonstrate a RICO charge. That is Fred Smith Jr., a law professor at Emory University. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.