Consider This from NPR - The meaning behind Israel's 'right to defend itself'.

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

"Israel has a right to defend itself and its people." It's a phrase that's been spoken by Israel's allies – and American presidents – for decades, especially in the days after Israel launched its war in Gaza after the October 7th attack by Hamas. But what do those words actually mean in a historically, politically and in the midst of Israel's incursions into Gaza and Lebanon. For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

It's a phrase that's been spoken by Israel's allies and American presidents for decades, especially in the days after Israel launched its war in Gaza after the October 7th attack by Hamas. Israel has the right to defend itself and its people. Israel has the right, indeed the obligation, to defend itself. Israel has the right to defend. As I said then, I say today, Israel has a right to defend itself. President Barack Obama echoed the sentiment during another conflict between Israel and Hamas a decade ago. I reaffirmed my strong support for Israel's right to defend itself.

When the U.S. was still reeling from the 9-11 attacks, President George W. Bush underscored Israel's right to retaliate after a suicide bombing back in 2002. America recognizes Israel's right to defend itself from terror. But what do those words actually mean, particularly in the midst of Israel's incursions into Gaza and Lebanon? Officials that Israeli ground forces have begun the process of crossing the border into southern Lebanon. Where thousands were injured and nine died after handheld pagers used by Hezbollah members exploded. It was an attack by Israel's Mossad and military against Hezbollah, unprecedented in its scale and nature. More than 40,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel

launched its war to destroy... Consider this. Politicians on both the left and the right have supported Israel's right to defend itself. Coming up, we unpack those words and what they may mean in the current moment. From NPR, I'm Juana Summers. Ever look up at the stars and wonder, what's out there? On Shortwave, we ask big questions about our universe. From baby galaxies to the search for alien life, we explore the celestial science behind these questions. Listen now to the Shortwave podcast from NPR.

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Capable of facing down all kinds of infection and disease, from managing UTIs to cancer to long COVID, our show is dedicated to destigmatizing our relationship to our bodies. Listen to the shortwave podcast from NPR. It's Consider This from NPR. Since the October 7th attack by Hamas, which killed over 1,200 people in Israel, the country has been fighting a war in Gaza that's killed over 40,000 Palestinians. And this month, Israel launched a ground assault into Lebanon against the Iran-backed militant group Hezbollah. Israel has received international outrage over its aggressive military campaigns in the Middle East, but many of Israel's allies continue to speak of the nation's

right to defend itself against its enemies. But what does a right to defend itself mean in a historical and political context? To answer that question, we called up Ambassador Dennis Ross. He spent more than a decade as the Mideast Special Envoy for both the George H.W. Bush and Clinton administrations. Ambassador Ross, thanks for joining us. Good to be with you. Thank you. So, Ambassador, when I think about this refrain that Israel has a right to defend itself that we hear quite often, I think that a part of it is grounded in this notion of Israel being the small nation that's surrounded by enemies. In addition to Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon, there's of course Iran,

which backs Hezbollah. Hezbollah in turn controls militant groups in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, all of whom oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Historically, does this picture of Israel as small and vulnerable register with reality? Well, certainly historically it does. Israel, when it was born, meaning when it declared itself a state, was small, was beleaguered, was quite poor, and was surrounded by countries that were a combination of numerous with armies that were dramatically larger than Israel's. And the reality of Israel being small and surrounded by those who felt it should not exist was part of the, I think, the ethos, part of the definition of the reality that Israel faced. And

one of the reasons I think there was support for Israel to be able to defend itself. Over time, Israel obviously became a much stronger country, became the most premier military in the region, certainly the strongest military in the region. So small and beleaguered is not really the way to describe Israel. On the other hand, Israel is the only country in the region where there are other states, meaning Iran, with its proxy groups who are all dedicated to Israel's destruction. A combination of countries that reject Israel's right to be there and groups that reject Israel's right to be there and their determination to act on that, I think, has contributed to the sense that Israel has a right to defend itself. Conditions have changed some. There's the historic peace deal with Egypt. Israel now has a forceful military. Do you think that given those things,

and everything that we've seen since the Hamas attack on October 7th, do you think that people hear the phrase, Israel has a right to defend itself differently than they may have heard it or seen it some years ago? I definitely think the way the war has gone, the level and nature of destruction within Gaza, some of the current bombing in Beirut, raises questions in the mind of many internationally about not that Israel has a right to defend itself, but clearly they raise questions about the way Israel chooses to carry out that right, to act on that right. The issue of international humanitarian law is a complicated one because on the one hand, you have a right to hit targets where there may well be civilian casualties, given the way militaries or these

non-state actors position their military forces. But you do have an obligation to try to minimize the consequence and the scope of civilian casualties. Many, I think, question whether or not Israel couldn't do a better job of trying to minimize the civilian casualties, then for sure one thing they could have done a better job on, at least in Gaza, was trying to ensure that humanitarian assistance would go to Palestine. And there, I think, as the administration has demonstrated again, they're not satisfied with what the Israelis have been doing in terms of trying to minimize at least the cost to those who have been forced to move around, have been evacuated, and having their basic needs still addressed.

Meanwhile, on Tuesday, the Biden administration sent a letter to Israel warning that if aid is not allowed into Gaza, it would withhold weapons. How could Israel's enemies in the region respond if the U.S. were to indeed start withholding those weapon shipments? I do think that Israel understands that it's going to have to find a way to respond to this. The way the letter was written, it says that it does bring into question whether or not what the Israelis are doing with our weapons is consistent with American law, and the administration is required to report to the Congress on how Israel is, in fact, performing consistent with that law. Any curtailment of assistance to Israel at this point,

when they're still in the midst of a fight, when they're dealing with the reality that they intend to respond to 200 ballistic missiles being fired at Israel by Iran. This is the last thing the Israelis need is to see any questions raised about whether or not they will have a continuing resupply by the U.S. This war began in retaliation against the Hamas attack on October 7th, and now Netanyahu not going to destroy Hezbollah or Hamas any more than we could destroy ISIS. You can militarily defeat them in a way that they are no longer a threat, in a way that they lose their capacity to control, in the case of Hamas, Gaza, in the case of Hezbollah, Lebanon. If that's the aim, it becomes easier to understand and defend what the Israelis are doing. If the effort is somehow tied to a belief that you can eradicate these

groups, you're not going to do that. Instead, you'll end up creating more recruits for them. And I think it's important that the Israelis, again, from the standpoint of how others internationally will see them, important for them to show increasingly how what they're doing is connected to a plausible, incredible political outcome. Ambassador Dennis Ross, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. This episode was produced by Mark Rivers. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yannigan. And one more thing before we go. You can now enjoy the Consider This newsletter. We still help you break down a major story of the day, but you'll also get to know our producers and hosts and some moments of joy from the All Things Considered team. You can sign up at npr.org slash consider this newsletter.

It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Juana Summers. On the Embedded podcast, every Marine takes an oath to protect the Constitution. Against all enemies, foreign and domestic. This is the story of a Marine in the Capitol on January 6th. Did he break his oath? And what does that mean for all of us? Listen to A Good Guy on the Embedded podcast from NPR. Both episodes available now.

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