Consider This from NPR - The state of Hamas on 3 fronts: troops, governance and narrative

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the war in Gaza can't end until Israel has destroyed Hamas.NPR's reporting from Israel and Gaza suggests that goal is still a long way off.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Benjamin Netanyahu has been clear about what victory in the war in Gaza looks like to him. Almost immediately after the attacks of October 7th, the Israeli prime minister vowed to crush and destroy Hamas. We're going to resign them to the dustbin of history. That's my goal. That's my responsibility. That's what I'm leading the country to do. As the death toll from Israel's operation has grown, Netanyahu has repeatedly pointed to that goal, the destruction of Hamas, to justify continuing the war. Here he is in an interview with CNBC last month, arguing that an operation in Rafah was essential to Israeli security.

Those who tell us stop the war now, you know, leave Hamas in place, leave those four battalions in Rafah, are saying, enable Hamas to regroup, recapture Gaza and threaten you again. Here in the U.S., President Biden has generally supported Netanyahu's goal. So Biden's public announcement last week was a bit of a shock. I want to give an update on my efforts to end the crisis in Gaza. He said Israel offered a ceasefire proposal that could lead to a permanent end to the war. The implication being the war would end before Hamas is completely eliminated. To be clear, Israel had not publicly talked about that proposal, let alone outlined its terms in any detail. We can't lose this moment. indefinite war in pursuit of an unidentified notion of total victory,

will not bring Israel, will not bring down, will only bog down Israel and Gaza, draining the economic, military, and human resources, and furthering Israel's isolation in the world. This week, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller underscored that this was an Israeli proposal. Israel has made clear they are committed to this proposal. They made clear to us they were committed to this proposal before they sent it. They have made clear to us since they sent it that they are committed to the proposal. Publicly, Israel's position is murky. Netanyahu's governing coalition and his political survival depend on ultra-nationalist politicians who will not accept ending the war before Hamas is completely eliminated.

And in a statement released this week, Netanyahu insisted that the destruction of Hamas is part of Israel's ceasefire proposal. Remember, Hamas itself would eventually have to agree to those terms. Consider this. Netanyahu says the war can't end until Israel has destroyed Hamas. Our reporting from Israel and Gaza suggests that goal is still a long way off. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro. It's Consider This from NPR. Hamas has been under attack for nearly eight months.

That's eight months of Israeli airstrikes, ground operations, and a dramatic clampdown on supplies headed into the Gaza Strip. So how is Hamas faring? Does Israel's goal of eradicating Hamas look attainable? NPR's Daniel Estrin dug into this question from Tel Aviv. We looked at how Hamas is doing on three battlefields. First, the actual armed battle. Hamas released this video with a menacing soundtrack. You see two Israeli soldiers crumple to the ground. Hamas says it shot them in a part of North Gaza that

soldiers invaded at the beginning of the war but then left. Hamas regrouped there, and Israeli troops are back again. U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff General C.Q. Brown in a briefing. The Israelis did not actually, once they cleared it, didn't hold. And so that allows your adversary then to repopulate in areas if you're not there. And so that does make it more challenging for them as far as being able to meet their objective of being able to militarily destroy and defeat Hamas. Analysts say Israel has dealt a major blow to Hamas infrastructure. Hamas hardly fires rockets into Israel anymore.

Israel's destroyed many Hamas tunnels, though estimates vary on how many are left. What Hamas does still have are boots on the ground. An Israeli military official tells NPR about half of Hamas combatants remains active. Other Israeli analysts say the number is even higher. Former Israeli National Security Advisor Eyal Hulata. This is not an army that could be crippled once the command chain is broken. Terrorist organizations don't surrender. They resurrect, and we should expect that to continue.

As long as Hamas feels the time is on its side, this is what we will see. We also looked at the governing battlefield. Is Hamas still able to govern Gaza and control civilian affairs with the mass displacement of residents, the humanitarian crisis, and Israeli troops on the ground? This is a video in Nusayrat camp. NPR producer in Gaza, Anas Baba, documented a long line at an ATM and a guard wearing a baseball cap and black face mask. He's a member of a committee that prevents chaos and theft during the war.

These committees are believed to be quietly affiliated with Hamas because Hamas would challenge any alternative Palestinian group trying to take its place ruling the population. Hamas government media spokesman Ismail Thawabteh tells NPR that Hamas still has a civil servant workforce, about 25,000 employees, including new hires to replace those who have been killed in the war. Hamas has managed twice during the war to disperse partial salaries to its civil servants. Its economy ministry is imposing controls on prices of goods and preventing price gouging, since food and goods are so scarce. Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Galant. Hamas maintains civilian control over Gaza.

He said, as long as Hamas retains control over civilian life in Gaza, it may rebuild and strengthen. Then there's the narrative battlefield. What image can Hamas project eight months into the war? It takes credit for international diplomatic victories. Hamas official Razi Hamad tells NPR it was the war Hamas began October 7th that has led Spain, Norway, and Ireland to symbolically recognize a Palestinian state. Hamad says this is a message to the Western-backed Palestinian Authority

that has tried to achieve independence through peace talks. He says negotiations with Israel are getting us nowhere. Only sacrifices and resistance can strengthen the Palestinian position. Inside Gaza, Palestinians perceive Israel's war to be against them, not against Hamas. Sami Mahdi is affiliated with Hamas's rival, Fatah. He says Israel is not interested in eliminating Hamas. It's interested in destroying Gaza, interested in destroying you as a civilian. Israel and the U.S. accuse Hamas of manipulating the war to its benefit, embedding among civilian areas,

and benefiting from the international pressure on Israel when civilians are killed in airstrikes. Israeli analyst Michael Milstein says Israel's control of Gaza's border with Egypt can cut off a lifeline to Hamas. But he says Israel cannot defeat Hamas without a prolonged occupation of Gaza. I think that today we must be frank enough to admit that we have no willingness and we have not even a capacity to promote the total occupation of Gaza. So we have no other choice but to promote the deal right now. To cut a deal with Hamas for the release of Israeli captives in exchange for Israel releasing

Palestinian convicts and detainees from jail and withdrawing from Gaza. He says the defeat of Hamas can wait. Maybe after a year, two years, we can promote more serious strategy in order to implement the goal of erasing the governmental and the military capabilities of Hamas. In Gaza, former Hamas advisor Ahmed Youssef offers a sobering assessment of Hamas.

He says Hamas's military wing miscalculated the consequences of its surprise ambush October 7th. The scale of the attack, he says, gave Israel a pretext for, quote, the annihilation of the Palestinian people. NPR has interviewed Gaza residents who are angry at Hamas for launching the war without a plan for protecting them. Youssef, the former Hamas advisor, says this may be Hamas' last military confrontation and that Hamas would not regain the strength it once had.

He thinks Hamas will instead seek to be a player in Palestinian politics, transformed but not defeated. NPR's Daniel Estrin in Tel Aviv with reporting by Anas Baba, Abu Bakr Bashir, and Itay Stern. This episode was produced by Connor Donovan and Lina Muhammad with audio engineering by Tiffany Vericastro. It was edited by James Heider and Sammy Yenigan, who is also our executive producer. And if you haven't heard, Consider This is now a newsletter. Like on the podcast, we'll help you break down a major story of the day. You'll also get to know our producers and hosts, and we'll share moments of joy from the All Things Considered team.

You can sign up at npr.org slash consider this newsletter. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.