Consider This from NPR - The targets of Trump's DOJ are already paying a price

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

At President Trump’s public urging, the Justice Department has brought criminal charges against some of his perceived political enemies. NPR Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson explains that for those targeted, a prosecution can mean steep financial and emotional costs, even if they ultimately win in court.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Email us at [e-mail] episode was produced by Connor Donevan and Michael Leavitt, with audio engineering by Damian Herring. It was edited by Anna Yukhananov and Justine Kenin. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Defending yourself against criminal prosecution can get expensive. Just ask President Trump. Legal fees. I have $100 million worth of legal fees. And they're doing good. At least I have good lawyers. That's Trump at a rally in 2023. At the time, he was facing indictments in two federal cases, plus state charges in New York and Georgia. Trump, of course, is personally wealthy. Plus, his political action committees contributed tens of millions of dollars to his legal

defense. He even fundraised off news of those indictments. The only crime that I have committed is to fearlessly defend our nation from those who seek to destroy it. So the legal defense wasn't financially ruinous to Trump personally, but it cost a lot, even though he hasn't faced criminal fines in any of those cases. The Justice Department walked away from the federal cases against Trump when he was re-elected. The Georgia case has stalled. And he was convicted in the New York case, but it's sentencing came after he was re-elected, so he received no fines or prison time. But he won't get back all those fees paid to his lawyers.

That's just how the justice system works. Now, at Trump's public urging, the Justice Department has brought criminal charges against some of his perceived political enemies, like former FBI director James Comey. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial. Consider this. Even if the targets of Trump's Department of Justice

are ultimately vindicated in court, facing a prosecution comes with real costs. From NPR, I'm Melissa Nadwarnie. It's Consider This from NPR. So we mentioned FBI director James Comey. The Department of Justice also secured an indictment against New York Attorney General Letitia James, another of President Trump's political opponents. And the White House has been signaling more cases may be on the way. So we wanted to ask our justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson, about the cost of mounting a criminal defense.

Hi, Carrie. Hi there. So first off, how much does a good lawyer cost in this situation? Lawyers tell me there's no golden rule here, but there are a bunch of factors to consider what charges a person faces where they are in the country. Defense lawyers will have to review transcripts, FBI files, and get ready to cross-examine witnesses. Lisa Wayne is Executive Director of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. She's done 150 trials during her career. Most people have to figure out out of pocket and figure out, do they have the savings? Do they have friends and family that can help them? Do they take mortgages on their homes? It can be a very stressful situation for most individuals. I spoke with three other veteran criminal lawyers who said for these kinds of high profile cases, it could cost a million to $5 million at a small firm and much more at a big law firm where some partners charge $2,500 an hour.

Those kind of bills could reach $25 million or more. Wow, that is a lot of money. Did people facing these kinds of charges have other options? Sometimes the former FBI director, Jim Comey, is being represented by his old friend, a former prosecutor called Patrick Fitzgerald. At his old law firm, Scadden, Fitzgerald might have commanded more than $2,000 an hour, but he's retired now working for himself and can set his own rates or even donate his time. Then there's California Democratic Senator Adam Schiff. Schiff is a longtime Trump critic who helped

investigate President Trump during his first term in office. Now Schiff is under federal investigation. Here's President Trump talking about that recently at the White House. It looks like Adam Schiff really did a bad thing. They have them. Now let's see what happens. The issue here is that Schiff has homes in both California and Maryland closer to the Senate. Schiff says he accurately filled. out the paperwork and consulted with lawyers and mortgage companies. His attorney, Prit Barara, a prominent former prosecutor in New York, says these allegations are false, stale, and long debunked. Even so, Schiff has created a legal defense fund to help pay his bills. A White House spokeswoman

said the DOJ is on the right track. She says the Trump administration will continue to deliver the truth to the American people while restoring integrity and accountability to the justice system. Carrie, speaking of justice, who is doing the investigating at the Justice Department right now? And what do we know about their approach? The key figure is Ed Martin. He is a lawyer from Missouri who has had more experience in politics than in the courtroom. He could not get confirmed by the Senate to be the U.S. attorney in Washington, in part because of his support for the people who rioted at the Capitol in 2021. Instead, he got a different job in charge of the weaponization working group at DOJ.

Here's what Martin said as he started that job. There are some really bad actors, some people that did some really bad things to the American people. And if they can be charged, we'll charge them. But if they can't be charged, we will name them. And in a culture that respects shame, they should be people that are shamed. That is not the way the DOJ policy has worked in the past. Prosecutors are not supposed to be bad-mouting people. They can't charge with crimes.

But that seems to be the way this DOJ in the White House are approaching Trump's perceived enemies this year. So we've been talking about dollars and cents of someone's defense. But what about other costs with being charged with a crime? The emotional pressure on people in these situations can be really intense, not just a defendant, but also his or her entire family. They're in the spotlight, sometimes having to sit there and take it while people say terrible things about you. And then even if someone wins an acquittal, they've really been through the ringer. Think about DC lawyer Michael Sussman. He was investigated by a special counsel in connection with his work for Hill. Hillary Clinton's campaign. A jury in D.C. found him not guilty of making a false statement of the FBI after two weeks of trial. Here he is outside the courthouse after he won in 2022. Despite being falsely accused, I'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. As you can imagine, this has been a difficult year for my family and me. But right now, we are just

grateful for the love and support of so many during this ordeal. Back in the 1980s, the former Labor Secretary under President Reagan faced fraud charges, but he was acquitted by a jury. He famously said then, which office do I go to to get my reputation back? That was NPR Justice Correspondent, Carrie Johnson. Thanks, Carrie. Thanks for having me. This episode was produced by Connor Donovan and Michael Levitt. It was edited by Anna Yukonanof and Justine Kenan. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Melissa Adwarnie.

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