Consider This from NPR - The White House keeps firing immigration judges. He is one of them

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

President Trump is purging the immigration court system. About 140 immigration judges have been fired by the administration or resigned. Meanwhile, the case backlog is growing. What does it mean for immigrants caught in the middle? We speak with one of the judges recently let go.The firings are part of an ongoing effort by the White House to overhaul the U.S. immigration system. Now, those judges are being replaced by “deportation judges.”For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Email us at [e-mail] episode was produced by Daniel Ofman and Karen Zamora, with additional reporting by Ximena Bustillo and Anusha Mathur. It was edited by Christopher Intagliata and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's Elsa Chang. The emails have probably already hit your inbox, but real quick, before we start the show, today is giving Tuesday. Thank you if you have already stepped up to support NPR during a pretty difficult year for us when we saw the loss of federal funding for public media. There are so many of you, like Shane in Arizona, who says, quote, most days I listen to up first and or consider this first thing in the morning. I have enjoyed this content for years. now without donating. But as my tax dollars no longer support it, I must do my part to support independent journalism. Thank you so much, Shane, for coming to that realization. And thank you, listener, if you've already made your gift or if you are an NPR Plus supporter. If not, make your giving Tuesday gift right now and sign up. MPR Plus is a simple recurring donation that gets you perks to NPR's podcasts. And you'll be supporting public media while you listen. Join us at plus.npr.org. And now to today's episode.

For several immigration judges these days, their last day on the job sounds pretty similar. I received the email. You know, I kind of froze for a moment, read it multiple times, took it in. My voice was shaking. My hands were shaking. My mind was racing. And I gave the decision. and I dismissed everyone without mentioning anything.

I had about 30 or 40 immigrants in my courtroom. I had DHS. I had court staff. I was on the bench on the record. I had just finished explaining all to the group, like, their rights and responsibilities. The interpreter who was in the courtroom with me, He had been in many hearings with me, and he just started crying, and he said, I can't believe this is happening. Those were former immigration judges, Anom Petit in Virginia, Tanya Niemer in Ohio, and Kira Lillian from California.

They are among a growing number of immigration judges that have been fired by the Trump administration this year. Those judges are being replaced by, quote, deportation judges. The changes are part of an ongoing effort by the White House to, overhaul the U.S. immigration system. These judges speculate as to why they were let go, but no one was given a reason for why they were actually let go. Here's Lillian again. Anyone who ever represented a non-citizen at any point in their lives, that seems to be

the indelible stain that got them fired. In a statement to NPR, the agency within the DOJ that oversees immigration judges says that if a judge shows, quote, systematic bias, then the... agency can, quote, take action to preserve the integrity of its system. Consider this. About 140 immigration judges have been fired or have resigned. Meanwhile, the case backlog is growing. What does it mean for immigrants caught in the middle? Coming up, we speak with one of the judges recently let go. From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang. It's Consider This from NPR.

Immigration judges are a bit different. They work inside the executive branch at the Department of Justice, not the judiciary branch, meaning they're not independent from the president. And they represent the last chance for immigrants to argue why they should stay in the United States. But now the number of immigration judges in the U.S. is dropping. In the last two weeks, the Trump administration has fired more than 10 judges. Joining me now to talk about this is Jeremiah Johnson. He's one of those judges who was recently fired just before Thanksgiving.

Welcome, Judge Johnson. Thank you for having me. So I just want to start with what happened to you personally. How were you notified of your firing? And were you provided any explanation for why you're being let go? I was actually in a meeting with most. my ACIJ, my supervisor immigration judge, when a legal assistant had walked by and told us that judges were being fired, I wasn't told of who at that exact time, or wasn't myself, but then I ended up down in my chambers later on, turned on my email and found out that I was one of the judges who had been fired. So I was notified via email. And shortly thereafter, without even the ability to print that letter, I was locked out of the system.

Oh, wow. And did that email explain why you were being fired? Pursuant to Article 2 of the Constitution, the Attorney General had decided to remove me from my position. That was the only explanation given. And no thank you either. Well, NPR recently analyzed the professional background of some 70 judges who were fired through early November. And we found that judges who only had work experience defending immigrants were fired at a much greater rate than those who only had experience working for the Department of Homeland Security. I'm curious, what do you make of that data? It appears to me that the immigration judges who are being fired have experience in immigration law, their professional judges, experts in immigration law, and policy.

There were hiring trends in the past that favored Department of Homeland Security prosecutors and others over those with removal defense, so maybe the timing of the hiring may have something to do with that. But I do know when I was fired on the day I was fired, the colleagues of mine also had background in the Department of Homeland Security. So you see this among all judges, professional judges, different backgrounds. And so that trend gives me pause, but I'm not certain that's the reason because the Attorney General gave no reason, just indicated that it was in her decision to remove. Well, we should note that in response to that NPR reporting, I just cited, the Department of Justice told us, quote, it does not target or prioritize immigration judges for any personnel decision one way or the other based on prior. experience. So let me ask you, does that square with what you're seeing, what you're, you've just

described? What I think you're seeing is that immigration judges with experience are being targeted, are being fired. Experience as to either immigration defense or immigration prosecution? No, as immigration judges themselves. First, you saw people being fired who had two years probation on the bench. Now you're seeing other judges who have experience in the law in the same day that we were fired, you have ads promoted by the Department of Homeland Security for deportation judges. So what I think you're seeing is an attack on judges themselves, the court system themselves. I was just going to ask you what you think the cost of these departures will be, because there were about 700 immigration judges at the start of this year. And since then, about 140 of them

have been fired or have resigned, according to the immigration judges union and NPR reporting. Is the immigration court system at a breaking point? Not at a breaking point. I would say a warning point. I do remain optimistic in the future because it is in the law that removal proceeding shall be conducted by immigration judges. Immigration judges are still on the bench. I think Congress needs to be asking those points to the department. I think the American taxpayer should also be asking those questions. There are currently a very large backlog of cases that need to be heard. Yes, millions of cases. So, I mean, what are some possible solutions that could help get through that back? creating an independent immigration court hiring more investing in immigration courts right now you're seeing a divester almost hiring temporary immigration judges or reallocating military personnel while the nij and immigration judges appreciate the help we want to make sure that those people are qualified and receive the proper training and experience so I think there is a way forward

And that's with investment in the immigration courts. And we're not seeing that right now. But if I may push back, I mean, given this massive backlog of cases, why isn't the Trump administration's approach, this approach of firing judges and hiring new ones, worth trying? Well, they're not hiring. We saw a number of temporary immigration judges. And the administration also then has lowered the standards for hiring those immigration judges. There has not been a replacement of the number of immigration judges.

So I don't think you see the investment in immigration courts. It's not just this administration. It has been a long-going neglect of the system that needs to be righted. Well, to return to your own firing, what happens to all of the immigration cases that were on your desk? They just get instantly reassigned? They are reassigned, as my understanding. I was shut out the system at that time, so I don't have any input, but I do know the morning that I was fired. I was hearing cases previously heard by another immigration judge who had been fired.

So I was hearing those type cases. So the domino effect continues. Your cases have been reassigned to now even more overburden judges. And I was handling not only my docket in San Francisco. I had been assigned a detained docket. So I was doubling up my docket. So every day I was hearing cases from Arizona of persons being detained, including national security cases that were ready for decisions this week.

but are not going to be heard or not going to be decided on time by the judge that heard the case. So I see the approach is not working. Are you saying that you believe the Trump administration's recent firing of so many judges is only exacerbating the already big problem of backlogs of cases? Yes. But can you just put in very human terms for us when there is a massive backlog of immigration cases, of millions of immigration cases. What does that mean for the individual

whose case is just withering away waiting for a judge to consider it? They're left in legal limbo, which not just before the courts, but their personal lives are placed on hold. These are people, most of them, cases that involve asylum, people seeking refuge here in the United States.

And they have no finality in that decision, and families are separated, people want to move on with their lives and resettle, and they need a decision one way or the other, and the rule of law needs to have and to give them that decision, and that's why they came here for that decision, and so these people are stuck waiting. Some of them have been waiting many, many years to begin with. I'm right. Hearing cases that I accepted from a previous immigration judge eight years ago, And they are finally getting around to being heard and then have to be reset. That is Jeremiah Johnson, the executive vice president of the National Association of Immigration Judges.

Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you. This episode was produced by Daniel Offman and Karen Zamora, with additional reporting by Jimenez Bustillo and Anusha Mather. It was edited by Christopher and Taliatta and Courtney Dorney. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Elsa Chang.