Consider This from NPR - The Women Of 'Succession' And Reflections On Navigating Corporate Sexism

Episode Date: December 22, 2021

The HBO show Succession is compelling in part because it portrays a world most of us will never see: the backroom deals between cutthroat billionaires and their fraught family relationships. But the show's dark comedy also gives us insight into the world we all inhabit, and how that world treats women across a spectrum of relationships.From entrenched sexism to performative feminism, writer Flannery Dean explains the different forms of misogyny on display in Succession. (Note: Spoilers ahead for those not caught up on the latest season!) Then, actor J. Smith-Cameron – who plays the character Gerri Kellman – discusses navigating through the toxic machismo of Succession's world, and how she made the role her own. In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment that will help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

There's a scene in the most recent season of HBO's Succession that says a lot about what the women in that series are up against. For context, the show centers on a family, the Roys, and the giant media company Waystar Royco. It's run by patriarch Logan Roy, who's played by Brian Cox. And due to a very public scandal and a federal investigation, season three finds Logan attempting to step out of the spotlight. We throw them this. I'll step back as CEO. So he taps the long-suffering senior counsel and usually the only woman in the room, Jerry Kelman,

to take over as interim CEO. She's played by actor J. Smith Cameron. Hey, Logan. Okay. Okay, well, yes. Yes. Now, the Roy family has one daughter, Shiv, played by Sarah Snook, and Shiv feels snubbed by the decision, thinking it was her time to step up. Which gets us to this scene. Logan is arriving back to New York and chooses to ride home from the airport with Shiv, who's still upset about being passed over. I want to get you in before the shareholder meet. High level.

President. Logan makes Shiv an offer. Uh-huh. What does it mean? It means whatever you want it to mean. Okay. So made up. My eyes and ears, Shiv. With one critical caveat. But wearing a full chemical and biological suit going by the name of Jerry Kelman. He played on Shiv's narcissism. Flannery Dean wrote about the misogyny on display in Succession for The Guardian. But he also knows this is a good strategy. I can use one woman to get rid of another or to make one woman feel like she's more important to me than another. Succession is compelling in part because it gives us a view

into a world most of us will never see. The backroom deals between cutthroat billionaires and their fraught family relationships, even if it's just through a dark comedic lens. But Dean says it's also compelling because the brutal reality on display gives us insight into the world we all inhabit, whether we like it or not. This is a show about male power and of a specific brand, a very primitive archetypal brand that's very resonant still. Consider this. A show about male power is also a show about the people kept down by that power. Coming up, we'll talk about the women of Succession and hear from the actor who brings one of them to life.

I thought it was like a funny little character quality that Jerry could have, you know, sort of one of the guys, but you could tell that she thought they were all idiots. From NPR, I'm Adi Cornish. It's Wednesday, December 22nd. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. It's Wednesday, December 22nd. It's Consider This from NPR. Succession wrapped up its third season on HBO earlier this month.

What was so interesting about season three to me was that it was an explicit and implicit question, what is the value of women? Writer Flannery Dean again. And I thought it was just fascinating how little market value the women were granted. According to Dean, the show gives us a sense of what might happen when money and power are prioritized above all else. And in that world, the women who fare best are the pragmatists. They know their value and they use it skillfully. I was quite humiliated by his infatuation with that woman.

For instance, Marsha Roy, Logan's estranged third wife, played by Hiem Abbas. At the start of the season, Logan had recently cheated on her, but for PR purposes, he was desperate for them to be on good terms. And she understood that she had leverage at that moment. For my return to be public, I will need my role on the trust finalized, my daughter taken care of, and improvements in my financial position. And she used it, not to win, but to get paid. Logan is kind of an old school misogynist. He doesn't try very hard to disguise his intentions.

But his son, Kendall, played by Jeremy Strong, has a different approach. He's attempting to unseat his father and, in doing so, surrounds himself with a team of women, including a high-profile lawyer who, after giving him a reality check, is immediately fired. Okay, okay, okay. So, Comfrey, Lisa's out. Turns out she's a toxic person, you know? And once I get the new Legal Aid team in place, we got to put that out with the right context, okay? Okay. Yeah, it's not a big deal. He felt like this crew of women made him a justifiable feminist icon, but in actual fact, he just wanted a bunch of yes women around him. Through all the flavors and layers of sexism, one woman seems to be particularly adept.

Interim CEO Jerry Kelman somehow manages to keep some sense of order through all the chaos. Like when the FBI shows up with a search warrant at company headquarters. There's about 20 of them down there. Why don't we just ask them if they can come back tomorrow? Logan, they are coming up. And if you don't open the door, they will kick it in. And if you don't open the filing cabinet, they will pull out a crowbar. This is a show of resolve.

And there are cameras outside, and they do not need to see the FBI meeting any resistance. What do we say? Logan does what Jerry tells him to do, which puts her in a class by herself because this is a character that doesn't listen to anyone. Now, Jerry is played by J. Smith Cameron, who says originally the role was written for a man. So when she took it on, she found a way to embrace the bro-y language and outsider status. And I thought it was like a funny little character quality that Jerry could have if she was, you know, sort of one of the guys.

But you could tell that she thought they were all idiots and that she was, you know, like like rolling her eyes, not not clutching her pearls. Smith Cameron's Jerry doesn't clutch her pearls, but does, like everyone else on the show, work to consolidate power. It's something we spoke about when we met over Zoom. One of the lines from your character, I think it was this season, and we'll get into some of the relationships in a moment, but she says something like, you have to think about how does this advance my position? You have to be thinking about that 24-7. And it seems like such a different way of living. You know, I don't know, you're someone who, you know, you came up in theater, and that seems like maybe a more kind of collective supportive environment. Definitely. But is there something to what she's saying? Is there something to that for women in power?

I definitely think so. I mean, I think that has had to be her credo because or she might not have survived. And also, I think that's just it's almost something like I feel like her job must feel a bit like spies who have like a legend that they have to memorize who they are and stick to it. Or it's a survival thing, like they will die or they'll be shot or they'll be disappeared in some way. And I feel like it's almost that kind of pressure or that's what it feels like to Jerry. Survival in the Roy's world may be one of the things at the heart of the unusual and somewhat dangerous relationship Smith Cameron's character has with the youngest son, Roman, a wildly inappropriate flirtation. And for those who are wondering, Cameron Smith says Roman's feelings are not reciprocated. I tolerate it or I try to see how it could work to my

advantage or I try to contain it, you know. Cameron Smith and I talked about a relationship that could turn out to be much more dangerous for her character, the one with the Roy daughter, Shiv. Sorry you've been home all this year. It's just something I want to get, you know, really clear about what's going on, you know. And most importantly, to see if you're okay. Uh-huh. It's not a big deal. Yeah, I just want to get things clear for my dad, you know? God, this must be so hard for you.

It's fine. Do you want to... She's going to be encouraged to perhaps file a claim of sexual harassment against Roman. But this is a character who all of a sudden, after years of being very careful, is, like, in the middle of the street. Like, it seems like, you know, the corporate bus is coming.

There's all this potential upheaval and you being in such a delicate position as interim CEO, if you can't deal with your own sexual harassment, I mean, it's not a good look. I can cope. Again, just, it's a character that I feel like could only be played by someone with your experience. And how did you think of this dynamic between a certain kind of woman who came up in a certain kind of feminist politics and Shiv, right, who sort of weaponizes those same politics? Shiv is coming for me, but it's, I obviously know she's not concerned for me as she's pretending to be. And, you know, as CEO, I mean, if I'd felt compromised by a coworker such as Roman, I would have reported it to my superior and called HR.

This is weird. Cause you like just became became Jerry as I asked you this question. Like your pacing changed. All of a sudden, it looked like you were in a deposition, very carefully answering these questions. I watched it happen just now. I'm a little unnerved. Well, because I researched this. So I think in the past, I think she's thought, well, I'm the boss, so I can't get fired. But she is uneasy. That's why she keeps telling me to cut it out, cut it out, cut it out. And I think she's almost more worried about him getting in trouble. It's funny because it's not the first time we've seen that daughter character use the language of feminism to kind of attack another woman. Yeah. Or betray another woman.

To say, oh, well, you wouldn't want this to happen. You wouldn't want that to happen. And the whole time you think, like, this person actually doesn't care. But they're using the language, right? Yeah. And it feels like a character that could only exist in 2021. That's a good point. It's too bad because I think Shiv is so smart.

And it, you know, would have made a good protege maybe. But isn't that, that's always a story or maybe a story that some of us are trying to get rid of, right? That there can only be one in the room if you're the minority, right? Whatever that is. I know. When it seems so obviously like more and more and more and more and safety in numbers and more and more. You've talked about theater being your great love. And so I'm wondering at this point in your career, how has this being on a show like this or being on television kind of made you think differently about your craft or even help you understand how far you've come? Kind of where are you in your own acting?

Yeah, I think it has. It's when when a scene goes really well on this show, for me, it feels like we've done nothing. Like we're just horsing around. It feels really. And so sometimes I think it was a little too easy. Why was that so effortless? Why did that kind of just flow? And then I think maybe that is the years of experience and the fact that you're working with these really great professionals and you're just kind of, all you have to do is sort of be there in the space and react to them.

So sometimes I feel like, gosh, I don't know how that scene is going to turn out. Cause it felt like I didn't do any, like, you know, it felt like we're just horsing around and then I'll see later. You never think, gosh, I don't know how that scene is going to turn out. Cause it felt like I didn't do any, like, you know, it felt like just the horsing around and then I'll see later. You never think, gosh, I'm pretty good. Well, no, but I mean, I'm like, oh, well maybe that's suitable to this medium. And like, maybe that is years of experience that you can now forget the technique and just kind of let go and be in the moment. And I suppose that does come from having done something for decades. I don't think about myself that way, but, you know, I've got to learn something

after 40 years. J. Smith Cameron is known as Jerry Kelman on HBO's Succession, which wrapped its third season earlier this month. You're listening to Consider This from NPR. I'm Adi Cornish.