Consider This from NPR - TikTok vs. Everybody

Episode Date: April 8, 2023

Whether you're a politician, a mental health expert, or a parent, it seems everyone has a problem with TikTok. Some concerns stem from the social media platform's addictive qualities or its effects on one's mental health. Critics have also noted dangerous video trends. Members of Congress in both parties are calling for a ban over fears that the Chinese government could harvest Tik Tok user information. And many states and colleges have taken steps to regulate the platform. But for tens of millions of Americans, TikTok has become a part of their lives, providing entertainment, news, and even community. Are the threats to ban TikTok missing the point? Host Scott Detrow talks to Mark Pocan, a Democratic Congressman from Wisconsin, and Rebecca Jennings, who covers internet culture for Vox.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation, working toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all on the web at theschmidt.org. Lately, it seems like a lot of people have a big problem with TikTok. Your technology is literally leading to death. You know, you say you're benign, you want to do good things for the public. So let me ask you, what about a commitment that says that you won't sell the data that you collect? Politicians. You know, the longer you stay on it, some research has shown you tend to get more extreme content.

And psychologically, you end up in this space where you really feel compulsively you have to now go on and on and on. Mental health professionals. I can't be there to make sure that TikTok's best interest is my children because I know it's not. And parents. TikTok is under attack and some of the concerns are very real. Some TikTok video trends have even proved fatal. The one that has gotten the most press is called the Blackout Challenge, where you literally try to choke yourself until you black out. And at least 15 children who are under 13 have died from this. Rebecca Jennings covers internet culture for Vox. All of this stems back to this carrot that TikTok dangles in front of people,

including young people especially, that you could get famous if you have a hit video. We'll hear more from Jennings later on. But here's what's been happening lately. A lot of members of Congress are calling for a ban on the Chinese-owned social media platform over fears that the Chinese government could harvest TikTok user information. Nearly half the states in the U.S. have banned the app on state-owned devices. Colleges and universities have taken steps to regulate the platform. Colleges in Idaho, Texas, and Florida have blocked its use on school devices and campus Wi-Fi.

Utah has become the first state to sign legislation limiting access to social media apps by teens. And last week, Utah passed a law that would require parental consent for minors to use platforms like TikTok and Instagram. For tens of millions of people, losing TikTok would be a very big deal. People like Ty Virtus, when one of his songs went viral, it changed his life. My first song that I posted to TikTok was Stuck in the Middle. And then five months later, I had a record deal. And then I had another one in 2022.

And it is very fast for an artist who just started putting out music. You get to skip a couple of steps. Or Yasmin Akhmeen, a ballet dancer who started creating videos during the pandemic in order to reach out to a community that was experiencing the same uncertainty she was feeling. I talk a lot about personal struggles that I've had with being like frustrated or like slightly burnt out or struggles with like body image. So it's really nice to have that platform to connect with people that are going through things that sometimes you feel like you're alone in, but you're not really alone. Consider this. Life without TikTok, at least in the United States, feels more and more within the realm of possibility. Even the Biden administration has threatened a ban unless Chinese owners divest their stakes in the platform.

But does TikTok deserve these threats or are the fears overblown and misplaced? The concerns that are raised about TikTok are not unique to us. That's coming up. From NPR, I'm Scott Detrow. It's Saturday, April 8th. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today, or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply.

TikTok, first and foremost, is an app that's beloved by millions of Americans across the country. Michael Beckerman is vice president of TikTok. So of course, he has a stake in the platform's future in the U.S. Beckerman says the company has a plan to ensure that U.S. data would be managed in the U.S. and kept completely separate and independent from TikTok's Chinese parent company. Americans' data would be stored securely here in the U.S. with access protocols that are tighter than any existing app or tech company at the moment. And I think, again, that would address all the security concerns that people might have. And no surprise, Beckerman thinks that banning TikTok would be a big mistake. I think that's going to be very unpopular with

Americans across the country. You can't censor hundreds of millions of Americans when there is a comprehensive solution. I think in many places across the country, TikTok is much more popular than any member of Congress that's looking to ban it. And I think that's an important point. Mark Pocan, a Democratic congressman from Wisconsin, also thinks a ban on TikTok is misguided. I spoke with him about what he sees as the disconnect between what millions of mostly young users see as an entertaining social platform and what some of his colleagues see as a serious threat. This is kind of the classic difference of what a member of Congress is and what the country is. There's a real issue out there, and we should be addressing our privacy of our data across all social media platforms. The problem is we see the bullseye in front of us and then they're shooting 90 degrees to the left or right, trying to figure

out how to address it by trying to ban a platform. In reality, we have to take on all the platforms to make sure that we're protecting people and the privacy of their data. But, you know, what we're doing isn't even close to that. So it seems like you're saying that the personal information being sucked up by TikTok is happening. But your point is that this happens on Facebook. This happens on Instagram. This happens on Twitter as well. And I see that. But there's the specific question here with TikTok of the Chinese government and its interactions with the company.

What's your response to that? They haven't shown us anything yet to say that's being done, right? Normally, we would have classified briefing or some sort of briefing if that was the case. That hasn't happened. But, you know, what is happening is Congress, the average age, I think, is 57 and a half. And if you asked, I would guess somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of members have never been on TikTok, but they certainly have lots of opinions. And this week, I think we had a relatively cringeworthy hearing where members, you know, asked questions about does TikTok access your internet and, you know, is the leader of China your boss and all sorts of other really crazy questions,

which is what often happens, as you know, on a lot of different technology issues. You know, members of Congress, especially, you know, and some of these committees are not probably the most well-versed on these issues. Coming up, we weigh the pros and cons of TikTok. It is pretty addicting, so I don't love the way that, you know, it's a complete time suck. But in general, I'm mostly like in awe of what people have been able to do on there. That's when we return. Rebecca Jennings covers internet culture for Vox and has followed TikTok since it was first introduced in the U.S. in 2018. What you saw a lot on early TikTok was just kind of, you know, random teenagers who were doing kind of like cringy videos and older people who were doing these trends that were like just a little bit weird, a little silly. And it was mostly like you watched those people because it was like, what kind of person does this and puts this on

the internet? TikTok still has plenty of videos like that. But over time, and especially once the pandemic hit, more and more people began to use it. I asked her if there was a specific moment that marked a turning point in the platform's popularity? I think, honestly, no. But I would say the pandemic forced a lot of older adults to figure out what it is, because you get a lot of families that were home together, and it's a lot of like, hey, what are you looking at on your phone? What's TikTok? You know, like, let's do a little dance together. I think that was a really watershed moment. Yeah. But I think ultimately, the real turning point for TikTok was when it produced its first celebrity to break out of the platform,

and that was Charli D'Amelio in late 2019. I am Charli D'Amelio, and you might know me from TikTok. Charli has nearly 150 million followers on TikTok, and she has more than 11 billion. Yep, that's what they what the big billion likes on her videos. And so I think once that happened and the wider like business and entertainment industries realized that, you know, this app was producing real marketable stars, that's when it kind of got like professionalized in a way. Um, and ever since then it's, it's been what it is. Did that change the feel of TikTok in your mind? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think when that happened, there was a lot of people who joined the app

in the hopes that they might be able to replicate someone like Charli D'Amelio's success. And of course, TikTok is really hard to predict what will happen. And yeah, it's certainly possible that it can pluck you out of the ether and make you famous overnight. But it sort of diminishes the appeal when, you know, all you're seeing on your feed are people who are clearly like trying to get famous, as opposed to just people who are randomly like really funny or whatever. So you recently wrote a piece for Vox called Has TikTok Made Us Better or Much, Much Worse? And I really enjoyed reading it and I like the approach you took.

And I'd like to kind of just mirror the format of the piece because you were very even handed. And at first you listed all the positives and then you listed all the negatives. I think we've touched on some of the positives already, the humor, the feeling of community. What else landed on the positive ledger for you? Yeah. So, I mean, one thing that is really unique about TikTok is that it doesn't really send you notifications unless you, like, happen to be blowing up on, like, a video of yours happens to be blowing up,ckon you in all the time in the way that Instagram or Twitter does by sending you like constant notifications, like you may have missed this.

And if you scroll for, you know, more than an hour, TikTok will tell you to like, please log off. Like you need to go do something else. I mean, you can still scroll, but it will just offer that little suggestion. I do think that like TikTok is such a powerful device for communication, like in like a really meaningful sense. Like, I mean, political communication, it's so, it's so wild because there are no other apps that allow someone with like zero followers

potentially to spread their message as far and wide as it can, as the TikTok algorithm will allow, which is like a snowball kind of method for reaching people. And so it's a really powerful organizing tool. It's a really powerful tool for anyone who, any like random person who wants to say something, whether that's something about like their own community or something that's going on that, you know, more people should be giving attention to. And so in that sense, it's just like, it's a really like form of joyous kind of activism. It's like an outlet for people. It's, it's really, it can be really helpful for people who are queer and questioning or trans or any, any like kind of grappling with their identity in some way,

because it offers perspective into a person's life that you may never have met in the real world. But let's get to the negative. You mentioned earlier that the algorithms play so much more of an important role in TikTok than other platforms. There is a serious downside and possibly at times dangerous side to algorithms giving us a view of reality that is not reality, especially when it comes to news and information and basic facts about the world. Right. And it's like, if you watch enough TikTok, you'll just see this version of the world that's so distorted and so kind of depressing. Like, it depends on what side of TikTok you're on, really. Like, my algorithm personally is, like, pretty pleasant. That's a lot of like kittens. Thank you. But I have a co-worker

whose algorithm is all like horrible murder stories and like creepy kidnappings and horrible weather events. And I think like, because algorithmic content rewards, you know, the most extreme versions of things, like, you know, like the prettiest person that you've ever seen will show up on your For You page as will the most horrible tornado that you've ever seen. You know, it's like you think that the world is full of these black and whites and these really extreme things happening and it can make you kind of really disoriented and depressed. And that's what travels far on TikTok because that's appealing to like human beings' most base instincts for what we want to see. So it's a really powerful tool for

that. You're very even-handed in your article. I want to try and be pushy. And if you had to choose the pro or con, do you have a choice? Well, I think the the end kind of point that i was making is that like it's it really has very little to do with tiktok i think like all of this is bad to be honest like i'm i'm very like you know i'm more anti-tech than a lot of tech adjacent journalists might be and not in any like sort of weird way but just in the sense that smartphone culture and social media culture have completely like zapped our brains in the way that they have always intended to do. Because all they care about is how much time and engagement you spend on their own platform. Because as it said a billion times, like we are the product if we're not paying for it. And so what these companies owe

is more to their advertisers rather than us as users. And so we're basically like allowing our brains to be like harvested for anything by companies that don't have our best interests in mind. I'm one of our White House correspondents, and sometimes I'll be traveling with the president in the presidential motorcade. And there's always this striking moment when I look out the window and there is not a single person standing on the sidewalk watching him go by who is not watching through their phone. And that to me, like there's so many other examples of this, but to me, it's like, wow, no one is just looking with their eyes. Everyone is creating content in this moment. Yeah. And it feels so like Pollyanna-ish to point that out because it's like,

yeah, we know, like we've been talking about this for 20 years, but it's true. I mean, some things are cliches for a reason and there are things we can do about that. But I personally don't think breaking up TikTok or banning TikTok is the answer. That was Rebecca Jennings. She's a senior correspondent who covers internet culture for Fox. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Kauffman Foundation,

providing access to opportunities that help people achieve financial stability, upward mobility, and economic prosperity, regardless of race, gender, or geography. Kauffman.org.