Consider This from NPR - War Crimes Seem Evident In Ukraine, But Accountability Is Challenging

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

Reports of civilians being tortured and killed — and the accompanying images that have surfaced this week in the city of Bucha — have raised questions about potential war crimes committed by Russian forces in Ukraine. The Biden administration is assisting international investigators in looking into potential war crimes. And some experts say the evidence of such crimes is clear in this highly-documented conflict. But history shows that drawing a straight line between war crimes and heads of state is challenging. NPR's Scott Detrow spoke with senior researcher at Human Rights Watch, Yulia Gorbunova, about her reporting of alleged human rights violations in Russian-controlled parts of Ukraine. NPR's Julie McCarthy examines what constitutes war crimes and the prospects of Russian President Vladimir Putin being held to account.In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community. Email us at [e-mail]. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation, working toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all. On the web at theschmidt.org. The streets of Bucha are littered with ash from burnt buildings and vehicles. So much ash, my colleagues in Ukraine report that it feels like walking on sand. On a press tour arranged by Ukrainian officials, you can hear a dog barking beside its owner, whose home was destroyed. No one's home escaped damage. Volodymyr Avramov's home saw some of the worst. And we'll warn you now, this episode does include disturbing details

about the violence and destruction in this war. I started extinguishing the fire. I tried to. You can see it right there. He said Russian troops threw a grenade in his window. The first night they came and yelled, come out of the house. They said, hands, show your hands. Avramov, his daughter and his son-in-law walked out, hands in the air. The Russian troops, whose government has accused Ukrainians of being Nazis, started asking, who are you? Where are the Nazis? There are no Nazis here, he told them.

Then the Russian troops took his son-in-law, Oleg, to the road. And Avramov says they shot Oleg in the head. Avramov says he and his daughter fled to a neighbor's home. They would stay there for the next month without so much as a change of clothes. That whole time, his son-in-law's body lay in the street. I don't know how I held on, he says. The explosions, living in a basement, I was ready, he says, to walk out and just get killed. As Russian troops retreat from other cities in Ukraine, it's likely that harrowing stories like Avramov's will continue to surface from other parts of the country. Consider this. Ukraine's president has accused Russia of carrying out genocide in Bucha.

President Biden says he would like to see Russian President Vladimir Putin tried for war crimes. But history shows that drawing a straight line between war crimes and heads of state isn't easy. From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It's Thursday, April 7th. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today, or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. It's Consider This from NPR. So this week we have seen several developments in the war in Ukraine. Russian troops pulling out from the outskirts of

Kiev, disturbing new images of the toll of this invasion, and now a new pledge from the U.S. about how it will respond. We have seen the dead bodies of civilians, some with bound hands scattered in the streets. We have seen the mass graves. U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland at a press conference on Wednesday. The world sees what is happening in Ukraine. The Justice Department sees what is happening in Ukraine. Today, we are assisting international efforts to identify and hold accountable those responsible for atrocities in Ukraine, and we will continue to do so. Garland says the Justice Department is helping investigate possible war crimes committed by Russia in Ukraine. The advocacy and research group Human Rights Watch has been looking into alleged human rights violations in Russia-controlled areas of Ukraine, too.

Basically, we conducted our investigations in a number of ways. That's Yulia Gorbunova, a senior researcher at Human Rights Watch. Earlier this week, she spoke to my colleague Scott Detrow, who is in Ukraine. We gather witness testimonies, as many as we can, and we make sure that we get corroborating testimony. We analyze very carefully, you know, images and photographs that we ask people who witness the potential grave abuse to send to us, to share with us. We analyze images that we get from open sources and,

you know, very carefully verify them, especially considering the amount of, you know, falsified images and sort of old images that people are trying to make look like they're just, you know, events that just occurred. There's quite a lot of that. So it's very thorough work that we have to do. One thing that's come up a lot as we've traveled across Ukraine the last few days is that, you know, we're learning about Bucha because Russia pulled back from it and the Ukrainian military liberated it. It may not be unique.

It may just be the place that Ukrainian officials and reporters are able to see right now. And I'm wondering, are you thinking about that? And what are you bracing for going forward? No, absolutely. I mean, that's definitely incredibly concerning. You know, I feel that this may be just the tip of the iceberg. It's likely that there will be much more cases like that to document in days and weeks to come as Russian forces retreating and Ukrainians are retaking these areas and more information comes to light and more people who are able to speak about what happened come forward. President Biden said that he would like to see Russian President Vladimir

Putin tried for war crimes. As far as Human Rights Watch is concerned, what do you want to happen next? What do you think should happen next? We think that it's absolutely essential giving the evidence of war crimes and serious human rights violations committed by Russian forces in Ukraine. It is absolutely essential that there is a swift and impartial investigation. And that would be an important step to holding Russian authorities accountable for their actions. Senior researcher at Human Rights Watch, Yulia Gorbunova, speaking to my colleague, Scott Detrow. We're going to hear now more about the horrifying scene in Bucha, again in detail. We're also going to hear more about what actually constitutes a war crime

and what any of it means for the international community's chances of holding Russian President Vladimir Putin accountable. NPR's Julie McCarthy explains. With revulsion deepening at what Russia is doing in Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelensky rebuked the UN this week. Where is the security in the Security Council, he asked. Members were silent as he invited them to watch this video on the civilian toll of Russia's invasion. The hand of a corpse pokes out from a shallow grave in the winter cold. Burned bodies are piled willy-nilly. An old woman steps past a dead body splayed on the sidewalk. The grisly

tableau captures the aftermath of Russian soldiers withdrawing from cities like Bucha. War crime expert Philippe Sands says it appears that in Ukraine, the laws that govern the conduct of warfare have been violated across the board. But he says a fundamental war crime that stands out here is the targeting of civilians. We're seeing terrible images of ordinary apartment buildings being shelled, of civilians who appear to be bound and shot in the head. Those cross a line. Criminal law experts say murder, rape and torture, all alleged against Russian troops in Ukraine, constitute potential war crimes. So too does interfering with corridors set up for civilians to flee the fighting, something Russians have repeatedly done

in the besieged city of Mariupol, where the mayor now says 5,000 civilians have been killed. International law expert Melanie O'Brien says the carnage suggests crimes against humanity, distinguished from war crimes by their scale. Crimes against humanity are crimes that are committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack on a civilian population. Crimes like murder, rape and deportation. A third category of crime is genocide. President Zelensky says Russia is guilty. But O'Brien sees Putin more focused on a territory grab than in the destruction of the Ukrainians as a people. The International Criminal Court, the prosecuting body for crimes related to war, is already collecting evidence. Philippe Sands says,

while it's fairly certain that war crimes have occurred, the bigger question is who's responsible and whether ICC prosecutors can pin what's called command responsibility on President Putin. And that's a much more difficult task. And what a prosecutor would have to prove is that Mr. Putin has either issued orders for the targeting of civilians, or in the face of information that civilians are being targeted, doing nothing to stop it. Sands refrains from calling Putin a war criminal. But I would add simply that it doesn't look good for Mr. Putin, because it seems hard to imagine there is not knowledge at the top about what is going on. But Sands says drawing the nexus between war crimes and heads of state is painstaking. Liberian President Charles Taylor's conviction took over a decade.

The case against Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic was just as arduous. But Mark Ellis, president of the International Bar Association, says in this most documented war in history, he's confident there will be a reckoning. International law plays the long game. And in the short term, it may be viewed as overwhelmingly challenging. But we've seen time and time again that international justice eventually does work. Court watchers, however, caution patients holding Putin to account. Having pulled Russia out of the ICC in 2016, Putin is not expected to answer any possible international arrest warrants. If Putin stays in power, of course, he's never going to put

himself on trial for the crimes he has committed. Melanie O'Brien believes that only a change of regime in Moscow can compel Putin to appear before the court. NPR international correspondent Julie McCarthy. Earlier in this episode, you heard reporting from Bucha. That came from NPR's Nate Brott. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Kauffman Foundation, providing access to opportunities that help people achieve financial stability, upward mobility, and economic prosperity, regardless

of race, gender, or geography. Kaufman.org. Support for NPR and the following message come from Carnegie Corporation of New York, working to reduce political polarization through philanthropic support for education, democracy, and peace. More information at carnegie.org.