Consider This from NPR - What Happens After The Protests In Iran?

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

"This kind of dissent? It doesn't go away." That's what NPR heard from a 20-year-old woman on the street in Tehran.Mary Louise Kelly and a team of producers traveled there last week to see what life looks like, and what remains of the protests that shook the country for months, sparked by the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini. Amini died in police custody after being detained, reportedly for improperly wearing a headscarf, part of Iran's strict dress code for women. Human rights groups say the regime cracked down on those protests with killings, arrests and executions.In Iran, NPR found people frightened of the regime, but who felt nevertheless compelled to air their grievances.We speak with Ali Vaez, an Iran expert with the International Crisis Group, about the lingering discontent behind the protests and what could happen next.Find more of NPR's reporting from Iran.In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Last week, I talked to two women on a sidewalk in Tehran. A mother and a daughter aged 63 and 41. I flagged them down because they were doing something simple but radical. They were strolling with their hair uncovered, defying the mandatory dress code for women in public in Iran. You're not wearing hijab. Is that new? Did you wear one before the protest? Yes, before. I use it, but right now, no.

When did you take it off? Do you remember? Maybe three or four months ago. After the death of Masa Amini. Masa Amini, of course, is the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman who died in police custody in September. She was arrested, reportedly, for not wearing her headscarf correctly. Her death sparked months of protests in Iran, demands for personal freedoms, economic opportunity, even for an end to the country's

theocratic regime. The government cracked down on the protests hard. Hundreds killed by security forces, rights groups say. Thousands of protesters jailed, that's according to the UN. But here, outside a mall on a drizzly Tuesday, a 63-year-old woman is still sending a message. The only thing that I can actually do at this age and what I can do now is to not have a scarf. To have the scarf or to not have the scarf for me is not very important. I'm not young to show off my hair, but I'm not wearing it to show that my views are against the government's views. What has the reaction been from your friends, from the rest of your family? I have respect for a hijab.

I want to not wear the hijab myself, but my hair isn't dyed. And then I told her, my hair isn't dyed as well. Just take the hijab off. Consider this. The regime may have put a lid on the protests, but frustration, desperation and anger are bubbling away beneath it. On the streets of Tehran, people tell us this isn't over.

I don't think that Iran will ever go back to before Mahsamni's death. They might try, but the society will not ever go back. We have suffered so much and we have become so brave that we will never go back. From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It's Friday, February 17th. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today, or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. It's Consider This from NPR. One night last week, I was in my hotel in Tehran, working, writing up a story when explosions crackled across the sky. It was the eve of Revolution Day, marking the anniversary of the 1979 revolution,

and the regime was kicking things off with a fireworks display. But as we leaned out the windows to listen, it was another sound that stood out. Death to the dictator, they're chanting. Death to Khamenei. Freedom. Anti-government chants, the same ones shouted at the protests that have shaken Iran in these five months since the death of Masa Amini. That moment, straining to listen, straining to hear who was chanting, watching for other windows softly

opening and closing in the apartment buildings around us, it encapsulated the fault lines in Iran. It told a very different story from the one Iran's government has worked to promote about what is happening in the country. We're going to spend these next 10 minutes considering the state of dissent in Iran. Where do the protests go from here? We're going to spend these next 10 minutes considering the state of dissent in Iran. Where do the protests go from here? We're going to take you now to three places. First up, we leave Tehran, drive straight south about five hours, and arrive in Isfahan. That's a city of some two million people in central Iran. We've been told the shopkeepers of Isfahan are famous for making you buy something without you're even noticing.

And sure enough, within a few hours of arrival, we find ourselves in the bazaar chatting with a carpet seller, who, like others we interviewed for this story, we have agreed not to identify by name. He showed us his English workbook. He's taking a class, but you'll also hear our interpreter jumping in. How is business? Now is not good. Four months ago, five months ago, a little better.

And how much do you think this has to do with Masa Amini? Masa Amini. She's changed life in Urania. How? Well, they killed her. What can I say? You're very quiet. Is it scary to talk?

Yes. I really cried for her. Three days. Three days? Yes. Because the whole nation loved her. You didn't know her, so is it because of something she represented to you? What was that? She's now a symbol.

Symbol. Symbol. Of what? Iranian people. Woman life freedom. Can you tell me why are you frightened to say this? Because I'm here in Iran. Because I am here in Iran, he says.

A few steps outside his shop, in the middle of Isfahan's magnificent Naksha Jahan Square, I meet a woman, 21 years old, sharing french fries out of a waxed paper cone with a young man who looks like he's trying hard to impress her. Nice to meet you. Welcome to Iran. I ask about the protests. She says they have struggled from lack of leadership. I mean, still, we don't have a proper leader. We didn't find anyone. I mean, an actual leader who loves people. It's hard, and our government won't go easily but we will replace them. May I ask did you protest? Were you involved? Not as much because you know my family didn't let me. It was so

dangerous but at university somehow you know like walking and saying that we want our right back. How do you express that in a way that other people can hear it, in a way that the government might hear it? You know, there were a lot of students there. We walked all around the university and we told some words, just telling them that, not setting on fire things, not breaking down anything, just walking and telling our rights. Peaceful protest.

Yeah. She says everything might look calm and normal in Iran, but the outrage, it's not over. The government arrested some people. They tortured them. So it's normal that teenagers and people get back to home and not coming out anymore. But it is not completely finished. Okay, stop number two. Back in Tehran, we are making our way out of the labyrinth of the Grand Bazaar and in search of lunch when we spot a group of women not wearing the mandatory headscarf, so defying the law in Iran. We stopped to talk. One of the women, 36 years old, told me through our interpreter that she did not join the protests, at least

not physically, but she was active online. I have to go to court tomorrow. Why? For what? To sign a contract that she won't do it again. Because of what I was doing in Instagram. You will sign the statement? I have to. Are you still on Instagram? I have to stop for a while. Because if I sign the statement, then I will have to be silent. Are you worried about speaking to us, American broadcaster?

Unfortunately, the situation at this time is that we are a bit worried about everything. A bit worried about everything. Our last stop is North Tehran, an hour-plus drive in the city's famously snarled traffic. I meet a 20-year-old woman studying psychology at university. So she has focused on the stress, the trauma that Iranians are carrying after these recent months of protests, and then the crackdown on the protests,

and now uncertainty over what the future holds. What you'll hear here is just the voice of our interpreter translating. I wonder, does life feel different now? Has it changed for you in any way? The psychological effect and pressure that has been imposed on the Iranian people, perhaps we will see the effect of this psychological pressure later on. Have the protests touched your life or have you been involved in any way? This is a political question. This is a political question. She pressed her lips together, looked pointedly at our audio recorder. We put it away. Why are you here? She wanted to know. A journalist asking these questions. Because I'm curious, I told her. I

can see the protests have largely gone quiet, but I wonder if the anger that fueled them has. Another pause, and then she said, this kind of dissent, it doesn't go away. So many questions raised by that young woman and the many other people we interviewed during our time in Iran. We're going to talk through some of them now with Ali Vyas, who is director of the Iran Project at the International Crisis Group. He has been listening along with us. I want to welcome you, and I want you to start with that point she made, that the dissent does not go away. As you know, many Iranians, both inside and outside Iran, wanted these protests to be different from ones that have come before, wanted them to become more than protests, to be a revolution. the streets. The numbers did not reach critical mass. We're talking about tens of thousands of people on the streets, not hundreds of thousands and not

millions. But again, as I said, it was not a revolution on the streets, but it was a revolution on the mindset of the Iranian people, because I think now there is critical mass within the society in understanding that this is a regime that is not open to reforms, that it is not able to meet the underlying grievances that gave rise to these protests. This is going to turn into almost a continuous cycle of protests. And there might be ebbs and flows, but it's not going to go away. And eventually, this stalemate will have to be broken in the interest of the Iranian people because of the simple fact that it's now the majority of the people who want fundamental change. What role, if any, should the U.S. play here? Because we interviewed some people who said,

why isn't the U.S. doing more to help my country, to help democracy? We talked to plenty of other people who were very skeptical about American motives. They point back to 1953 and the U.S. helping to overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran. What, in your view, should the U.S. do? Look, I think we have to accept the inconvenient truth that its record of regime change, especially in that part of the world, is nothing but abject failure. The words Afghanistan and Iraq spring to mind. Go on. Absolutely. But also other cases, Libya, Syria, there's a long list of U.S. failures. The critical point here is that while the U.S. has an impact in terms of what kind of policy it adopts, but it's not the determining factor here. The determining factor is really what the Iranian people do,

because in 1979, the U.S. did not want regime change in Iran, and yet it happened. In 2011, the U.S. did not want regime change in Tunisia or in Egypt. And yet those regimes were toppled. Let me end by circling back to where we began. And that carpet seller, Enes Fahan, and his belief that Masa Amini and her death have changed Iran. To the best of your ability, trying to track things from outside the country, is that true? Absolutely. But I do believe that if it wasn't because of Mahsa Amini's tragic death, there would have been another trigger. There's just so much pent-up frustrations within the Iranian society. It was a ticking bomb, and it was just a question

of time before it would go off. In many ways, when I look at Iran right now, I feel it is where the Soviet Union was in the early 1980s, not late 1980s. Early 1980s in the sense that it's a regime that is ideologically bankrupt. It is at a political dead end. It is just simply unable to address its deep economic and social problems. But it still has a will to fight. Ali Vyas of the International Crisis Group. And there's a link to more of our reporting from Iran in the episode notes. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.