Consider This from NPR - What happens if Antifa is labeled a foreign terrorist organization

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

In a public roundtable, President Trump asked his secretary of state, Marco Rubio, to apply the designation to Antifa.NPR's Ryan Lucas reports that it could have enormous consequences, including making it illegal to provide something as meager as a bottle of water to what the Trump administration deems to be Antifa.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org.Email us at [e-mail] episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam and Connor Donevan, with audio engineering by Josephine Nyounai. It was edited by Justine Kenin and Krishnadev Calamur. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Since he took office, Secretary of State Marco Rubio has made heavy use of three very powerful words, foreign terrorist organization. Today we have designated as terrorist organizations. He outlined some of the tools that this designation unlocks at a press conference in Ecuador last month, where he announced that he was adding two drug cartels to the list he's keeping. One is Los Lobos, and the other is Los Choneros. We've designated him as foreign terrorist organizations, and that brings with it all sorts of options for. A big one, finances. It means that we can now, number one, go after the money, the properties, the banking system of anyone who's related to these groups. Another, it opens up intelligence sharing with foreign governments.

Which is very valuable when you're trying to wage war against these vicious animals, these terrorists. So far, Rubio has designated 19 new foreign terrorist organizations. Compare that to four during the entire Biden administration. and a lot of them have been drug cartels. This is a dramatic shift from how previous administrations use this designation. Unlike, say, al-Qaeda or Hamas, drug cartels are motivated by profit, not politics or ideology. These are not narco-traffickers. These are narco-terrorists who terrorize the countries they operate in.

Now President Trump is talking about using the foreign terrorist designation against a domestic movement. He's opened the door to using this powerful tool. against Antifa. Consider this. A foreign terrorist organization designation for Antifa could have massive consequences for freedom of speech in the U.S. From NPR, I'm Juana Summers. It's Consider This from NPR. If this news creates a sense of deja vu,

it's probably because President Trump already designated Antifa a domestic terrorist organization just last month. The thing is, there's no domestic terrorism statute in federal law, so the real-world effect of that move is unclear. Designating Antifa, a foreign terrorist organization, is different. It comes with real legal teeth, and it could have enormous repercussions across the country. And that's what the president is talking about doing now. And here's Ryan Lucas has the story. Earlier this month, President Trump welcomed right-wing influencers to the White House for a roundtable about Antifa, the far-left movement or ideology, opposed to fascism.

Some of the influencers gathered around the table urged the president to designate Antifa as a foreign terrorist organization. Would you like to see it done? Yes, Mr. President. Do you think it would help? They have foreign lengths all across Western Europe. I think it's the kind of thing I'd like to do. If you'd like to, does everybody agree?

If you agree, I agree, let's get it done. Okay? Let's get it done. Marco, we'll take care of it. The Marco Trump mentions there as Secretary of State Marco Rubio because it's the State Department that has the legal authority to designate foreign terrorist groups. Jason Blasakis led the office at state that is responsible for those decisions during the Obama and First Trump administrations.

I do think it would be a highly dangerous step for the administration to pursue. Blasakis says there are certain legal criteria to designate a group a foreign terrorist organization, including that it is indeed a cohesive organization. In the case of Antifa, Blasekis says it is not a functioning group like ISIS or Al-Qaeda, which had clear leadership and a hierarchy. Instead, he and other experts say Antifa isn't an organization at all. It's more of a movement of disparately linked people who share an ideology, which is that fascism is bad. I would really call on the State Department or the U.S. government to tell us who the leader of Antifa is and where they are based. The State Department also would have to demonstrate that Antifa is engaged in terrorism and that it is a foreign group, not inherently domestic.

If there is a domestic nexus that represents a significant domestic presence of that group, you wouldn't be able to proceed with a designation. Still, Blaseka says the Trump administration could make a creative argument, or as he puts it, stretch the truth, in order to designate Antifa as a foreign terrorist organization. If it succeeds, the reverberations would be massive. Thomas Brzeowski, the former Council for Domestic Terrorism at the Justice Department. It would have an immediate legal impact. Then it would have a cascading effect across civil society, including social media organizations, civic organizations, and everything in between. The most immediate impact would be the ability for federal prosecutors to bring the criminal charge of material support to a designated terrorist organization. Material support is broadly defined and can mean something as small as a $10 gift card,

or a bottle of water. That charge, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years in prison, could be brought against anyone associated with what the administration deems to be Antifa. Again, Brzeowski. When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill-defined and nobody even knows what it is, and it potentially includes all activity that can be painted as left-wing or whatever term you'd like to hang on it, that becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody. That's just the criminal liability. Then there are what Brzeowski sees as the potential cascading effects.

Social media companies, he says, could take steps to restrict any communication that could be seen as related to Antifa, if it were to be designated a foreign terrorist group. The companies also could build mechanisms to report such activities on their platforms to the government. That really, in today's environment, obviously, is going to dictate in many respects what the broader public sees and what they don't see. Universities, meanwhile, could cancel conferences that touch any topic that might conceivably relate to anti-fascism, he says, and faculty research could be curtailed. Then there are the insurance firms that insure universities, nonprofits, progressive think tanks, and foundations. They're not going to insure these institutions. If they touch anything where they remotely concerns anti-fascism, and think about how broad that is. What does it even mean?

It sounds crazy, Kafkaesque, but that's what this designates. nation would bring him to play. All of these ripple effects, of course, depend on the Trump administration following through and designating Antifa a foreign terrorist organization. And in Brasowski's view, there's good reason to believe they will. The president himself, during a roundtable at the White House, turned to a senior advisor whose job it is to designate these entities and instructed them to do it on TV. So, yeah, I think they might do it.

People aren't ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I'm telling you. Unbelievable. Ryan Lucas, NPR News, Washington. This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam and Connor Donovan with audio engineering by Josephine Neonai. It was edited by Justine Kennan and Krishnadev Kalimer.

Our executive producer is Sammy Yannigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Juana Summers.