Consider This from NPR - What should the future of federal immigration enforcement look like?

Episode Date: February 15, 2026

As lawmakers, and people around the country, grapple with what federal immigration enforcement should look like, Janet Napolitano, former DHS Secretary under President Obama, talks about the future - and the past - of ICE.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Email us at [e-mail]. This episode was produced by Henry Larson and Kai McNamee. It was edited by Sarah Robbins. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

The Department of Homeland Security or DHS is in a shutdown, which, depending on how long it lasts, may impact airport operations, disaster response, and cybersecurity. Well, won't stop our immigration enforcement operations, even though the shutdown happened because of a congressional deadlock over the Trump administration's immigration crackdown. To restore trust in ICE and Border Patrol, they must admit their mistakes, be honest and forthright with their rules of engagement, and pledged to reform. That's Republican Senator Rand Paul during a Senate Homeland Security Committee hearing last week. Acting Immigration and Customs Enforcement Director, Todd Lyons, testified during that hearing.

In regards to every law enforcement operation, of course we go back, we look at lessons learned, we always look back. You know, at the end, the ownership of that is mine. ICE has faced intense scrutiny after immigration agents shot and killed two U.S. citizens in Minneapolis last month. I did give my condolences to the family,

I mean, it's requested to meet them personally to give my condolences on behalf of the officers and agents involved. Democrats have refused to approve funding until new restrictions are put in place, like requiring immigration agents to wear body cameras and to carry judicial warrants for raids. Most Republicans have so far wanted fewer reforms leading to the deadlock. But in Minnesota, things are changing. Good morning. I'm Tom Holman, Borders are President Trump. Just days ago, Borders are Tom Homan.

announced the end of the immigration surge in Minneapolis. I'm very pleased to report that this surge operation have yielded the successful results we have came here for. I have proposed, and President Trump has concurred, that this surge operation conclude. But was that operation a success? Consider this. With federal immigration enforcement under the microscope,

what should its future look like? From NPR, I'm Emily Kwong. On Wait Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, it's not so much we get to talk to celebrities. It's that we get to talk to celebrities about other celebrities, like we did with actor Nathan Lane. I remember having to tell George C. Scott that I was leaving the show to do this musical. And he said to me, you're leaving me to do a fucking magic show. Listen to Wait, Wait in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Consider This from NPR.

As lawmakers and people around the country grappled, with what immigration enforcement should look like. We have called up Janet Napolitano, former DHS secretary under President Obama, to talk about the future and the past of ICE. In announcing the end of the immigration crackdown in Minnesota, Borders'ar Tom Homan said it was a success. Do you see it as a success?

No. I think it was an unfortunate example of overreach. Actually, I'm sorry to say because I know a lot of, of ICE agents and they work very hard and they're very dedicated, but the way they were led, the way they conducted this operation, the influx of Border Patrol into ice and their different operational tempo, the size of the operation, the abuses that we saw on lots of videos, this was not a model law enforcement operation. What do you think went wrong in terms of how they were led. I think it begins with the direction from the White House to somehow do 3,000 arrests per day

and the kind of the verbiage, the wording used by the leadership, by not only from the White House, but from the leadership of the department. It just de-emphasized what professional law enforcement, federal law enforcement should do and how they should act, demonized an entire community. it's elected leaders, its citizens, it's immigrant population. And then, you know, they garb how they conducted themselves, how they didn't de-escalate in protest situations. There are lots of things that could have been done so much better if they were really doing an immigration enforcement initiative.

What do you wish had been done instead in Minnesota? Well, number one, I wouldn't have sent in almost 3,000 federal agents into a city where the police department only has 600 officers, into a city that you can drive across in 20 minutes, so just the size of the force and the saturation of the community and the lack of coordination with state and local law enforcement. I'm afraid this will have spillover effects to federal, state, local law enforcement coordination

in many other contexts moving forward. Immigration activists have criticized President Obama, as the quote deporter in chief. Over two terms, the Obama administration deported more than three million people. So for people looking at that number, three million, and then comparing it to the recent ICE arrests in Minneapolis, L.A., Chicago, and D.C., what is the difference? Right. So, yes, I was secretary when President Obama was nicknamed, much to his chagrin, I think, the deporter in chief. But here are some differences.

One is we focused on those with criminal convictions, those who were. were known threats to public safety and those who were recent border crossers so that they were deported before they'd entered the country and had already settled here. And that comprised the vast majority of our numbers. Not everybody. We did, you know, these are large operations nationally, et cetera. So there were immigrants picked up who didn't have serious convictions and what have you, but the focus was on those priorities.

The training was different. In the training, we focused on the notion of priorities. We focused on constitutional rights, civil rights. We focused on the way to de-escalate and to deal with protest situations. As I understand it, the current training has a reduced emphasis on all of those things. Right now, there are calls to even dismantle ice from protesters, recently several progressives in Congress or running for office have called for dismantling ICE or DHS. What do you make of those calls?

Yeah, I disagree. Immigration enforcement is an part and parcel of, you know, our national sovereignty. And it's important for a number of reasons. But because it's tough, because people are divided, and because all immigrants in this country who are illegal are not the same, it requires. judgment, discretion, and professionalism. And unfortunately, we have not seen that recently in the operations that are being conducted. The Department of Homeland Security is shut down for the moment. Do you have any concerns about a prolonged shutdown to DHS? Yes, I have a real concern about prolonged shutdown of DHS. Now, because Congress gave ICE and CBP all this money in the big,

beautiful bill, they're going to continue their operations. The shutdown is not. really going to affect them. But the vast majority of DHS, over 90% of the employees, will still have to work during a shutdown. The Secret Service still has to work. The Coast Guard still has to work. TSA still has to work. And they won't be getting paid. And I can tell you, the average TSA worker lives paycheck to paycheck. They don't get paid a lot. So when they start missing paychecks, that's real harm to the employees of the department. And it's terrible for morale. as well. That's Janet Napolitano, the former secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. Thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you.

This episode was produced by Henry Larson and Kai McNamee. It was edited by Sarah Robbins. Our executive producer is Sammy Yannigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Emily Kwong. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon Prime members can listen to consider this sponsor-free through Amazon music. Or you can also support NPR's journalism and get consider this plus at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org.