Consider This from NPR - What would RFK Jr. mean to HHS?

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. faced senators today in a contentious confirmation hearing to serve as Health and Human Services Secretary under President Trump. He's a former Democrat — turned independent presidential candidate — turned Trump loyalist.He's also someone who has pushed vaccine misinformation, something he was repeatedly questioned about during his confirmation hearing on Wednesday.HHS is a massive system that oversees everything from the Food and Drug Administration to vaccine funding to the Affordable Care Act. What do we know about how Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. would run it? For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.orgEmail us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

In 1994, the Vaccines for Children program was implemented. The VFC provides no-cost vaccines to kids who lack health insurance or whose families can't afford the cost of the vaccination. I'm Sarah Rosenbaum. I am an emerita professor of health law and policy at the Milken Institute School of Public Health at George Washington University. Rosenbaum played a key role in helping then President Bill Clinton

develop a national vaccine initiative. And the Vaccines for Children program, which was made part of Medicaid, addressed two key issues. The first was to make sure that the coverage that Medicaid agencies provided for vaccines met the standard set by public health experts. And to accomplish that, the VFC program covers the entire cost of vaccine. That means the federal government puts the entire bill for pediatric vaccinations, something that amounts to billions of dollars today.

Rosenbaum says the second thing the program did was to address what she saw as the single greatest impediment to properly vaccinating children. Once again, it came down to money. What Vaccines for Children did was to empower the HHS secretary to negotiate with the manufacturers directly. And then the manufacturers literally deliver, ship and deliver the vaccines right to the doctor's office. So other than having to bill for the administration fee, there is no charge to the doctors.

Under the VFC childhood vaccination rates, particularly those from low-income backgrounds, soared. The VFC has provided more than 71.5 billion doses of pediatric vaccines to more than 37,000 vaccine providers. So it's been one of Congress's most effective programs for preventive health. And of course, it's a central achievement of the Medicaid program for children. It is also a program that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. would oversee if he's confirmed

as Secretary of Health and Human Services. Exactly what Kennedy believes about vaccinations was something lawmakers questioned him about repeatedly today during his Senate confirmation hearing. What is so disturbing to me is that out of 330 million Americans were being asked to put somebody in this job who has spent 50 years of his life not honoring the tradition that he talked about at the beginning of this conversation, but peddling in half-truths, peddling in false statements, peddling in theories that, you know,

create doubt about whether or not things that we know are safe are unsafe. That's Colorado Democratic Senator Michael Bennett. Over the years, Kennedy has pushed the disproven theory that vaccines cause autism, and at other times floated other baseless claims like that AIDS is not caused by HIV. There's also the anti-vaccination non-profit formerly chaired by RFK Jr. called Children's Health Defense. And Rosenbaum, like many other public health advocates, worries that Kennedy will undo work that she believes has kept children in America safe for more than three decades.

What we may face is somebody who isn't just skeptical about vaccines, I mean, who has really denied their efficacy for children and raised false questions about their safety in charge of the entire enterprise, which is a very bitter pill to swallow. Consider this. The Vaccines for Children program is just one part of a massive system overseen by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. So what have we learned about how Robert F. Kennedy Jr. would run it?

From NPR, I'm Scott Detro. intro. It's Consider This from NPR. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. faced senators today in a contentious confirmation hearing to serve as Health and Human Services Secretary under President Trump. Kennedy is a former Democrat turned independent, now turned Trump loyalist. The Democrats, like New Hampshire Senator Maggie Hassan, questioned how he would square his positions with his politics.

When was it that you decided to sell out the values you've had your whole life in order to be given power by President Trump? Kennedy is the leader of the so-called Make America Healthy Again movement. NPR's Selena Simmons-Duffin and Susan Davis covered the hearing and join me now. Hey there. Hey Scott. Selena, I wannauffin and Susan Davis covered the hearing and join me now. Hey there.

Hi Scott. Selena, I wanna start with you and I have to start with vaccines. Kennedy's advocacy against vaccine mandates and questioning the safety of vaccines is the main reason that opponents say he should not have this job. How did he defend himself?

Well today he said many times he is not anti-vaccine. He said all his kids are vaccinated. He supports the childhood vaccine schedule. What he said is that he wants good science and he wants to make sure vaccines are safe, which sounds good, but there is this implication that there isn't good science now, which there is, and that vaccines aren't safe now, which they are.

I did not hear him say at any point that he had been wrong with all the past statements that people were running by him. He just tried to walk this tightrope that for decades of urging people to skip vaccinations, despite all that, that wouldn't influence his approach to the job of overseeing federal vaccine policy and recommendations. But again, he has a very long track record here. So I'm curious what kind of pushback he got when he said that. Well, Democrats on the committee really hammered him on the way he has profited from his anti-vaccine

work from lawsuits against drug makers, for example, books, speeches. His disclosures that became public this week shows he has made millions of dollars in this activity and he's just been also very influential in the anti-vaccine movement. One memorable way this came up in the hearing was when independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont brought out posters showing the onesies being sold on the website of Children's Health Defense. That's the group Kennedy is closely affiliated with but and used to lead. One of them is titled unfaxed, unafraid. Next one, and it's sold for 26 bucks apiece, by the way. Next one is no vax, no problem.

Kennedy responded by distancing himself from the group. He said he didn't control the merchandise they sell, but we should note that they streamed the hearing on that website today. Sue, I'm going to turn to you and another big political topic. Most of his life, Kennedy has supported abortion rights. He now wants to serve in a Republican administration. How did that issue play at today's hearing? Probably the sharpest exchange was with Senator Hassan.

She noted this contradiction of his lifelong advocacy of body autonomy when it comes to vaccines, but wouldn't commit to viewing abortion under that same autonomy. Kennedy also made it clear in a separate exchange with Republican Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma that on this issue, he would not seek to counter the White House in any way.

I agree with President Trump that every abortion is a tragedy. I agree with him that we cannot be a moral nation if we have 1.2 million abortions a year. I agree with him that the states should control abortion. A quick note, Scott, that Kennedy does have a condition that affects his voice. But in that statement, he went on to say explicitly, he serves at the pleasure of the president and he will implement his policies when it comes to abortion. And this is key because Kennedy has faced some skepticism on the right from conservative

abortion activists that he could somehow be more of a maverick on this issue. He made it clear that is not going to be the case. Selena, more broadly, what has Kennedy said his top priorities would be if he is confirmed? Well, he talked a lot about how President Trump has given him a mandate to get the health of Americans back on track. He said in his generation, he is 71 years old, Americans used to be healthier.

And he claimed that they could be healthy again with his out of thebox thinking and leadership. He said he would move the focus of scientific research away from infectious diseases like the flu and towards things like the root causes of chronic diseases like diabetes. A huge part of HHS and its budget is Medicare and Medicaid, also the Affordable Care Act. These are all programs that touch a lot of people's minds and are always politically top of mind. How did Kennedy address those?

So on those topics, at times Kennedy seemed to not know his way around those issues very well. At one point, he got the word Medicare and Medicaid confused, it seemed like, and he said that they're not popular programs while they're all they're very extremely popular across the political spectrum. And this is an important issue because Republicans in Congress are looking to possibly trim these programs in an effort to balance the budget. Sue, Republicans have the majority in the Senate.

How did Republicans approach Kennedy and navigate his complicated history? I'd like to put a fine point on it. He's been accused for a long time of being a conspiracy theorist, particularly in how he frames this intersection of government and science. One Republican senator, Tom Tillis of North Carolina,

seemed to try to give him some oxygen to defend himself. I got a real quick question for you. Are you a conspiracy theorist? That is a pejorative, Senator, that's applied to me, mainly to keep me from asking difficult questions of powerful interest. Scott, I don't think you can discount how much the COVID pandemic transformed the way the Republican Party views these government health agencies as almost a hostile force, a view that Kennedy at times has shared, which I think explains why there is so much conservative support for him in this political moment. Yeah. At this point, there really does not seem to be much resistance at all to Trump's

nominees. Is Kennedy on track to be much resistance at all to Trump's nominees. Is Kennedy on track to be confirmed? Nothing is certain in the Trump administration, but it seems likely. Members of the Kennedy family are out there advocating against him, including his cousin, Caroline Kennedy, the daughter of former President Kennedy. She released a letter this week she sent to senators calling him a, quote, predator and saying he should be defeated. This carries a lot of weight with Democrats, but this is really about keeping the Republican Party unified. He can only lose three Republican

senators and still get confirmed if all Democrats oppose him. And I would note here, Scott, that his former running mate, billionaire Nicole Shanahan, publicly this week said she will personally fund primary challenges to any of the key senators who oppose him or threaten to take down his nomination. That is NPR's Susan Davis along with Selena Simmons Duffin. Thanks to both of you. You're welcome. Thank you. This episode was produced by Brianna Scott and Jordan Marie Smith.

It was edited by Christopher Intagliata, Courtney Dornig, Diane Weber, Kelsey Snell, and Nadia Lansing. Our executive producer is Sammy Yennegem. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detra.