Consider This from NPR - Why Some Russians Are Fleeing To A Country Their Government Already Invaded

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

In 2008, Russia invaded another former Soviet republic: Georgia, a small country on the southeast edge of Europe. Today, Georgia is seeing an influx of Russians who are fleeing their home country in opposition to its invasion of Ukraine. Mary Louise Kelly traveled to Georgia to hear how people who live with Russian troops on their doorsteps are feeling as they watch the war in Ukraine play out. In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation, working toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all. On the web at theschmidt.org. TV Rain was Russia's last remaining independent TV station. They went off the air this month. The last words before the program ended? No to war. Definitely no to war. Then the hosts left their set. Many of the station's journalists fled Russia after that, including Tihan Zudko, the editor-in-chief. He and his family went to Tbilisi, Georgia, where my co-host Mary Louise Kelly spoke with him last week. He is one of the tens of thousands of Russians who have fled since the start of the war. I think all what is happening is absolutely

unpredictable. One month ago, we lived in a different world. I was sure that a war was not going to happen. Even though TV reign, as he knew it, is over, Zudko still feels a responsibility to continue to report out the news. We have to continue spreading information and truth to Russians and the Russian-speaking audience. We don't know where, we don't know how, we don't know when, but definitely sooner or later, rather sooner than later, we will continue broadcasting. Since arriving in Tbilisi, he and his wife have started a YouTube channel. He's not sure if reporting from outside Russia will pose a risk to their safety,

but he's trying not to think about the potential consequences right now. Instead, he's thinking about how to get the news and the truth of what's happening to Russian people back home. A lot of people in Russia are brainwashed by the propaganda. And a lot of people in Russia, unfortunately, don't understand what is actually happening in Ukraine or in Russia or in the world. It is our role now to try to reach out to every citizen of Russia,

telling them that black is still black, white is still white, because unfortunately, Russian government wants them to think black could be red or black could be blue, that war is not a war, that the Russian army is succeeding there. And while Zedko is thinking about his homeland from a neighboring country, wondering if and when it'll be safe to return, consider this. It is not an entirely unfamiliar moment. Tens of thousands of Russians have fled from their own government in the last month, many to Georgia,

a nation that still acutely feels the aftermath from when Russia invaded in 2008. From NPR, I'm Elsa Chang. It's Monday C's apply. Support for NPR and the following message come from Carnegie Corporation of New York, working to reduce political polarization through philanthropic support for education, democracy, and peace. More information at carnegie.org. It's Consider This from NPR. More than 30,000 Russians have arrived in the country of Georgia since Russia invaded Ukraine, fleeing from their own government. While some of them have since moved on, many say they are staying. But taking in refugees brings up complicated feelings for many Georgians. Russia occupies 20% of Georgian territory, and Russian troops creep in on more territory by pushing their

borders on foot. And so many Georgians still mourn loved ones who died when Russia invaded back in 2008. Here's Georgian security expert Natia Siskoria. It's 2022, and there are still ongoing tensions, and we are facing very, very serious threat. And unfortunately, what we see today is just, I think it's just a continuation of what Russia has been doing in Georgia for many, many years. Many of the Russians that have stayed in Georgia say it is not safe to go back, and that they're angry with what their country is doing. My co-host Mary Louise Kelly reported from Tbilisi last week, where she spoke with several of them. We're going to spend these next few minutes sharing the stories of three Russians we have met here in Tbilisi, starting with Alexei Voloshinov. He's the youngest of the people

we are about to meet, just 20. But we're starting with him because we can share where his story begins, back in Moscow. This is Alexei walking through the botanical gardens, what Russians call the pharmacy garden, central Moscow, on March 4th. It feels like real, not real. I still cannot believe that tomorrow I'm going to leave my country, maybe for my whole life. I hope not, but this is a possible option. He says this was not a move of choice, that as a young journalist, he was afraid to stay in Russia.

And as a young man, he was scared of getting drafted to fight against Ukraine. But still, I would really like to come back one day to the great Russia of future. Future great Russia, yeah. Just a little over two weeks later, we meet up with Alexei at a park, this time here in Tbilisi. We walk together to a cafe to get out of the rain, and I ask if he's managed to pick up much Georgian yet. Having just arrived myself, I am finding the language and its alphabet beautiful, but hard. I know Gamarjoba, Madloba.

That's hello, and thank you. I know Tro, this is yes, and I know Ara, this is no. That's the beginning. In the cafe, over plates of salty Georgian cheese and walnuts, I ask Alexei what happened after he left Moscow. Well, the thing is, I didn't have any plans. First, he flew to Armenia, where he thought he would stay for a bit. Then, after just two or three days, my father called me

and said that police was looking for me in Moscow. And that day I decided to leave Armenia and move to Georgia because there is no extradition from here. Did you know anyone in Tbilisi? Well, no. He met other Russians here. They went apartment hunting, something that has gotten really hard to do in recent days. There's the fact that rents are going up because the market is flooded with Russian house hunters. And there's the fact that not everyone wants to rent to Russians,

given Georgia's complicated history with its giant neighbor. The first apartment Alexei tried to rent. The host has asked us if we are Russians. We said yes, and she said that she cannot give us this place to live because Russian soldiers have killed her son in 2008 during the war between Russia and Georgia. So this is really understandable. They finally found a place. Alexei says he's looking for a job, starting to feel settled.

After I left the country, it was the first time I could sleep and eat normal. So worried. Yeah. Would you like to go back though? Do you want to live back in Russia? Of course, of course, yes. The first possibility after the Putin's regime is going to fall, I will come back like the next day. We've arranged our next interview at a pub called the Black Lion over pots of steaming tea. Lev Kalashnikov, like the gun, also just arrived in Tbilisi from Moscow early March. He's already a mover and shaker in the exile community here. He's a tech entrepreneur trying to help other entrepreneurs set up shop, move their businesses here. He says Tbilisi is hotter than anywhere right now, partly thanks to so many Russians with ambition and money pouring

in. But it's tricky trying to navigate bureaucracy, paperwork, all in another language. He tells us the story of his second day here. He was standing in a huge line trying to buy a SIM card. And in the line, there was 50 people in front of me and 50 after me. And I was looking around and I'm saying, wow, I did this step before. I can share my experience with these people. So he created a channel on the Telegram messaging app, which everybody here seems to use. A chat room, basically, that people could join by scanning a QR code.

And started showing to people around me. In the line. In the line. In the line you create this QR code. Yeah, when I left this place, it was like 30 people in the chat. And later that day it was 200. Next day it was 700 people. It kept growing.

Some 5,000 people are following that Telegram channel now, swapping tips on all kinds of stuff. Mainly are people asking about how to transfer money. 15% of people are asking about schools and kindergarten. Many asking about how is it going on the land border to cross over over land. Lev now runs several telegram channels for Russians coming to Georgia. He says he is constantly fielding questions that he tries to answer even when he can't help. Like a recent message he got from a man in Russian-controlled Crimea whose wife is stuck in the war in southern Ukraine.

This guy sends me a message that she got very ill and there is fighting on the streets and the bombs are going on. I don't know what to do with that. What can I do with that? But for some reason people are texting me this and I cannot help it. His voice breaks, his eyes well up with tears. He reaches for his tea, takes a long breath. Every single message that I get is a tragedy. Our final stop for the evening is a hole-in-the-wall bar in Old Tbilisi. It's called Ploho Bar.

Ploho means bad in Russian. A dozen or so people pack into this tiny space, all speaking Russian, chugging beers, taking shots of vodka. The walls are scrawled with marker, Russian sayings, crude drawings. 23-year-old Nastasia Dubovitskaya just left Moscow a week ago. She's working tonight behind the bar pulling beers. I wanted to go to rallies after the war started, but I knew that it would be more dangerous. Nastassia says she was detained

for seven days for attending a rally. She believes if she had stayed in Russia and kept protesting, she wouldn't be out so soon. I just decided to go here because I knew that I can help Ukraine and Ukrainians here better than for Russia. She points to a Ukrainian flag hanging on the wall. Next to it, a QR code for a website to donate money to the Ukrainian army. Nastassia says she's saving money to donate. It's part of the reason she's working here at the bar. But it's hard, she says. Her last day in Moscow, she went to see her dad. He's still there. We talked a lot and I've seen him crying for the first time in my life because he was so worried and he said that there is no future in Russia.

Just run and find something new. No future in Russia, so just run, find something new. So she did. One of tens of thousands of Russians who have run from their country since it invaded Ukraine nearly one month ago. That was my co-host Mary Louise Kelly reporting from Georgia last week. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Elsa Chang.