Consider This from NPR - Why the Comparisons Between Beyoncé and Taylor Swift?

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

It was the year of Beyoncé! It was the year of Taylor! Both musicians had highly successful tours, highly successful concert films and both women pumped billions into the economy. And each has been supportive of the other this year, and in the past. So why is there a narrative that they're rivals? NPR's Juana Summers revisits the year that was for Beyoncé and Swift, and talks to Miami University of Ohio Music Professor Tammy L. Kernodle about the tendency of society, and the media, to pit successful women in the music industry against one another. Email us at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

I think it's safe to say that 2023 was the year of Beyonce. It's because of you and your support that I'm doing exactly what I dreamed of doing my whole life. And I thank you. Thank you for helping make my dreams come true. And Taylor Swift. We're about to go on a little adventure together, and that adventure is going to span 17 years of music. How does that sound?

These two women dominated the summer. You had Beyonce's Renaissance. And you had Taylor Swift's Heiress tour. Online, it seemed like everyone was talking about these tours, and they were certainly being discussed in the media. Calling all Swifties. Your wildest dreams are coming true. Well, it's time for a summer renaissance here

in the U.S. Beyonce, despite the heat and the chance for rain, Beyonce fans are piling into MetLife Stadium. Tonight, Taylor Swift is in her Levi's era. The Silicon Valley hasn't seen an event like this in years. Are you ready for it? They are ready, and local economies can thank Swifties and the Beehive for a summer cash boost. The summer frenzy of Beyoncé and Taylor Swift was a major success. Both released film versions of their tours and theaters, which allowed people a front-row seat to experience their artistry. And the films increased the incredible amount of money the two made. Beyoncé and Taylor Swift are economic powerhouses. The artists generated more than $10 billion for the U.S. this year.

And beyond money, in 2023, Beyoncé broke the record for most Grammy wins, and Taylor Swift was named Time Magazine's Person of the Year. They both triumphed this year, and yet, in the midst of their success, the question of who is better has come up again and again. The origin of Beyonce and Taylor Swift being pitted against one another goes back to 2009 at the Video Music Awards. That year, Taylor Swift won the award for Best Female Video, and while she was in the middle of her acceptance speech, Kanye West came up on stage, and, well, this happened. I'm really happy for you. I'm gonna let you finish, but Beyonce had one of the best videos of all time.

One of the best videos of all time. Booze from the crowd, a stunned look from Beyonce, a pop culture scandal playing out in real time. Later that night, when Beyonce won the award for best video of the year, she brought Taylor Swift up on stage so she could finish her speech. So I'd like for Taylor to come out and have her moment. Despite that, the controversy at the 2009 VMAs cemented years to come of comparing these two artists. But this is not a new phenomenon, pitting women against each other in the music industry. Nicki Minaj versus Lil' Kim, Britney Spears versus Christina Aguilera,

Cher versus Celine Dion. The list of comparisons goes on. My fear is that we're not going to see the real development of women artists, and we're going to still have these competitive tropes. Consider this. For decades in pop culture, the competition between women musicians

has been never-ending, even when the women themselves don't see each other as competition. Why do women in music get pitted against one another, and at what cost? From NPR, I'm Juana Summers. It's Friday, December 22nd. it's consider this from npr renaissance or the eras fans of beyonce and taylor swift took that question to heart over the summer music festival season. Those conversations were mainly playing out amongst fans on podcasts and on platforms like TikTok. Let's take a listen to some of what was being discussed. Who's more famous, Beyonce or Taylor Swift? Taylor Swift.

Beyonce, she got more money than Taylor. Taylor Swift. Why do you think so? Aris Tor. I don't want to put, I like, I like, am both of their biggest fans, so I don't want to put them against each other, but I have to say Taylor. You're doing a disservice to Beyonce to compare her to Taylor Swift, because Taylor is in another galaxy. I can't tell me Beyonce has the same amount of hits, no features, as Taylor. No, she does.

Take away the features. Who's a bigger artist, Taylor Swift or Beyonce? Beyonce! Why? Because, Beyonce! Why? Because Beyonce, like, what else? No HTT Swizzle, but Bae Swizzle got it. Who do you think is a bigger artist, Taylor Swift or Beyonce? They're both equally very talented women.

That wasn't the question. I need for y'all to stop comparing these two. I'm just annoyed that y'all do this anytime they're in the same vicinity. Yes, they're both on tour. Yes, they're making millions. Why do y'all gotta compare? All right. It is clear that Swifties and members of the Beehive have very strong opinions about these artists. But as we just heard, there are people questioning why both women can't coexist as individual musicians. To unpack that question, I spoke to Tammy Cronodal, a professor of music at Miami University in Ohio. There seems to be this impulse. You take these two women who are both having these incredible years,

there's this collective impulse that we have to compare the two of them. Why do you think that is? No, that's such an interesting question, particularly given the fact that when you look at the rankings of the top tours from 2023, no one is talking about Bruce Springsteen competing with Ed Sheeran or any of these male artists who have been identified, you know, in these top tours, why is it that women are always pitted against each other? And I think it has a lot to do with the way in which, you know, we define artistry, we define acceptable space in certain social spheres, but also in reference to music, whether women can be within the narrative. And oftentimes what has happened, particularly in the history of popular music in America, is that there's only been space for one woman and she has to be an exceptional woman.

And the way in which that exceptionalism is measured or marked continually changes according to genre of music, sometimes race, sometimes generation, you know, it just varies. But hard and fast, there's only been space for one woman. And I mean, this is clearly a phenomenon in our culture that did not start with Beyonce and Taylor. It did not start in 2023. It dates back decades, centuries even. Can you take us through some of the history of how we have ended up pitting women against each other in the music industry. One of the earliest examples of this I can draw on comes from jazz, and in particular when you see how pianist Mary Lou Williams was often pitted against pianist Hazel Scott during the 1930s and 40s.

Both very consummate, proficient, genre-bending, extraordinary musicians, but both operating within the jazz paradigm as pianist. And while that's acceptable, there's still this contested space about them. And so there are literal reviews of records and there's literal commentary by jazz journalists where they say, Hazel Scott needs to listen to this Mary Lou Williams record to know what real jazz is. So this question of competition is one about who gets to define what is authentic in sound and musicianship in a genre, right? So there's this constant pitting female artists against each other. Sometimes it's wrapped up solely in sound and talent and musicianship. And other times it's just based in petty observations that before the advent of

social media were just simple conversations that we as fans might've had amongst ourselves, but now they get amplified into bigger narratives. We're having a conversation about arguably two of the biggest and most iconic female artists of our day, but I want to bring the conversation, if I can, back to the men again for the moment. The point you made earlier is that this kind of comparison does not happen between male artists of the same caliber. Why do you think that is? Because everything about our public sphere has been defined in masculinity, our language, our way of thinking politically, economically, socially, and also culturally. We have yet to fully untap really what are the roles of women as it relates to cultural expression. And so we still in some ways

have looked to male voices as the progenitors, as the definers, as the tastemakers, as it relates to so much of our social culture. And so they can exist in a space where it can be more than one of them. And what they can also exist in is a state of mediocrity. Women cannot. So we always have to be exceptional no matter what in order to rise to the top. Another thing that strikes me when we talk about this so-called rivalry between Beyonce and Taylor Swift is the fact that it has always seemed to be non-existent on their part and a creation of people external to them. I mean, these are two women who have over the years outwardly supported one another. I mean, when Taylor Swift was named Times Person of the Year for 2023, she said this, and I'm quoting her here,

clearly it's very lucrative for the media and stan culture to pit two women against each other, even when those two artists in question refused to participate in that discussion. What did you make of that? It's exactly true. It is more lucrative to stir up, you know, so-called rivalries or tensions between artists, because what it does is it calls for us to claim positions. It also causes for us to speak with our dollars. And so the people who benefit from this are not those two artists, so to speak, even though we do see in their case, you know, the economic residuals of this. But more so, it fuels an industry that's always been based in controversy

in some type of way. The cultural industry thrives off of that because what it enables is their continual production and dissemination of culture without us scrutinizing what are their practices, without us scrutinizing, you know, what is the exploitation and the manipulation that is taking place. So Tammy, I want to end by asking you, for solutions, how do we get away from this narrative, this idea that there can only be one, that exceptional woman? What do we do? I think it's responsible journalism. I think that's kind of where it starts. It's responsible journalism. I think it also calls for people like me who write and teach and research in these areas to continue to illuminate what are these

historical narratives. Because when we understand that women artists have been present through all of these different progressive ages of change and musical evolution, then we can understand that this has always been an inclusive conversation and that women did not hold a trivial place in these subcultures, in these ecosystems that surround the music. We just have to keep telling the story. We have to keep uncovering historical narratives. That was Tammy Kernodle, a professor of music at Miami University in Ohio. Today's episode was produced by Brianna Scott. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Juana Summers.