Conversations with Tyler - Masaaki Suzuki on Interpreting Bach

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

A conductor, harpsichordist, and organist, Masaaki Suzuki stands as a towering figure in Baroque music, renowned for his comprehensive and top-tier recordings of Bach's works, including all of Bach's sacred and secular cantatas. Suzuki's unparalleled dedication extends beyond Bach, with significant contributions to the works of Mozart, Handel, and other 18th-century composers. He is the founder of the Bach Collegium Japan, an artist in residence at Yale, and conducts orchestras and choruses around the world.  Tyler sat down with Suzuki to discuss the innovation and novelty in Bach's St. John's Passion, whether Suzuki's Calvinist background influences his musical interpretation, his initial encounter with Bach through Karl Richter, whether older recordings of Bach have held up, why he trained in the Netherlands, what he looks for in young musicians, how Japanese players appreciate Bach differently, whether Christianity could have ever succeeded in Japan, why Bach's larger vocal works were neglected for so long, how often Bach heard his masterworks performed, why Suzuki's  favorite organ is in Groningen, what he thinks of Glenn Gould's interpretations of Bach, what contemporary music he enjoys, what he'll do next, and more. Read a full transcript enhanced with helpful links, or watch the full video.  Recorded October 18th, 2023. Other ways to connect Follow us on X and Instagram Follow Tyler on X Follow Masaaki on X Sign up for our newsletter Join our Discord Email us: [e-mail] Learn more about Conversations with Tyler and other Mercatus Center podcasts here.

Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems. Learn more at Mercadis.org. For a full transcript of every conversation, enhanced with helpful links, visit Conversationswithtyler.com. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I'm here in New York City with Masaki Suzuki. Masaki Suzuki is one of the greatest musical creators and producers of our time.

He has recorded the entire set of Bach's sacred cantatas, which in my collection amounts to, I think, 55 compact discs. He has recorded all of the secular cantatas. These are generally acknowledged to be the most important and best recordings of Bach's cantatas' music ever. he is recording complete the organ music of Bach, so he also is a world-class organist, and is recording the complete harpsichord music of Bach, works that are commonly acknowledged to be in the top tier. So there's simply no one else I know of with this kind of record of production and quality and dedication and inspiration. He also has recorded a good deal

of Mozart, Handel, many other 18th century composers. He founded the Bach Collegium Japan in 1990. He teaches also as a professor at Yale University and does many other things as well. Masaki Suzuki, welcome. Thank you for invitation. That's a really great pleasure to come here. I have many questions for you, but to start with Bach, St. John's Passion, 1724, if you had to explain to us in its most fundamental sense, what was new in St. John's Passion that Bach did, What was the nature of that innovation? Well, probably no one expected at that time to have that dramatic passion. Because passion tradition of the based on, derives from the reading the Bible in the liturgy.

So it's probably, firstly, it was only thought as to Bible reading, but not simply reading instead of the citation. so with some tones. So that was developed to the music, passion music. And by the time of Bach, that was already developed as a kind of oratorial passion. So that was actually the very dramatic experience already. But still Bach's time on the one week before the Easter, the passion of the Johann Walter was still performed. That means really only only.

F major accord from the beginning until the end, you know, just to recite all the Bible texts and so on. That was still performed. So the very first passion of Bach in the Lepzig time was a St. John passion, which was a really shocking experience for everyone, I thought. And in terms of choral work, what is new in that passion? Coral work. Yes. Yes, that is a very, well, the structure consists of,

the choir and the as the Turba, so the Massa people, the shouting and so on. At the same time, the choir was also supposed to sing the choral. And so the multifunctions all the time, choral. And do you think of St. John's Passion as a Christian work, or you conduct it as a Lutheran work, or drawing from a particular gospel? How do you think about that theologically? From my point of view, St. John Passion, we are doing this work as just as simple general sacred music, sacred the work. And we are performing this music not in the liturgy anymore and we are doing in the concert.

So there are plenty of ways to accept or receive or appreciate this music. So we are doing simply as the musicians to do our best, you know, to do the sound-wise and text-wise, everything that's as good as possible. So I think the music can work afterwards to the individuals, you know, according to their situation or thoughts. And your own background is Calvinist. Does that in any way shape how you approach the work? Yeah, that is really. Good question, actually. I was asked very many times, why are you not Lutheran? But there's almost a kind of predestination in the work. Jesus seems to know what's coming, more than in other parts of the Bible.

Exactly, yes. So actually, I'm very grateful to be a Calvinist because Calvin was probably the, well, I don't know. I'm not no theologian, I'm no historian, but still, according to my the knowledge is Calvin was one of the first reformator who acknowledged the value of the activity and culture of this world, not only in that world in heaven. So it is very often said Calvin was not so sympathy to the music or culture, whatever, but that is not true. And he has limited the congregational singing only for the psalm. But other than church, the outside,

of the church, he has helped some quite much cultural activity, for example, publish of the psalm thing or arrangements and so on, so he was also helpful to inspire the musical activity in this world. So I think in this way we can evaluate the old musical or whatever cultural activity in this world, the other kind of under the very big notion as a general grace. of the god. So when Bach is in Curtin, in what is what was East Germany, which was Calvinist at the time, but he's composing mainly secular works. How do you frame that? Why did he do that? Oh, that's that he didn't have a chance to compose any

Lutheran cantata at that time. From one side, he must have been very happy to compose the organ works, instrumental works, and also secular cantatas and so on. But probably he wished to do more work to the Lutheran Lutheran church and so on. That's why he moved to Leipzig, I think. So let's go back and just talk about your career, your history a bit. So you're 12 years old,

and all of a sudden you hear Karl Richter's recording of Bach's B minor math. How did you come upon that? And how did you feel at the time? Well, that's really, yeah, that's a little stupid, but I was very, very excited. Not only with that music, but also I got the quite big stereo equipment from my father.

And then I was very excited to listen to whatever with a headphone. Headphone was also a very first experience. And anyway, the B-Man Amas was so fantastic, so wonderful, but I didn't understand anything from the text or from the music. The music was much too complicated. And the only thing is I played quite much trumpet in the brass band. So that's why the trumpet playing by the German trumpeter, the Adolf Sherbaum, that was really fascinating in the B. Manama.

So I actually repeatedly listened to the only Gloria. But anyway, that Bimanamass is really the wonderful encounter with Bach's music. And how was your musical ear back then? So the Richter recording, I think of it as a lot. little bit a mix of overblown and stiff, even though it's pretty good, right? It's not what people would listen to now. Did you have a sense of that back then, or you were just blown away? No, no, no.

Yeah, well, for other interviews, I have listened back to that recording recently. That was completely different, and well, it is not acceptable at all for my years, because he was, Carista must have been a really wonderful musician, and also he played a harbisket by himself. by the conducting for St. Mashi Passen without seeing any scores that's a real amazing thing. But anyway, that's his way of music making

is the well completely modern, not only modern but the kind of machine like the notes by notes and so that is really not acceptable anymore.

But at that time that made probably a lot of excitement for the audience, and that's very nice, I think. Do you think there are any older recordings of Bach, say, of the B minor mass or the passions that have held up, before the Dutch movement for original instruments? Yeah, well, I listened to, for example,

the Mingelberg, St. Maschian, a couple of times, just as an example. That's a very famous example in history. Yeah, well, that is, of course, completely different, but probably at that time, it was very beautiful performance. I think. And that's quite romantic. Tempo is completely slow. Well, I have no idea how it was accepted,

but actually it did work out at that time. So this kind of sense of value about the performance is changing all the time. So I think we belong to the quite different generation, but at that time it must have been very rightful and that's very stimulating to do the Bach music. And how was it you decided to study early music in the Netherlands? Was it just you wanted to study music and then you learn of the movement? Or you went there because of the movement?

No, no. Actually, in this way, I was completely fascinated by the organ itself. So that's why I started to play organ and I got the lessons when I was a teenager before the university time. And then I wanted to study more organs. And my first organ teacher was a Belgian priest, actually, in Osaka. I told him that said, I wanted to be an organist. And so I said, but listen, Masaki, there is no good organ in Japan at all. So that is no good idea to study to organ here in Japan. So why don't you study composition?

So I did study composition in the university. That was very good the career, very good process to understand the music. And in between, I just happened to me, the harpsychoteist called Motoko Nabashima, Japanese, the kind of first generation harpsodist, who studied with Gustav Leonehart in Amsterdam. And she was really genius person. She spoke more than six languages in Europe, and she has spent quite a long time in Europe. And she came back to Japan, and I met her, and I got a lesson from her.

And that was really changed my life. And she introduced me to Tom Coughman, who were the schoolmates of her. So they were together in Gustav Reunhardt class. So I went to Amsterdam and I went to the Tom Cofman's concert on the day of my arrival. And that was a really shocking world. That was really so fresh and so exciting. So I decided to come to Amsterdam. And that was very good decision, I thought.

So if you started with Oregon, harpsichord, how was it then you came to conducting? Conducting is actually has been always outside of my idea, because, you know, when you perform concertas or whatever Bach's ensemble music, you know, someone must lead, very possible from the Harps Code as a Bach did and so on, so. I did in that way. So gradually I made some ensemble with my brother and my brother's colleague and the string players and so on. And then we

were simply starting to perform the contractors one by one. And I, for example, I gave them some sign or some signature. So my brother criticized what I mean oh, that is not clear. That is all the how in which tempo do you want?

And something like. And so only through this kind of discussion, I became a conductor. I'm not a conductor in a really traditional sense. And were people telling you, well, you can only do one thing? It's organ, harpsichord, or conducting, you have to choose one? Or everyone just let you do all of those? Well, actually, these three are completely, I think that's integrated. They're easily integrated.

But you do all three, right? Yeah, well, yeah, but the harpsych organ is, for example, there's a completely different instrument, but still based on the same idea how to make music. And also conducting, choir conducting especially, you know, there's exactly the same feeling as you play the fuga on organ. For example, theme comes now tenor, now soprano, and something like that. So that's exactly the same.

So only thing the choir has text, so that's much more, you know, better than organized. Given how much music you've produced and how consistent the quality is, what is it you think you know about productivity that other people do not? Well, I have no idea about other people's about the, well, productivity. Well, that is only, well, the box music is so fascinating, so I can't stop working simply. Yeah, well, I never tried to be productive whatsoever.

Just the only I want to pursue the how to improve performance, how to realize this and that, the music of Bach. And not only Bach, that only music is there. So nothing else. If you had to explain, what is it about the music of Bach that you still do not understand? What would that be? Well, Bach's music has always together with some kind of. puzzles and enigma. So you can never get an answer to all the, all the, that kind of unknown aspects of the Bach.

For example, Kustiafuge, for example, the art of fugue, for example, we don't know why he has really written or why, what kind of situation it was not finished. And in the contettas, for example, there are plenty of really difficult places to understand why he did in this way and so on and the most of the cases we can find some answers from the text

but still it is not so easy to understand everything and that was very good so how good a sense of the grasp of Bach's mind do you feel you have or is he just a complete mystery to you yeah quite quite

much mysterious field I think so I'm trying to understand and I'm trying to come closer to Bach's sense or Bach's mind, but actually it is very, very difficult. The more you work, the more distant you can get. That is really. Yes, that's true. When you're hiring for the Bach Collegium Japan,

of course they have to be wonderful musicians, but given the extreme productivity demands that will be placed on them, what is it you look for in the people you have? Well, the most important aspect from musicians is probably how much they can devote to the music. Sometimes how much interest do they have in that music. Well, I do, for example, singers' auditions very often. And, well, of course, I have to judge sometimes technical aspects, of course, how good or technical. but not only the techniques are the most important thing

is probably their interest and how much they can devote themselves to music. That is the most important thing. So I'm very happy to have now our members and orchestra and singers and at the very beginning they don't have any idea what is the Bach's concert especially and the choral music or this kind of ensemble music, how to do that.

But in between during our working together, they have developed a lot. So that is very nice. And they inspired me again. So this kind of vice versa, the inspiration is very, very nice. Do you think Japanese players understand Bach differently? I don't think so. But the only thing is basically Japanese people don't have any Christian background or the tradition in the country.

So sometimes I have to explain what the text says and so on and also this and that text comes from this and that text of the Bible and so on. But this kind of explanation is not possible in Europe, for example, because everything is already taken for granted. So no one can really explain about Jesus parables. So in Japan, I think it's very good to have that kind of chance, you know, to talk about that thing. And also the German text is, of course, basically impossible in Japan to understand immediately.

But that's why we need translations. We provide all the time Japanese translations to audience and also for the orchestra people, all the musicians. But this kind of translation work is a part of very important interpretation work. Because we read the Bible, for example, the only through the translations. No one in this world raise the original language in the Old Testament, New Testament. So actually, in order to make

some these kind of translations, we have to think on that, consider what it really means and so on all the time. So I try to make quite some translations of Bach's countert, some

20, 30 contours I have translated myself, but it's very time-consuming That's why I gave up recently, but we have very good colleague to make good translation. With your Japanese background, do you think

you approach Christianity differently? I think so quite different from any other Well, actually, each of the countries have different approach to the Christianity or whatever religion, I think. But in Japan is quite different from Korea, for example.

And Korea has much, much Christians. Now, it is said that 40 or 50% of the population of the Christian, but in Japan is always says that the only 1% of something. But in spite of that, the Christian culture is very well known in Japan, so everyone knows what Christmas is and even Easter. They are quite known nowadays, but there's very not so many Christians in Japan. I thought formally that that is a big negative aspect, but I think that it's not possible really to count who is a Christian, who is not Christian. And, you know, when we perform the St. Magistri Passion regularly on the Holy Week and every year since 20 years we are doing, now we have regularly three performers in Holy Week in the same

same venue. So the something like 5,000, 6,000 people are coming for that performance. And that is an amazing thing in comparison with the number of the Christianity in Japan. So

actually I think that quite many people can appreciate that kind of message from the Bible as well, not only the Bach's music but from Bible and so on. So that is my hope. Do you ever think back on what is called the Christian century in Japan, which ends, I think, in 1639, when a lot of Japanese convert to

Christianity fairly rapidly, but then Christianity is suppressed. Is there some alternate history where Japan becomes more or less a Christian country, or could that never have happened? No, that has never happened. That was completely stopped, I think, the tradition-wise. But it is very interesting that there are quite many evidence that before the 1639, quite many churches were built by the missionaries and from Europe. And also in Azuchi, for example, where the Oda Nobunaga has a based, the very close to Kyoto,

there were quite many churches and also quite some organs at the time. And also boys' missionaries were sent twice at least from Japan to the Pope in Rome. And in between, at that time it took a couple of years to reach Europe. And in between, some of them, practice organ on the ship

and then when they arrived at Avala in Portugal, one of them could play organ immediately and everyone was astonished. But in this kind of connection was completely stopped afterwards. That was very pity

and Christianity was actually left over only as the hidden Christian. So that is a very interesting history but the probably it is not possible to to call them Christianity anymore

but that is a kind of mix up with Buddhism so the recently passed away the musicologist Mr. Minnagawa, Tatsu Minnagawa who has researched about that history and found out a very interesting thing

like for example there are still hidden Christians in Japan in Kyushu area and I have that they used to have the funeral ceremony combined with Buddhism and Christianity. So quite big houses or temple like buildings. And in the front side, they do the funeral ceremony according to the Buddhism, Buddhist way. And then in between the priests are supposed to walk around back to the building.

And then the while walking, they are all murmuring, this is not true, this is not true. not true, and then come back to the Buddhism again, something like that. So this is a really interesting ceremony. So there's a kind of mixture with Christians. So this kind of hidden Christianity or the Christian people have a very, very difficult and miserable history because they were completely depressed and also they tortured many people. But still, they have survived in a way.

But not really anymore as Christian, the proper Christian. Well, I don't know exactly. Well, I can't tell too much about that because I don't know exactly. But anyway, the hidden Christianity is still there. That's a very interesting thing. And you're from Kobe, right? That was originally a Christian center along with Nagasaki. Exactly, exactly.

Because they were port cities, is that why? Yeah. That is the Kobe's one of the most important. After the reopening of the Japan. So 1868. There are probably two, Kobe and the Yokohama and even Sendai,

the port places, you know, this is very important to accept any kind of culture from outside. But the Christianity came in and for example, there is the oldest

Protestant church is in Yokohama. So that is the end of 19th century. That's a really interesting history. How do Japanese audiences for classical music say in Tokyo differ from New York audiences well probably a little different American audience are more friendly I think more

friendly and more easier to be excited by the performance and as if they look like more inspired directly from the music and also musicians. And in Japan, Japanese audiences, sometimes they know very well about the repertory and very cooperative, but they are the same time not so excited immediately. Probably the inside is very excited,

but we Japanese people don't express directly from inside to outside. We were all told in the school, for example, that is rude. That is not the intellectual demeanor, something like that. What do you think of the hypothesis, the Japanese audiences, they have a special interest in iconic works, such as Beethoven's 9th, and there's an insistence that they hear the best or experience the best

and single out very particular things. Do you think that's true? Yeah, Beethoven 9 is very special being, especially in December. And so there are more than 100 performances. because in between nine, only in December. And the chorus at the end has special meaning for Japanese people, do you think? Chorus? The chorus, the lyrics to the choral ending of the ninth.

Yeah, of course, that is very special meaning. Not only for Japan, but I think that's musically the very big events. But in Japan, there are quite some of the projects who gather the people, more than 10,000 people to sing out to the Beethoven 9 at the end. So that is quite beloved event, but that is no more musical event, I don't think. Why do you think Bach's larger vocal works were neglected for as long as they were until Mendelsohn, right, in the 1820s?

They're a bit forgotten. The keyboard music is not forgotten. What happened there? Well, I don't know, there are a couple of different aspects. For example, passion music of Bach at the St. Mashu or St. John, you need definitely as a continual playing, for example. But that idea was already distinct, already completely extinct by the time of Mendelsohn. So Mendelsohn has reformed, or the how we call it, made a harmonization for the continual. part. He has performed some cantatas as well, but he always provided the parts for the brass

section or the wind section to fulfill the harmonization on the continuum. So that's the imperative part of the continuum could not understand anymore by the time of Mendelsohn. And also, it was much easier for them to understand the passion music just as the storytelling. So that Menderson has performed Saint-Marsia passion only mainly the older restatives. So he avoided for his first performance, he avoided

the nearly old areas, even out of Slibe that he didn't perform the first time. And his intention was to follow the story as directly as possible. So in that way, probably

it was thought just like the opera production. So the Mendelsohn was indeed that is revived the St. Marge Passion, but actually that performance is completely different what we are now doing. How many times do you think Bach heard his own larger scale masterworks? St. Matthew's Passion, B minor, Mass. No, there is no evidence that he has any performed B minor Mass. That he never heard it.

He never heard it. Only in his mind. Yeah. And St. Magsia Passion, he has performed at least the three times I think, St. John is four times, or five I'm not sure

but anyway, that's only a couple of times he has really hard and performed his own masterworks. Now your music is largely online. Not all of our listeners are experts in the music of Bach, but if you had to recommend two or three

cantatas that you've conducted, a place for them to start, where would you send them? That is very difficult. of the most difficult questions. Well, that depends on the situation, what you have in the past, in the experience. Sure. But one of the my favorite contetta is, for example, ah, let me see. Vaketafti.

Vaketafi, yeah, 140. That's a good one, starting. Very, very good one, of course. And Festerberg? 80. Storn's a court? Well, I don't recommend. that is for the first beginner because that is too complicated.

Well, for example, concert number eight, leipster yesu, that is a really wonderful music, so you can really use it as a BGM background music as well. And that is really comfortable to listen. Or the concert 102, the hair, Dainé Aungens and Dainabins, that is one or two, is the, there's a very interesting structure. The choir has a two double fuguer,

and that is really interesting structure. And also the area was very dramatic. So, well, otherwise, plenty of examples. In the world today, how many top tier organs are there for playing the music of Bach, where you can really do it justice? You said there were no good organs in Japan, or you were told this.

At that time, yes, yes. How many organs of the highest quality are there in the whole world for you to play box? Yeah, how many? That's a really difficult question, but it totally depends on what you think beautiful or what you feel good. Because I prefer personally the historical organs, the original organs, like in northern Germany or France or whatever. And, well, my really favorite organ in the world is the Hroningan, that's the Martiniqueerk, that's built by the Johann Kaspar Schenitka. And where is that exactly? The Hroningen is in the north part of the Nogon, yes, yes.

Groningen, yes. That is really wonderfully restored. So that's quite much depends on how it's restored as well, because the organ is had all with very long history. So in between, for example, in the 19th centuries, all over the historic organs were once renovated according to the musical taste of that time. So the nearly old organs were once romanticized, the romantic way that changed.

So in 20th century, most of the organs were re-renovated to bring them back to the original situation or 18th century or 17th century. And so how to restore is a really key point, actually. So, for example, this Matini Kirk in Hrangen Organ, that is originated, the Shinigua Organ. So the original, from the very original style, is very, very good,

but that is beautifully restored by Juergen Arndt, one of the most important organ builder in Germany. How was it that organs improved, in the time of Baroque music and Bach so that he could do what he did. Because it wouldn't have been possible 100 years earlier, right? Yeah, the organ building

have been all the time so changing according to the time. And so Bach's time, the second half of the 18th century, the organs around Bach's area, so Saxon and Turingans have quite different character from north and Germany

or Italy or France and so on. they had quite many stringy stops registers, stringy sound, contains a lot of high overtones, and that is very close to the string instruments, and that is very, very interesting. So that kind of character is very important for the Bach's organ music, I think, basically. But the Bach's, as I said, there is no organ extent from that time to play all the Bach's organ music on one instrument.

So actually Bach's idea of composition is always surpassed the organ situation. Here's a question from a reader, quote, how does he explain the to me surprisingly large number of Japanese organ students at top conservatories in Europe? Nowadays, so many, not so many Japanese... Not so many, you think. Yeah.

Yeah. Now much more Korean-N-O-Guanist. Korean. Yeah, well, basically, I think nowadays in Europe, much less numbers of Japanese students in generally speaking. But for such a, you know, there's a famous conservatory like Paris or Rome or Vienna and so on, there are still quite some, I think, but much less than before. And that was probably because all the Japanese musicians can get job now in Japan.

So they don't have to really go to Europe anymore in terms of getting job. I think it's still very important to live in Europe once if you would like to be the musician of the European music. So it is very important, I think. Once you arrived in the Netherlands, of course you've been to Germany many times. earlier on. How did that change how you understood the music of Bach? Well, before I came to the Netherlands, actually, I didn't have any knowledge. I didn't have any understanding. So, only the feeling, and I loved organ, and I loved harpschord. But the only thing is when I started learning with Tom Copman, you know, what I had

done in Japan was not wrong. So I thought that I was really lucky. I thought. I was really lucky. Well, actually, I was completely ignorant before I came to the Netherlands about Baroque music or about Bach and whatsoever. So everything was so new to me. So all the knowledge, Tom Copman had so many books and so much knowledge. And he really talked many things like machine guns, so many. And, well, after that, I learned and I read some books and so on a little bit more objectively. Then I came to the conclusion that I'm good. I can stay myself, you know, something like that.

But if you go to the Bach Church in Leipzig or go to Ornstadt, mentally emotionally, does something fall into place? Or do you just look at it and say, oh, that's nice? well for example in st thomas church in leipzig i was very happy to be there for the first time ever that was still daily airtight day of the time and in front of the church there's a huge statue of the bach and that was so big bach and something but actually the st thomas church itself is the well now that's quite that that is the inside is quite different from that time of the Bach and well I was very happy to be there

but not really you know I can't make any any connection from the heaven through that church you know that's so anyway that's the Bach can be anywhere I think I thought that the Bach can be

anywhere in the world so that is very important places and but now it's quite different in the building where structure wise and the everything is the difference so you can never feel the original atmosphere there. What do you think of Glenn Gould's highly unusual interpretations of Bach? Well, the Glengld, I love the Glengled performers very much,

and that is not so unusual. That's if you try to make articulations and also to make some kind of effects like the Habsco, and organ and so on. I thought that this is quite natural conclusion that he did in that way. There's one or two, the recording of organ playing, his organ

playing, that was a little strange I think. But piano, for example, Goldberg variation, that's a really fabulous recording, I think. What do you think of the view that some of them are wonderful, like the Partitas, the English suite in A minor, but say

the well-tempered clavier, it just seems like swooning and the tempos are too arbitrary. It's not charming to me. Really? Some of them seem to not work at all. Yeah, could be. I don't know so many different recordings, but at least for the Goldberg variations, that was very nice. A first one, especially. And sometimes the tempo is very quick and I can't do that in that way, but that's a very fascinating performance, I think.

The Brandenburg Concerti, what is it exactly that makes them such a major advance over the music that came before? Because they seem to come out of nowhere, and they're so fully blown. The solos are incredible, right? The ensemble work. Yes. I think that was the Bach's intention to compile the six concertos as a one collection. But probably by then he has composed quite many concertos. I think that is very simple.

You know, the New Yorker Bach specialist Michael Marison has written about that Brandenburg concerto. That was a symbolized symbol. His intention was to represent the social hierarchy. The number one, Brandebrook number one is with two horns. That is very, you know, the usual symbol for the court, the dignity of the court. And then second one is the trumpet, solo, overall, recorder, and violin. Those four instruments are supposed to be performed by any Stutt Pfeiffer. So they had to master all these instruments and so on and so on.

And the number three is very interesting. But the number three is this number was made by Bach himself. And that is three violin, three violets, three cell. So that's everything dominated by three. But he didn't compose the second movement. So that is actually movement was supposed also three, but the second one is missing. And only one bar in the middle of the page.

So he clearly intended for him by himself to improvise that second movement. So that was the intention for the Berlin. He wanted to dedicate. to the Berlin graph and then if you hire me then I can improvise for this movement and something like that. What is it in contemporary

classical music that you enjoy? Contemporary music. Well, yes, I enjoy sometimes, but probably there are plenty of other specialists for that kind of contemporary music, I think. But what do you listen to? Well, I don't know what is

contemporary, but probably I listened to the Stravinsky, for example. That's one of my favorite composer, and I did actually. I made even one CD of the Pruchinala and so. Even more recent one like Takemitsu, and that is very beautiful. But sometimes I can't understand what their intention.

So sometimes are very difficult. Very recently, I used to be the student for the composition, And at that time, my teacher was Akioyashiro, who has studied in Paris. And he has passed away when he was the 46 years old that really, while still I was a student at that time. But he has composed a wonderful symphony and the piano concerti and so on. And very recently, I have performed his symphony for the first time in my life and with the Sapporo Symphony Orchestra. And that was great pleasure. The rhythm called so interesting, but structure is quite classical.

So his way of composing was in a way conservative, according to the very classical structure and also rhythm pattern and so on. But the sound itself is completely new, I mean, atonal music. So it was a little difficult for me to enjoy or that kind of sound. But it's a wonderful experience. What is it you like in popular music? Popular music. Again, I don't know what kind of definition of the popular music.

Well, I like some of the singers, like Mariah Kelly, for example, and also the Whitney Houston and so on those things. That's a really wonderful music. So they are really good. good, you know, to the sinners. And also, so the texts are also very kind of cheer up the people. And that was a very positive aspect all the time. So that was very, very nice.

And sometimes in Japanese popular music, we call them one of the traditional Japanese popular music called Enka. Enka means that is the songs for the... And also the sometimes regret and so on sometimes. All the time, very often Japanese popular songs have that kind of text which describe the negative aspects of our experience. I find it's a little difficult, not difficult. I'm a little pity. What's your favorite Beatles song?

Beatles. Beatles. Yeah, Beatles. Beatles. Beatles? Beatles. I don't know. much about that.

Yeah, that's Beatles, really, I don't know. But I, when I was a brass band, you know, we played some Beatles arrangement for brass band. And that was the, that was the yellow submarine. And, yeah, one of,

one of the Beatles songs, which was the, very top, the piccolo trumpet was the, as a feature. Penny Lane, right? Penny Lane, yeah. That's very good. That is my favorite.

When you're conducting and recording, what is it you're thinking about? Do you have to concentrate completely on the music, or does your mind wander at all? No, not at all. Well, basically, I can't think anything other than music. Then what is happening? Yeah, that happened or in that bar.

And so even I can't think it was the next bar. So the only thing is that I always concentrate in what coming next, what coming next, something like that. And the purpose or aim of that part of the music. So, you know, what kind of atmosphere must be realized and so on. That is the most important things. And you're never distracted by physical troubles like I'm tired of standing or anything? Well, well, no. actually no distraction

only for the rehearsals when I start rehearsal sometimes I feel today's I'm very tired but during the rehearsal I always freshed up so that's no problem anymore because of the music

I always I can get the energy from that and how much do you need a score to conduct how much well some people conduct without a score. It's much harder. Do you need a score or you use a score? Oh, yeah, of course. Definitely. I always use the score. I never, never do anything by heart because that is not necessary.

It just takes up more brain power for no purpose? No, actually, you know, for pianists or violinist or singers, for example, they maybe they must memorize all the texts or whatsoever. And for pianists, most of the pianists are too busy, you know, to see the score. So that's the day, of course, must memorize everything. But for conductors, there's no reason to memorize, actually. So just like Anselmei said, and also choir, choir people of the sacred music, not in the opera scene or whatsoever, but they must keep the scores all in hand.

Because, you know, by memorization, you know, your understanding of the music, are changing all the time. Because to realize this and that notes and the text and so on, without mistakes and so on, then you must take different energy to keep up that. But what we should do is only to make music, to make a sound. So I think other than opera's generally performances,

I think this is better to have scores all the time. Do you just go back and listen to your old recordings for fun? Or it's finished, you're done, and you move on to the next thing? Yeah, basically, I want always to move on to the next. And never, never look back. But sometimes I were told to do that because I have to choose the concert of this and that thing to make another program or to make a recommendation of the concert and so. But basically, I don't look back at all.

But you have, say, at least two recordings of St. Matthew's Passion. I think they're about 10 years apart. Yeah. So when you did the second, was your feeling, I just wanted to do something different, or you had heard the first and you thought, no, that's wrong, I need to correct it? No, no, no. They're just different visions. Each recording, never, never, none of them was really perfect.

So I always want to do once again, like the live performance. So if I have a time, you know, I'd like to do all the contourses once again. But then after all, then I probably will want to. to do once again. So that's why there's a never-ending story. But for St. Mashi Pachian is, the first recording,

I have nothing to regret about the, in between we have, we have improved in, not only the technically, but also the understanding about the Bach and all the members,

choir member, orchestra member, have all developed quite much. So that's why as a milestone, you know, I think there's very good to do once again.

And if I could live another 30 years, and then probably I will do once again in the master's. You have one of the best-known recordings of Handel's Messiah. But as you know, there's literally hundreds of recordings of the Messiah. Do you go and listen to some of them before you record to make sure yours is different, or you just figure it will come out different? Do you listen to old ones like Beecham for inspiration? How do you approach the musical past? that is the

sometimes I need to listen to the others recording or the older one or the other kind of reference but basically I don't listen to I'm trying not to listen too much

that was too much influence and I think the make recording is very interesting because that is a quite important experience for all of us, all of our colleagues. And during the recording session, you know, many things happen.

And not all is very easy. But during that recording sessions, you know, we all take that music into any cells in our body. That is really interesting. And for example, that the Messiah recording is a long time ago. But during the recording session, these couple of... of our colleagues, the mother or father or spouse, they have passed away or something. And also my wife, the mother, has passed away

just when we finished the recording, as if she has waited for that moment. So that kind of memory is always coming back. And so it is really wonderful experience to keep going with a recording session. Session recording, that's very nice. As you must know, Apple has recently acquired BIS records, and you've done so much of your work with them.

Will that change how you approach recording projects? Well, actually, we don't know yet what's happening now. So I'm so happy to be working with the BIS all the time since 30 years now. So I really hope that we can go on in a more or less a similar way, and we have really wonderful connection, the relationship with this company. More people might hear your music, because Apple will put it higher in the algorithm, right?

What do you mean this? Well, let's say you're listening to music through Apple services, and you just type in Bach. You don't know what you want. I would think it's more likely that Apple puts you at the front because they own the rights to that music and that more people will hear you.

I'm just guessing. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe. That is what, yeah, probably, hopefully, yes. So it could be good for you. Yeah, that's very nice, yeah. So you're now at 67 years old, and you first heard Bach when you were 12 years old.

That's 55 years of listening to Bach, playing it, conducting it, recording it. Over so many years, how do you think it's affected you emotionally or spiritually or philosophically? How are you different? Internally. Wow. well I'm getting older now

so the I know Bach is always there so well I've never thought in that way the Bach is my life actually

so so familiar as if I am living inside of the Bach's music so I can never judge from outside

so yeah well actually it is not thinkable to live without Bach's music or without music and so that is

that is my life only so last two questions first what is your favorite pizza in New Haven pizza well

well to perfectly to be honest I didn't get any pizza it's very it's very good Yeah, I know. That's very famous.

Yeah. But, well, I don't like pizza so much. I'm very sorry. Last question. What will you do next? Now? Now? Well, after this project with Yale and Juliet, now we are rehearsing of the Handel's oratorio

called Lalegros Penslose at Moderato. That's a very interesting music. but after a couple of organ concerts in Japan because in Cobra in the showing chapel where we have made all the CDs recording and that organ that was built by the French organ builder called Mark Gardnier, that was exactly 40 years jibili this year

so that's why I will give a couple of concerts there so that is actually starting points of my whole career So that's really important events. And after that, I'm coming back to Europe to make another volume six or seven of the organ series in Groningen. And then I will make a tour with the orchestral Age of Enlightenment with the Christmas Oratorio, whole six parts. So that's really exciting. And next year, January, we are going to perform bronze

Deutsche Requiem with the Pileet instruments in Japan and to make a recording. That is really exciting. I look forward to that, Masaki Suzuki. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review. This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm at Tyler Cowen, and the show is at Cowan Convo's. Until next time, please keep listening and learning.