Conversations with Tyler - Sujatha Gidla on Being an Ant Amongst the Elephants (Live)

Episode Date: November 15, 2017

Sujatha Gidla was an untouchable in India, but moved to the United States at the age of 26 and is now the first Indian woman to be employed as a conductor on the New York City Subway. In her memoir Ants Among Elephants, she explores the antiquities of her mother, her uncles, and other members of her family against modern India's landscape. Through this book she redeemed the value of her family's memories, understanding her family's stories were not those of shame, but did reveal to the world the truth of India and its caste system. During her conversation with Tyler, they discuss the nature and persistence of caste, gender issues in India, her New York City lifestyle, religion, living in America versus living in India, Bob Dylan and Dalit music, American identity politics, the nature of Marxism, and why she left her job at the Bank of New York to become a New York City Subway conductor. Read a full transcript enhanced with helpful links. Recorded October 25th, 2017 Other ways to connect Follow us on Twitter and Instagram Follow Tyler on Twitter  Follow Sujatha on Twitter Email us: [e-mail] Subscribe at our newsletter page to have the latest Conversations with Tyler news sent straight to your inbox. 

Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems. Learn more at Mercadis.org. And for more conversations, including videos, transcripts, and upcoming dates, visit Conversationswithtyler.com. I'm honored here to be chatting with Sujatha. In my view, her book, Ans Among Elephants is one of the most important of this year. Let me start with a simple question of definition.

Define for us all just very quickly. Dalit, Untouchables, and Scheduled Casts. And Hurriedan. All these words for Untouchable, depending on the political era. Dalit is the latest politically correct term for Untouchable, which is also accepted by untouchables. And is it correct to say that about one-sixth of India is Dalit? Now give us an example of segregation through the caste system. as it would affect Dalits.

The word is untouchables. That is the neutral, matter-of-fact, politically neutral word. And it is all in the word. They are not to be touched. If you touch them, you're polluted and you have to cleanse yourself. And so segregation is the most prominent issue for untouchables. They are not allowed to live inside the village. Actually, all castes, they have their own colonies.

They don't mingle. But all of these colonies are inside the village, whereas untouchables are outside of the village, and they come into the village only to work. So in terms of marrying or what job you might have or what job you might be allowed to have, those would all be cases where there's significant segregation in Indian society today. Yeah. Well, you know, untouchables are, the main features are segregation and the inheritance of caste. Cast is by birth.

You cannot acquire caste. you're untouchable if you're born to untouchable family. And this is maintained by endogamy, that is marriage within one's own caste. Marriage outside of the caste is very, very stigmatized and not allowed. It's not allowed to the extent that parents themselves can kill the girl for marrying outside of the caste. Now, if I think back in time a bit, people in the United States, they're very familiar with the apartheid system of South Africa. and there was here a very strong protest movement against that. There were boycotts.

People talked about it quite frequently. With respect to the caste system in India, you have many millions of people existing in a segregated existence, segregated setup. And hardly anyone here talks about it at all. Hardly anyone complains. Why is there this difference and why do we as outsiders have such an apparently indifferent attitude for Indian caste? Well, I think first of all, America is a big country with people. the most influential country in the world, militarily and industrially the most advanced country.

So whatever happens here, it's telecast and broadcast everywhere in the world. So we come to know what happens in America, not so much the other way around. What happens in India doesn't get necessarily around. And the second thing is, while practicing caste, Indian castes and rulers are very secretive, very, very secretive about caste. They'd like to tell people that there is no such thing as caste. And one of the things that reactions to my book is that why is she washing the dirty linen in the public?

Why is she telling everybody there is caste system? What would the Dalit critique of Gandhi be? So often Westerners think of Gandhi, who is someone almost saintly, yet a lot of the Dalit's, Dr. Rambidkar would be the most obvious example, had a very strong debate with Gandhi. Over what? Well, Ambethkar was the leader of the untouchables. He devoted his life for the untouchables, and he saw the people and he himself saw him as the Moses of the untouchables,

that he was going to lead them out of, you know, emancipate them. And Gandhi wanted to encroach on this leadership. He wanted to claim leadership of all of the people in India, including untouchables and Muslims. So there is a tussle between Ambet, and Gandhi, who is the real representative of untouchables? In your view, to what extent are the sexual harassment and rape problems in India in some way actually problems of caste?

Well, you know, caste, as I said, the endogamy marrying within owns caste, once-owned caste and not allowed to marry outside the caste is really one of the features that you can say is the crux of caste system. And so because of this, there is a lot of things. restrictions on women's freedom because they don't want her to marry someone outside of the caste. So although there is, women's oppression is everywhere in the world, even in America, as you know, but the particular intensity of women's oppression stems out of caste restrictions from, you know, they are not allowed to marry from outside. So because of how much value you put on

the girl's chastity, that becomes a very valuable thing for them, like women's chastity is a valuable thing for their community and for the family. So if you want to insult someone and if you want to hurt someone, the cruelest way is to rape somebody. So it's the other side of the coin that you put so much stress on the chastity of the woman and violating it is the worst hurt you can inflict on somebody. And so it all comes from caste if you want to insult somebody. example, in partition of India into Pakistan, the women's rape of women is like a major, major feature. Now, I come at this very much as an outsider, but I tend to think of Indian caste as intersecting

with at least a few different things. Let me mention them. Maybe you can give us a framework for thinking about it. Cast and vegetarianism, so Dalits are less likely to be vegetarian, caste and one's philosophy of interaction with dead bodies, and also caste and notions of defecation. open defecation, and cleaning up of open defecation. What's your take on how all of that intersects with caste and the segregated Indian system? Well, actually, you know, people might mistakenly think not all Indians or vegetarians.

It's only the Brahmins who are not allowed to eat meat or fish. Even that is not true of all the places in India. Like for Bihar, they eat beef, Brahmins, and in Calcutta they eat fish. in our areas they don't eat meat or eggs or anything like that and beef is a taboo for all of Hindus except Dalits Dalits survived on carcass the dead animals what else did you want to?

Handling of dead bodies and handling of defecation and sanitary issues. How does that intersect with caste and jobs of different cast members? Cast is also about occupation. It's an imposed occupation. Each cast has a its own occupation. And the occupations that are given are forced on untouchables are what are what Hindu societies deems, you know, unclean and menial. So all of these things, that handling of the dead bodies and tannery, removing dead animals and cleaning larynx,

of course, nobody else wants to do. So it's an occupation imposed on untouchables. So you're critic of this form of segregation. But let's say you had a very intelligent Indian here who is in some way a defender or apologist for the system or a critic of you. What is it they would say in response to you? Well, first of all, you know, somewhat timid people will say there is no such thing as caste. And some people will say caste is by your merit. It's not discriminatory based on your caste. Whoever is intelligent can become Brahmins. That is. like pure nonsense because caste is by birth. And some people actually like the person in your blog says that caste gives color to society, you know, like different cast make it interesting. So why

doesn't he want to be an untouchable for a change if that's what he wants? One person said to me, tell me if you agree or not, cast mostly disappears when you move to an Indian city. That is not true. I mean, cast is basically a village-based institution. That's where it is most regress. rigorously practiced. But even when you come to towns like my family did, we lived in a segregated area and we were not allowed to rent houses in other areas. At one time, my father's friend agreed to take us in, but when we went there with all our things, the wife said, no, you can't have them here. So let's say you belong to one of the lower casts and are your family. You decide to convert to Christianity, to Buddhism, as Dr. Ambidkar did, to Islam, to Sikhism.

What then happens? Does caste go away? No, it doesn't. You know, there is a confusion introduced in the caste system because people think Hinduism is casteism. It's in a way, right? Because Hinduism is a tailor-made religion. And as one anthropologist said, it's a mysticism, but basically it's a system to prop up caste system. It tells you the rules for untouchables and for women. That is all Hinduism is about. Sean of mysticism, it's a prop for caste system. And so a caste system is a social issue, but the religion coincides with the social. That's why it looks like it's a religious issue. It's not actually a religious issue. Therefore, when people convert to other religions, hoping that

they will not be untouchables anymore, they will be disappointed because there is casteism in Christians and Dalits and Sikhs and any other religion in India. It's a social issue. Does Facebook make the caste system worse because maybe it's harder to move to another village and pretend you don't know anyone from your old caste? I can't comment on that very much, but I mean, I don't think it makes it any more difficult. It's already difficult enough, you know. How would you think analytically about the forces that keep the caste system in place? As you know, Article 17 of the Indian Constitution, it at least nominally outlaws caste,

the Indian president, not the most important office as here, but it's been. in Adelaide as president. Legally, there's a system of reservations that's in some ways similar to our affirmative action to give Dalit's preferential treatment for some kinds of government jobs or posts and schools. Given those forces pushing against caste, what is keeping caste segregation in place?

Well, caste is basically, you know, it stems out of an economic system. It stems out of occupation. It stems out of what job you do in the society. So as long as the production, is organized in such a way that you want a certain group of people always be available to do menial work and do the hard work. If the economic system requires that, then the forces will try to keep untouchables in their place so that they can be used as laborers. So it does not go

away unless the system of the economic system and the system of production are radically changed. So let's say you come to the United States, as you did at age 26, and there are a large number of Indians in the United States, including, of course, in New York, New Jersey. How much does the caste system persist here in this country amongst Indians? Very much. I had bad experiences when I first came here because I knew nobody else but Indians. And once I was able to make friends with Americans, I never, never went back to Indian networks. It's a very rabid system. So immigrant associations ostensibly they are there to celebrate Indian culture and festivals, but they're actually the cast groups.

Some hide behind culture, but some others openly say that this is Brahmin American Association. And if you want to join the Facebook page, you have to tell their shibolets like, what's your gotra, what's your this, what's your horoscope, this, that. and we're not able to tell them because we don't know what, you know. And those are indicators of caste. So in your view, should caste-based discrimination amongst Indians be recognized as a form of discrimination in American law? With regard to race, you know, what's going to happen if you recognize this as a, you know, a legally objectionable thing?

Nothing happens. And I don't think any of such thing can happen with caste, you know, and These people, the Brahmins are formally entrenched in all high places in America. If you look at TV anchors, they're all Brahmists. If you look at people who work in New York Times, they're all Brahmins. If you look at people who are in Trump's administration, they're all uppercast. And they're never ever going to allow this thing to be recognized as a discrimination. So here in America, we have this thing.

People call it identity politics. And they mean many different things. with that term. I would say it's more prominent in the Democratic Party than Republican, though the Republican Party has its own unnamed brand of white identity politics often. But when you see the ways in which people are informally grouped into different categories here, whether it be ethnicity or gender or sexual orientation, coming at this from Andra Pradesh as a Dalit, how do you perceive this institution of ours? Institution of our identity politics. Do you think, oh, the Americans have done it right? Do you think

the Americans are crazy? How do you feel about how we do identity politics? I'm against identity politics. Altogether. For sure, yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, I have seen bad things happen with identity politics, with untouchables as well. I mean, all they fight for is reservations.

The reservations is based on your suffering or suffering of untouchables in the villages. So if you want reservations, then you are indirectly asking for discrimination to be continued on the basis of which you can gain a few seats in universities and political places. So the system of reservation in India, which is a form of affirmative action for lower cast, you think that's a bad idea? It's not, I mean, if I were there in the circumstances where that's being, you know, implemented or written into constitution, I wouldn't have been fighting actively for reservations because reservations is like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.

So I would not be fighting for that. What I would be fighting for is equal access in all spheres of life. But reservations are here, whether I fought for it or not. And attack on them is definitely a reactionary thing to do. And I would defend reservations from being attacked by upper caste people. But reservations have done nothing much at all for untouchables. And there are a lot of downsides for reservations. Now I had some Indians write me emails.

I found this somewhat unusual. And they asked, well, you need to find out about how she got a master's from a very good school, starting off as a dolly from a village. Yeah. And they were very intent on knowing to what extent you had used reservations. You don't have to tell us. Feel free to tell us what you want. I will say this. Everybody is dying to know whether I got into university because of reservations.

My answer to them is go ahead and die. you know yeah yeah so this is because this is going to be out in the public I'm not going to give them

the satisfaction of knowing whether I got in because of reservations or not but I can tell you in private whether how I got into engineering in big institutes now I'd like to ask you some questions about your life yeah but I would just stress please if you don't want to answer

anything feel free to just leave it aside and we'll move on but in India how and why were you arrested and at what age? I was 19 years old. I lived in a very poor neighborhood and it affected me a lot. And also, I must say that Christianity had an effect on us. And your family is Christian. We view Christianity as a religion of kindness and compassion.

And so that is how we started. Then we moved into communism. And so I always want, I thought Christian brotherly love is the way to immense. of all oppression in the world. But when I grew up and I saw in churches, people being discriminated, rich people and poor people in church, I thought, I don't know what Jesus is going to do in the other world, but nothing is happening now. So to me, what my uncle was doing seemed appealing at that time. It was very highly romantic movement, you know, like young people from high caste and very wealthy young people, people who had like great futures, you know, saccharacterial. sacrifice that and they were fed into the maw of state repression. And I was one of them. Like, I wanted to do something for the people.

What was it like being in prison after you were arrested? I really went blank, you know, after I got arrested, I really went blank. And things were happening to me, things were being done to me, but I really, really went blank. And I accepted torture also in the same manner. And I was in the jail and for three months. And then I was released. And my fervor has had, certainly calmed down in the sense that, like, I don't want to be romantic by getting arrested and killed or something like that. But I still held the views of equality and justice, social justice. And this experience made you more of a Christian, less of a Christian? No, I ditched Christianity when I was 12 years old. I never went back to it. And your views evolved into... Well, I'm still, I consider still myself a Marxist. Do you think of yourself as a Marxist in the sense of being a radical egalitarian, or a Marxist in the sense of wanting the government to own all of the means of production at some point? It's a worldview. I would say Marxism is a worldview, and Marxism

looks at the world in terms of class. Like feminists look at the world as men and women, and religious people look at the world as Christians and non-Christians, and Marxists look at people as workers and capitalists, and that is the worldview I hold. And I look at the world. I look at the at problems arising out of class difference and I look at solutions that could arise out of, you know, class action. Now at age 26, you left India, you come to the United States. How is it that happened? Obviously, there may have been things you wanted to leave, but we all know migration is often shaped by social networks. There were, especially at that time, a relatively small number of Dalits here in the United States, so you didn't have that network so much to connect

to you're from a village in India. What sort of mentally emotionally brought you to coming to this country? Well, everybody loves to be in America. There are people who woke like mental about wanting to go to America. So I'm not an exception. But my idea of coming here is to be more free. Women are very, very, very repressed in India compared to here. You know, like I was the first, people call me the first woman to be riding a bicycle in my town, but I'm really not the first one. There are two other girls, but they're like close their legs like this and like drive, paddle like that. I used to paddle like a man.

And there is not much scope for people like me to be in India. If you want to be free and nonchalant and, you know, carefree like guys, there's no scope there. So my main thing is to be free. intellectually free and, you know, free to pursue culture. And even reading books is like, why is a woman reading books, you know? So for me, coming to America means a lot of social freedom. And when you came here expecting some kind of freedom, what was your biggest surprise?

Biggest surprise? Because you hadn't visited before, right? You just came. It was this huge decision with your life. You're staking this huge move on a notion of freedom. and you come here. This is, of course, not in every way a free country. It's far from perfect.

I fear we may have disappointed you in some ways. But what was your biggest surprise? I can't think of anything, but I used to think all old people that are by themselves, going around by themselves, are like beggars. Because old women don't go out by themselves. So I used to give money to these rich old women. Despite their like brooches and,

Now, you mentioned a moment ago you had, broadly speaking, a Marxist view. As I'm sure you know, there's a whole intellectual movement of pro-capitalist Dalits. Chandrabhan Prasad would be one of them. And what do you think of them and where do you differ? The particular person, Chandrabhan Prasad, he makes me puke. Tell us why? He was in the same Radical Students' Union as I was, even though much older than me. and he went to JNU, which is like the highest university in India for humanities.

And he studied something or the other sociology or something. And the knowledge that he gained from being in RSU, Radical Students' Union, and what he studied made him a good person to defect and, you know, become a mouthpiece for, you know, Dalit entrepreneurship and Dalit capitalism. And Dalit capitalists, yeah, there are a few. There were none before. There are a few. I think that it's a kind of like they were given some kind of like, I don't know,

perk to become capitalists so that people won't say, oh, how come you're so casteists, you don't have any Dalit capitalists. But Dalit capitalists are very, very much lower compared to other capitalists from other cast. But if you think of yourself as a Marxist and you came to one of the most capitalist societies for freedom, is that in some way a contradiction in your worldview or you think it all makes sense? No, it's not. As I said, Marxism means class versus class, not a nation versus nation. In India, there are poor people and rich people. And in America, there are poor people and rich people. And why is it some sort of defection if I came here? I came here not to become a capitalist. You've had two jobs here, or at least two jobs. One, you worked in the financial sector for the Bank of New York for a while, I believe, until 2009. And now you're a conductor of subway trains for the MTA in New York City. Which of those two jobs have you enjoyed more? I would say MTA job, because in Bank of New York, I was making much more money. Even in 2009, I was making like almost three times what I make in MTA. And then I have like unlimited

sick leave and personal days and five weeks vacation and stock options and things like that. But the people are really so boring and uncosmopolitan. There are such narrow-minded people that I had this a figurine of Darwin on my desk, and this guy was glaring at me because he's a Catholic. Charles Darwin. Yeah. Yes. And we're not like that in MTA.

We are very open and very passionate. We're much more cosmopolitan. We discuss things openly and uninhibitedly, and yet at the same time, we don't hurt each other. And you wrote your book, Ants Among Elephants, while you had this full-time job as a subway conductor for the MTA. And you wrote it during the evening or what kind of hours did you have? When did you write? How did you do it? Actually, I didn't do it. That's right. It took 10 years. Ten years. And then I grew up in a family where there are always 25 people milling around in the house. So we were like sitting on the steps of the house trying to concentrate.

So I never sat at desk. So now it is how I work. I cannot work at a desk in silence and in my privacy and things like that. I work while commuting on the train. And I used to work during breaks at work like that. And the break, you're literally on the train. right? You're not in an office. No, no, no. In the beginning, the beginners are called extra extra, meaning that they're sitting there and if somebody got sick or they have to go home, they will

jump in and take their job. So half the time, we're just sitting around for eight hours and going home and half the time we're taking over for somebody else. So I always used to carry a computer with me. And one of the names I have is a computer girl, apart from Hindu conductor. Okay. What is it about the MTA that attract so many interesting people? It's very multiracial workforce. Not so much from Western Europe, but all the other colored countries and Eastern Europe people, they are there. They bring in their own experience, and they talk about it in crew rooms, and it's just more entertaining. For me, the thing is that I was working in Bank of New York writing programs, and I had no idea

what it was I was writing programs for. I should have known, but I didn't really care. But now I know what I'm doing is how it's affecting. We're taking people from point A to point B where they want to go. I know for sure that what I'm doing is very useful. And that makes me feel self-confident. And what are the personal qualities you feel you have that make you a good MTA conductor? Well, you know, it's a very very strict job.

It's like a run on military kind of, you know, lines. If you have to be there at 2032, then you have to be there at 2032. It's all very difficult for me. But I really like the, I don't know, I mean, I'm pleasant when I'm helping people and I'm conscientious to help people, not say get away from me. I don't know. I mean, yeah. I don't know.

I mean, I like to be a good co-worker rather than a good conductor. Okay. Yeah. In these interviews, there's always a segment in the middle called overrated versus underrated. Oh, yeah. I know. Yeah. And I'm going to toss out some mentions.

And again, you're free to pass if you don't want to comment on them. But I'll say a few things and you tell us if it's overrated or underrated. Okay. In Manhattan, the cluster of Indian restaurants at about Lexington and 28th Street, overrated or underrated? Normally rated. Normally rated. But I would say that all the restaurants on 6th Avenue, like St. Marks, they're all trash.

I agree. There's not one I would want to eat. Yeah, no, yeah. And Jackson Heights and Queens for Indian food, overrated or underrated? Underrated. Okay, still, you think. Bob Dylan. Underrated.

I like Bob Dylan. I like him a lot. And why do you like him? I don't know. That's what I grew up with. I mean, we got all. the music and movies 10 years after you have them. So even though I wasn't from the Beatles and Bob Dylan Times, that's what we got when I was growing up. And it really fascinated me that someone

who's singing nasally can be a popular writer, singer, yeah. What is it from Bob Dylan? What song, what album, what something had the most impact on you? God, my memory fails me. Actually, You know, his post in his Christian era. Yes. He has that name, man gave name to all the animals. Yes. I love that song. Okay.

Now, in Adalit music, there's something called Dapu music. Yeah. And some of it uses, whether it has a lot of percussion, overrated or underrated? Underrated. Yes. And what's special about it? The drum is used for calling people to a village meeting. Yes.

So it's the job of a particular untouchable cast. I don't know. They play very well. It's like amazing. I don't know. You did, of course, leave India, but what for you about India is most underrated? Vegetables grown naturally and fruits grown naturally. They're all disappearing now. The A train. I don't mean the song, take the A train.

I mean the A train. It cuts through such an amazing swath of history of New York, Manhattan, Brooklyn, different social classes, different economic classes. The A train, overrated or underrated? Underrated. Underrated. I agree. The Indian scheme of biometric identification.

That is a totally anti-people measure. Tell us why. Because, you know, it's like if somebody says that, oh, you know, the chair I'm sitting in is uncomfortable. It's like, oh, yeah, I'll solve the problem and kick this chair out from under the person who is sitting and complaining. So people don't have very low literacy rates, and how are they able to do? do these things, people are just dying because they have to have minimum balance in the bank

and they don't know how to open bank accounts and their money is taken away. I'm sorry, I think I'm digressing, but this whole technology thing is, you know, like it's under the thing of ostensibly, it's like to streamline the system and to curb corruption and to bring everybody into the mainstream. That is nonsense. It's all about exploitation used to be like giving people low wages, but now the exploitation is taking back what they already have. But let's say I'm a technocrat. I look at Indian aid to the poor. A lot of it is in kind, in the form of food, a high percentage of the food rots. And I say, we're going to scan everyone's identity biometrically and just send them cash. What will go wrong from doing that?

Give cash to people instead of... To their bank accounts. electronically, rather than giving them in-kind food aid. Is that more efficient? Are you worried about the loss of privacy? Are you worried about some kind of autocratic control from having information very exact about everyone's identity? Privacy and all this thing is a big concern, but the concern really is that all these measures are now, there was one measure, I think it's called demonetization.

Yes. It's, they, they scrapped 500 rupee bills and 1,000 bills. And so all these small time business people, tea vendors, they're all like just overnight, they lost all their money. They keep their money in their houses. There's a woman in our neighborhood. She sold her house and she's going to live on her money. And she kept all the money in $500 bills in the house.

And as soon as this thing was announced and it was told, she was told, that your money is nothing but paper. She died of heart attack, and it's not an isolated incident. Like hundreds of people died of this demonetization. So you're critical of the current regime in India? Yes. Yeah.

They first stripped the farmers of their lands and let them die. So far, 450,000 farmers killed themselves, suicides. And now they turned their focus on small business people, and now they're pauperized. Williamsburg, Brooklyn, overrated or underrated? Overrated. Why? Because I don't really identify with the crowd there.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And I think, you know, hipsters is just in clothes and stuff, but not in attitude. So they're conformists, ultimately. Yeah, yeah. And what's like a special, cherished, treasured part of New York for you that maybe not everyone knows about? Where I live, barrage. Bay Ridge, and what makes that special?

There are different kinds of immigrant groups, Arabs and Bangladeshis and Spanish people, and it used to be Greek and Irish, and now Indians, and it's a very safe place, and we have restaurants from, you know, different parts of the world. Everything is closed by, things like that. What is the hardest part about your job as an MTA conductor? Oh, yeah, the hardest part is, like, you cannot take days off. You have to apply 20 days before to get a day off. And there's limited sick leave, presumably?

Yes. Yeah. What's the strangest use you've ever heard of or seen for a New York subway car? Strangest use. No, I can't think of anything right now. Is the L-line the best subway for getting to Brooklyn from Midtown? Uh-huh, yes. From where to mid-town? The L-line.

Say Canarsie to a... the Avenue. Would you take the L-line? Yes, definitely. Absolutely. It used to be called the double L-line when I was a kid. I was shocked to learn it's now the L-line. I don't know why they did that. For me, that's very confusing. But I don't actually take the subway much at all.

If you were to describe to us, your take, what's going on in India now? So if I were to ask a neoliberal, they would say something like, well, Modi, he's trying to be a reformer. Maybe he doesn't have the will. Maybe the special interest groups are interfering. He's not getting much reform done. Things are progressing and fits and starts, but there's no great, wonderful turnaround, but India is still growing.

This is a country we should be positive about. That would be a normal sort of neoliberal take. I would hear from a lot of people, say, in the investment community. But your overall take on where India is now and where it's headed, how would you put your alternate version of what's going on? Well, India, it's not under Modi that these bad things are happening. they have been started by Congress, the so-called Liberal Party, which I would compare to probably the Democratic Party here.

They have started all these measures themselves in 1991 after the market liberalization. And Modi is shoving them down our throats. And, you know, Congress probably had some kind of, like, you know, hesitation in imposing these measures. but that's why India, I guess, needed somebody like a guy like Modi, who can just terrorize people into accepting these things. And in India, I don't know for whom it's developing, but for the majority of people, it's going down.

And I can say from my point of view, there may be some Ambani's and Adanis that are profiting from it, but everybody else is losing. If you think of the Bengali intellectual class from India, do you think of that itself as yet another cast creation like a cast club? Yeah, yeah. Bengalis, you know, Bengali is like the Renaissance of India, and they consider themselves culturally superior, like the French think of themselves in Europe. And, yeah, they're very proud about that, yeah. By the way, I think that, like, the French are still lying on the laurels of French Revolution. long gone and they have nothing else to show for it now.

If you think of the Indian Communist Party, would you consider that to also be, in some sense, fundamentally, a caste creation? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not in the program of Communist Party to be casteist, but all these leaders, they came from Gandhi's party and all they wanted is to be, for the nationalism to be militant. Like Gandhi says, don't be violent. And yet his idea is that we should get independent.

Whereas communists are like, we want independence, but we'll be breaking chairs and benches for getting it. So that's the only difference. There's no programmatic difference. These are the people who came from nationalist Indian Congress and joined the communists. And they bring along with them their caste attitudes. And why do you think the caste system has been and remained so strong in India compared to other countries? What accounts for that? I mean, what other countries have untouchability? I know that Japan and Yemen have it.

Groups that are a much smaller percentage of the population. So if Dalits are about a sixth of India, even though there's no census, it's going to be a very large number of people. As a country, it would be one of the larger countries in the world. So to have untouchability on such a scale, persisting for so long, what is it about India that you think has led to that? Well, you know, I'm not a social scientist, but I can only guess from what I read. think that there's some special geological geographical climatic conditions that necessitated for some caste system to be there to division of labor because if land is everybody oh actually there's an example in australia when people went from england to colonize people went there

and some people were taken as the servants there and servants soon found land of their own and they were no longer servants. So that's the case in India. So people had to be forced into a caste system. Some Indians have claimed to me that very often the intermediate classes oppress the lower classes more than the Brahmins do. Would you agree? Yeah, I do.

There's also a series of claims made, even within untouchability, that there are significant distinctions. So many Indians will say, well, the Mala's oppressed the Mandigas, and that that's as bad an oppression problem as the problems across caste. Would you agree with that? No, I don't. Because these divisions were created by, we were not aware of, I mean, there are cast divisions, but we all consider ourselves as untouchables. We didn't think that we have to steal from them or deprive from them. But this is, you know, reservations is there to give chances for untouchables, but there are so many things that undermine this. So one of the things that they do is divide untouchables and make them fight over the common reserved seats. Now, we've been talking a lot about some fairly general issues, but most of your book actually is a very particular tale, tale of your family, tale of your uncle, tale of your mother,

tale of other relatives. You appear in the story toward the end as a young girl. Let me just ask you a few questions about that story. It's not possible to recount the entire story here. But if you think back on your uncle, who is a famous and very influential revolutionary, what is your most touching memory of your uncle that you have? Well, actually, I didn't see my uncle until just before I came here. I never saw him before.

Touching moment. So I can't say that, but... Because he was in hiding, right? Yeah, he was in hiding. So you were uncovering exposed, this long history of his, and you barely knew him. Yeah. Yeah. Your most touching memory of your mother?

I don't know. I mean, when I was arrested, she was very worried. She said, I wish I could take you back into my womb. So, you know. And you have siblings, right? Yeah. Are they in India? Do they live here?

My sister lives here in Long Island. She is a physician. Yes. And my brother is in Canada. He's a chemical engineer. He works as a technology consultant for oil companies. So the children in your family, they've been very successful. What is it in your upbringing that you would attribute that to?

That there's three of you, you know, doing great in different ways. Yeah. What's the ultimate source of that success? I think that, you know, India provided narrow windows of opportunity for untouchables. And it's like we were driving in a car and all the lights were turning green just in time. So the missionaries were one such opportunities. They came in my great-grandmother's time. So she was able to get educated because of missionaries.

And my parents' generation, they got educated because it's all, the whole fervoir. of, you know, just got independence, people are more liberal towards others. And in my generation, I had the benefit of two generations behind me in the tradition of education. I like the story very much in the book where your mother is trying to feed you cornflakes and you're rebelling. Yeah. How did she bring you all up? What was her philosophy of parenting? Well, she wanted us to go to school and get educated. They are against humanities. They think that if one day there will be a revolution, you're required to teach something else other than what is a fact, like in history or something like that. But if it's science, it's going to stay

irrespective of what society you are in. And as the years past, do you view your own thought as becoming more radical or more conservative? And why? More radical, but, you know, I refrain from talking about Obama or feminism, Black Lives Matter There are certain things that I don't want to talk about because they sound like conservative views but I am radical.

So you think that what we hear consider radical is actually conservative and this is like a grand American illusion of some kind. I'm sorry, what? Well, you said there are things you don't want to talk about because I will alienate people. You know, people read this book and they think that, oh, she's automatically

going to be a feminist. she's automatically going to be a supporter of Democratic Party. She's automatically an admirer of Obama, which I'm not. And what is that? And this will alienate people. So that's why I'm afraid of, like, saying these things outside. If you think about these aspects in American society that you're unhappy about, what would your critique consist of?

So if you don't like Obama or you're unhappy with some parts of feminism or Black Lives Matter, how would you articulate your critique? Well, you know, the Democrats and the Republicans, by and large, they have the same interests. And the Democrats act like they're liberal. They act like they are for women's rights, they're for gay rights and things like that. But on the whole, they are the same. And Obama here comes and he's like pretending to be like, you know, such a great guy. This guy wrote a book called We Were in Power for eight years.

who is in power for eight years? I don't understand that. And all these policies that the Democrats have, those are the same things that Trump is doing. Like Obama Care is his biggest thing. What is it? Like he, I mean, without pre-condition, I mean, pre-existing condition insurance. Apart from that, I don't see any benefit from it, you know. The final question, before I let all of you ask questions, but after all the years now you've lived here, are you optimistic about this country? And if so, why or why not? You know, when Trump came to power,

people were all saying that, oh, my God, we're doomed and stuff like that. I thought maybe it's a chance for people to, like, really see what's going on here and no longer be silent about things. So I was optimistic about that in that sense. But I think that, yeah, things can happen to make, you know, this country better.

Sujatha, thank you very much. I'm a huge fan of you in your book. Thank you. Thank you. We now move to questions. Again, keep in mind, this will be recorded and made public. So artificial intelligence analyzing voice is a science that will progress. In that sense, you're on the record, but feel free to ask whatever you want.

Hands. Yes. So if you, as a thought of parliament, were the prime minister of India or had a very large political influence of over India, what is it that you would do to fight the caste system or to fight against segregation? You know, like, governments, they preside over a certain society. So even if I become the Prime Minister of India, I can't do anything about caste system, you know, being in a government that rules the same kind of society. The society has to be changed, not the government.

Yes, Kate. Have you been to Washington, do you think? No, not really. like to go to Washington, D.C.? Yeah, I suppose, yeah. We'd be happy to host you if you ever come down. Okay. Yes.

Charitable organization and education, they're all within the same framework. I would have to say things that I may be hesitant to say, but the social structure has to be basically, you know, smashed and rebuilt on a collectivized basis. Everything should be run, you know, Agriculture should be collectivized and industry should be under the state and foreign policy should be monopoly of the state. Yes.

So when people ask you where you're from, how do you respond to that question? If foreigners ask me, I will say I'm from India. But if Indians ask me, I have to say which state and what caste. And would an Indian, you would meet, say, in Manhattan, would that person know right away that you're untouchable? One thing is that most of the Christians, except Syrian Christians and some Catholic Christians in Goa, Christians are untouchables. Christians are untouchable. So immediately the lack of forehead dot tells them that I'm an untouchable. And also, you know, there's a study like, you know, Indians are like genetically like same, but apparently you could tell when the endogamy began. And so it's 1,500 years ago, people are different.

You know, there is some extra genetic thing that we inherit from castes. And I think that people's body languages can, language can easily tell which cast you are. And when I came here, people would always constantly ask me if I'm walking on the street, like, why are you sad, smile, life is not that bad and things like that. I didn't think that I was sad, but everybody was saying that. And other people used to think, why are you so anxious, just calm down and things like that, you know? So as far as untouchables are concerned and Brahmins are concerned, you can tell from the body language itself who you are.

There's a Russian philosophy that if you walk around smiling, you must be a fool. Next question. Yes. I'm wondering if you think that your perception of caste. system might be affected by which caste you're from? Like if you're a brahman, maybe you don't feel the effect of the system that much and would not be... That's true, yeah. I mean, Brahmin's like caste system. This guy on your blog was saying, you know, like castism is very, very good and probably they should adopt it for American society. Wasn't he saying that? I think he was implying

it at least. Yeah. Next question. Yes. So you don't think very highly about Balma. Are there any American politicians who you admire or at least think you're doing something useful? No. If you had in the room an American who had never been to India, but was planning a trip to India, just to learn, discover, also enjoy,

what advice would you give them for how they should do that trip? I can go with the mundane things that don't eat anything that's not cooked. Intellectual advice. Intellectual advice for understanding. it or what they should try to experience or where they should go or what they should see. I mean, it depends on the person's interest, right?

Sure. So people who really want to see what 80% of India is like, they should go to the villages. And if people want to see the beauty of India, nature and all that kind of stuff, they should go to Kerala. If people want to see the splendor of the Rajas, they should go to Jaipur. and if they want to see the squalor and all that stuff, they should go to Calcutta. And Banaras is the place for, it's like the Mecca of India, because it's on the banks of ganges.

And you can look at it in two different ways. Brahms will have such ecstatic experience when they go there. But at the same time, other people go there, they will see the filth and how polluted the riveries and, you know, so that's there. If you go there. And Goa is a place for beaches and fun and drugs and things like that. Next question, yes. You know, I'm not, you know, a supporter of the regime in China or in Cuba,

but from all developmental indexes, they're doing well, right? There is more literacy in China and more literacy in Cuba and less infant mortality is better, and even women's equality is better. I know, I mean, it's not, you know, perfect, but they're better in these two countries. I don't know much about North Korea, but yeah. Yes. Do you mention that you're not a feminist? What a difference is?

I mean, feminists basically look as the world as divided between men and women, and I don't think that. And feminists have, you know, like lately have become such a force for backwardness in the sense that, like, for example, the burqa and the Muslim women in Europe, they want to rip the burqa off because burqa is, you know, a symbol of women's oppression. But they don't see, like, you can't just do like that, you know. The point is you give the choice to the people to where the burqa are not where the burqa, but not like you forcibly take the burqa. work off. And that's one of the feminist things I don't like. And then this Nordic model that they have in Sweden and they're appropriating it in Germany. And when you say Nordic model, what do you mean? The prostitution, they're now arresting the people who seek prostitutes. The male customers, yes. That is, I think, is draconian. I mean, not all prostitutes are forced into it. What do men do

if they don't have any partner. And it's livelihood for many women. So I think that in the guise of feminism, people are really putting, they are really putting restrictions on individual liberty. Yes, in the back. What can America learn from India in terms of how some of the social problems in India

has thought that you mentioned and the problems that we're doing with now in America? Not much, you know. I mean, I think that, you know, India is still, it's one of the countries where communism is still a popular thing, not something that people will shirk from. But Indian communism is not that great. So from that point of you, there's nothing to learn from.

But Modi and Trump are seen as, you know, birds of the same feather. If they want to learn how to do bad things they can learn from each other. Yes. What is your opinion of Mother Teresa? You know, the whole Christian missionary thing, it is part of a white man's burden, bring a prop for colonization. But people who join those missionaries, the white people who join those missionaries, not all of them are like aware that we are going there to get people's support for our colonizers.

There are people who are sincerely there to help people. And Mother Teresa, I don't know what her grand scheme was, but she really did a lot of good things in India. And she's now a big target for Hindu-Hindutva people. They say that she's an agent of imperialism, agent of colonialism. She's someone who's spoiling Indian culture, trying to convert people into Christianity. She's a devil. and she doesn't deserve to be canonized and things like that. Mother Teresa is a big target for Hindutva people.

I don't have, you know, she did good things for us. I mean, she may have some other ideas, but they are not perceived by us. What we perceived is she did a lot of good things. Next question, yes. So you mentioned that one of the things that led you and your family to sort of successfully move out of, where your class, where your class was trying to place you, was education.

Yeah. To what extent do you think education, to what role do you think education has in refiguring the social system, the caste system on a larger scale, or is it a thing that could only be possible for a few? You know, Ambethker's slogan is educate, organize, and agitate. This is a big thing for untouchables. they think that their emancipation lies in getting educated. But it may be true, but after education, they're not getting jobs.

What can they do with education if there are no jobs? Question over here. Do you see cast in the Indian film industry at all? Like, do you see any film being made that talk about these issues? You know, in the beginning, just after independence, when we were all filled with the fervor of, you know, Indians all equal, brothers, sisters. At that time, there were a lot of movies talking about caste system where the hero who is a Brahmin marries an untouchable woman and things like that. But the politics and society

has changed now. They no longer talk about social issues anymore. There used to be films about dowry system. There used to be films about laborers. There used to be films about untouchability. But now it's not that. Actually, the film Bahubali, which probably you heard of, right? It's like highest-grossing Indian film or something like that. It's like through and through cast film, you know? It talks as if, like, they say that like there are certain people born to rule and certain people who are born to be ruled.

It's just outright cast-ist film. Are there major Bollywood actors and actresses who are Dalits? No. Next question. No question. Do your family members share your political music at this point? your family members who are in the United States and Canada? Actually, the only relation I have with my family members is political views.

If we have to connect on familial links, we will always be fighting and killing each other. All that we talk about with my mother is politics and untouchability and caste and Modi and things like that. It's the same thing with my sister also. This is where we connect. otherwise we are like enemies. But my brother, we are completely alienated from each other. Firstly, because he goes to church now, you know. We never used to go to church before.

And he's into this, you know, like Ayacocca. Is there a name? Ayakoka? Lee Ayakoka? Yeah. The Chrysler, former Chrysler chairman? Yeah. He reads that kind of books.

Management books. Yeah, yeah. He's into that kind of stuff. And you don't? No. He read Freakonomics and he liked it. Yes. I don't relate to that stuff.

What would you say is the book in fiction that's influenced you most? I liked certain books like Independent People by Haldor Lachness. He's an Icelandic writer. I like that book a lot. It's a really huge book. And I think that they categorize it as social realism. I liked it a lot. And then as for nonfiction, I read this book, A Hindu Holiday by J.R. Ackarly.

He went to India in 1920s and spent some time. That's really hilarious and well-written book. I like that. As for comedy, there is Amanda Filipachi or Filipaki. She wrote a book called Love Cripes. It's really, really hilarious book where the protagonist, a woman, she has everything that she wants,

and now she desires desiring. Because there's nothing else to desire for her. She's, like, depressed now. She goes around looking for things that she can desire and not get. That was a funny book. I liked it. Chester Heim's is a black writer.

He wrote Black. black detectives and that stuff is funny. Actually, I'm reading one right now, a blind man with a pistol. And then, I don't know, a lot of books I like. Ferranti, I couldn't finish that book, yeah. Somebody else is like her book is supposed to be fictional realism. I don't really know what is the magical realism,

social realism, fictional realism is. if everything has to be categorized in this sense, I'll call my book real realism. And for the future, is there anything you could tell us about what you're thinking or what you're planning in terms of further writing or expressing your ideas more? There is, I mean, you know that people with my kind of views, they don't get published in New York Times and things like that. So that's out for me. I don't like writing fiction.

I like writing nonfiction, but only the kind of you. issues that I have, which involves enthusiastic storytellers like my family. And as centered around an issue, for example, the farmer's suicide in India. If we get some storytellers like that who are involved with that issue, then I'd like to write. But otherwise, I don't see any point to write. Do you think there'll ever be a time where you write about life in the United States? Maybe, yeah, possible. Time for one more question. Yes.

Have you traveled much in other countries and you have thoughts about life there? I went to Mexico to a place called Porto Wayarta. It's actually a friend had a medical conference. I tagged along and they were having this huge conference and I was sitting in the middle and typing away, writing my book. I went to Mexico. I didn't see much of it. It's a beach place. And then I went to, recently I went to Czech Republic. People are really like not that very interesting to talk to and interact with.

And for them, Americans are like really a huge deal. Like it's like some movie stars or something like that. And people are still, you know, missing things from the socialist days, how things were better. I think that beggars there, it's a new thing for people to beg. so they didn't know, they don't really know how to bag. They just like supplicate entirely on the ground. Like they don't look up like they just do like this. I found it very strange, you know.

And then that's Barcelona, I went to Barcelona. What do you think of that? It's good. It's good, yeah. On that note, Sujata Gidla, thank you very much. Thanks for listening to conversations with Tyler. subscribe to the podcast in iTunes, Stitcher, or your favorite podcast app. And if you like this podcast, please consider rating it on iTunes and leaving a review. This helps other people find the

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