Conversations with Tyler - Thomas Piketty on the Politics of Equality

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

When it comes to the enormous reduction of income inequality during the 20th century, Thomas Piketty sees politics everywhere. In his new book, A Brief History of Equality, he argues the rising equality during the 19th and 20th centuries has its roots not in deterministic economic forces but in the movements to end aristocratic and colonial societies starting at the end of the 18th century. Drawing this line forward, Piketty also contends we must rectify past injustices before attempting to create new institutions. He joined Tyler to discuss just how egalitarian France actually is, the beginning of the end of aristocratic society, where he places himself within French intellectual history, why he's skeptical of data from before the late 18th century, how public education drives economic development, why Georgism isn't sufficient to address wealth inequality, the relationship between wealth and cultural capital, his proposal for a minimum inheritance, why he turned down the Legion of Honor, why France should give reparations to Haiti despite the logistical difficulties of doing so, his vision for European federalism, why more immigration won't be a panacea for inequality, his thoughts on Michel Houellebecq's Submission, and more. Read a full transcript enhanced with helpful links, or watch the full video. Recorded March 8th, 2022 Other ways to connect Follow us on Twitter and Instagram Follow Tyler on Twitter  Follow Thomas on Twitter Email us: [e-mail] Subscribe at our newsletter page to have the latest Conversations with Tyler news sent straight to your inbox. 

Before we get started with the conversation, just heads up that Piquete's audio quality is lower than usual. So if you're having trouble following the conversation, as always, we have a full transcript available at Conversations with Tyler.com. Additionally, for this one, we have a video, and that may be easier for some of you to follow. So that can be found by searching for conversations with Tyler on YouTube. Or just check the show notes for links. Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems. Learn more at arcadist.org.

And for more conversations, including videos, transcripts, and upcoming dates, visit Conversationswithtyler.com. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I'm here with Toma Piccatee, and he has a new book out, a brief history of equality, which in my opinion is the very best introduction to his overall views.

Toma, welcome. Thank you for your invitation. Let me start with some questions about France. Now, as you've pointed out yourself, France adopted a progressive income tax relatively laid in its history. Just how egalitarian as a country do you think France actually is? Well, as I stress in my new book, a brief history of equality, you know, there's been a long-run movement toward more equality in history and together with a movement toward more economic prosperity.

and I argue that the two movement, you know, really came together. And France, you know, is part of this movement. So, you know, each country has its own limitations, its own hypocrisies with equality and inequality. And, you know, France, you know, has lots of limitation, you know, lots of hypocrisy in the way to deal with, you know, very unequal access to, for instance, different funding in higher education or, you know, a lot of discrimination that is not well addressed. But by and large, you know, if I take a sort of big picture and look in the long run, you know, there's been a movement toward more equality of income, more equality of wealth, more equality in access to political power, more equality in access to education, in health, over the long run.

Now, this has not been a steady process. This is an evolution toward more equality that has taken place, you know, through political mobilization, social struggles. And the story I'm telling is really a story where the movement of more equality starts at the end of the 18th century. So, you know, typically in the case of France with the French Revolution, the abolition of aristocratic privileges. The slave revolt also in Saint-Dermag, which, you know, so these two events, you know, the abolition of aristocratic privileges and the slave revolt in Sand-Ong are sort of the beginning of the end of, you know, aristocratic societies. societies based on privileges and slave and colonial societies on the other hand. But you can see very well how these two movements, you know, these two evolution toward more

equality, you know, are not over. You know, they continued during the 19th century, 20th century with the end of slavery, the end of colonialism, the rise of social security, the rise of progressive taxation. But in France, just like in the US, you know, there is still a lot of discrimination today. you know, there is still a lot of gender inequality today. There is still a lot of political inequality, you know, in access to voice, access to participation, political power. There's still enormous concentration of wealth.

But, you know, to some extent, it has increased, especially in the US in recent decades, less so in France or in Europe. So, you know, in the long run, you know, there's a movement about more equality, but, you know, I'm not saying this to conclude that, you know, everything is great. And, you know, I'm saying this, you know, in order, also to suggest that, you know, this movement could and should continue. And I think it will continue, because in the end, this is a way to address some of the biggest challenges we have to address. Let me ask you just a very specific question. So it's a common American perception of France

and maybe Paris in particular that there are relatively few dimensions of status competition. One is supposed to dress a certain way or have particular habits of cultural consumption. Thus, along the dimension of cultural status, France and Paris are especially an egalitarian. Now, with someone from France and nearby Paris, what's your impression of that portrait of your own country? Is it misleading? Oh, you have to tell me that again. So what's exactly the comparison you're making between Paris and New York, for instance? If you compared Paris to New York or even Paris to Berlin, an impression that many outsiders have

is there are relatively few dimensions of status competition. So there's the civil service, there's a certain notion of doing well in business, the number of ways you could be expected to dress and be considered to be well dressed. That seems fairly circumscribed in Paris. But somewhere like Berlin, there seemed to be many more open dimensions of status competition or in New York City. Do you think in this particular way Parisian life is especially inegalitarian? You know, I have never thought about this, but maybe you're right. I have never heard of this before. So you're saying the diversity of dress, of dressing codes is less extensive in Paris than in Berlin.

But not just dress. You could look at cuisine. You could look at the status, say, of tech nerds in Berlin or New York relative to France. You know, maybe that's right. Maybe that's wrong. I don't know what's the metric for this. I'm not sure. You know, frankly, I never thought of that before.

Let me try another question. For someone trying to place you in French intellectual history, let's say they're not an economist. and they want to know which traditions from the French left are you closest to? Would it be utopian socialists, critical theorists, objective Marxists, 1968 crowd, where do you place yourself in your own country's history? Well, okay, this I can answer more precisely. Well, I would say first, none of the above. So I would put myself more, you know, in the tradition of the anal school.

You know, I don't know if this rings a bell for you or not. But, you know, the tradition of research in social and social. economic history that was sort of particularly active in France, I would say, you know, between the 1930s and 1980s with, you know, people like Brodell or Labrousse, you know, and these are people, you know, who have started working on the history of the distribution of wages. For instance, during the 18th century, you know, in the period going to the French Revolution, you know, is the French Revolution view to the fact that wages were lagging behind land rent, that was one of the big questions that these people were asking.

And, you know, in a way, what I've been doing is to try to pursue this tradition in social and economic history with also strong influence from, you know, Anglo-Saxon research in this area, you know, Kuznets, Atkinson, and, you know, there's a long tradition also of British and US historians and economists and social scientists, you know, trying to collect this kind of income and history. You know, that's what I've been doing. I don't feel very close to the sort of. philosophical or political thought tradition you are referring to because my work, you know,

has mostly consisted of, you know, trying to collect this historical data sources. And, you know, then, of course, to propose some interpretation of these data sources. But I feel, you know, I've always been sort of very close to my sources. Or, you know, this is what kept me busy, you know, 95% of my time for the past 25 years or so. When I read Broaddell, it strikes me there's something quite conservative about the argument. I don't mean politically conservative, but I mean literally conservative. The sense of long structures stretching through decades or even centuries, do you share that with him or do you think in some way you deviate that makes you more

politically radical? Okay, so you're right, you know, I don't know if it's making more politically radical, but you're perfectly right that, you know, one big difference between the work I've been doing and the work like people like Rodel or Labruth were doing is that I had to deal a lot with the 20th century, whereas these people were working a lot on previous centuries, you know, 18th century, 19th century, or even before, in the case of Rodel. And so working on 20th century data, and in particular, you know, the enormous reduction of income inequality during the 20th century, you know, led me to a different kind of perspective and a different kind of thinking and issue. So, to be very precise, you know, the political dimension is sort of much more important and in a

way unavoidable and impossible to escape when you study the 20th century. You know, when you study the 18th century or 19th century or maybe you can have this sort of Marxist or economic perspective, you know, stressing the sort of long-run evolution, the sort of deterministic economic forces. When you study the 20th century, the politics is everywhere because, you know, World War I, World War I, World War II, the Great Depression, the creation of social security systems. the development of progressive taxation, decolonization, end of apartheid. Politics is everywhere, if you want to understand the evolution of inequality.

I would say it's also, to some extent, the same for the 19th century. And, you know, at the end of the 18th century, I talk about the French Revolution and the slave revolt in Saint-Domain. So I think the history of equality or inequality cannot just be an economic history. It has to be a political history because if you want to account for what, you see, if you want to explain what you see, it's, you know, political processes, sometimes revolution, sometimes tax reform, sometimes political confrontation of all sorts play a major role. You know, I had to develop this perspective, and indeed this is a big difference with

the Annal School. You know, the Annal School in a way did not sort of disappear before reaching the 20th century. You know, they were not confronted to the same kind of issue that I was confronted just because I write later than them with data covering the more recent period. And so, you know, I had to develop a different perspective and a different kind of interpretation. Yes, stressing the role of politics and political institutions and fiscal institution, social institutions and the like. As you know, there's a competing longer rate tradition. If you look at the work of Greg Clark and Neil Cummins on surnames, they take data from England, from Sweden. There's one paper where they have about almost eight centuries of

data, I think, and social status is more heritable than height. A given status relationship has persistence for 15 or 20 generations. What do you think of that work? And do you think it's a perspective that contrast to yours and shows it's really very hard to redistribute what really matters in society? Look, this is very interesting. Every time there is a lot of historical data collection, you know, I am very interested, and so this is very interesting work. Now, that being said, I find the perspective a bit too conservative in a way, and maybe because it's very long run, but my period of study is the period, you know, ranging from the end of the 18th century until today. So this is, you know, 17, 80, 2020, if you want. So, and over these two centuries and a half,

what I see is a movement to have more equality, both in terms of political rights, but, also in terms of social and economic equality. And what I argue is that, you know, this process is very much related to political development, political revolution, you know, slave revolt, wars of independence, tax reform, changing balance of power between capital and labor, development of social security, development of public school system or public health system. And over this period, you know, this has led to a very strong movement. toward more equality in all these dimensions,

and also toward more economic prosperity. And I stress this. Now, before this period, I'm aware that, you know, there are people, Greta-Clark and others who stress the sort of the continuity across eight centuries of, you know, the sort of perpetuation of status in equality.

There are also, you know, historians like Scheidel, you know, going back to the Neolithic period or to ancient history, who stress a relatively pessimistic perspective in the sense that they say, okay, without, you know, major destruction or war, you know, you never have a reduction of inequality. I mean, all this work is very interesting, but the perspective I stress is a bit different.

You know, I think it's more optimistic in a way. You know, I think if you look at this, you know, shorter period, but which is still very long, you know, two centuries and a half, you know, 17, 80, 2020, you see this political movement or more equilateral. To be honest, I must admit, I must confess that I am always a bit skeptical about some of the data sources, you know, before the late 18th century. You know, partly because I know them less well, so, you know, I feel less confident with them. Partly because, you know, when I don't have a census, when I don't have a tax administration, you know, when I don't even know, you know, the population that is out there and how it is changing over time, you know, I find it very, very difficult to say, you know, did the concentration of wealth,

increase in Europe between 1,500 and 1750, let alone the question of did it increase between the end of the Roman Empire and 1500? You know, I don't know the answer to this question. I would suspect, you know, concentration of wealth inequality was always pretty large in this pre-18th century period. But from what I read, and I tried to read carefully most of what is written on this topic, I'm not sure, you know, we have the data sources to really really. answer these questions, unfortunately. This is why I try to focus on the more recent period, which is still very long. If I look at France in the early 1960s, as you know, the rate of finishing or even starting higher education is extremely low, but France basically is doing fine.

Do you view that as evidence for the view that it's really the continuity of cultural capital that matters and not so much policy? Oh, no, because there's been a huge educational expansion since then. You know, between 1950 and 1990 and until today, you know, educational expansion in France and throughout Europe and most of the world, you know, has been considerable. And so it is true. In the 1950s, France, to a large extent, Western Europe is lagging behind the U.S. in terms of educational achievement. And to me, you know, it's clear that, you know, the key reason why the U.S. has been an economic leader at the world level for, you know, most of the 20th century is because it was an educational. leader. And in the 1950s, as you know, very well, you know, you have 90% of a generation going to high school in the US, whereas in France or actually in Germany, it's 20 to 30% of a generation. And you need to wait until the 1980s or 90s to reach the same kind of, you know, 90% of a cohort

going to high school and to have a sort of universal access to it. You know, it was the same. In the 19th century, the US reached 90%. primary school attendance rate, you know, almost a century before Europe, or at least half a century or two-third of a century before Europe. And, you know, I think that was a key explanation where also economic productivity was so much higher in the United States. But, you know, I think here policy made a big difference. So, you know, especially after World War II, you know,

there was an enormous educational push not only in France and Germany, but, you know, so, of course, in Japan and then other countries in Asia also, follow this push, and this has completely transformed the economic geography and the geography of productivity and the huge advance that the US had, you know, in the middle of the 20th century, to a large extent, as disappeared today. And, you know, I think policies, institutions played a major role in this dynamics with, you know, specific political and social history in the different countries. And, you know, politics is also the product of the belief system. and the perceptions that, you know, families have about education, about, you know, the culture of

education. So, you know, all these different dimensions have to be studying together, obviously. As you know, Matt Rohnly and a number of other researchers have argued the relevant increase in wealth inequality really is centered in real estate and housing wealth. Do you agree? And if so, isn't it enough just to be a Georgist? Can't we just do the redistribution there? You know, if you look at the top of the wealth distribution, you know, I don't see a lot of real estate. I don't think Matt Rundle or anyone who is saying that the huge rise in billionaire wealth in the U.S. has anything to do with real estate. As far as I know, nobody has ever tried to put this theory on the table. So, I'm not saying real estate is not important. I think for middle class

assets and, you know, lower middle class and upper middle class assets, you know, for the middle of the distribution, real estate is of course very important. And the movement in real estate prices explain a lot of what's going on, both in terms of aggregate value, distribution. So I'm not saying it's not important. It is very important. And, you know, if you go back to a paper with Gabriel Zucmann, which was published now almost 10 years ago in the quarterly journal of economics in 2014, I called Capitalist Back wealth income ratio in the long run, 1700, 2010, you will see, you know, we have complete

decomposition about the role of real estate in aggregate wealth accumulation. and it's absolutely central for many countries over many period of time. We cannot have any disagreement on that because, you know, this is our data. This is what we did most 10 years ago. But, you know, that's not going to explain, for instance, you know, what happens at the top of the distribution because real estate is absolutely negligible when you look at the billionaire wealth. Here you need other stories. But for the distribution overall, it seems there's a lot of papers quite recent,

like Odron Bonnet, Georgia, the Roneley work, can all, Pfeffer and, Waitkus, they seem to think it's primarily about real estate, if not 100%, you know, predominantly real estate. So you don't agree with their estimates or you just think you're addressing a separate problem of billionaire inequality at the top? No, I think, again, it depends whether you look at aggregate wealth or you look at the distribution of wealth. If you look at aggregate wealth, then, you know, real estate is a really big part of the increase

in aggregate wealth to income ratio, you know, especially in Europe, less so in the business. In the US, the aggregate Western income ratio increase much less than in Europe. But for the aggregate Western income ratio, especially in Europe or Japan, real estate is the central explanation. There's no doubt about this. Now, if you look at the distribution, it's a very different story. In fact, the increase of the relative price of real estate asset relative to, say, stock market prices or financial asset is actually relative good overall for the middle class as compared to

the very top, you know, because the middle class owns mostly real estate and whereas the top owns mostly, you know, financial and business asset. So if the only force at play was the big increase in real estate price, in fact, wealth inequality should have declined, or at least top wealth share should have declined relative to the middle, which, you know, obviously this is not what we see. I mean, there is a recent disagreement about the magnitude of the increase in top wealth shares, but nobody is saying that top well shares have been declining in recent decades in any country. So by definition, the real estate argument is not going to explain what we see for the wealth distribution. So then, you know, it depends what segment of the distribution you

are interested. But if you're interested at the top share, I mean, if you're interested at the very top, you know, billionaire wealth, which, you know, after all, is interesting in its own sake and it's a non-negligible fraction of total wealth. You know, I think, again, nobody is saying that real estate is explaining this. And if you see a paper saying that, please send it to me. If I look at nominal income data for the U.S. or for that matter, Switzerland, those two countries measure as being wealthier than either France or Germany. Do you think citizens in U.S. and Switzerland are happier than French and Germans? You know, if you're interested in welfare, you need to look at productivity.

So, you know, that's the first thing. So you need to look at GDP per hours of work or income per hour of work. And you probably know very well, you know, if you look at OECD data or Bureau of labor statistics series in the U.S., which are almost similar, or Eurostat series, everywhere you go to, you know, you will see that GDP per hours of work is virtually the same in U.S., Germany, France, you know, it's a few percent different. I'm sure you know this series. Sure, of course.

Okay. So in terms of welfare, as economist, you know, what matters is productivity, not income per se, because, you know, if you have a higher income, just because you work longer hours, the effect on welfare is ambiguous. It depends how you value, you know, leisure versus work, et cetera. And, you know, presumably, you know, if European countries, you know, decided to have more vacation and a bigger reduction of working times than the US in the 20th century, by the way, this was not the case, you know, a century ago.

In the early 20th century, working hours were actually shorter in the US than Europe, you know, partly because productivity was higher, so you can afford working less. But anyway, today, in the past century, the decline in working hours, has been bigger in Germany and France. Presumably, this was a choice. I mean, this was a complicated political process, but nobody in Germany or France today is proposing to divide by two

the number of weeks of vacation and go to the US federal law in that respect. So in terms of welfare, I mean, my own view, as you can imagine, is that when you multiply your productivity by 10 over the past century, it actually makes sense, you know, to take some of the same,

of this increase in productivity, to have more vacation, to spend more time with your children and family, to spend more time traveling around the world. And, you know, for me, like for many Europeans, the idea of taking only two weeks in vacation over the summer when you are so rich looks like one of the most stupid things you can do in life. But, you know, different, you know, people can make different choice, of course, about this. But if the relationship between wealth and happiness is so diffuse, and I would have a would agree it may be. So I'm happier than some billionaires I know. Why worry so much about wealth inequality? Why not focus on inequality of well-being, which could be something quite different?

Ultimately, you know, what I care about is, you know, access to fundamental goods like education, health, you know, participation to the political life, participation to economic life. So ultimately, you know, this is what I care about. Income and wealth per se, you know, are just a job. You know, just mechanism and tools and ways, you know, to go in this direction. But in the end, what's really important for me, you know, is to have the highest possible opportunities and rights to access fundamental goods for everybody. This is all what matters.

But, you know, I see that in Paris, and I tend to think it's cultural capital. So rents are very high. There are people who are not eugeners. They live in Paris. They enjoy Paris immensely, as they should. They have incredible cultural capital, amenities, smart people they can talk to. They're partaking in those goods, yet there's very high wealth inequality in Paris. You teach in London, super high wealth inequality in London.

You can live there very well if you do it smartly. So again, why not focus on cultural capital for individuals rather than the wealth? First, I only teach in Paris. I was in London a long time ago as a student, but I'm not teaching there. Cultural capital is part of what I am interested. You know, when I look at the inequalities in education and access to education, this is about cultural capital. You know, when I look at, I try to understand the changing,

a structure of political cleavages and who votes for whom and which party and coalition, which is a topic in which I've been working quite a bit in recent years. Cultural inequality and different access to education and reversal of education cleavage over time is certainly very important. But maybe I don't think. get exactly your question. Maybe you should tell you again. If we want to make people better off, the world we live in, it has plenty of wealth, and we observe many people who are not rich, who have very high standards of living,

because they, in the broad sense, are well-educated, can enjoy amenities, can live in Paris or London on a limited income, take in what the city has to offer. And doesn't that suggest that wealth inequality shouldn't really be the focus? It should be inequality of cultural capital. Yeah, you know, I think all of these are important. Because, you know, if you only have a high cultural capital, living in Paris or London is going to be difficult, you know, given the rent level. So I think you want to care about both. And so, you know, I care a lot about making access to education more egalitarian. And, you know, as I told you, you know, France, you know, there's a lot of inequality and a lot of hypocrisy everywhere in terms of access to education in France.

I mean, in the U.S., you know, you have all this work by Russia, T.M. Manel says, you know, showing the relation between a parental income percentile and, you know, access to higher education, you know, the level of hypocrisy about, you know, the claims that are being made about equal opportunity and blah, blah, blah, you know, when you look at what you see in the data, you know, we are very far from there. But, you know, there's a lot of hypocrisy everywhere in terms of, you know, unequal access to education. In my country, in France, you know, we put three times more public resources in the sort of elite schools where more. socially advantaged students go to than in the sort of normal university schemes where more socially disadvantaged students tend to go to. So, you know, through public funding, sometimes you actually magnify initial inequalities rather than reduce that. So there's enormous hypocrisy everywhere. And to me, you know, making more effective equality in access to education

is absolutely central. That being said, I also want to redistribute wealth and inheritance and property, because, you know, if you only have high education, but you have no wealth at all, you know, it's more complicated. It's more complicated to buy a home for your family. You know, it's more complicated to start up a business. You know, in the long run, there's been a movement toward more equality of income, labor income, you know, through educational expansion, through more labor rights. But if you look at the distribution of wealth, you know, what's very striking is that, okay, the top 10% well share has declined in the long run. It used to be 80, 90% of the total in the 19th century in Europe.

Today, it's more 50, 60% in Europe. In the US, it would be more 60%, 70%. People can disagree about the details, but these are really details as compared to this order of magnitude. Now, this decline in the very top 10% well share has been mostly to the benefit of the next 40% which is already good. But if you look at the bottom 50% of the distribution, they have 2% of total wealth in the US.

They have 4% in Europe or in a country like France. It's a bit better than 2%. But basically they have nothing. So if you take in particular, you know, the bottom 50% children in a generation in France today or in the US today, they basically receive nothing at all in inheritance. And whereas the top 10% children

who receive 60, 70% of the total. So we are very far to say the list from equality of opportunity. This is the list you can say, which is interesting, because equality of opportunity is a theoretical concept that people very often say they are in favor of it. But if you try to move in a concrete manner toward more equality of opportunity, for instance, by redistributing inheritance,

you know, people get completely crazy and say, oh, how could you do that? So, you know, I'm making proposal about this in my recent books, you know, saying, okay, maybe, you know, everybody at age 25 could receive a minimum in return. Let's say, you know, it could be 60% of average wealth. So, you know, in France today, that would be 120,000 euros. You know, if the average wealth is 200,000 euros per adult. So everybody would receive 120,000 euros at age 25. So people who today would receive 120,000 euros per adult. So people who today would receive 120,000 euros per adult. So people who today would receive 120, euros at age 25, people who today receive 1 million will still receive 600,000 after the progressive taxation of inheritance and wealth that's paying for that. We would still be very, very far from equality of opportunity. And, you know, if you want my opinion, I think we should, we could and we should go beyond that.

But just doing that, you know, will increase, you know, the share of bottom 50% children in total ineritans, which today, you know, is between 2% of. in the US, 4% in France, you know, it would be 20 to 25%, which, you know, is still much less than 50%, because after all, there are the poorest 50% children. But I think it will make a big difference in terms of real opportunity to start a business, but also, you know, more generally, wealth has big impact on your bargaining power in life. So, you know, when you don't own anything, when you just own zero or when you only have debt, You know, you have to accept everything.

You have to accept any working condition, any wage, any job, because, you know, you need to pay for your bills. You need to pay for your rent. If you have a family, you need to do something. And so you have to accept anything. So when you have 100 or 200 or 300, so, you know, for people who have millions or billions, maybe 100 is like zero, you know, they don't make the difference.

But for people who are at zero, you know, having 100, 200, you know, put you in a position in terms of bargaining power vis-à-vis the rest of society, it's very different. And I think it's very complementary to cultural capital and human capital because, you know, 100, 200,000 euros, okay, that's not going to make you buy an apartment in Paris. That's not enough. But there are many other cities, which, you know,

for many people, are more enjoyable, where you can actually buy an apartment or house, you can start a business. It makes a real difference for bottom 50 people. people. If I visit every major country in Europe, what I observe is the highest living standard is arguably in Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg aside. Switzerland has one of the smallest governments and they attempt relatively little redistribution. What is your understanding of Switzerland? What if someone said, well, Europe should try to be more like Switzerland. They're

doing great. Why is that wrong? You know, Switzerland, it's a very small country. So, you know, it's about the size, actually, it's smaller than Ilde France, you know, which is a Paris region. If you were to make a separate country out of Ilde France, you know, GDP per capita I think would actually be higher than Switzerland. You know, of course, you can always take a wealthy region in a country and say, okay, you know, I don't want to share anything with the rest of the country. I'm going to kick my tax revenue for me. I'm going to be a tax haven based on bank secrecy. And, you know, that's going to make you 10 or 20 percent richer. But it's been a long time since Switzerland relied on bank secrecy, right? Following 9-11, that Swiss advantage largely went away.

Oh, that's wrong. You're wrong on this. It's the U.S. that's the secrecy haven. No, no, I can tell you, you know, the banking sector and the status as tax haven, you know, still brings an additional income of, you know, at least 10 or 20 percent to Switzerland. But I agree with you, you know, Switzerland would still be rich, you know, even without this. But there would be a bit poorer, and they would certainly not be richer than, you know, If you compare to, say, the Paris region in GDP per capita, you know, the London region, you know, if you take the wealthiest region. So you have to compare, you know, it's important to compare, you know,

countries of comparable size, regions of comparable size. You mentioned Norway. You know, again, Norway without the oil would be more comparable to Sweden or Denmark in terms of GDP per capita. And now the oil is making them richer, but, you know, I think this oil should actually remain in the ground. You know, I don't know if you've seen this. incredible TV series Occupy, which today is what's happening in Ukraine. This is a series where Russian invades Norway in order to restart the oil production

in order to make the European Commission happy. And the European Commission looks as ugly as it can possibly look, which unfortunately is sometimes an accurate description, where oil production is so important that you're ready, in effect, to tolerate things that, in fact, you should not tolerate. But anyway, this was just a side note. about Norway, but anyway, all, you know, it's playing an important role. But Switzerland is a real country with a diversified economy.

Yeah, sure. Very little of it is poor. The Paris region is a real region. Yeah, sure. But that's a clustering effect within France, like France is much poorer than Switzerland. Yeah, but this is not comparable in size. You know, I don't think it makes sense. You know, again, if you want to compare a region of about 5, 10 million inhabitants, you know,

which is the size of Switzerland, we will find many other regions with a comparable GDP their capital all across Europe. You know, there are many good things in Switzerland, by the way. You know, I think, you know, the local democratic system, you know, has lots of good aspects to it, you know, the education system. You know, I think there's a lot to learn from each of this experiment. You know, in the U.S., you know, has a much smaller government, Sweden or Denmark or France. But, you know, I think there's a lot to learn historically from the U.S. in terms of equality.

And I think the enormous educational advance that was there in the U.S., you know, in the 19th century, in the middle of the 20th century is key to understand many of the issues I refer to. Now, you know, the case of Norway shows that, you know, you can also have a very generous welfare state and, you know, that certainly does not prevent you from being prosperous. Look, at the level of Europe, you know, we have 27 countries in the European Union. If you look in terms of tax-to-GDP ratio, the countries with the lowest tax-to-GDP ratio are Bulgaria and Romania. The countries with the highest tax to GDP ratio are Denmark and Sweden.

So, you know, if it was enough in order to become rich to have a small government, you know, Bulgaria and Romania will be richer than Denmark and Sweden. So, you know, we know that things are more complicated. And it depends what you do with your tax revenue. So, you know, if you use it well, then, you know, it's obvious from this evidence that this is complementary with high prosperity. Now, you've been awarded a Legion of Honor, but you turn that down, if I understand correctly, on the grounds that you don't trust or don't want government handing out status.

If you do not entirely trust governments to hand out status, why trust them so much to redistribute all this wealth? Like, what's the political economy constraint on that wealth redistribution process where you say, look, this isn't going to go the way I want it to go? No, this is because, you know, I believe in anonymous rules. It's not a belief, you know, it's not a religious belief or religious face. you know, I study history. I see that, you know, government under certain conditions have been able to develop a public education system, public health system, tax administration, you know, following anonymous rules which have been working pretty well and which we can improve, we should improve. Whereas, you know, deciding on an individual basis, you know, who is honorable,

who is not honorable, you know, it's a very different kind of business. And I think indeed that, you know, government are not elected to do these kind of things. And how do you keep the anonymous rules anonymous, right? There's slippage. It's not something you can easily write into a constitution. Yes, but again, if I look at, you know, the history of state construction and welfare state development in Sweden or France or Germany, you know, I don't see what episode you have in mind, exactly.

Well, in the United States, France, for that matter, most countries, there's plenty of corruption. There are people, companies that get privileges due. to tariff, due to policy. Oh, yeah, sure, sure, yeah. And it doesn't stay anonymous. Why trust the government so much to redistribute wealth? The corruption you have in mind, is it in the government of Sweden or France or Germany, or is it in the private companies?

I think it's both. It's maybe higher in France and America than in Sweden. It's relatively high in Germany, actually. You have Schroeder. He's put on the board of Gazprom. You can't say Germany isn't corrupt, right? Well, but this is when he joined the private sector. It was not when he was in government.

Well, but clearly they were buying the services of people in German government, right? Actually, the example you mentioned is very important because it's exactly the example where, in fact, you know, when you are in government, I don't think any of these people, when they were in government, took money. The problem is if you let them go in the private sector and join the completely insane level of remuneration that you observe in the private sector, this is the problem. But I don't think, you know, in any of this country, you know, give me an example of a political leader who became billionaire by taking money when he was in office. I think they sell their votes much more cheaply than that. I mean, most of U.S. Congress is quite happy to pass special interest favoring legislation. They don't get a billion dollars for their vote. Maybe that's a kind of economic puzzle.

The perversity and the bad incentives, you know, come from the private sectors in all this example. not the public sector where you have salary scale, which, you know, in some cases could be reduced further, but which are in general much more reasonable than in the private sector, as far as I can see. You've argued France should pay reparations to Haiti. As I understand it, Haiti does not now really have a well-functioning government. Should France still pay? Should France wait? What's your view?

Yeah, I think France should pay. So, you know, let me just summarize, remind the story very quickly. You know, this is an example. So when Haiti came independent and when the French state recognized finally in 1825 the independence of IT, you know, the French state said, okay, we are going to recognize your independence, only if you pay us a huge amount of money, which was the equivalent of 300% of GDP of Haiti of 1825, in order to compensate, you know, the French slave owners for their loss of property. of course, was impossible to repay in one year or in a few years.

So French bankers came, refinance the debt, and in the end, the debt was repaid until the 1950s. You know, you have payment to the Bank of France until 1957. And so there was many renegotiations. The US was involved in the process at some point. Some of the debt was resolved by the French bankers to a consortium of US bankers. But anyway, to make a long story short, you know, IET effectively repaid between 1825 and 1957, so you know, almost a century and a half,

an enormous public debt in order, in effect, to compensate the French slave owners on the loss of the problem. I think it is impossible to say today, okay, this is too old, we don't care, because, you know, there are reparations that are being made today for expropriation and various injustices that took place during World War II or sometimes even during World War I. So if you say for Haiti, this is too late, and for this other reparation or expropriation during World War II, we can still do reparation, I think you have a problem because then it makes it very difficult, you know, to develop a language of neutrality, of justice upon which we can

build, you know, future institutional development. I wouldn't say it's too late, but won't the money just go into private bank accounts and it will increase wealth inequality in precisely the way you object to? Oh, that's certainly not what I am proposing. So, you know, what I am proposing is, you know, of course, that, you know, whenever there is, you know, transfer for reparation or, you know, for development aid or whatever you want, you know, we need to have a very strict monitoring of individuals who might, you know, get rich or get the money about this.

And, you know, whether they are in the public sector, in the private sector, wherever they are, you know, we should be very strict about that, that's for sure. But isn't that reimposing a kind of colonialism on Haitian government? If the French are going to monitor where all the money flows within Haitian government, that would require establishing quite a bit of sovereignty over Haiti. I think Haiti should be part of that. You know, I think there are lots of people in Haiti, you know, who would like to monitor how this money is being used.

Look, you know, I'm not saying this is simple, but, you know, reparations are never simple. I can tell you, you know, in my country, you had to wait until 1999, 2000, so, you know, almost only 20 years ago, for an official commission to look seriously at post-World War II reparation and, you know, Jewish expropriation during World War II. So, you know, this process take time. If you look in the US, remember, you know, you have to wait until 1988 to see a law adopted by U.S. Congress to have reparation for the Japanese-American, which has. you know, we're in terms during World War II.

And during many decades, you know, people were saying, oh, that's impossible, that's too complicated, where are we going to draw the line, where are we going to stop, how can you decide the amount? And look, I understand these are complicated decisions to be made. Now, is this a reason to, you know, forget about it and say, okay, we don't care anymore? I don't think so. You know, I think this would be the worst answer. So I fully recognize, you know, the complexity of the task. You know, I'm certainly not trying to say this is an easy.

etc. But I reiterate my claim that if you abandon any attempt for justice, then you are in a very difficult situation to prepare the future. Because then, you know, people will tell you, okay, you know, you care about, you know, this kind of expropriation and injustices, but you don't care about this other kind. So you have to try to develop some universal approach to justice in terms of objective criteria, including the distribution of income, the distribution of wealth, access to education. I don't know any other approach. I know you're very much a European Federalist, and in at least one interview, you argued that the major countries in the current European Union should in a sense secede and set up their own arrangements, part of which would

redistribute more wealth. Would the net actual effect of that not be to greatly weaken the European Union we have now? You would have multiple tiers. How is that going to work? Well, first of all, so I have been involved in writing this manifesto for the democratization of Europe. And so we have made, you know, with a very large group of scholars from all over Europe, you know, lawyers, political scientists, economists. We have been proposing concrete changes in the treaties that organize the European Union. So, you know, we are making very concrete proposal on improving the working of the European Union. And indeed, you know, I am a European federalist. I am a European, what I call social federalist in the sense that, you know, I want federalism to be able to deliver more social justice, to deliver more popular support to Europe, which, you know, today is not exactly the case.

If you look at the Brexit vote, lower income group voted to exit, upper income groups and upper education group voted to stay. So, you know, I think there's something wrong going on. So I think we need a different kind of Europe which brings more social justice, fiscal justice. And so I think one of the solution, certainly not the only one, you know, is to be able to make a majority rule decision making over taxation. You know, I think, you know, the problem today is that if Luxembourg wants to put their veto on, you know, taxation of multinationals or taxation of billionaires in Europe, then you cannot do anything together. In spite of the fact that, you know, Luxembourg, with 300,000 inhabitants, is, you know, less than 0.1% of the population of the Europe. European Union, which is 500 million. So, you know, it's even less than the nobility in France in 1789,

where the nobility was about 1% of the population and they had veto power about taxation. So I'm saying, you know, this cannot continue for very long. So in the proposal we've been making, and what I want to say regarding your question is that it's not open only to large countries, you know, it's also open to every country in the European Union or actually even, you know, outside the European Union, which may want to joint at some point. So, you know, I'm just saying, you know, if you take Germany, France, Italy, Spain, you know, these four countries make almost 80% of the population and GDP of the Eurozone. So, you know, if these four countries are ready to go, you know, I think they should go.

They should try to convince as many other countries as possible. But, you know, I think the current arrangement where officially we have the unanimity rule for all fiscal and budgetary matters. You know, remember, you know, what happened last year with the post-COVID recovery plan. In effect, France and Germany put so much pressure on the Netherlands, Sweden, etc., that in the end, there was unanimity to have common borrowing and a recovery plan. But in a way, this was a sort of fake unanimity, which, you know, there's a risk that in the end you make everybody unhappy. Because people who are forced to agree, in effect, what happened is that France and Germany told Netherlands and Sweden, okay, if you don't want to come in, we're going to have a separate

arrangement between us and we will do it without you. So they said, okay, we will do it with you. But I don't think this is the right way to organize political decision. I think we should have a majority rule decision making and not based on country against country. That's why, you know, the proposal we are making in the manifesto for the democratic direction of Europe is to have a European Assembly where members of national parliament will. come and be in front of each other, they would be there in proportion to the population

of each country and in proportion to the size of each political group in each country. You know, it's not just country against country, because, you know, when you have the head of state of Germany, the head of state of France, the head of state of Sweden, or the Minister of Finance, of Germany, France and Sweden, when you have only one individual to represent the interest of 80 million Germans or 65 million French, it's a sort of machinery to make sort of national interest against national interest, whereas in fact, you know, within Germany or within France or within the Netherlands, people disagree. Obviously, they have different political leaning. And I think the current European Parliament is not enough because in the

end, it's really the national parliament, the German Bundestag, the French Assembly National, who has the political legitimacy to make their taxpayer pay more or less tax and to take budgetary decision. So today we are in this strange situation where each national parliament has in effect a veto power on all budgetary and fiscal decision. And indeed, I think one way to go beyond that is to actually put these national parliament members together, you know, maybe one week per month, you know, in the European Assembly to vote over budgetary decision. Now, what will come out of this, I don't know, but, you know, I trust democracy. I think it could bring more social justice and fiscal justice.

If I just take one example, which is corporate taxation, remember that the US until Trump had a federal corporate tax rate of, you know, 35% and, you know, in addition, you're at the state corporate tax rate, whereas in Europe, corporate tax competition had led corporate tax rate to go toward 2010, etc., which is very paradoxical in a way the fact that Europe has led the movement toward more tax competition and corporate taxation because Europe has a bigger welfare state to pay for us than the U.S. And I think this shows that political institutions, so the fact that you have federal corporate

tax and income tax in the U.S. but not in Europe, make a difference. So anyway, you know, we could talk a lot more about this, but that's basically my view. If we really want to limit wealth inequality, why shouldn't the European Union let in as immigrants, many, many more non-Europeans? Won't that just limit wealth inequality almost overnight? I mean, is that a good idea? I don't think you endorse it in your book, but that seems to me by far the easiest and most direct way

to limit wealth inequality. Sorry, we should do what? Take in more non-European immigrants on a very large scale. Why not do that? You mean, it will reduce wealth inequality at the world level? Sure. There's poor people all over the world, including in former French colonies,

and take many more into the EU. Yeah. You know, look, I am in civil. of more migration and more open borders. And roughly speaking, I am in favor of more control of capital and capital flows and less control of labor flows. And whereas today we sort of do the opposite, we have completely free capital flows and no fiscal coordination about corporate taxation or capital taxation.

And we have strong restriction of labor flows. But I think it's important to address the two issues together. Because if you only open labor flows without changing the regulation, of capital and wealth taxation, then, okay, you're going to reduce inequality in the sense that many people from the south might benefit, but you're going to increase inequality within the population that today live in the north. And, you know, the big winners may be, you know, top people in the north, also, you know, top people in the south, but, you know, bottom people in the north will lose.

So I think, you know, if you want a fair solution, you need to do exactly what you say, but together with redistribution of wealth and income, and not only in the north, but also in the south. So, you know, I think that's perfectly complementary with what I am saying. Last question. What do you think of Michel Hulebeck and his book's submission? This is too nihilistic for me.

I mean, he has some talent. You know, he makes me think a lot to Celine. You know, Celine, you know, you know, if you know, Celine is a novelist of, you know, the interwar period in France who wrote this incredible novel, Voyage O'Bud La Nui, which is an incredible novel, basically, when he tells us his experience during World War I, and then after World War I, he goes to Africa,

then he goes to Detroit. Basically, he's completely desperate about World War I. Of course, he's desperate about colonialism, is desperate about capitalism in Detroit. He's completely nihistic, but he has a lot of talent. Well, I think well back, he's about the same. So he has a lot of talent,

but in terms of political views, to me, It's just very neelistic. I mean, I had the opportunity to have debate with him and public discussion with him. It's too nihistic for me. I believe we can make the world better. I believe the problem is with the institution, not with people. You know, I think human beings, you know, are basically good, so to speak. And just the institutions are not always at the level of the human beings.

Well, but, you know, partly because it's difficult, of course, to set up the right institution. But we can learn from history. And, you know, I'm trying with my work, you know, to contribute. to this collective process of learning from history and how to build better institutions to have a better world. Toma, thank you very much. Again, everyone, the new book is a brief history of equality. Thanks a lot, Tyler.

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