Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 103 How To Make Friends ft. Jennie Allen

Episode Date: February 16, 2022

This week on Couple Things, we sit down with Jennie and Zac Allen! .We talk about how to gain deeper relationships with your friends and family, the ebbs and flows of marriage, and working through conflict. We also discuss her upcoming book 'Find Your People,' which focuses on how to build a meaningful community around you. Check out all of her social media and book below! Instagram: @jennieallen @ifgathering Facebook: facebook.com/jenniesallen facebook.com/IFgathering  Book link: https://www.jennieallen.com/find-your-people We are sponsored by these companies that we love. Check them out below:  Better Help ▶ Visit betterhelp.com/EASTFAM and join the over 1,000,000people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional• Our Couple things listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/EASTFAM. HOP WTR ▶ For a limited time,, we have a special offer just for our listeners… Get 20% off your first purchase! Plus, get Free Shipping when you order 24 cans or more. To get this offer, go to hopwtr.com and use our promo code EASTFAM to get 20% off PLUS free shipping. Athletic Greens ▶ Athletic Greens Is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/eastfam. If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more.  Follow us on Instagram to keep the conversation going at https://www.instagram.com/couplethings... And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail]. Subscribe for more! http://bit.ly/3rnOdNo Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One and sip and two and sip and three and sip. Oh, hey, I'm just sipping Tim's all-new protein ice latte. Starting at 17 grams per medium latte, Tim's new protein lattes, protein without all the work at participating restaurants in Canada. You're not close friends with anyone until you've gone through a conflict. Because you will eventually have a conflict and then you know that's a close friend. When you work it out and you deal with it together and you forgive each other, and then you're okay again.

That is a good friend because you know that's not going to end, that you can go through in weather conflict. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things with Sean and Andrew. The podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. Today was an awesome interview. We have Jenny and Zach Allen.

That's right. Our audience was really excited about this. They used the word icon when describing. Jenny and Zach. So Jenny is a New York Times bestselling author. She is coming out with a book called Find Your People on February 22nd. You might have heard of her other books like get out of your head, made for this, nothing to prove, restless, anything, and stuck.

She has a lot of books. Between her and her husband, they had so much advice on building communities, gaining deeper relationships with your friends, your family, and the community around you, and how to get through things like drama and, and gossip and superficial relationships that we all struggle with. Which is really important, you know, because you have to make it through conflict to have impactful relationships. So her husband, Zach, was a pastor, and now he does other things like being the CEO of

a company called Sport Ice, which we tease a little bit. He's also a rancher. Yeah. They have some pretty cool stories. They do. And we really enjoy talking with Jenny and Zach. So if you want to find out more about them and what they're up to, we will link information down below that you can check out, as well as the link to her book called

Find Your People. Without further ado, we bring you Ginny and Zach Allen. All right, Jenny and Zach Allen. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's a pleasure to meet you. It's great to meet you guys. Jenny, it's been how many months? It's almost been a year. I mean, it was before your baby. Yeah. It was like a month before he was born. Yeah. Which is crazy. that we were on that I was on your podcast yes which was incredible it's so great you know you know you know it was it was leading up to to to the Olympics I think yes yeah yeah I it's honestly I'm not going to lie it's honestly kind of a blur because I was nine months pregnant I gave

birth on the day of the opening ceremonies and I I cannot believe you just should still yeah that's hysterical that you gave birth on the day of everything ceremony Of course. Yes. It only makes sense pretty much. Yes. We were supposed to actually be there. I was actually supposed to commentate some of it.

And then I remember we got pregnant a lot sooner than we expected. And I remember going to OB the first day. And she's like, your due date is this. And I was like, why does that sound familiar? I was like, oh, that's opening ceremonies. Cool. So for those listening who don't know what we're talking about, Jenny interviewed Sean on the podcast called Made for This. How many episodes have you done, Jenny, on your show?

You know what? I appreciate that you took a guess at like 200-ish. That's probably generous. I honestly don't know. I have not kept up with it because we don't number them. So I need to go back to look. But I've been doing it. I've been doing it about two years. Yeah. And Jenny, have you interviewed Zach yet? Oh, he is our most popular guest, y'all. My husband is our most. In fact, we did a short little series together. And everybody now is like, bring Zach back, bring him back. Yeah, I'm the mystery guy. Well, as we were talking before the show, Zach, you would describe yourself as the guy who does ranches, popsicles, and children's books. Cells children's books. Yeah. Please explain. Which, yeah, which makes it really easy to understand. Basically, it means that I'm not really good at anything, but I have my hands in a lot of things. And so I'm kind of a serial starter. And so my best value to organization a company is just on on the front side and when it actually starts going they need

people that are good at things and that's when i'm out so i just kind of i just kind of move on to the next thing and so yeah i find myself in the midst of the start of companies and i love it that's that's that's where my energy and my value is i feel like you and i would get along because i'm the same way i'm a serial starter but i once like you said once you need someone who's good at it i'm like You're good. You just do it. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. 2020 for us, we've called it the year of hires because a lot of these ideas have started taking a little bit of fruition. And it's just not healthy for us in marriage and family to try to have our hands in all of them. I think between the two of us, we have, I have three, maybe eight companies, different companies that were involved in it. So y'all get it. It's not. This sounds very. familiar. I feel like majority of our quest or of our like arguments and conversations are around

who can we bring on to help offload all of these like passion projects we're starting. Yeah. Here's what the the word that I heard when I shared that we were going to interview Jenny and Zach Allen was oh my gosh they're icons. Yes. So it is pretty amazing to look at what you guys have built um and what you guys are doing how you're impacting lives it's pretty amazing uh and jenny you're joining us today because you have a new book yeah coming out called finder people i would love to hear about this yes yes so i saw an issue prior to covid this is years ago i saw that loneliness was on the rise i was hearing it from everybody we serve it was just it was everywhere and i felt like okay there's this is a big problem and and also i traveled to

Rwanda where our son is from and Uganda and Haiti and then Europe we would go to Italy and we would see a whole different way that people lived and it was more of like a village type existence where there would be 150 people in a small little town in Italy and they all use the same little grocer and we stayed in a little Airbnb there and we walked to the grocer and it was middle of nowhere Italy not the touristy towns you know and they they were like who are you what are you doing here and they all knew each other. They all, they all knew each other. And everybody in the grocery, little grocer was talking and catching up. And I just, I've come home from all of these trips and felt like, what are we missing here that causes us to live so independent and

isolated and not connected? And so it was in a, you know, I always like to write books because it's so much work and it takes so long about things that make me curious. And so I was just genuinely curious about the way people live and why here it feels like we're so isolated and disconnected. And so that was the big experiment. And I was super encouraged because what I learned from those villages is that we can recreate a lot of those things, even in a big city. My husband and I were in Dallas. And so it's not at all like that little town in Italy. But I do think we can have some of those traits and characteristics in our lives here as well. You have said before in interviews that the most common question you get is how do I make friends? Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

Kind of, that is, and it's crazy. But then a couple of questions to that. One, why do you think that is? Why do you think people are so lonely and are so, I don't know, they hold themselves back from reaching out for community? I feel like it's so hard for an individual to go on a date, let alone go meet a friend. And is that just our culture and our society? Or is that, that everybody. Yeah, I would say it's definitely our culture because most people depend on each other, right? So part of it is our wealth. Part of it is just, and by wealth, I just mean almost everybody in America makes a living wage. You go to a little village in Rwanda, they're farming together, they're going to get water together. Like there's just some natural togetherness that

comes when you don't have doors, right? They all have, they're in huts where they don't have even a door that locks. So the idea that we have what we need. We Amazon it if we don't, and we don't ever borrow an egg. You know, we go to Home Depot and buy the ladder instead of borrow it from a neighbor. Most cultures are dependent on each other. And so the number one thing I hear from people is I'm too busy or I've been so hurt or I've tried over and over again and it hasn't worked. There's so many reasons that it's difficult here, but it's real and we've got to overcome

it. But I've found that people, you know, if you know, if you know, you're not the only lonely one. If you know that there's other people that are lonely, it makes you braver to ask people to get together. And you have to expect rejection. You have to expect it on the first, second, third try that maybe it's not going to click for you or you just, you know, they're too busy or maybe they already have their group of friends. But eventually you're going to get a yes. And I always say, would it be worth it to you if I told you after five attempts that were difficult and you felt a little bit rejected, you have

had a friend for life, would you do it? And everybody says yes. You know, so you have to assume that at some point you're going to find people that you enjoy being with. And it's just work. That's the bottom line. It's work. And we have to choose to do it. But here's the thing. It's so much fun. And in, you know, we just moved to Dallas about five years ago and had to start over. And it was so overwhelming. So we really get that, that it is overwhelming and daunting. But we feel like we have so many friends now that we will count friends till we die if we stay here like they are they are that kind of level of friend but it has taken a lot of initiation and I think you know we're we're still in the middle of a pandemic it's very hard there's a lot of barriers to to cause this to happen

Zach would you describe yourself as an introvert or extrovert I'm actually an introvert yeah I fuel up by being alone but it confuses people a lot of times he's really outgoing and the last one to leave if we're in a public setting last one to leave party last one to leave church like he's just all in with people when he's with them but i do think yeah he does he does pick i will go to a movie theater and watch a movie by myself and be just fine yeah if that says anything i i couldn't what about you guys i go ahead no no no no i'm i'm introverted i'm introverted that was actually a huge um kind of like tension spot for us when we started dating got got married was I am so introverted

that going to like group settings I would just like ball up and I'd like I don't know how to talk to people this is very awkward and very shy and he is polar opposite and he's like babe just talk to someone just say hi

like I don't know how yeah yeah it has caused like there's there's kind of like a misunderstanding of like why don't why aren't you excited to go hang out with this big group of people we've never met before I love that I love getting to meet new people but I'm curious so for

speaking to people who do have, I don't know, like social anxiety or they don't feel confident meeting new people, what are the lessons that you could share with them? Yeah. So the great news about this is it's not adding something to your life. It's actually looking for the people that are already in your life. Likely you have neighbors, you have coworkers, you have people that you're seeing at your kids soccer games. Like you probably have people in your life that you maybe haven't noticed or you haven't invested in. And so I don't think it's something that should come as a huge add-on or addition to what you're already doing. I think you should look in the fabric of where you live and how you're already living, because those are actually going to be the people that

you most easily run into and see the most often. And so what I saw from village life is that proximity mattered, vulnerability and transparency mattered, that accountability, that most villages are set up with a lot of accountability built into them, meaning, for instance, when we move near family. All of a sudden, my kids were not just accountable to us, but their grandparents were going to come to the game that they can't, they can't even be on anymore because they miss practice. And now they have to call their grandparents and say, hey, I miss practice. And there's just built in accountability when you're doing life with people that are for people, especially raising kids, when it says it takes a village, this is what it means is they, they're okay disappointing

us, but they really didn't want to disappoint their grandparents. So there was something really cool about moving closer to family and seeing that accountability come and then you see that they're on mission together and mission for all of us can look like i mean they're having to gather and hunt and do all these things but mission for all of us could be soccer games with our kids right like it's just doing things together and then the last thing is just consistency that that you don't quit when it gets hard because we all know that that is a huge temptation in our world and and so for the person that's got social anxiety i would just say you're probably around people anyway and you probably don't need to go to a party to meet people you probably could just meet them for coffee someone from

your your kids you know school or or someone if you're single from your apartment complex like how can you just invest in one person that's already around you rather than feeling like i need to really put myself out there or get on bumble or do something crazy to meet people you really can i think find it in the fabric of your lives man the not quitting part really hit me we've had several I feel like you're out of college and you're an adult, especially when you have kids, the random social interactions, like just the volume of those decreases, I feel like. So like, you know, we, the most recent event that we've been to where we were around a group of people we'd never met was like our daughter started school.

And so like we're meeting all these new parents, right? But yeah. So we've had friends where we haven't been able to invest as much time because, you know, they moved 30 minutes away, 40 minutes away. And so we interact. but there's like conflict and there's been a couple times where like gosh we just should we just like walk away from this because this is frustrating and it's annoying and they hurt my feelings but you know if the goal is to actually have deep connection then pushing through that conflict

and like actually understanding each other in a deeper way I feel like it's so powerful so that's that's my random tangent of thought today's show is brought to you by better help We all know these past few years have been extremely hard for so many people. And being isolated doesn't help when you need someone to talk to. Speaking of that, I wanted to give a shout out to one brand that we've loved working with, and that's BetterHelp. BetterHelp actually helps to assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. Yes, they are awesome.

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can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Presale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Turns and conditions apply. more at mx.ca slash y annex jenny and zach how long have you been married this may we will have we will celebrate how many jenny 25 years oh my gosh no way that's awesome wait that's like that's like a

big one we should take a trip we should do you should do something what he's already got it planned I probably should get on that he just won't tell me what it is I know he planned it I'm nervous for you Zach have you back are you a planner like that he loves plans Oh my gosh. He's a he's like a concierge. So I am a closet concierge. If you have a trip that you want to take. Yeah. Um, I've probably thought of it and kind of even if I haven't taken it. I planned it in my head. And so just, Andrew, call me up. I'm going to get your cell phone number. I'm the opposite. He doesn't play. He doesn't plan. But part of this is who I'm married. Um, Jenny love surprises. She grew up with the dad that loves surprising her. And, And also, she's in Enneagram 7. And so she'll do hard work, but she wants to know the payoff. Like she wants to know that on the backside of something, there's a reward. There's a reward coming.

Babe, this is me. That's just, that's 25 years of marriage. I'm still, we're still working these out, but I'm the same way. I will work as hard as anyone, but I've got to know there's like a reward on the other side. Yeah. How long have y'all been married? It'll be six years. In April.

In April. Okay, well, those were our least favorite. Y'all seem perfectly happy and awesome. But it gets better, y'all. It gets so much better. Year six was your least favorite. Is that what you're saying? Yes, we were in fact of marriage counseling.

Yeah, yeah. Years five through seven were the hardest. Yeah. Two kiddos, two toddlers at home. Yeah. We just, it was rough. I married a fighter. I was about keeping my composure.

Oh, y'all. I would try to have a fight. We didn't know how to conflict at all. I would try to have a fight with him, which I needed to do. to have because I had things to say and he would turn over and go to sleep like it was terrible we just we got counseling and it changed everything because it was better for me to say nothing than to say the wrong thing so i would just turn over and go to sleep thinking it'll just be better

in the morning and it is no it is dude are you freaking until until she's like no no i was just storing it up i was all exactly i feel like i'm having a conversation with our future selves This is so weird. I will say we are doing great. We love each other. We love our marriage, everything. But kids throws a whole different aspect into it. And people don't prepare you for that.

People prepare you for the hardship of children, but not for the hardship of marriage with children. And young children. I think those are the hardest years on a marriage because you're so tired. You're just in survival. Everything is survival. And I always get sad when I see people divorcing with young kids because I'm like, no, no, no. like just hang on it gets better you're eventually going to get to leave him at home and not get a babysitter

like things really do like turn a corner when they're all independent and you can like look at each other again and be in love again and you're like oh yeah I remember why I married you but yeah nobody's their best self and toddler year yeah so we have a two year old and a six month old so we're in the thick of it yeah yeah this actually brings me to a question back to the theme of your book like in marriage I feel like my perspective has shifted from hey like let me get married so you know i could marry my best friend and spend a lot of time with them to some extent or like you have a friendship because oh this is fun and we're always doing an adventure or i like you know whatever thing we do together to no like the the purpose is to love another person like to know sean and to be known and i i feel like

that helps in times of conflict, like, see the way through because it's not about, oh, I'm not having fun anymore or this is difficult. It's like, no, I view now these difficult times with kids as the next, you know, boss that we have to be in the video game of marriage to, like, you know, understand what comes next. But I'm curious how you view relationships or if I'm way off, how do you guys approach that? I mean, here's the thing is we are both, hardwired going to go change the world people like that's who we are and so i remember when our kids were young um somebody said to us in fact we were pregnant with our first somebody said there's two ways to view your family you can put your children in the center of your circle or you can

add them to your circle and put the world in the center and what that means is not leaving your kids all the time or anything like that it just means they go with you like you like you still have life and you still have visions and dreams, but you do that together as a family. And I think we've raised a team. I mean, we really feel like a team. Our kids are very committed to each other and very committed to to make a difference in the world in all different ways. Each of them is wired as an entrepreneur, weirdly. And we have our daughter who, you know, is doing photography and wants to do humanitarian photography. And we have our son who started a fly fishing camp when he was 14. And now he's about to graduate college and he's launching that company as an outdoor company called

How to Outdoors, everybody. He'll be so proud I mentioned that. And he's just figuring it out, like how to help the next generation get outdoors. That's his vision and dream. And so you've got each of them with these different little dreams that they have. But I think it came from all of us doing that together. And they watched, you know, my husband was a pastor for a long time. And he was starting a church.

And so we just set up chairs every week. Well, they did it with us, you know. And I think there's something about just doing life together, whatever it is, whatever passion you have, rather than feeling like, oh, our whole lives have to revolve around our kids, it's so much more fun to go, you know what? Our lives revolve around helping people and serving people, y'all come with us as we do that. And then I think it builds a culture and a family that's really, really close. And I think we can now say with our oldest being 22 and 25 years into marriage, like,

what about this experiment? Like has it worked? Yeah. Yeah, it worked. They're thriving. They don't resent not being the center of our family. In fact, in fact, they're so thankful and it's modeled to them of going, they want to also raise their kids in that same way, that we all come alongside.

We're a team on a mission together. So then if somebody's headed out somewhere to do something, whether it's play a sport or whatever, we're all like cheering them on. There's this sense of we send out from our family. family that is healthy and awesome. And then they bring in, right? Like, they bring in, and it sounds like I'm bragging, but I think it's good for people to hear that there's healthy, good families out there. I think for so long, I thought, gosh, all families are broken and all. And I'm not saying we don't have our big, bad problems in our family, but we

own those and we talk about them. And there's constant apologies in our house. And I just think there's, it's fun. And the reward that's coming, you can't see this when you have babies. You can't see this when you have toddlers. The reward that's coming is you're raising. your friends you're raising your future favorite people you know and and i would say that's how we feel like there's nobody we'd rather be with on a friday night than our oldest kids like they are so fun now the youngest one we love him but you know he's in seventh grade y'all he doesn't have a frontal lobe like we're still massively parenting we're still we're still in process there but the ones that we've raised we're like gosh that was worth at all like they are they are so fun and we like them and it's just

it makes life really rewarding and fun but you can't see that i wish somebody had painted a better picture of that when we had diapers and toddlers and it felt like what are we even doing and life it's over um it really is an investment into something that you're going to love later i love that what about when so you guys kind of do you would you say you work together was that a fair beside each other yeah somebody told us you really need to have your own you're both directional leaders and so you really need your own movies to direct like you really need your own movies to direct like you really need your own places to lead we're good consultants for each other yeah we don't like run things together or we'd kill each other yeah yeah or it just wouldn't last long we would try

and go no no that's interesting so how he's in charge of his things and i'm in charge of mine and then we visit each other and we love each other's opinions on our work but we don't yeah i'm curious Zach, I want to take a little tangent. Your time as a pastor. I don't want to like, I feel like we could have an entire conversation about this, but summarizing your entire time as a pastor, because we talk about relationships,

because we talk to married people, singles, dating, is there one piece of advice from your time as a pastor witnessing all the changes and journeys people are taking within a church that you would give to people in relationships? I guess marriage is, probably. yeah so that i mean that's the beauty of being a pastor is that you are let in to people's lives in a really intimate way and that was that's the the part of it more than probably anything that i miss of of having that kind of place in people's life uh it's super it's super tender and super

vulnerable um and super sacred and so what i would say what i would say to people is go find that church go find that community of people to plug into that you can walk with people beside just because we live even even in a church community I mean everything is so fragmented in our society or or we've gone through pandemic where nobody could attend things in person and so there's this real sense that that we haven't we haven't seen each other we haven't been in bodily form in proximity to people and there is just like we're looking at each other on a screen and it's awesome but how much better is it when we're actually on couches together in the same room with people rubbing shoulders um there's there's some

there's some real exchange and real quality of relationships that you just can't get and so that's what a church a community of faith uh can offer to people and and and we're all we're all sitting here we're all looking for mentors we're looking for help uh we're all trapped in our season of life in our circumstances. And if we don't have that extended community and wiser people that have walked through this with us, we're going to be stuck. And so I would say, yeah, go find your people. We always just say don't, don't fear counseling because counseling really did change and save our marriage. I would say we were at a place where I said, I don't, I don't believe in divorce. So I'm not going to divorce you, but I would if I did.

believe in it like i i just i was really committed to marriage but i i was that unhappy and that was kind of my cry over the bow and so we started going to counseling and and it really did bring us so much understanding i have another a couple that we're great friends with right now that's in it right now and it's reminding me of all the power of it but it's basically tools that people have in their hand all of a sudden it's like a hammer and nails right it's like oh i didn't know i needed to communicate this way i didn't know my wife needed this like it's just just when you're sitting there, you know, in alone, which we've all been together a lot, right, in the last few years in your house, there is just kind of, it's hard to have perspective

and what an outside, it can be a mentor or, you know, pastor, a counselor can do is give you perspective and help you know how to bridge gaps that are inevitably there, right? Every marriage, of course marriage is hard. It's two very independent people that are completely different from each other, trying to live together. And it is, of course, it's hard. Yeah. And there's no magic to counseling. I say counseling only works if it works. Like if two people or one person, if you're single, if you want to grow and you want change and you want people speaking to your life, like that's going to happen. You taking the initiative to do that. But what a counselor does, it's this independent, neutral third party that can hear both sides.

and oftentimes they can repeat the same thing to your spouse or to your significant the other that you've been saying, but all of a sudden you can hear it because that person is not the source of the hurt. And so there's nothing super magic. Yes, they're trained and you want to pick good ones rather than bad ones, but there's something really great about having a neutral third party, a wise sage that you can go to. And one more thing about that. I I think we think of counseling as something you do when you're absolutely desperate. And we always tell people you should have a counselor handy. Like you should just know the one you want to go see.

And when you get to a place where you feel stuck, go. Because it doesn't, that's how you prevent getting to that dark place. And I think, you know, the reason we have a healthy family, the reason we have a healthy marriage is all of those early years, the investment we've put in. It was not something that just happened. It happened because we worked really hard at it. Today's video is sponsored by Hopwater. I want to tell you all about hop water. We actually did a video just now with them.

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Don't forget EastFam so you don't miss out on this offer. We'll also link it down below. This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626-horsepower twin-turbal V-8 engine, The Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar rally, the ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. Yeah, Sean and I, that was one of our resolutions last year to go to a counselor three times. At least three times a year.

I love that. And so we met with one. Because that counselor, sorry, that counselor now knows you, right? So there's not any fire. Maybe there aren't fires to put out. But those first few sessions, they just have to get to know you. They can't be helpful until they've taken in that. But if you guys hit a major bump or there's a major suffering in your life that you need,

you guys could jump in with that counselor now because they know you. And there's a trust that, hey, they're not going to choose her. I don't feel like the counselor's choosing her side. And we have a previous relationship. But we met with one of these counselors. And she was like, okay, so what's going on? and we were like, oh, nothing, we were just, we just wanted to do, like, maintenance, make sure we're all running smoothly.

That's awesome. And she was like, in my seven years of doing this, I've never had a couple come to me. Just without, and it was like, oh, my gosh, this is wrong. This needs to change. So, anyway, I'm curious. So what social cadences do Jenny and Zach have together, maybe on like a weekly basis if you're going to print out like a template schedule of, hey, you know, we go to church together? Jenny and I do, and we're around a lot of people, and we do, you know, group game nights or

whatever. Because I feel like that was one thing that when Sean and I have been through rough patches, you know, you want to balance it out. But one thing that helped is spending time with other people just to get your head out of, you know, the immediate situation and back up a little bit. And to your point about being mission driven, like, again, I feel like whenever you're serving somebody that puts things to perspective, like, oh, you know what? You know, her not closing the cabinet doors wasn't that big a deal probably but so like friends and having close community as you were talking about Zach is a big part of providing perspective so what does that look like for Virginia and Zach? First of all I love the question because I do think if something is

just set in your calendar in fact I did it this morning we have a little group that we get together as couples once a month and then we get together as girls once a month and so today one of the girls sent the schedule for the semester. And what's awesome is I'll go plug that in my calendar. We don't have to plan it. They know it's at my house. They know it's at 7 p.m. And we know what we do.

Like it's all set. So as long as we just get it on the calendar, there's not a lot of thought. I think when we're thinking, oh, we should spend time with people. Yeah. And then you try to book it and it's hard to book and where we're going to go. And it just does a lot of work versus saying, you know what? I'd love to start this little gathering where we do separate club every month or we do book club or we do small group or whatever it is.

that you do together. And so we, we have them over and it's so easy. We just, we keep it easy. We don't eat dinner because that's work, but we, you know, we'll sit there and sometimes do dessert, sometimes do wine. And, um, and it's just easy and fun. And then we, we read a book together right now. That's what we've been doing. And it's a book that definitely impacts marriage, but it isn't just about marriage. And it's just, I think setting times is a good thing. And then you have a small group of guys by putting in your calendar, like literally, hey, we're going to on February, you know, 31st, I'm booking in the calendar at 6 a.m. We're going to my house.

And then that way, that's so good. I'm going to do that today. I'm literally, I'm going through my head. I'm like, I'm going to invite these people and this is going to happen. It's so easy to do, but it's also so easy to like, hey, you know, you text a friend, hey, I would love to get together. And then it never happens. Right.

Right. I think people appreciate it. Like today was another friend that set all the dates and we all were relieved. Like, okay, it's in our calendar. Yeah. I didn't have any conflicts. Yeah. And that feels good.

Yeah. Yeah, I've got a group of five guys, and we meet weekly, 7 a.m. 7 to 8, an hour on Friday mornings. And we're just, we're bringing life together. And it's a way for us to hold each other in check. And, and yeah, it's a, it's a significant commitment. But the only way for us to really be hopeful into each other's lives is to meet that consistently. Because stuff, stuff just goes on. Or if we're traveling. or like if we only met once a month and that somebody had a conflict like and they didn't make that meeting then it's once every two months and how much of life happens in two months that you miss out on and so how can I be a helpful friend if I don't have that frequency in lives and so

so yeah so I've got a group of guys and I do that with girls too we have a once a week gathering but it's so easy because we're all close together in proximity so total you know it's one hour for us too and that goes really fast but we're kind of just going this is what's going on and then we can follow up later and know what's going on each other's lives so we're really committed to all this right now all of our kids are big enough that that's easy to do yeah the other the other gathering a lot of us have younger care a lot of people have younger kids and so we just you know that takes a little more planning but i think it's possible even with young kids it's just bring your kids over And I think that's the other thing I saw in other cultures was they just raise their kids together.

So all the kids are there and they eat pizza and it's not perfect dinner, but it's, it's just fun, you know, and I'm messy. And I think choosing that is a harder choice, but it's a lot easier way to get together with people. Yeah. And I guess I would say that even if it's messy, even if it doesn't work out perfectly, like it is worth the fight. even in you guys season of life where it's just really complicated like those intentional relationships and having having that in your life is is worth the fight to make it happen Sean's 30th birthday was not too long ago and we went out to dinner and one of my friends just had a baby and so you know we were like excited to go be with adults because we're in the phase

where we're always around kids and my buddy was like hey babysitter fell through can we bring the baby we're like oh dang it yes but it was like otherwise holding him because i was like oh i love babies so much but it was like otherwise we're not going to see this guy so i guess you know it was such such a small obstacle for us to have to swallow but um anyway it made me think of that i i was challenged recently um i joined a men's group and the organizer of this had me sign a contract saying hey you're going to sit down and go over this contract with you're going to sit down and go over this contract her wife saying like we had to sign it too yeah we've booked all of these meetings like we put these on the calendar and you're saying that you're going to show up you're going to have prepared like the

it was a list of books you're going to have read those and have notes and stated that i as a wife had to be in support of him like so i was basically signing off and saying i will do what i can to help support him and make sure he makes it to the men's group and it was such a good first of all I saw that contract and I was like, this is hilarious and what a joke that feels way too intense and aggressive for a men's group. Right. But then it was an actual really good exercise for me on, hey, what does it mean to commit? Like, we're either going to do this men's group and it be something that's really good that we help each other, build each other, learn from each other, like you're talking about Zach. Or we're just going to be a group of guys who hopefully gets together, you know, like hopefully maybe 40% of us show up at each other.

meeting and so by the end of it I was like this is amazing and so powerful and later on to that the fact that I typically operate with like committing to something without talking to my wife so like that never goes over well but it was like a really really good challenging exercise for me to go through with this men's group but I would I would actually recommend it to people yeah he he since started his own men's group and he's doing the same thing yeah well that's true I think that's so interesting because people you hear that and you're kind of shocked yeah that's that's like we don't commit to things like that anymore right yeah reality is you loved it so much like that guy who ever started that yeah was brave to say something like that but it has brought such goodness in

your life right yes i think we are afraid to be intentional and we're afraid to ask for a commitment from people and then we have shallow relationships and nobody's happy and we actually don't over years grow together and care about each other and take care of each other. And so I actually love that. I think those are some of the ways you can take like our big cities and our busy lives and actually build things, structures and that people have had throughout history because they are all committed to each other. Most people never move more than 20 miles away. And so it is from where they were born. So this is how people have committed to each other for every generation on earth until recently. So it's just, it's really cool. And that's a way I'm going to, I'm going to steal that

from you. I'm going to make my small group sign a contract. Well, yeah. I have so many thoughts on like the loneliness and the community aspect and like the depth. Ander and I are, we try to be very intentional when it comes to depth of relationships. Because something that we started very early on in the dating process is we didn't like superficial things. We don't want to talk about what the sky looks like today we just don't we like having philosophical deep heartfelt conversations that kind of is what stimulates us but we have found over the years that a lot of people have a really hard time going into deep conversation or deep commitments or deep relationships and usually a lot of that can spark drama because you're getting to a vulnerable place with someone where they either get

defensive or they get embarrassed or uncomfortable, what are your thoughts when it comes to building a community on drama, on gossip, on all those superficial things that tend to happen? Do you keep people within your community who spark that? Do you try to work through it? Do you grow through it? What are your thoughts there? I'm so excited because you guys have also had teenagers too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm familiar. But you're exactly right. It happens with adults too. We never. outgrow it. It feels good to gossip. There's a reason people gossip. It's actually amazing to feel like you're better than someone else to feel like you've got some information that other people don't have. Like all that feels good or we wouldn't do it. So there's a lot of grace to to that

because I've accidentally done it too and I write books about not doing it. So, you know, I think there's a reality to it that it's good to just start with. And so I think people actually, though, I think at their core, they want to be good friends. I think people want. want to be healthy people. And so I think back to your buddy that made that contract. Throughout the book, I realized I was building rules and rails to something that feels very vague. I never got taught how to be a good friend. I don't remember ever in first grade somebody sitting me down and saying, this is how you be a good friend. You don't gossip. You include other people. I mean, I remember those little things being said along the way, but like nobody put it in the context of this is how

you have and make friends. And so I realized when I was writing the book, that's kind of what I'm writing and to put in there the basics and to realize that sometimes you need to lay ground rules with your people. And it's a brave thing to do, but like your buddy did, you had to sign a contract. I just think there's something about going, y'all, we don't want to do this. I mean, assume they don't. Assume you know what? You don't want to be toxic.

I don't want to be toxic. I'm tempted to do this too. Let's not do it. Like, let's just choose to not do it. Now, there are people that they love being toxic and they love being dramatic. That is, to me, the rare person, but they exist. And I think if they really want that, that's not going to be a healthy friend to choose or to put in your inner circle.

You can keep hanging out with them, but just don't share your secrets. Like, they're going to, you know, don't treat them as an inner circle person. I think there's different levels of relationships and you can keep them out here at acquaintance and go to dinner every once in a while. but but you know that inner circle of safe people that's going to be a smaller number and that is where I look for people that are healthy but even those people are going to gossip sometimes be unhealthy not tell me they're upset with me when they are and then it turns into a bigger deal you know all those things happen still and that's where you learned to to do conflict um I tell my

kids you're not you're not close friends with anyone until you've gone through a conflict because you will eventually have a conflict and then you know that's a close friend when you when you work it out and you deal with it together and you forgive each other and then you're okay again that is a good friend because you know that's not going to end that that you can go through and weather conflict and so conflict isn't something to be avoided it's something to to manage and to work through and it will happen if you do life the way I'm talking about, it will happen. And the decision you have is, is this someone worth fighting for?

Is this someone to go through the conflict? Or do I just let go and start over? Which is super costly in the world we live in. We don't have time to make new friends every year. You know, it's just, it's hard to let go of friendships just because there's conflict. We've got to choose to work through it. And so, yeah, I would say depending on the person, and I say give people a chance, because most people just don't know how to have deep conversations.

they've never done it and the fact that y'all are so good at it it's almost like hey let me let me ask a great question and and test it and see and when they don't know what to do with it coach him a little i know that sounds so elementary but i think i've learned like people really just need help they need they need help of knowing you know what this is what i need from this conversation or come into it and say hey i just really need advice on this situation or i need you to listen. And I think we're afraid to say things like that. And then we walk away disappointed because they talk the whole time or because, you know, they didn't meet our need. And I'm like, just start by saying, hey, this is what I need right now. And I think it starts to

change the trajectory of relationships when we kind of say, I always say to my kids, use your words. Say what you need. Say what you want. Like, you know, and I think sometimes we hide it. And then we're sad when we don't get what we need, but we never said what we needed. You're preaching right now. You know, we have to talk about athletic greens. They just raised a bunch of money. They're crushing it right now. And I'm so excited because the product itself is fantastic. And now the business is finally, you know, getting the exposure that it deserves.

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We'll link it down below. Let's get back to it. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Does dad have any additional thoughts on drama?

But your dad, sorry, Zach. He's like, oh, oh, he's glad he's a guy. But your boys have had drama plenty. Yeah, but they take after you. No, not just our sons. Yes, they are very dramatic. Our sons. But I mean, you're like, you're in your group.

Like, y'all have had to work through things. And I feel like y'all have had to work through more. than us sometimes so guys they they bond they bond uh shoulder to shoulder before they bond face to face usually like they that's that's how guys relationships usually start um examples of that like sports or just working just using your body sports so a lot guys it's like join a basketball league you know do something so and so there's that this is my guy uh before a lot of times that i'll get face to face and then i'll talk have a real relationship yeah and so we've gotten there with our small group and so we'll be face to face and I think the cool thing

about guys sometimes it's harder for girls to work through conflict they'll be catty and they'll talk about but guys just kind of we're going to go fight and we're going to go at each other and we're going to work through it and so I've got a yeah I've got a group of guys that will say the hard things to each other they'll do it in love we've had enough time together. where there's trust there, that I know that they're not bringing something to me that they have seen as a pattern in my life. They won't attack my character, but they'll say your behavior is not reflective of the character that I know you have. And so it doesn't, it doesn't diminish me of kind of who I am in my identity, but it does say, Zach, everything that we've seen in your

life. This is not a healthy pattern. This behavior is not. And I want to show it to you. You may not be able to see it. That's so good. I've been thinking about that when we like argue in our marriage. The first instinct I have with Sean is to be like, you never take out the trash. And that's like it's such a ridiculous statement. Because she has a hundred. Yeah, yeah. But to flip that and be like, you know, as you're saying, your behavior here in this instance and like, make that criticism small and calling out the it's so unlike the Zach that I know or the Zach that you know I've seen that's right it's like very it's a very powerful you know different way to go about it builds it builds up what you know about that person like

I I believe in you I've seen it I know this to be true huh this is this is odd yeah this is odd this is not reflective and so so you can receive it's easier to receive because it's not my character is not being attacked um okay fun question for you guys you guys been married almost 25 years and you're 25 how long did you date before you got married a year of dating a year of engagement we got married as little baby kiddos yeah we were very young we were like 20 we were 20 that's awesome and then we accidentally got pregnant which i know how it works anyway it was it was still was an accident and it was um you know we were we were young there to 22 so yeah it's it's been a lot of life so in your people yeah go ahead and i was say in your 27 years together

that okay math is right yeah what's your favorite date you've been on oh so good that's not that's yours to answer actually yeah i know um i can see that um so what comes to mind is I love dark restaurants. Yes. Candleight. Yes. That are quiet. Yes. And I don't know why. I live in Dallas. So there's just not a lot of those. Like there's not all of the places we go are like Mexican, like loud. And so to me like every awesome long day we've had has been it's just a really intimate environment. And the best is, I mean, we've spent most of our lives very, very poor. And so he was a pastor and that was about, you know, we just didn't have a lot of money. We had a bunch of kids. And so we would have to figure out how to, we couldn't go on trips

together. So we would get one night away and get a sitter for one night. That felt all doable. And that was, we did that probably three or four times a year. And so when I look back at our, at our married life, that saved us because we didn't have to be home at a certain time. We actually got to go to one of those dark restaurants and like talk for hours and not, we're, we're about getting home and so it just I think that's when I look back over our marriage like those are some of my best memories is just that one night and total right that was like three hundred dollars to do that night but if you get two nights it's even better if two nights is better because you can sleep in the next day yeah yeah

yeah yeah sleeping in is key the sleeping in is key yeah yes Zach what about you I would say the kind of those quarterly yeah in that season of life with young kids it was what we could afford it was where we could drive to we found a favorite bed and breakfast that you were friends with the guy and he gave us a really good deal yeah he gave us a great deal but it really felt like that we were escaping yeah and uh and so so yeah those are those are great memories even probably even better memories maybe even than the long trips that we've taken since in fact you won't take a long trip with me i know right eventually we get tired of each other And we are not made to, like, sit around.

We just, we can sit around for two or three days. And then we're getting. So I really had to stretch her. So, so we're going to go on a 25th anniversary vacation. And I said three nights. She said three nights. And I had to work hard to stretch her to four. It better be a good place.

It better be a good place. We better have some things to do. We need to go take some excursions or something. I will say we do have a three night thing as well. Yeah. Because. You do? Yes, because we always say,

I would so. much rather leave somewhere just like begging to stay longer than ever leave a place and be like I was bored we should have left yesterday yeah yeah and we always say it's like that three nights the three nights is like I want more the fourth night is like oh we should have gone home so sorry Zach sorry Zach it'll be a good trip it'll be a great trip after this he'll be like you know travel planning yeah it'll be okay I don't know yeah the answer to to what our favorite date has been. I do think there is something to, like, for the idea that even though you can do something

like with whatever resources or time available that you have doesn't always mean that you should or that's the best thing to do, like especially in our marriage, I feel like the instance that comes of mind that was most special was I had just gotten released by the L.A. Rams. and we went on like a two-day camping trip. This was before kids now, but like it was, you know, we could have stayed at a hotel or whatever, like, you know, rented a cabin. But we went camping and there was something about just us, you know, I was sad and she was

there for me and we were talking, but we had this really special moment together where And the best part of that is we had never camped before and we didn't own any camping gear. So we went to like a used, we went to like Goodwill, a used store. Sleeping bag. which I would not recommend, but anyway. But it was great. But, Sean, my respect for you just went up so high. Oh, you're not a camper, Jenny?

I didn't marry that girl. I will say, he took me on an RV trip, and it was just two nights, and I was like, never again. I mean, I had a bathroom, and I had a bed, and I still was like, no. I mean, to that, I will say, I am 1,000 percent, not that girl either. So that was like a, that was like I'm doing this for you, babe. His dream, it's his favorite. His dream in life is to do like a rough and tough RV trip across the country with our babies, like at the age that they're on now.

And I'm like never in a million years. If I had it my way, we would own nothing except for like an RV and like three pieces of clothes each and just like be nomads. He didn't marry that girl. Yeah. Thank you, it will never happen. But it is what it is. It's good.

It's good. You know that. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Jenny, Zach, thank you so much for taking the time. time to join us. Oh, we loved it, guys. This was really fun.

Check out Jenny's new book. Let's grab dinner. Yes, please. I'm going to get your number after this, Zach, all right? Because I want vacations. But check out Jenny's new book called Find Your People and also her podcast called Made for This.

She's written, Jenny's written some amazing books. Yes. Including get out of your head. But yeah, anything that she writes would highly recommend. So thank you for sharing some of your thoughts and research with us. and keep an eye on for Zach too because he's got projects in the works sport ice I'm just going to say it

I better freaking get some of the first these look amazing so I'm pumped but we'll also link all the good stuff down below but thank you guys again thanks guys