Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 106 our personality types clash

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

This week on Couple Things, we sit down with Susan Drumm: CEO Advisor and Leadership Coach, founder of the Meritage Leadership, and an expert on leading teams and discovering how her enneagram personality test can affect your team, relationships and help guide you to better understand yourself and the people around you.  We also took our own tests and found out some interesting insights on why we may clash on certain things 😂 You won’t want to miss this one! Check out Susan Drumm's website here! https://susandrumm.com/ https://meritageleadership.com/about/   We are sponsored by these companies that we love. Check them out below:    Athletic Greens ▶ Athletic Greens Is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/eastfam.   RASA ▶ 20% off your first purchase! Just go to WeAreRasa.com and use our special promo code EASTFAM20.   If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more.    Follow us on Instagram to keep the conversation going at https://www.instagram.com/couplethings...   And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail].   Subscribe for more! http://bit.ly/3rnOdNo   Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson   Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson   Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson   Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ   Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast   Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast   Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast   Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to A couple things with Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. Today we have a special one. We have Susan Drum, who might be the most qualified person we have ever had on this show. Her resume, I started reading it and I was like, why is she even doing this interview? She's a Harvard lawyer.

Yeah. She ended up going just for fun to London to study theater and drama. She worked with the Boston Consulting Group, and now she works with a leadership group called Meritage Leadership. And so we brought Susan on because she is. an expert in the Enigram personality test. And what she does is she'll work with organizations and leaders of companies to kind of figure out how they can do things better, be more efficient as a team and be closer net, just operate better.

But we thought it would be interesting for her to come on, evaluate what our enneagrams are, what the ramifications are of that. And then kind of discuss and give vocabulary around how Sean and I could do things better and where we might get hung up. So at the endogram, I'm not going to lie, was something that I have a healthy degree of skepticism around. Yes, you do. And we talk about this, but we'll talk about why actually. And she actually pinpoints exactly why you in particular are a skeptic when it comes to anyagrams. It's just personality tests are just interesting. And I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are on them. But I actually found this episode extremely

helpful. And whether you're the leader of a company or the leader of your family, I do think always evaluating how can we do things better as a unit. Now we have two kids, you and I, you know, there's just like constraints and there's things that need to be done. Again, in whatever context we're talking about. But Susan really helped with that. To start the conversation within your own household, you can actually go to susendrum.com and she has a customized seven question quiz to kind of have really sparked that conversation about what your tendencies are, what your, your habits are, and how you can really work on that relationship within your own household. Yeah. So we talk about a lot of things. We talk about Susan's background. We talk about the Enigram itself. Then we talk about

Sean and I's Enneagram. What type of people we gravitate towards and what type of people we have a lot of friction with. Yeah. And I really enjoyed this one. So if you want to find out more about Susan, what she's up to. We'll link her information down below. And also, please don't forget to subscribe and rate the show on whatever platform you're listening on. And without further do, we bring you Susan Drum. Susan, thank you so much for joining us today. We're very excited, a little nervous. So I'm not going to lie, you kind of had us take an evaluation, a little test, and we're going to be talking about that. And so not many people have access to that, but you do. yes yes it is so fascinating to use this tool called the anyagram i can't wait to talk to you more about

it i use it in the leadership development work that i do with teams and senior leaders and there's a lot of work that can be done with couples with it as well so it's perfect i think you might be the most qualified individual we've had on the show i was reading your resume the other day and i was like i don't know why she's doing our show you're one way too smart and way too qualified but so with that it is such an honor um but another side of this is you have been recommended to us before and then the enneagram has also been something that's been widely like requested and we had really never taken it except or before this we kind of played around with it and heard of it but this was the first time we had taken it so we're very curious to hear

what you say yeah i am you touched on a little bit of your leadership work that you do. Can you just tell us a brief background of who you are and what you do? Sure. So I work with teams and senior leaders to help the teams work more effectively together. And so some people would say I'm a marriage counselor from business and work with everything from very large companies, Fortune 50 companies, to private equity backed more later stage startup companies when they get to at least probably around 40 or so people is when they start to see, huh, how I'm leading is really impacting how my team is performing. And perhaps I never really focused on that as much as I need to now, because your success is

really going to be based at that level, how well you lead, inspire, retain talent, hire the right talent, all of those things. So that's what I go in and help companies do. And I have a consulting firm called Meritage Leadership. And we've got about 15 coaches and an extended team to do that type of work. What got you into this, Susan? Oh my God. I have a weird, I have a very weird, eclectic background. So I have been doing this work, this type of consulting for almost 20 years. But prior to that, I went to law school and decided not to practice law. Not just law school. You went to Harvard Law. Yeah, Harvard Law.

Yes, so you can imagine. I think my parents were like, what are you doing? But I could tell when I worked during my summers, you intern at different law firms. And I thought, wow, this is just not for me. I have all this loan debt that I'm coming out with. I don't know what I'm going to do. And that's when I started getting interested in consulting. and I was taking classes at Harvard Business School at the same time and transferring them over for

credits. And I was like, I should have gone that route. So that's how I went to work for BCG. So I've always had a lot of consulting in my background. So BCG's Boston Consulting Group that does more strategy consulting. And my career took some twists, other twist and turns, which I won't get into, except for one thing, about five years after law school, I took a hiatus and I went to drama school. So acting. And I did that in London. It was called the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. And it was in that process. I thought, my God, there's so much I could go back with and teach leaders what actors know about being authentic and how to connect and how to deal with that, you know, inner critic inside your head. As an actor, you really need to understand that and deal with it.

Otherwise, you're going to be concerned about what the guy in the front row was thinking about you, right? If you can't learn that level of focus. And so that's when I got into leadership development. So I found what I learned in the acting space. I could really translate into leadership development and started working for a boutique firm and then went out on my own shortly thereafter. So truly eclectic and all over the place, Harvard Law to London drama. Where did the Enneagram fall in your, like a journey with your career, but now with your consulting business?

Yeah. So about 10 years ago, I got very interested in this tool because it actually has a deeply spiritual side to it, which we don't really talk about in the business side, but it does. And I was interested in looking at that aspect. I'd worked with many assessments. There are lots of different assessments that get. it gets compared to, but it's very different. I'll tell you how it's different, but it is a, you know, there's things called Myers-Briggs

or disc, even Strengths Finder, which I wouldn't necessarily call an assessment of the same type. But it's very different in that it's looking at core motivators. So what drives you? Behaviors can look very different with the person of the same anagram type. and so all these other assessments are looking at behaviors or what I call almost like if you think of an iceberg but above the water things that you can see underneath it is like what's really driving those behaviors and when we can get to that level of motivator we can really understand what the path of growth is for you as an individual and if I'm in leadership development that's

what I really care about you know some of the other tests say okay I'm this and it's a little bit like, so what? What do you do about that? Whereas the anagram very clearly articulates the path of growth for yourself based on your anagram type. And there are different levels of growth in any type, depending on how much development work that you've done on yourself. Right. And so it's such a deep tool. It's far deeper than people can, I'm still learning things. And we're still learning things and understanding it. But it's an amazing, amazing tool for personal development. team development and leadership. What's the spiritual aspect of it?

I'm curious. It's a little bit like how you get in your own way and what keeps you. I'll go to the story that I once heard, which is the no one owns the Enneagram. And some, it's an ancient symbol. So some of the people, some of the very early on I had heard. through my teachings that it showed up in all different ways from Homer's Odyssey to a commune of monks in the 13th century noticed that there were patterns of behavior or the way people saw the world that were keeping them from being more godlike or closer to God. It was almost like the thing that gets in your way.

And they noticed because they were large that there was these clusters of how people saw the world. And so that's sort of the spiritual sizes. What keeps you from not being whole or closer to God or what's getting in your way or having you feel disconnected and rooted in personality structure? It does seem like the Enigram resonates with certain religious groups, Christianity in particular, where it's like, you know, it's a it's a big topic of discussion but is that how you view these kind of uh personality tests or indicators as as um hints to the patterns of behavior it's not like you know some people get caught up on like oh it says i'm a seven and i don't want to get boxed in with a certain personality type or what's your response to someone who feels that way well that's exactly what a seven

would do sevens want freedom and flexibility and options so yeah i i i just that, because I'm also a seven, that a seven is the most resistant to being typed, and that's part of the nature of a seven, right? And how you react to your report is exactly usually in line with what your type is. And then there's also type 9, which is the hardest to type because they morph into everyone else. And so it's hard to figure out. That's the peacemaker. But so your question was, does it, I view it as it's an exploration for you. So the report may say that, but what you need, the work you need to do is saying, take what resonates with you and leave the rest and use it like anything as a tool for your growth.

No one assessment can capture the full you. You are a unique individual and there's no one else. like you. And yet, these types of tools can be really helpful in looking at or uncovering a blind spot. And that's what it does. The analogy I like to use is we think as human beings that we're chameleons and can see 360 degrees, right? But the reality is we can't. We have a central vision and a peripheral vision. And where I put my focus of attention, i.e. what I'm motivated by, that's what I see, but there's something behind my head I can't see. And that's my blind spot. But in the model of the enigram, someone else is looking that direction. And so when I work with

teams on this, they're like, wow, I thought everybody thought the way I did. Well, they don't. And you also learn there's actually a gift in that person looking at which you can't see. And so sometimes when we do the debriefs with people to understand their anagram type, it's usually the blind spot. go, oh, I don't see that for myself. And I just, that's why it's called a blind spot, right? If you could see it, it wouldn't be a blind spot. Right. But when you talk to people that know you really well, they can say, well, yeah, sometimes I see some of that, right?

If they're willing to speak the truth. Yeah. Wait, I didn't get charged for my donut. It was free with this Tim's rewards points. I think I just stole it. I'm a donut. Steeler. Ooh.

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Let's get back to it. So bridging this a little bit to your leadership coaching, in learning someone's kind of like guidance in their Enneagram, you're able to coach them better to help with their relationships within their business and their leadership skills and kind of forming those bonds and being able to create stronger connections? Yeah, exactly. So one thing it does is build empathy in the team because you learn why someone's motivated by something else. And you have a better understanding for why they do the things that they do. And it doesn't become a mystery. It's not like, why is that person acting like this? This is crazy. I wouldn't do that. Well, you understand that better. But first, first and foremost, you understand yourself better. So you start to learn where your path of growth is. And your path of growth is actually linked to other enneagram types. So you start to learn the connection between types and something we can talk about later, which is they call them wing styles or

arrow lines. And those are, those are, not only does it point to the direction of growth for you, but it tells you who, who can be the most influential in your growth. And in some cases, it's probably the person that triggers you. But you have something to learn from that person. Talking about my wife. We're probably each other's triggers here. I don't know. We're expecting you to tell us we are not compatible people

that we're just each other's, you know, our genesis. One thing we've enjoyed... You're not so bad. You're not so bad. Okay, good. She's kidding. I think you love me.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I get you. One thing we've enjoyed. doing with this show is taking Sean and I are both pretty interested in the entrepreneurial

business space, but taking these concepts like your leadership coaching with organizations and applying them to kind of what we spend all day, every day doing, which is being in the family context, parenting, in marriage. So can you talk about how,

what are the similarities in the family situation and the organizational level versus maybe some of the different is that you'd see. Yeah, I think certainly as a partnership, you're a partnership and learning what are, how can you support each other in your growth, understanding each other in a deeper way, having more empathy for why you do the things that you do.

You know, all of those will drastically improve a marriage, right? And understanding each other better. And then understanding where you get in your own way and you could almost have a shortcut like, oh, there I am doing that thing again, right? And is that healthy for me or not? Or what can I learn from you? And certainly in the family unit, you know, as you learn, as your kids grow and they, more of their personality gets formed.

I know all the Enneagram types of my family and can better understand. I know that, you know, certain members of my family are going to need a lot of appreciation and knowledge that's going to be part. that's part of their type. And they're very much motivated by that. So why not give that gift to them? I do want to challenge you probably closer to the end of our interview, especially for the people listening.

If you could generalize, which might be difficult, each number and what it is like they seek, like what they need, and what might be their, what stands in their way, if that makes sense. How can love languages relate to them maybe or like what they need to? Or just in the enneagram vocabulary, too. Yeah, for sure. So with that, I think we should find out what our anagrams are. I'm very curious.

So who wants to go first? Andrew. I'll go first. Thank you. Thank you for submitting me. Yeah, I submit you. Okay. So, well, first of all, I should ask you, Andrew, did you get a chance to read the report I sent you?

just because I want to know what you thought. I just read visionary and I was like, I couldn't agree more. Oh, my gosh. Ridiculous. I did. It was, it was interesting. I also, it mentions where I'm stressed, I think. And from the looks of it, I'm not that stressed.

I'm a pretty chill kind of guy, it looks like. But I know nothing also. I'm coming from a super amateur. I think he's a pretty stressed individual. Yeah, you're wrong. Well, if that part is really a little bit self-reported, like if you say you're stressed, it'll come back as in stressed. But by its very nature, type seven, so let me describe what type seven is. Oh, so you are a seven.

I am. The guy who doesn't want to be boxed in. It is the, it's called the enthusiastic visionary. And they tend to be optimist. They tend to look at what could go right. and are looking for multiple options. They're great brainstorming partners because they'll come up with like five different ways

to do something. They like options. They like fun. They like freedom. And fun is a huge motivator, I think, for a seven. Like, if it's not fun, why do it? And, you know, I think that's why I work for myself because I don't, you know,

that to me, the freedom of being an entrepreneur entrepreneur is really powerful for me and motivating as a seven as well. The blind spot for a seven is, well, there's a number of things. Some sevens can be procrastinators, although that's not always the case. We can also have sevens who there's a, there's the real vice, because each type has a virtue and a vice. The real vice is called gluttony. And the gluttony doesn't have to be in food or alcohol or whatever you might initially think.

It could also just be in this wanting like too much of a good thing all the time. Meaning we not only have to go to one country, we have to go to 10 countries or how it shows up for me. And this is what I'm going to ask you how it shows up for you, Andrew, is give me the next personal development seminar or retreat to go to and I'm on it. right and it's for me the gluttony is of the quest of this where i'm i'm constantly seeking where i can overextend myself to the point where it feels like it's so easy to say yes to initially but then my schedule is crazy and i'm like oh my god i've signed up for too many things or i'll see something as that'll be easy to do let's just do that and underestimate what's required to finish a task because I can already see it is done. So with a little bit of that

description, I'd love to hear what shows up for you in the gluttony space. Yeah, gluttony is an interesting term. I, well, I don't often feel overextended. I don't think that was something that I meshed with but I for sure and Sean knows this she sees it every day where it's like oh hey I want I have a vision for all of these 40 different videos I want to film and we start off by like me thinking oh if we if we just film one I'm fine like that'll that'll be all I need but then we film one I'm like oh but babe let's do this one too am I am I right on with this and then the 10 different country thing is hilarious because we took a we took a backpacking trip through Europe and Sean probably would have just chilled in Italy the whole time but I I wanted to go to I think it was

legit we went we did 13 countries 13 countries in like two weeks yes because I was like oh I don't know when the next time we're going to be over here it's like opportunistic of like why not now like we got to get it done like don't wait this is our our one shot at it maybe so let's just do it but um Yeah, I would say that's very accurate about me. It sounds right. And I would even challenge you to say you do sometimes feel overextended. He's definitely a yes man. He wants to make every opportunity work and doesn't see the sacrifice or commitment that it actually takes to fulfill it at all.

Well, okay. I don't want to talk about myself all the time. But I do think I'm fortunate in the sense that I see like the optimistic side of everything. I see like purpose in whatever it is where it's like, oh, my gosh, that could. That's really good because of X, Y, Z. You know what I'm saying? So that's why, that's why maybe I don't, you know. If we got invited to 15 different functions in one day, he'd be like, we'll make it work.

And I'm like, no. And the reason you probably, she sees that, Sean sees that in you, Andrew, but you might not see the overextension is a potential challenge area is not seeing what's going wrong because seven the worldview you want to project is I'm okay it's all good I'm okay you're okay we're doing great and there's a there's an unwillingness to look at the deeper pain or the or let's not unwillingness let's say like a little bit softer like there's an inclination not to go there and to pretend everything is better than it really is because seven doesn't like to deal with pain or feel pain it's like what the

motto could be why feel bad if you can feel good like it's all good people and the problem that's an awesome trait to have right that's a beautiful gift the challenge can come when if you overlook the potential pain points they actually can come back to bite you in the butt later and it can feel blindsided when the seven has sort of put some blinders on and not seen it. Why are you laughing? This sounds so right. Because I even know there's been times like within our marriage where I'll bring something up and it'll be like small and small and small until it gets to a point where

I'm like, no, this is an issue that we have to work on. And he's like, where did this come from? This is like nothing. like I there's yeah it just sounds right good this is really helpful it's honestly it reminds me of like marriage counseling where you go in and like maybe they're not spot on but it doesn't like the main point is not to get it 100% correct as much it is like hey well it sparked interesting conversations and then also it gives you the vocabulary or like the grid to actually understand like oh, maybe I am being, you know, a little bit more like this quality than this quality.

And Sean needs that quality. And so anyway. Are you just not wanting to be boxed in, baby? Don't box me in. I get me out of here, man. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Is there anything else you wanted to know? I mean, there's so much more I could go with here. I could talk about directions of growth for you. I could get into some types. I mean, there's. I would love to know direction of growth for him. And as you used like the verbiage earlier, what it is, what is it that he seeks or like needs within his like enneagram type? Yeah.

Great. Great. Well, I'll answer the last question. Well, in terms of seeking, it's new, interesting, fun experiences and a forward momentum. So having the option to visualize the future and feeling like. you're moving towards that future where you're both similar is you'll both have impatience in your seven will be impatient and three will be impatient as well your type three competitive achiever by the way Sean on another side we'll get to that in a minute but both of you have

sort of an impatience so it's um if you if you just be aware of that are you rushing in and think through, you know, is this the right move for us? So there's that piece. In terms of direction of growth, so in anyogram theory, you have two different ways to grow. The first one is something called the wing styles, which are the numbers on either side of your number. So for you, Andrew, it would be a type six and a type eight. and a type 8.

So what it means is that there's, usually you already lean towards one. So if you ever hear some people say, oh, I'm a 7 with an 8 wing, it just means that they're tapping more into that style of style 8. So type 6 is called the loyal skeptic. They're always looking at what could go wrong. They're great troubleshooters. So where the 7 is the optimist of what could go right, the 6, it tempers. if you lean more into the six, you're going to temper with, well, let's look at the potential

drawbacks here, or let's look at the what could get in our way, where if seven, pure seven doesn't want to be burdened with that because it's limitation. It's like, ah, no, it's fine, it's fine. So the more you can lean into that, the more whole you are, the more balanced you are. Likewise, the type eight is called the powerful challenger or called the active controller. These are people that have very big presence. A lot of CEOs that I coach are type eights. They want to take the hill, take charge. They're very direct. And I mean direct. They will not mince words. They can be very intimidating with their presence. Almost you can feel their presence in the room, even when they're not speaking. And they're like tireless going after

achieving what they what they want to achieve a little bit similar to the three in that way except for the fact that they are this this incredible directness that sometimes too direct and they have a lot of anger and the anger can come out very I once worked with an eight who threw a chair in a meeting like it's a bit it's you know it can be or as an eight knows it's sort of seething underneath there. So what the seven can learn from the eight, and this is all in that she beg gave you, Andrew, that says achieving growth, is how to be a little bit more narrow and focused on what are the goals you're going after so that we don't take on too much, right, the gluttony, and really hard charging towards those. And then learning to be more in touch with

all even anger because the seven usually was like i don't want to be angry that's to get in touch with the anger because anger helps you set boundaries and when you can get in touch with the anger you'll be more likely to be have more discernment about what you take on so there's lessons on either side of this it makes sense so far yeah question about the wings is it true that um you can't be like a seven wing two it's got to be it's got to be on the like one or the other side it's one of the yeah there's no it's it's one that's the first piece there's now we'll talk about the airlines but and the eight being kind of a super tough doesn't mince words think of i don't know the general i will let sean answer which which wing do you think i resonate with

first do you want me answer or do you answer first i would say probably the eight really yeah that is I was definitely going to say landslide six. No. But it's interesting how. Because I think your tendency is not so much visual anger, but he goes very cold, very, very cold. That's true. And he goes, void of emotion. It's all locked down seriousness.

Let's get it done. And it becomes very general. Like, yeah, I would say 100% eight. That's super interesting. That's good. Yeah. I'm glad I just, I'm glad I asked you that. I couldn't see you throwing a chair in the office.

And there's things to learn from both. And I'm just giving you some examples. There's a lot more, right, behind there and a lot more richness. And really having some of these people in your life can be beneficial. What you notice, I have one of my best friends is a six. And normally, that kind of thing would trigger the crap out of me. I just like, really? But I've learned to listen to her.

And sometimes I'll, like, double check. Like, so how do you see this? Because ultimately, and when we do this in a team, but you can think about this in a family unit is it's cognitive diversity, diversity of thought, right? And you can make the best decisions when you have more diverse thinking styles. Now, the harder, let's say the harder places of growth are something called the error lines, which are those lines in the diagram. For type seven, it points to the one. which is the strict perfectionist and it points to type 5 or in other words type 5 points to 7 which is called the quiet observer or the specialist and these are these are even harder paths of growth and really truly probably the people that would trigger you the most the five being the tends to go deep on one subject matter right where seven can be broad and multifaceted like there's no surprise I have an acting degree a law degree like that's so

very seven like all these things going all these things going on but a five will go deep every chief medical officer I've ever worked with was a type five like going deep specialized, a little bit more introverted, creates space and boundaries, and will want to not rush into things. Unlike a seven, that would be like, let's go. The type one, the strict perfectionist, is probably the hardest of all. Because the type one sees one right way to do things and has a very strong internal sense of right and wrong. Always good to have a one on your team, Andrew. If you can have a one on your team somewhere, it will help you. That's good to know. Where do I find? Can I just like a LinkedIn profile people with one enneagrams or how do you know your

anyagram type? I need a one. Yeah. What feels more challenging to you? Both for sure. Both for sure. where like the five i'm like i feel like my tendency would be to think that they're not doing anything like you do one thing but i feel like you're not doing anything right and then the one i'm like you're you're killing my vibe here you're making us way too slow and i i value like in business and family like flexibility uh you know agility um quick learning like No, we're not going to do it perfect, but we're doing it. And perfectionists, which Sean has a little bit of. It's like, hey, we're never, like, if you always have this approach of we can't do it

until it's perfect, it's never going to get done. So, yeah, both for sure. But enough about me. Let's talk about Sean. I think he has a harder time with the perfectionism side. You think so? Yeah. Yeah.

Now, so Sean, you did a, a different assessment than, um, than we normally do. And I need to ask if that resonated with you or not because, um, and the reason I say it is because the accuracy, it can be accurate. Absolutely. But I want to, if it wasn't, then we can try to figure out what was the right type. Um, I felt like it was pretty accurate. I, in reading like the, um, summary of it or a view, I 100% resonated with the like negatives of the three if that makes sense. So I can't even, I have to pull up like the paragraph, but it was basically like the perfectionism side.

I'm driven by the thought of failure. I'm driven by like all of that. I was like, yeah, that's me. Yeah. So. So then for the audience, type three is called. the competitive achiever or sometimes called the productive performer and there's not one name so I'm giving you different names and sometimes people like to choose what resonates for them but these are some

examples and threes are all about efficiency let's get it done the quickest way to get it done and they're very goal driven even if that means uh when susan sends a link to the test that you're supposed to take you just take a different one you're just trying to get done I had on my list it was like do anagram and i was like okay i'm getting it done i bought the code i did the like i did everything and i was like check it off and then yeah does she make a list of to-does while on vacation um yeah i would say yeah i'd find something to make a list about yeah yes so threes make lists all the time even while on vacation um it is it's really motivated by being successful. So failure is a four-letter word to a three. Now, nobody likes to fail, but nobody

hates to fail more than a three. It's like death, okay, to a three. So there's even sometimes, and both seven and threes have this ability to reframe things, so it's not necessarily a failure, right? And I'll give you an example that I once heard from another practitioner who said that her client said that he successfully completed three marriages. Oh my God. Yeah. So the internal drive is I must be successful and I must win. That's why it's competitive, right?

Like I've got to rise above. And so the vice could be behind that, well, I would first say the gift is this ability to figure out what you need to do to succeed and do that. so you're very adaptable and almost if you push it too far chameleon like like who do i need to be now to be successful some of the best salespeople are type threes you know because they can read their audience and they know how to change and more now the dark side of that is if you do that too much there's a question of who are you really who are you behind who you feel like you need to project to the world to be successful and you may not even

even know that because you're so wrapped up in well what is successful like and i need to be that so i think some deeper soul searching work that's external to what the world what the world deems is successful is really helpful for three so thoughts on that so far i mean i can go into more detail but yeah i feel like my soul was just read there i think that's about as accurate as i've heard before because I truly have like had those thoughts before going through like so many different career pivots. I'm like who am I if I were to like stop trying to like please someone because I think it's what they want to see to a certain extent. So yeah. I'm thinking Sean gives speeches and a big story that she tells is like her winning the silver medal and feeling

better about it. And it was like a big revelation moment for her because she was like, oh, I was supposed to win the gold, but I actually for the first time feel more satisfied with my silver because of my performance that I gave. And so,

anyway, I feel like that fits right in. Yeah. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race.

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Why not? So trade out your coffee for this. Try it out. We'll also link it down below. Or you could have it on top of coffee. You could do this and coffee. Where the seven can be really good for you. And we'll talk about where you can benefit each other. Seven can be really good for you because they'll encourage you to play, to play more and to have fun, right?

Whereas three will be really good in focusing you on really going after the, again, a little bit the accomplishing and finishing the goals where a seven can move on kind of easily like oh that's not working out let's move on the three will like no we have to we have to cross that off the list i will say lexie who you've connected with is sitting behind the camera she's like mm-hmm she said this is so true yep yep so where a three has to grow is the type two which is the considerate helper and the type four which is the authentic creative and i'll tell you how, in what ways they can grow. But there also may be things that you're already leaning into. Like I said, you can lean into one side versus another already. Like I have a lot of eight

in me that I had to learn to adapt because I'm dealing with so many aides and CEOs and the work that I do, I had to learn to be very direct, like an eight. So I would say I'm seven leaning to an eight or an eight wing. So considerate helper, these are types that are always, is looking for how they can serve others and that's wonderful and they're very giving their team players. They're highly empathetic. They can feel others emotions as if they are their own. And sometimes they get confused. Like they think what other people are feeling is what they feel, but that's not actually necessarily the case. But they're really good at building rapport with people. And, you know, their motto would be, I can make anyone like me. Now,

The difference between the two and the three is the three says, I want you to respect me. The two is, I want you to like me, right? And so there's some similarity in those pieces, but the blind spot or the dark side for the two, but can also be a little bit manipulative because I really need acknowledgement and appreciation, but I'm never going to tell you that, and I hate to let you know that. So I'm just going to do all this stuff for you, but I really just want you to like me, right? And, and so they can't see the manipulation behind that. They think it's, oh, it's so altruistic.

Like, no, it's actually not. Okay. Both of y'all stop laughing, okay? They're laughing. Thank you so much for that, Susan. I actually had this conversation the other day. Oh, my gosh. With a friend of mine about a lot of the arguments to get in,

because I'll get mad because he won't want to cuddle on the couch. and I'm too prideful as like a perfectionist and I'm like well I'm not going to ask him to cuddle me because then maybe he doesn't actually want to get it but I like I want him to but I can't ask for it so I'm just going to do everything in my power to hopefully earn it but if he still yeah oh yeah that's my mind or just get pissed off yeah one of the two and then I feel like I failed and then I get really mad wow yeah yeah I sounds about right. Like seeing it play out in real life. Oh, yeah. But notice you even said, I have to earn it. That is such a type three mentality. I don't deserve it unless I've earned it.

And that's what's driving me, right? To cross off this list. Dang. Yeah. Yeah. The type four, just so you know, that's the authentic creative. And these are people who are very tied into the deeper mission of things. so great places sometimes to understand versus just winning like truly what matters but they're also

artistic and so some threes this is a good place for them to work because you know if you can work on both left and right sides of the brain the creative and the it's great but creativity is not efficient and for a lot of threes that's very hard to like get into a creative endeavor but it can really help your brain development to do so so i don't know do you do anything creative um I like to, yes. I just don't, I try to find time for it. I would say our work is like very creative, but Sean has to be like a perfect.

We were decorating a cornhole board with our kids the other day. I don't even know how that situation happened, but like she was drawing these perfect flowers. And then our two-year-old would like smear and I just feel like, oh. Yeah. Deep breath, deep breath. Yeah. But yes, I do love to be creative if I have, like, the perfect space for it.

Yeah. That's a good sign. That's a really good sign. I mean, to me, that says that shows growth, right? And personal development growth for your type to be, to be interested and willing to go down that path. That's good. Okay. What are ways that sevens and threes vibe versus might get hung up in areas?

Yes. So I pulled together like a couple of. little notes on this because I figured, oh, this will be good. So I would say the three goal orientation is really well matched for the seven multi-option brain. So you guys will run hard and run fast. You might overrate the fun aspects, both of you actually, while glossing overdefex. So that could be a potential thing. And here's why the threes can deceive themselves by working so hard not to fail and going full speed ahead that often there isn't a like, let's do a retroactive look at what went wrong and why. Now, I'm not saying all the time.

And if you do do this, that just shows growth. So that's great. But I'm saying like here's our tendencies that could happen. So that's some initial pieces. And the seven can avoid looking at painful situations and rationalize failure by looking at the future. And so, as I mentioned before, when you're paired together, it can lead to the sort of surprising and unforeseen problems, such as like a financial crisis or child acting out that you both will miss because of your orientation, because both of your orientation, Sean, to like, achieve and laser focus let's get the goals let's cross off the list and the seven's not wanting to look back only look ahead so has that happened at all in your marriage have you seen anything like

that crop up so far no crises yet but i do think actually from a personal level like like we're we do run so hard and so fast where it's like sometimes like with our mother-in-law it's like man we should just actually stop and tell her how thankful we are more because like we're always just doing stuff and like you know things like the appreciation side of feeling making people people feel appreciated we can overlook I would say we're guilty of for sure I do think too we both having come from like the professional athletic background I think we both kind of went really hard on like our numbers and our tendencies and learned the hard way a lot of things so when we started in our relationship we were very aware of a lot of our weaknesses and so i've tried really hard at least

every once in a while to look to sit down and look back retroactively on how things are going how to prevent mishaps i guess so okay that was really fun I really enjoyed that. And I would recommend, we'll have Susan send a link to the Intergram test. She most recommends. But I would also love to, I understand that the Enneagram is only one piece of what you do, Susan. So I would love for you to talk about other products do you have going on and more about what you do. Your book.

Yeah, your book in particular. Yes. I'm so excited. This thing has been like almost four years in the May. It's like, oh my God, please let it come out this year. It will come out this year. I think that it's either late summer, early fall. But the book is called The Leaders Playlist.

And the subtitle is How to Unleash the Power of Music and Neuroscience to Transform Your Leadership and Your Life. Now, I am fascinated by the power of music to shift state. And that's ultimately what we're looking at. there's two prongs to this book on the one hand i noticed with all the leaders i've coached over the years how their childhood wounds showed up in the workplace so whatever happened to them and again it's a little bit related to the enneagram whatever happened to you as a child is your orientation and why would one leader fly off the handle on one thing but another leader would would take that in stride and run with it. And I was fascinated by this concept that it goes way back. It's not what's

happening in the moment. I was always looking for a way, you know, change is hard. It's hard to form new habits. And I, for myself, I needed to switch a habit. And I started relying on music that got me into the emotional state that I needed to be in. And it started working for me. And so we use this concept of playlist both literally and figuratively. Figuratively is like you've got this background music running that you probably don't even realize and it has you kind of in a pattern of doing the things that you do. But you can both use music to recognize that pattern once you do the coaching work, but also to switch to a new playlist and use music to anchor that. Because music allows change or these new neural pathways in the brain, how you form habits or through these

neural pathways, it allows it to form and stick better than without. So I'm leveraging now music to help people make the transition from one state of being to another. The best way I could say for you guys, the example, because you're athletes, and I'm curious to know, did you use music in your performances, like, how did music impact you is, if you remember Phelps' face? And he, you know, he had that face. And he was using music to shift into a state that he knew he needed to be and to perform. And so that's a great example. And if Alzheimer's patients, they're, they're unresponsive. And then you put on music and they come alive. Well, why is that what's happening? And that's what the book is about. The research behind.

that and then really a process for doing this so curious to know guys did you have you used music in your before like to help you get into the state to win absolutely i mean i would always listen to music when i was competing right before competition it was always i needed to keep my heart rate as low as possible before i got into the arena otherwise i would exert too much energy to where I would be fatigued so I would listen to the calmest music I could find what was the song the one is cheesy yeah I was a 16 year old kid yeah it was have a little faith in me by mandy more yeah um from the soundtrack of a walk to remember anyways I was a child um and then right before it got time to compete I would listen to like anything that got me excited and just got me like moving

Got my heart rate higher. So back then it was Lady Gaga. I think I was similar in the sense that I listened to music that was the opposite energy of like where I was at. So if I was super focused, I would when necessary, listen to super hyped up music just to kind of balance myself out. But then like Sean, right before a game where I had so much adrenaline and energy, I would listen to more mellow music to kind of chill me out a little bit. I'm pumped for this book. I can't wait. You said summer, fall?

Yes, probably early fall. Okay. Most likely. Yeah. Wow. And we'll help you create the play. I created a playlist called the Empowerment Playlist. It really helped.

So, yeah, it's very excited. Well, this was fun, Susan. I'm curious. Is there anything that we have overlooked in our time together that you would like to share? I don't think so. I just encourage people to, here's a simple thing. that you can do is I've put together a little quiz that looks at, again, looking at where's a roadblock that might be getting in your way. And I'd love your feedback on it too, but it's a free

quiz. Seven questions doesn't take very long. You just go to susendrum.com, S-U-S-A-N-D-R-U-M-M-S-U-M-S-C-S-C-S-S-S-S-S-C-S-S-C-S-K-S-E-S-S-K-S-E-S-E-S-E-S-E-E-R-E-R-E-R-S-E, and you can take the results and give us some feedback. We're constantly refining it, but I think it's a great way to open the door to doing some of this work. I love that. This was really fun. I appreciate this. This is. This is one of my favorites. It is. I think we could have talked to you for hours. Yeah. And I wish we had better internet connection. I don't know what's happening today. Yeah. Well, the cables are all coming now. Yeah. Anyway, we will link for those listening and interested all of Susan's information, including to her Maritage Leadership Group, to her website, the quiz that she just mentioned, and when applicable, the book.

So, Susan, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much for getting us the time, and we look forward to connecting in the future. Sounds great. Thanks for allowing me to work with you both in this way. It's really fun. Special. Of course. Thank you, Susan.

Thank you. Thank you.