Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 131 overthinking with jon and jenny acuff

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

We loved this week’s episode with the hilarious Jon and Jenny Acuff! Jon is a New York Times bestselling author of SEVEN books, so we definitely learned a lot from him and his wife! We can’t wait for you to hear!  This podcast is sponsored by Athletic Greens ▶ Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/eastfam. Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ttp://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway, to the mountains, or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic. With over 4,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make the most of your getaway. Wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Book direct and save at bestwestern.com. What's up, everybody. Welcome back to a couple things with Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. Today we have John and Jenny Acuff. That's right. John Acuff has written seven books. Yes. One of which is soundtracks, which I'm in the middle of and I am obsessed with. Soundtracks is his newest book. And his previous books have been New York Times bestselling. They've been Wall Street Journal bestselling. He's written a lot of books that we've read over the years. And John is known for his humor, his honesty and his hope. But I got to be honest.

with you, babe, as impressed as I am with John, his wife, Jenny, was dropping some bombs of wisdom. She is a very wise woman. At the end of this conversation, we all about begged them to be our new best friends. Yeah. I want them. I want to live with them. I want to live with them. Okay, interesting. We did actually ask them to be our friends and mentors. And I think you will also take something away from this interview. Would love to hear what that is in the comments or reply to us on DM. whatever your vibe is, but we talked about a lot of things, including the issue that we've kind of been presented with. John is a self-help author. And there's a lot of kind of paradoxes or interesting things to maneuver in that realm of giving people advice. You kind of have to live up to

it yourself. And so to hear how him and Jenny navigate that themselves. And navigate it with their kids. Yes, super interesting. And to hear how Jenny keeps John in check. Dude, It was great. And vice versa. Their dynamic is amazing. They're very open to pointing out their mistakes and working from them. But it was truly one of my favorite conversations. Yeah.

And we have maintained our friendship with them. I asked John, I don't know if this is a bad thing to do to ask an author what books he recommends. Because, you know, he'd be like mine. His books. But he has recommended several books that I've already read and I've enjoyed them. But my recommendation for a book for you to listen to would be Soundtracks by John Acuff. just about how you can change the soundtracks that you tell yourself on a daily basis and how that can change your life that's right and you'll learn more about that in the episode

but if you want to learn more about john and jenny will link information for them down below and without further ado we bring you john and jenny acuff john and jenny thank you so much for joining us thanks for having us i i think you and shan have actually done a speaking event at cross point maybe together yeah yeah yeah oh back with B. Bryce in the squad and Pastor Pete. Yeah, one of my most embarrassing moments in my life. What happened? Did you say Cusford on stage?

No. At church? Why did you do that? No. In Jesus's house? It was, I was being interviewed by Pete Wilson, and it was, like, the first time I had done anything, like, on a church stage. So I felt just more pressure to, like, answer things right. I think I was, like, 20 years old.

I don't know. And they asked me something about success. And instead of saying success, I said sex. Oh, jeez. And then, of course, Pete ran with it. And he, oh, my gosh, I was mortified. Wow. Yeah.

That's your shining moment. Lee Bryce sitting outside just laughing at me. So funny. Like, this is great. Thanks for it. And then your brain's stuck on it. Oh, yeah. So then I was terrified even, every question he asked from then on, it was like, tell me more about success.

And I was like, oh, gosh. I'm excited to have you on because, John, you create so much content. You have your podcast. Is this your seventh book? Seventh book, yeah. Insane. What we love about our show, is that weird to say, is you have all this amazing content, but I feel like a lot of it is kind of business rooted, career rooted.

A large part as I've grown and matured of any career is like your marriage and the supporting cast that you have in so many ways. So Jenny, who you say is the most in demand and best part of your content is here. So thank you, Jenny. rarest rare there's a unicorn in the room like 100% that's why it's in demand because it's rare yeah no but also i'll say something you said and people will be like when will jenny write her book like well because i it's for you to know like i have like these haters did it and she'll say you don't have haters like there's not people actively thinking about hating you you you say that to feel better about your platform you're that's an ego statement when you say haters no one right now

in Iowa is like, that John Aikoff, I woke up on Tuesday, and she's like, that's you being arrogant. It's a subtle form of arrogance. I'll be like, dang it, she's right. She's right. I don't actively have a huge group of haters. Yeah. Like, that's me being arrogant.

I'll go, oh, yeah. Like, I should listen to that. So she'll say stuff like that, and then I'll post it and people will be like, dang it. That was like, well, Jenny, please come up in front of the mic and share that. Do you help it all in writing the books? No, but I mean, I would say that I'm your. writing partner with BFA. She keeps them honest. So if I'll, wow, there, she'll come in after reading a draft and go, hey, do you want compliments or feedback? That's also. You know, it depends. That's a fair

question. Yeah. It's a fair question and creative work. Yeah. Because if it's too early in the process, I just need her to be like, you can do it. Keep going to work out. But if it's later in the process, I need her to be like, this story was fake. This story is designed to make you look good, but doesn't help the reader. And ultimately, you're not writing a diary, you're writing a book so it needs to help the reader where's the reader in this or where's your voice in this or you're trying to be like foe donnell miller or foe you know jim collins and i'm a sucky jim collins like i'm a pretty decent john a cuff i'm stuck at being everybody else and so jenny as somebody i've been married to for 21 years can go oh yeah i see what you did there that's like oh you're

like that's not you that's not you that's you playing a role or you're trying to be a serious author or whatever it is you've stepped out of your voice come back to your voice That's actually something that's, I think, happens a lot in marriage. When you're around other people, you start taking on different roles and different characters without even thinking. So, like, the accountability factor of having both of you guys be like, wait, I actually don't know who this is in my household right now. Like, you're acting different. We've actually had conversations before about people we're surrounding ourselves with and seeing each other kind of morph into people that we don't think fits our character. Do you find that in trying to create characters of books and, like, stories?

that sometimes you have to say, like, Jenny, you have to be like, actually, I think you're going a little too far in kind of creating a story for yourself that it's affecting home life. I think, well, like in his work, he sometimes has to play different roles to do the different things he has to do that seem a little weird to me as his spouse. Like when he has to, like, do a book signing line, he has to do a role that is outside of his natural personality.

I'm more introverted than an. book sign but if there's a hundred people that when I book signed I'm not going to be introverted like that would be jerky yeah yeah so I don't want to I don't really like to watch him have to do that role because it's so outside of his natural personality or if I'm on stage I'm bigger than like the jokes are bigger like because you're filling the room and so I think there's things like that but I think more as far as like friendships and stuff like that there'll be times you'll be like hey like I have really I don't I won't say the word I have really bad jerk radar.

Like if somebody's a jerk, I'm like, I'd love to hang out with that person. And Jenny's like, that person is terrible. Yeah. Like, you know, so like, if we meet, if we're at a party and we meet the same people on the drive home, I'll be like, man, I really liked Boris. You have to use things like that because then a friend won't go, well, I heard your podcast. So I don't know what he Boris is, so we're good. But I'll be like, Boris was amazing.

She'd be like, Boris was the worst. Yeah. The only person in the room, I was like, oh. Yeah, well, I'm like, I could say. So, like, we do talk about that where you'll go, hey, that's not a good influence. And I'll be like, I thought he was the best influence. You wear so much cologne?

Like, I'll just be, like, I'll pick the worst person. So I don't have great discernment that way, and I would say that you have great discernment that way. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex.

Presale tickets for future events subject to availability and vary by race. and conditions apply. Learn more at mx.ca slash yanex. Do you classify your books and content as coaching? Yeah, it's self-help personal development. So, I mean, I try to find a problem that I'm curious about that I think other people might have to. So with soundtracks, it was about overthinking.

So I'm an overthinker. And so I was like, I wonder if other people overthink too. And so this Ph.D at MTSU, he and I asked 10,000 people they struggle with overthinking. and 99.5% said yes. So once I find an issue that I'm like, I want to get better at this in my life, wow, other people need it. And then I look for the marketplace and go,

is there a place for me to have a voice here? And so when I looked at overthinking, everybody would be like, stop it, stop it, just stop it. And I was like, why would I ever turn off this amazing thinking gift I've been given? What if I just used it for good? Like, could I train my mindset to actually be forming out against me? And could I do it with humor? Like, it's hard to find a book that's funny about overthinking.

And so that's how I think about problems And so with Jenny and I, the writing process Like we're working on the next book deal I'll come down and go, hey, here's these five things I'm thinking about, which one do you think resonates Which one do you think? And so from the beginning all the way through The editing process, she's kind of impacting

Like, hey, be careful about this Or I think this is interesting Or now you've got the idea Because I'll come down The first hundred hours of writing a book I'll be like, I got it, I got the book And she's like, it's never It's not even a hundred hours

a hundred hours it'll take me i know the process now because i treat creativity like work like now i've got it dialed in it takes me 500 to 700 hours to write a book so the first 100 hours i have five different books and i'm like this is the one like it's about cats and then like hour 1001 i'm like cats are stupid why did i think that so we've learned that process well and books you know it's an industry that is not like what life is like now still I mean, like you write a book and it hits the marketplace maybe 18 months to two years later. So you have to sort of anticipate in some way where culture's going. Where's culture going?

What are people? And like with soundtracks, the fortunate accident was we did the research study in 2019 and then the pandemic hit and now everybody's overthinking even more. Because every, like the joke I do is for the first 99% of your life, you were amazing at the grocery store. Like you never once were like, is this an other? up aisle or a down aisle. Like, I don't want to get shamed by my neighbors.

I better, is this an up aisle, chip aisle, or down? But now every part of your life has extra thought. And so the book was accidentally well-time to go, hey, as we all overthink, here's a book about overthinking. Maybe this will. So yeah, but we are trying to anticipate that. You're trying to anticipate a little bit, you know, like where you see culture going. How did you get into writing?

I wanted to be a writer since, like, third grade. I had a teacher, Mrs. Harris, at Doyan Elementary School in I, switch Massachusetts we were our mascot was the clams which is super intimidating like you see a clam coming you yeah you have it most seven weeks to get out of the way like and so she laminated a book of poems I wrote and I felt like a writer and then jenny and I met in the journalism department of sanford university so I was I was writing advertising my dad's a pastor so I grew up around a communicator and so that was kind of what what started it then I was in advertising for a while And then one of the things, I would say one of the best conversations we've ever had

was when I had plateaued in my career and Jenny was able to see it earlier than I was and she was like, hey, you're 32. Like this is real early to hit a ceiling like we have to figure out something. And that's when I started freelancing, blogging, building an online platform. But I wouldn't have done that unless Jenny had been able to go, hey, you're at the top of this little ladder and there's nowhere else to go. So we got to get creative. well there was places for you to go but it wasn't things you wanted to do like he was a he worked

corporately as a writer for a bunch of different big brands but you didn't want to be like a creative director I didn't want to be a creative director and so I was a senior content designer and there was no super duper senior content so that's when like I started really going okay what can I do on the side can I write can I blog and but you saw it before I did yeah because you know like in your 20s and 30s you're just building and trying to figure out work in and of itself how do you have that gentle intervention of as a spouse seeing more potential in your spouse and having to communicate that that's a good question i can't wait for this answer i don't i mean i don't know i think you have to know what what's possible you have to believe what

they're capable of and when you know what they're capable of you've got to ask them to go there and i think that you got stuck you was you know he was a young man and young men get stuck. And I think some of that was about like, hey, I know your dreams are bigger than where this is right now. So we're going to find some other way to get there. Well, and so here's a practical example of that. So at the time, I was getting up at like 5 a.m. to write a blog. We had children the age of your children at the time.

Three-year-old, one-year-old. Small group, so, so busy. So Jenny was like, hey, you got a book deal. And it wasn't a lot of them. It was $30,000. which at the end of agent taxes was $13,000. And people would be like, you're going to quit your job now and you got that book deal.

As if you won a $13,000 lottery and they'd be like, you want $13,000, you move to Mexico? Oh, so sweet. I mean, it's awesome. We were able to go to Disney World for the first time. Like, we didn't have to camp at Disney World, like, outside the fence. Like, so. But breaking that down to you said it takes 500 to 700 hours of what.

Oh, it's very low pay. Oh, yeah. Oh, like, it was I could dance. outside your house for the people, like, for that book. But so Jenny was like, look, here's my deal. Like, I'll take care of the kids on Mondays. You've got small group, a men's group that Monday night. Instead of coming home, go to a Burger King, crush on that book.

I'll take care of the kids that day if you'll be committed to writing that book three hours before the. So she made a compromise. And so she was like, by the way, it's not go goof off. Like, you better be crushing at that Burger King, which is the joke I always do when people are like, do you need a writing cabin? I'm like, well, I wrote my first book in a Burger King. Yeah. And not like one of the fancy ones you're probably thinking. This is like before Wi-Fi. Before Wi-Fi. Like I think about those Burger King employees being like, this dude is in here

a long, because nobody offices at Burger King. No. And so, but that was an example of her going, I think that you can do a good job on this book. I'll create space if you'll honor that space by putting in hard work. We always talk about like, it's easy for spouses to support actions. It's hard for them to support words. and so there's a lot of times in marriage where the spouse that's a dreamer is like ah here's all these things we're going to do there's no action and it's really hard for a spouse to tie their belief to a word versus wow he's watching less TV he's getting up at 5 a.m. He's doing all the things that he's making sacrifices of his own time, not our time.

I don't win any points if I say to Jenny I want to be a writer so on Saturday if you'll just take care of the kids all day I'm going to focus on that. I win a lot more points if I'm up at 5 a.m. and I'm crushing before the house wakes up because I've got something I believe in. So I think there was a lot of little things like that that we did together. You know, that's just about growing up

and having to like realize like, oh, these little humans that we love take my best time and I'm going to have to go find other time. Does the self-help category ever have conflict within your home? And I mean that in saying, I feel like we've interviewed therapy, and stuff before where when your job is to coach the world,

it can sometimes be a double-edged sword when you come home because it's like, oh, well, you wrote this to the world, but yet you're not living it in the house life. Oh, like the kids have called me out on stuff. Like they'll go, if I, because one of the principles we studied in this book, finish was about how do you go from being a chronic starter into a consistent finisher?

Because everybody starts and they don't finish. And one of the things we found out was people overestimate what they can get done because of planning fallacy. And so, like, you'll meet people that'll go, I'm going to run, like, I'm going to get into running. And they're going to go, oh, that's great. What are you going to do? And they're like, I'm going to do a marathon next week.

I'm going to do the Iron Man. And they're like, have you, like, what if you did a 1K? What have we started there? Like, and so we, this principle is cut your goals in half. Like, cut it in half, grow them. And so any time that I'm like, I'm going to do this huge thing, one of my kids will be like, maybe you should cut that in half. Seems like a little bit more than you can do.

And then we wrote the, My daughters and I wrote a book, Soundtracks for Teenagers book called Your New Playlist, because so many parents came out of the woodwork after this one came out and said, is there one for teens? Because if I could have learned how to change my mindset at 14, would have the whole arc of my life.

And I didn't have one. And I knew if I wrote it, it would be like, hello, fellow youths. Like, I didn't mean to be so lit. Like, you guys like scooters more than skateboards. That's cool. Like, and so they wrote it. And so now even more so the idea of like,

hey, that's a broken soundtrack or, hey, I think we need to be careful about that. They've taken that on. But I think they, like, we will, we do talk about these ideas a lot. And if I'm not living up to one of them, they'll go like, hey, that thing you said, like, here's what you're doing. Like, Ellie called me out the other day, our oldest, we met this guy in this mountain town. We were visiting that he owns a clothing shop and I was fascinated by him. He's a clothea, which I was like, I need a clothing.

Like, I need to know at least one clothea. Didn't even know that was a word. Yeah, exactly. And so I was like, I'm going to be in. Yeah, it was on his business card. And he was amazing. So fascinating to me. And so I said, I'm going to DM him on Instagram.

And my oldest daughter immediately was like, the only reason you'll DM him versus like all the number in his business card is you want him to know you're verified and have a lot of followers. So that's why you're doing it that way. And I was like, but she's not wrong. No, she wasn't wrong. She was 100% right. Yeah. I was like, oh, wow, you're right.

That's an ego play. And so I think we're, we're all. trying to, you know, have honest conversations in our house. But I don't think the self-help, they look it as my job. It's just what, I mean, it's, you know, whatever your dad does. Yeah. But it's also super powerful for your kids when you're constantly trying to better yourself and your family and your lifestyle, they're learning that firsthand.

Just to even be able to call that out and be like, no, don't use your followers for it. Yeah. I teach as a teenager a lot of incredible life lessons. We talk about a lot. I mean, that's a running conversation, especially. soundtracks because it's been an easy handle of an idea. So like if my youngest daughter says I'll never get good at geometry, we go, remember, absolutes are usually a broken soundtrack. So if you say I'm the only one who didn't get invited to the party, I'll never get better at this thing. I'm

the worst in the grade. Oh, absolutes. Might not be true. Let's unpack that. You also wouldn't say that to your friend. So why would you say it to yourself? Yeah. So we'll do stuff like that where they're going, oh yeah, okay, that's, that makes sense. And it, it's hard being a teenager. So it's helpful, I think, for all of us to have those conversations. This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626 horsepower twin-turbo V8 engine, the Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar Rally, the ultimate off-road challenge.

Learn more at landrover.ca. I'm so impressed and encouraged. I sometimes will look at whoever the, you know, author is and coaching i i shy away from because part of me is like in order to coach i have to extend these principles and it's like me saying i'm always doing x y z right and so for you to have jenny in your corner always checking you out and and and keeping you in your place like just i guess like humbling but also directing is so powerful and it's like i am i am i'm I look to you guys, I'm like, geez, I hope that's what, what our relationship does.

It's always, because it's tricky. Like, when you're, when people are listening to what you have to say, it's like, well, I better say some good stuff. And then all of a sudden you start saying good stuff and then it's not aligning fully. And it's like, oh my gosh, this is tension, you know. Yeah, well, she'll say, like, if I say something because it was hooky, but not true, she'll say that wasn't true. It's because it rhymes.

Because it rhymes. And we'll see pastors do that. And she'll be like, oh, that was a fun line for him to say, didn't help anybody. wasn't true. Yeah. Like, because it was sings on your... Artists will say stuff and you just go,

but what is that like? And there's so much terrible self-health love where people are like, sometimes you have to jump off the cliff and grow wings on the way down. That's not how gravity works at all. That is never how, like,

that is not, and it'll get 10,000 likes. Yeah. But it'll be like, that's too. Or Jenny will be like, if you're crying on camera, it's performance art.

Yeah. It might have been like, like honest originally, but any time, you're like, I have to get the angle right. Yeah. It's now shifted into performance art. So she'll, she'll be like, hey, I don't, I think you're performing versus actually serving.

And so, but, but it's also taken time. I would say the first X amount of years of our marriage, when you would tell me something was true, I would be grumpy. It wasn't great. It wasn't great. I would be grumpy for, like, weeks and be like, can't believe she said that. And so now I feel like part of my job as a spouse is to shorten the distance where I turn around and go, yeah, that was a good call.

that was that thing you said wasn't funny here and that's just experience like hey like we we both want the best for each other yeah yeah and i think it takes a long time to learn that in the marriage i feel like you and i would be are very similar because the whole performance thing i like i almost look for it in the world anymore i'm like is this real is it authentic or is it like people acting and there's so many actors with everything everything when it comes especially when it comes to coaching or pastors and, like, leaders of the world. It's like, oh, but you can just feel it doesn't. You're like, oh, that's not real.

But I would say, like, one of the things I say is that people who can't be questioned end up doing questionable things. So if you show me an athlete, show me a pastor, show me a CEO that fell, often you'll find that they were surrounded by people that could only be told the things they wanted to hear. And there wasn't a single person. Maybe it was the third wife that was like the upgrade wife. She's not going to rock the boat. Or he's not like the new spouse or whatever. And so that's so critical. But yeah, I don't want to sugarcoat like, you tell me something difficult.

And I say, thank you for that bird vitamin. That was amazing. And we make out. That's not real. That wouldn't be real. Like there's, we go. No, but we are also in our 40s. So we are much better at that than we were when we were 28.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. We wouldn't be on this couch at 28. No. Like, no way. I mean, we're still working through it. We're in the early stages of working through that.

Yeah, it's hard. You know, that part is hard. I remember we went to counseling. Remember what I think it was Jeff Pipe said to us? He was like, this is early on. He was like, John and Jenny, you both have tremendous insight into John. And that was his kind of way you're saying, like, John, shut up. You're not creating space for Jenny to be fully hurt.

Yeah. And have a full active, because I was doing all the talking. And so we're also the byproduct of like working on counseling. Yeah. Mm-hmm, you know. And two decades. Every couple, we're huge advocates of that. We think you should go to counseling before anything is wrong.

Yeah, why wait for an emergency? Yeah. Like, just get, I mean, you didn't, in the Olympics, you weren't like, I'm in the Olympics now, I better find a coach. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you're in Iowa doing, I don't know, like cartwheels. Like, okay, this coach is helping me because someday, like, you didn't wait until you

really needed it. You worked with a coach your whole time. the other thing that I was so impressed by and hearing you guys interact there was I recently had a discussion with a couple married and the wife was like you know my husband's just like he's a hoarder like he's just a hoarder and I was like I was like dang there's something this relates back to soundtrack is there's something unfortunate about like I kind of I kind of view all qualities as being on a range Right? On the spectrum. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, okay, it's kind of, it's not very generous to apply the extreme version of whatever quality to your spouse. But to hear how you recognize, like, I'm sure John has fault.

We all do. I'm not sure. You know, I can't see him, John. Your skin is great. You're actually drying out a little bit. For those who are watching, if you've seen sweat drop, the AC. broke so I have a towel next. I've just been bringing it fire. You have nothing to do it.

She just can't do it. Straight fire. But it seems like and actually this is a lesson I've been trying to learn in our marriage six years in. Like sure, Sean doesn't do a lot of things that I want her to do and she does a lot of things that I don't like her to do. What if I started like focusing? Like what?

What if I focused more on, I don't know, the aspirational Sean and. like pushing her towards that as opposed to just hounding on like you're a hoarder and that's what you are you know it's like i don't know there's some generosity that needs to be said both with yourself talk as you were as you were discussing earlier but also like i think extending that into your significant other and your spouse like be generous with your soundtracks that you're playing well you can't keep score no there's no score like you you know i mean if you keep score then you always make it so you win and that means your spouse loses yeah that's a huge principle for us.

Yeah, you just can't keep, you know, you can't keep, like, I unloaded the dishwasher, or he did, and you can't do that kind of thinking. Yeah. It just, it'll destroy your marriage. Because then, yeah, and we joke with our kids that. We've taught our kids that principle because, like, if we say to them, hey, we want you to unload the dishwasher, it'll be like, and you'll go, you don't want to score me. Like, you don't want to step into the arena with me on who's unloaded the dishwasher

that's what you're trying to, like, let's not keep score. I win. I win. Like, if I ask you to make dinner and you go, oh, like, you don't want to do the dinner game, because I'm going to crush you. Like I'm Michael Jordan at dinners. And so I think not keeping score is a big part of it. But also like not, yeah, we don't do a lot of labeling. No.

Because it's not helpful. And it ends up being an excuse for bad behavior too. Like, oh, that's just my identity. And where it's like, no, like it might be something you deal with or you're working on. But if you say I'm this, then it's like I'm determined to be that. And there's no growth in that. So we're kind of like, like, we're. There's the growth in that.

Yeah. Like, we wouldn't say, oh, you're so messy. Like, you know, because then,

like, then that's become sort of like, it becomes a role. That becomes a rule. And, and so we're kind of always, yeah, we talk about that a lot,

but I would just say there's not a ton of labeling. But don't keep score. Don't keep score. Yeah. Dang. Nobody wins. I'm sorry.

No. Well, I want to soundtracks is so powerful. We're there. In the, I guess, the hoarding example like on the one side yeah sure I probably have some of that in me but if the opposite of hoarding is like let's just say minimalism you could just you could say hey my spouse is a

minimalist in training you know like and to see them that way but anyway uh this book soundtracks the thesis resonates so well with me because I graduated from Vanderbilt was like the number one rated recruit for long snapping going into the NFL which doesn't mean much, to be honest with you. Long snappers, it's a, you know, it's kind of an ambiguous. Still the NFL. Exactly. That's what I say.

It's not the CFL. As John says, like, it's real hard to, when you get on a field and try to kick anything, you're like, no. Everybody, it's one of those positions where people like, oh, I could probably. No, you can't. Like, no, you can't do it alone in a stadium, never mind any degree of, like, stop it. You're an accountant. Pump to Bricks.

I showed up the Kansas City that. literally i've long snapped at this point for 20 years of my life showed up and like overthinking literally my my perspective went from like you know enjoying the process enjoying the teammates like just going along and enjoying the ride to literally my soundtrack was like the smallest possible loop of me being like you're you're not good enough you don't belong here you're gonna mess you're gonna find out and i dude i i i long my performance and the NFL that first year was as poor as like when I was in middle school it was like crazy I literally just I like I just went backwards regressed thank you my gosh it was crazy but it was actually wild

to witness as a spouse thing because we were newly married and trying to figure out a role as a spouse in that position because I had already had my entire gymnastics career and I had gone through all of these like overthinkings and like mental blocks and I had those but witnessing it firsthand is so humbling because as a spouse I didn't know whether to take on a coaching role of like dude you're messing this up like like tough love oh yeah slowly walking yeah not what he needed but or take on the spouse role of just supporting and loving and reassuring him of like you're in the right place for a reason. People didn't misjudge you

or your talent or whatever. But funny anecdote from then was up until this point in his career, he had a very traditional system of how he went about his daily routines and snapping. And I remember you walked into camp and you called me one day

and you're like, I need gloves. I need gloves. My hands are too sweaty. I'm going to like slip with the ball. And I was like, what is it? What? It's like you've never snapped with gloves in your entire life.

What? And I saw like a picture from training camp. He had gloves on. And he said your snaps were all messed up in the back of my head. I'm like, babe, what are you doing? Yeah. And then he was trying to figure out chalk situations and like all these things. But to see that and to witness just how debilitating, overthinking can be,

instead of relaxing your mind and like using it the proper way, it was really fascinating to watch you like have to go through that whole journey of figuring it out. because when you when you made it into the NFL I remember you even saying I just don't think anymore I go out there and I have confidence my ability and I have fun with it I just

soundtrack change yeah yeah you can get protein at home or a protein latte at Tim's no powders no blenders no shakers starting at 17 grams per medium latte Tim's new protein lattes protein without all the work at participating restaurants in Canada

Well, and part of it, I mean, what I've learned for me anyway is that I don't need to hype anything up. I'm already at a 10. Like, I'm already, like, I live at a 10. So I never in life need to hype anything bigger than it is because then I start overthinking. So, like, and Jenny, we talked about this like last week because I have a really big speaking event. See, he was about to say a different word and changed it. What was he going to say? Huge.

Yeah, yeah. Or the big. The big. I love this. No, no, no, don't stop saying it's the biggest of you. your career. She said last week, it won't save you or break you. Either of those two extremes is going to happen. Go do your job. Go to your job. It's an event. And so if I end up overhyping stuff, then overthinking starts. But if I go, okay, it's a 30 minute keynote. I've done a thousand

of those. I love those. Like, if I can tell myself the truth about the situation. I'm really, I'm experienced at this. I'm good at this. I know. I like, I love it. Like, it's my favorite space to be. I work the entire year to get to be on 50 stages a year. And so if I do that versus Ron Howard's going to be there, Bob Iger's going to, like, if I do that, forget it. Like that's just fuel on the overthinking fire. So now, but I think the key is the older you get, the faster you get it recognizing the moments coming up where that's a possibility.

So like transition moments. So, okay, now our kid's going to kindergarten. And Jenny's really good at going, no, don't mourn when your kid goes to kindergarten, celebrate that they are because that's what you want to happen. The alternative is what you should mourn, that your kid didn't get to go to kindergarten. And then, like, the weird thing with parenting is, if you weep while you're putting your kid on the bus,

what does that tell your kid? Because the saddest thing for a kid is to see their parents sad and them go, I'm doing this. I must make my mom, I'm making my mom weep right now in a thing I thought I was supposed to be excited about. And you go, wow, and you're a little six-year-old going, I'm so sorry, I hurt my mom that way. And then that changes their first day.

And as a parent, you're like, no, I didn't think about that so you're really good at going hey there's a transition moment coming up like well but y'all have learned like gloves you know like you learn over time the things that indicate how your spouse is maybe heading in the direction that isn't changing your routine was a signal so now if something big was coming up and he changed his routine you go it feels like a gloves move yeah and you would go oh that's the joy of being married for a long time is that you develop shorthand to go hey I think this feels like gloves and you go, you're right. This is the new version of gloves.

What am I doing? And if you'll listen to each other and grow with each other, you develop this shared language. And it shortens that you don't have to get that far before you're like, he doesn't have to wear the gloves for two weeks. Like he can, on his way to the store, be like, oh, you're right. He's right. These are, I don't need these gloves.

What am I doing? And then you just continue to iterate. We were speaking off camera when everything got too hot, that you guys are two years out of. empty nesters. Yeah. Have you noticed any overthinking going into that or nerves? I've had more like, oh.

Well, I mean, I think I've got that same soundtrack in that we, like, this is what we, this was our goal, you know, to produce happy, healthy, balanced adults. Old cup kids, yeah. But adults, like we, I mean, like, they're awesome as kids, but the goal is to make them functional adults. That's one of our soundtracks. Yeah. We're not raising kids.

We're raising adults. So, like, but I would say my overthinking is like, oh, this is the drama of like, oh, the last time we'll go to Sonic. You know, like, anytime I'm adding extra. They come back. They come back. And Jenny, so Jenny would say, hey, remember her good friend that's at Sanford? We saw her six times this fall. She came back six times.

Yeah. Ellie's not getting on the Titanic. You know what I mean? So like, I'm like, okay, that's. So, yeah, we've talked about that. And just trying to figure out what's the next stage look like and how. How do we, you know, a family of three for, you know, a couple years with McRae. What does that look like?

Well, I think some of it is that we're more experienced so we can recognize ahead of time when, like, the wind is about to change. And, like, the winds are going to blow from the west instead of the east or whatever. And, like, we kind of know that that's coming in a good way. And, you know, kind of get to look and say, like, oh, I wonder what that's going to be like next. Yeah. Dang. I'm continually humbled by, in parenting, this fine line you have to walk between, like, enjoying the moment and recognizing that it really is a once-in-a-lifetime experience, like sending your kid off to kindergarten. Sure.

But on the other hand, having the, I guess it's a type of courage to, like, to not weep, you know? It's like, all right, no, this is. Well, courage to know that they're prepared. Yeah. And they're ready. them be the star of the moment yeah like that's the other thing like it's real easy for parents to step in and be like you can play a cameo in my launching into kindergarten you're like well that's the person going to kindergarten like you're not like you already went you already did your kindergarten like

let this little dude this little girl be the star but but i but i would say like that's one of the things we talk about a lot is like and i put this story in soundtracks one of the best things jenny ever told me was when i was traveling for work i went from no travel days to like 80 a year for speaking like when they were in like later elementary middle school yeah and so I would really be like I'm so sorry I'm leaving it'll be home in four sleeps like I would really make a production of it and jenny eventually was like hey she pulled me aside and was like you feel guilty and shan guilt and shame about traveling and you're asking the kids to hold it and they don't feel that because the way your brain works mirror neurons kids will mirror the motions their parents put out so what I was doing was

telling these kids I had no idea that dad traveling should be a bad thing going, hey, I want you to feel really sad right now and really upset. And you don't know when I'm coming back because you can't really keep time anyway because you're a kid. So like, I just really want to. And then I would stir them up and then I'd leave. And I'd say, here you go, Jenny. Here's some kids that are emotional mess. And they would be distraught. Yeah. And so Jenny was like, we love that you're getting to do something you love. And that's what we want to show the kids, go do your job. And the other thing is, I always tell parents, if you talk about how you hate your job for 18 years you're teaching your kids to hate their job yeah like no wonder the kid

doesn't want to get a job out of college you demonized work for 18 years and then you're surprised the kid doesn't want to go to work so she was like when you go to travel celebrate it be happy about it that's the mood we're establishing in the family and let's tie it to stuff we get to do so when we would go to disney would go remember that weekend dad was in oklahoma at that speaking event because of that We got to go to business. Like, isn't that amazing that that is connected? So connecting the pieces for your kids. So they grow up with that sense of gratitude about work,

about the stuff you get to do versus because so many business travelers, especially with, like, mom guilt, we'll go, I'm the worst mom ever. I'm so sorry I have to leave. And your kid, again, doesn't know that yet. You're teaching them shame and guilt and all these things that they're like, okay, I guess I'll hold this. I mean, I'm six, it's heavy.

And so we always, I feel like we're always unpacking stuff like that. in our own life. Yeah. The way we say it is less feelings, just do math. Oh, yeah, less feelings, more math. We said that the other day. I mean, a couple months ago, when we had a, one of our daughters had a big final,

and she was stressed out about it, and she kept trying to go feelings, and we're like, no feelings, just math. We can have all the feelings tomorrow afternoon. Like, we'll just go ahead and put them all tomorrow afternoon. Tonight, they're not helping. Like, they're actually distracting you from. Prepping for this test.

Prepping for this test. So we'll say that about a lot of things. Like, less feelings, more math. Like, let's just figure out this. Let's figure out how to do this formula. We're going to know how to do it at the end of practicing. The formula doesn't reflect on your identity. It's not who you are.

It doesn't impact who you'll meet in college. Yeah. Because your feelings would be like, let's swirl it. Yeah. And so I think Jenny's really good at, because Jenny's like this, and I'm like, up and down. And so I think that's been. Today's episode is brought to you by A.G.

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like routine one we say is we don't show up hungry what does that even mean and so when we're on a road trip if we're staying at somebody's house we eat like an hour before we get there because they're already doing us a great service by letting us stay there we don't roll in a hot mess and be like now make us dinner so it's a micro soundtrack for a macro principle of think about others and so we're trying like with our kids we try to go okay what's a soundtrack Early is on time.

Early is on time. Like, that's one that we say in our family. Like, do the hard thing first. So, like, it's such a silly principal, but in the morning, when they're getting ready for school, we'll say, don't be on your phone for the first 20 minutes. Like, enjoy the last 20 minutes on your phone, but get your shoes on, eat your breakfast, like, do the hard stuff first. Then you can enjoy the last 20 minutes.

Like, if you're ready early. If you're ready early. Like, so that's another, that's another little one that will say. A lot of them are practical. I mean, one of them that's less practical is don't be a middle camper. Like we say don't be a middle camper because when you camp, like say you camp on a ring that's on a lake, what will happen is there'll be a road, and it's a car camping, this isn't fancy. There's a road.

Like at a camp site. Yeah, camp site. Like they're always in loops. Yeah. So the outer loop is all the ones that are on the water. And then the middle loops are the middle site. Yeah. And there's no water, no access.

And those go last. Those go last, which means somebody wasn't prepared. So we're like, be prepared because we always joke like a middle camper will show up at 2 a.m. Like they're trying to set up a tent in the dark. The whole thing's a mess. We're like a little bit of prep. You get to be on a lake. Like it's the same price.

Yeah. So like we'll, that's a running one because if we see somebody doing something that's really the worst way to do it. Or the hardest. The hardest. Like a lot of people make their lives harder than they need to be. We'll go, that's such a middle camper behavior. Like let's not be middle campers. like how do we and so that's that's just a which is our shorthand for like let's just have a little bit

of four be prepared do your work like you know enjoy the results of it so yeah but we there's some that we try to personify so it's it's easy for us to be like oh yeah like on a hiking trail if somebody's wearing flip-flops yeah that's kind of a middle camper yeah well that's okay like you're gonna get blisters you didn't like or you might break your ankle right break your ankle and so like we'll be like remember don't be a middle camper so we always that's one for us that is really like no one else would get that but it's something that we joke and ellie registering for classes like you can apply it to anything where you go how do i get ahead of this and make it like as easy as possible like i want it to be as easy as possible like or always say like you know be kind

to your future self like what can you do today that makes your future self so grateful like so happy they're like oh i'm so glad that last week jenny did this work so that this week jenny gets the benefit it's like when you buy an extra um role of toilet paper so that when you're out you're like oh look I already bought more yeah I hook myself up so we'll be like oh take care of your future self like because it's the only one you have so we say stuff like that wow uh it seems like you guys are so good at tagging events that could cause a lot of friction between you and your daughters or your marriage with like analogies that kind of break the ice and tension a little bit like instead of saying you're not prepared for this you're

like don't be a middle camper yeah that's powerful I don't do that at all. I need to take a lesson. Well, we need handles. I think we always talk about, like, you need sticky handles. Like something, like, if a basket's easier to use it as a handle. Yeah. So something that you can pick it up and take it with you with.

Yeah, so we try to put handles. Without it being, like, super, like, it's going to, like, label you. Yeah, or super dramatic. Like, we need to have a come to Jesus moment for an hour and have an intervention about this idea. It's like, no, just don't be a middle camper. Like, one of the ones we're saying right now, it's fairly new, is that's an unforced error.

Like, that's an unforced error. Like, the way you were doing that. So last night, this is fresher than fresh. It's real life. So my oldest daughter wanted to go kayaking with her friends. This morning. This morning. But we were going to be here.

We were going to be here. We're like, you can't use the trailer. Like, it's super hard. And so we bought kayak racks. And last night, we were setting them up on the car. And there was no way they weren't going to fall off and kill somebody in Hills. Well, I mean, we could get them on. Barely.

With ratchets. And like, a night. Or an 18-year-old, you're like, good luck with some ratchets, some wet kayaks. And getting it back up on the roof of the car. So I said last night, this feels like a massive unforced error. And she's like, it really is. And so we said, hey, we'll take you on Sunday. We'll manage the trailer.

Like, let's not have an unforced error. Because there's a lot of times in life, again, where you're making it harder than it needs to be. And you go, let's pause for a second. Is this an unforced error? And you go, that's not a good one. let's do it a smarter way we said that last night yeah and she didn't go kayaking and she said okay that's great i'll go sunday and because i could we could just tell this is going to be a disaster and it didn't need to be yeah she wasn't kayaking to save orphans yeah like it wasn't she was

kayaking to get diabetes medicine like it was just a funny silly kayak thing so we talk about stuff like that wow i've learned so much so many things that we need to like start working on as well Well, you guys are young. I mean, I have very gray hair, like mid-40s. You got great hair, man. I mean, I started at like a week, like a, when did I go gray? Like, 10 years ago? As I said, Andrews probably got a year or two, and he'll be the same way.

Is your dad gray? Yeah. My dad looks like Anderson Cooper. He's like whiter than white. That's his dad as well. Yeah, but when I met his dad, which he was your age when I met your dad, I would have thought his hair was super gray then, but it was this color now. You know, so there's more to go.

Yeah, there is. Yeah, but dude, when a dude dyes his hair, you can tell. Like, it looks so obvious. Like, it looks like Magnum P.I's mustache. Like, that is. So I'll never. My kids, our kids would kill me. Like, they're like, please don't dance on TikTok.

Like, what, like, I'm fine with you making reels because that's for old people. That's old people's TikTok. But please don't dance. And they're like, please don't die your hair. So if I showed up one day at dinner and I was like black, like midnight, they'd be like, oh. Is it weird for you? you like you have seven books out yeah when john's gone and the kids are here your seven books are so going to be here like the or like our version would be youtube videos or podcast episode

it's like the legacy it's it's a kind of weird thing to wrap your mind around have you put much thought into like the effect that these will have on your kids now and also in the in the future um i think it's a little weird because it's like i'm sure for you with older YouTube videos. Like, it's like moments in time. Yeah. Like, and so, like, when you go and look at a book before, you know, like, you're like, oh, that's me at 35.

So there is, it's like little bits of you that are captured and frozen in time. I think that, I think their book will be more for that. Like, with your new playlist, I think it'll be like that for them. Yeah, because the girls wrote that with them, yeah. And I think now they're like, oh, okay, books aren't impossible. You know how it is? Once you do a difficult thing, you realize, okay, there's not a ton of gatekeepers. Like, I can just try it.

Like, you can be a long snapper. Like, there's people that, there's humans that do that. I'm a human, so, you know, can I write a book? And can I start a podcast? Like, I've had Ellie on my podcast. And so that's fun to think about, like, she came on, all it takes is a goal. And we talked about being a modern teenager. And so it was on her student shadow day.

Student shadowed day. She shadowed me, and I was like, well, they were going to do a podcast. And she was like, And I made her prepare the questions. But yeah, so I guess I think about it that way, that it's fun to think that. Well, and it just feels like a mustard seed. You put stuff out. You have no idea where it's going to go or what it's going to do,

but you know it's going to do more than if you didn't put stuff out. And then you, you know, you get to, I always tell people, like, I have the exact best level of fame. Because, like, once a week, somebody will come up to me and give me a random compliment. Yeah. I like what you do for your job. I'm like, oh, thank you. Like, no accountant gets that.

Like, if you're an accountant walking down the street, nobody comes up and goes, I just want to let you know you did my tax. They're so good at numbers. Like, and so that part's fun to see people whose lives have changed and I've been encouraged. That encourages me. That's great.

Bank more on course when you switch to a Scotia Bank banking package. Learn more at scotia bank.com slash banking packages. Conditions apply. Scotia back you're richer than you think what's your background jenny you just where where do all these wisdom bombs come from what i don't know you want me to brag on you no i mean i mean i i mean i i'm a good student of the people that i love how about that oh even that's good i'm a good student of the people i love it's like a book title lifely would put that on a study a good student of the people i love but her background she has

are undergrad in photojournalism, and then her master's in construction management at Georgia Tech. Wow. So like, very few people go from photo journalism to full ride to Georgia Tech. I married a writer. That was part of it. Oh, you thought you were going to have to provide?

That's real. But I turned it around. It should go there for a while. Dude, her, can we say the dad? Sure. Okay, so when I asked her dad for her hand of marriage, he said no. and he was right like now we love each other he was right i've never like a hundred percent well john was a chump yeah or a knucklehead is that a nicer i don't know yeah so like i was going nowhere

and so like i now with my own kids i'm like i have this vision of my father-in-law who i love pulling me aside and being like when i when one of my kids might be dating and i'll go ahead and you're like we'll get through this buddy yeah we got through you like it's gonna like and it and it and So, yeah, like, it's so funny to think 20 years later, like... 25 or 23, 24, yeah. So we, yeah, we love them. We bought a house that's a mile from where they live. Like, we love being part of their life now, and so to see that full circle.

But Jenny has a really interesting background that I think conforms a lot of the way you think. Yeah. But I love that you said I had to go get a master's because I was marrying a writer. Did he say no or not yet or like, let's work on? He said kind of wait. It was blurry to me. It sounded like a note. It was the worst moment of a waffle house ever.

It was definitely not a yes. Yeah. And we joked about it now, but at the time, I didn't see the humor. He still proposed. I still proposed. I still moved on. Yeah. That's a knucklehead.

That's risky, man. I didn't know that. They never brought it up again. Like, they, once it was happening, they were like, we're full on to this. We'll support. Like, they were, so I have nothing but good things to say about, I feel like I won the in-law lottery but but to see what they were like let's see so then when things started to turn around i started to like get into my groove they must have been like oh thank goodness

jenny did good work from the back end i'm in the rough a lot of rough i had to say similar situation my dad said yes 100% and loved loved Andrew from day one but it was a similar situation where i had already like an established career so i was self-sufficient and everything and you hadn't even graduated college and my parents were kind of like okay like how does this work if you guys want to go by a house like they were just they knew the logistics of that in a marriage would be yeah would that would be hard in a marriage yeah it's just it's like that faith from like the parents are like okay is he like gonna do something like we don't know yeah you did a lot we're still waiting oh stop it okay who are some of uh who are some of your favorite

inputs for like sort of pastors or books or alley andrews yeah allie andrews is in Nashville he's brilliant and runs this counseling center called Porter's Call that's for musicians because this town is full of musicians that that need a safe place to land and he was college roommates with my dad so when I moved to Nashville he was like if you need an old man in the city I'll be that old man and so he's been a great input I mean your parents have been great inputs we both have been well you surround your yourself with marriages and couples that you like their marriage you look at people 10 years ahead and go I like the way they love each other I like where they're like that they've got plans together

yeah and like and then go be friends with them yeah and then go and then go learn like the murries I would say yeah we love hunter and Kristen and they're a couple years ahead of us not Scott and Emily are a couple years ahead of us so marriage-wise we definitely have that who would you say if I say Al Andrews who would you say I don't know it's hard for me you just oh it's You. It's me. The wisdom. Sometimes this is so silly.

If, say, like, somebody recognizes me at the airport, and when they walk away, I'll turn to dinner and be like, just think, you get to spend all day with me. That was only 10 minutes from her. What a gift. And she'll be like, ugh. And it's just running joke with my kids and my wife. I mean, I don't know. You have so many wise people in your life, friends that you're deliberate about spending time with.

Yeah, it's just, like, go, surround yourself with people that are headed in a direction is the way you want to go. And one of our handles is fruit is loud. Like the fruit of somebody's life is loud. So you can tell like, oh, they're like where they are, that's, that fruit is loud. I want that fruit too. What does it look like for me to do those things? Or be, you know, have that type of marriage or type of health or whatever kind of goal you have.

It's not, it's usually not mysterious. Can we add you guys to our list of couples? Totally. I want to meet your dog too. Now that I know you guys have a dog. Yeah. You live like 10 minutes from us. Well, so we technically have three dogs.

A lot of dogs. So downstairs, we have the Malinua and a little thing. A little thing. Lossopso-Maltese thing. She's adorable. A buzzball. And then our personal dog at home is a golden retriever. Oh, nice.

Nice. It's my parents' dog downstairs. He's like the guard dog here. Ah, I gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. But yes.

I have this hypothesis that the best self-help is marriage. I should clarify that and say that you, like, if you really need self-help, like if you have some big issues, probably don't get married. But, like, if you're on this, you know, marriage is such a powerful tool for. Oh, we talk about it, dude. We say the biggest hack is two people pushing in one direction. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah, we talk about that all the time.

And nobody talks about it. I don't, because, I mean, it's limiting, you know, like you have to have that person that wants to push in the same direction as you. but two people pushing in one direction, you can do anything. Well, I also think we live in a society and world where people are so me-focused of like, yeah, until I perfect me, then I can't go find someone. No. And you see it.

No, you've got to grow up together. Like, go raise each other. Because we even, we got married young by our friend's standards. And they were like, oh, you don't get to go live your life and do all this. And for us, it was kind of like, well, I get to do it together. I want to do it together. It makes it better. Yeah.

No, we talk about that all the time, that a marriage is like the best life hack of all time. Like a healthy, strong, supportive. There's no way I could do any of this without Jenny's input, support, like thoughts, wisdom. But you need two people pushing in the same direction. It's hard when you both are pushing in different directions, you know, important things.

But if you push it in the same direction, you can go really far. Yeah. Yeah, we talk about that all the time. Have you ever not been on that, like pushing in different directions? Have you ever been pushing in different directions? Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah.

Totally. I mean, yeah, and we fought like cats and dogs. Atlanta, yeah, Atlanta. The first couple years. I would say maybe, I don't know how many years, like six years? Five or six years. Five or six years. Yeah, I mean, but remember, like, I was working at great companies,

but I was really frustrated because I wanted the right books. Like I wanted, or I wanted to do something else, but I didn't know what it was, and I was really frustrated. And there's so many people have said, like, when you have a passion and you're not using it, you, like, you're hard to live with. You're hard to live with. Jenny said before, writers who aren't writing are hard to live with. I think that's true of anything. Like CEOs who aren't CEOs are hard to live with because you have this thing. And so, yeah, I was super frustrated, super grumpy about it.

Like, and it took years to kind of get that motion. Well, you kept thinking that it was the job, but it was helpful. Oh, yeah. That's really, I jump jobs so much being like, screw this job. This job is the problem. And I get to the next job. It's going to surprise you. Same problem showed up there. And then I was like, this is the next job. And so like, that gave Jenny whiplash. From a career perspective. Yeah, and we were young. You know, we were figuring it out. But we weren't pushing in that same direction. Well, I wasn't pushing in any direction. Because he didn't know what direction he wanted to go. It was hard for me to support him if he didn't know. know where he wanted to go. Yeah. And we've figured that out together.

Like early 30s, we figured that out. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then certain transitions get easier, even if they're challenging. We're like starting our own business nine years ago, that was challenging. Like, we left Dave Ramsey, this really established successful brand where we learned a ton and to start our own business. That was a big transition. But we knew how to handle it better this time around.

Yeah, because we knew how to push in the same direction. Yeah. marriage seven books if you were to each take one piece of advice to give to couples what would you share i think your don't keep score don't keep score is what i was going to say like yeah like you just you can't keep score like the score is a hundred on like each person should give a hundred percent like I should give a hundred percent and he should give a hundred percent not each of us give 50 like because sometimes they're not going to give any and sometimes you're not going to give any so you can't keep score I would say I would say something that well I mean and you can't

say things that you can't say like oh some things can't be some things you like you can't say things that you can't take back like like you just can't say like hurtful hurtful things ever Yeah. And we've had friends go through divorces, and that's typically how it starts, is they start saying things that can't be unheard. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I would say one of the pieces advice we got from a pastor named John Woodall was that in a marriage, there's two people. There's a how person and a wow person. Typically, yeah. Typically. And Jenny's the howl person, I'm the wow person. And so before we understood this, I'd come up with all these ideas, and then she'd ask questions about them like well how would that work how would that

partly so I could figure out how to make it happen but I would take it as an attack like why are you poking holes in this why you're saying and like it would just cause this huge you know I'm a dream snatcher yeah why you ruin this dream and so what we learned from him like this is his idea we just benefited from it was like as a wow person say up front like hey I'm not about to sell the house I'm not about to quit my job like I just want to talk with you I want to talk about this idea that I've just had and as the how person say wow for two weeks because by the end of the two weeks the wow person's going to forget they even brought it up but it like if they're still on it two weeks later

then you can go hey let's talk about some of the practical steps what can we talk about and so us learning how to be a how and that just takes maturity yeah in your marriage and but that was so clarifying for us early in our marriage like oh because what happens often is the wow person doesn't stop having those ideas they just stop sharing them with the how person and they also and go find another outlet for that and it doesn't end well so they go oh my spouse doesn't get me oh somebody else will understand these ideas and so like for us learning how to talk is a how and a wow dang that's one for me that i was like we still think about that which is her question i'm pulling it back it's a call back in radio when she says do you want compliments or feedback

that's a how versus wow question yeah hey you want me to give you my best how she's amazing at how i need the how or do you need some wow right now like where are you at in the process is it still so for us you need me to be like go for it like it's not a developed idea yet but just keep leaning into it yeah that's a huge piece of advice for us because i am 100% how i think logistically of like yeah me too like how is this going to work yeah i literally feel like are we going to eat yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and so that for us that was uh i mean and that's your role like i mean you're leading our family you need to you need to dream i need to be at battles yeah i need yeah so we but i'm in the support vehicle behind going like, I need to figure out where that vehicle needs to be next.

Yeah, there's a cliff. Like, you see the cliff, right? Are you going to break? Yeah, are you going to break or are you going to, like, drive off at Thelman Louise style? Yeah, so I think how wow. I love that. We, in our devotional this morning, the never thing, never say things can't unsay. It was a verse all about, like, essentially don't recognize.

certain thoughts like if it's a if it's a bad thought i think it was revenge was this one revenge bitterness yeah don't think it yeah or smack it down you're like yeah no yeah i'm not going to do that yeah which is so like well you don't have to entertain it like yeah that's the thing is same with stress same with worry if you think about it like an invitation you don't have to accept it so if revenge goes hey come spend an hour on this and you go i'm not going to accept that invitation i see it i'm just not going to like I don't want to give that hour. Yeah, that record of wrong.

That record of wrong doesn't. I'm not going to, I don't want that invitation. Well, honestly, too, I think talking to you guys for the past hour, your whole vibe to a certain extent is that. It's optimism. You look at all of these different things that could or would or should happen. And you're like, actually, I'm going to look at it a different way. And it's really refreshing.

Well, and you reframe a lot of things for me. So, like, I'm naturally pessimistic. Yeah. and Jenny is naturally optimistic. So there's a lot of times where I'll go, this is going to be a disaster. And she'll be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's reframe that. Like, what does it look like for us to reframe that?

So I think there's a lot of times where I get the credit for the optimism, but it's a byproduct of a conversation I've had with you. Let's just like, let's see, what's the win here? How are we going to, how is it going to be successful? Yeah, what does this look like? How do we do it? Yeah, so that's been. There's nobody coming.

nobody's coming yeah we that's another one our sound drugs like nobody's coming like if it's gonna happen we're the grownups in this story now yeah we'll say that we're the grownups like we're the grownups like we're moving somebody into college i guess we're grownups now yeah i guess we're or like when you have to pay for something like uh you know an air conditioner like is there an adult that pays for this yeah we're the landlord anymore yeah like nobody gives you credit for that because they just expect it to work yeah it's like a roof or like a crawl space and so yeah we say we're the adults a lot or that you know no one's coming what does that what does that look like for us to be adults in the situation and to take responsibility for it and all the fun that comes with

the responsibility um yeah dang well i feel like i learned so much yeah say can we be friends can we hang out more could we put you guys as our input now oh yeah totally it's super fun this is this is a blast for us like we love getting to do stuff like this we don't get to do it a lot because jenny says no well we are honored that you said yes thank you i have to trick her into podcasts i'm excited for jenny's book hopefully oh let's end with that story this is a terrible story this is a terrible thing i did let's in with it that is like frustrated jenny for 10 years so maybe 15 no it was after it was nine years ago because it was after yeah when we start our business i was like jenny needs to write a book so i did classic wow

fashion i just announced it online on the internet i was like jenny's going to write a book like 5,000 people signed up for the like an email like he made an email list yeah and so like without talking to her and i was like hey by the way i think you should write a book oh she never wanted to write a book and so now for the last nine years people will come up to jenny be like how's the book they act like she's failing to write her book and she's a get stuff done person like when she says the thing she does the thing so it drives her bonkers because people will like people have sent her mail like encouraging her to finish it and i'm and i think you will one day.

You're going to have to do it for me. Yeah, I'll ghost write it. I'm expensive too, so good luck. But that, yeah, so I just, classic was like, Jenny's going to write a book. And I was like, by the way, Jenny, I told people you're going to write a book. And for the last nine years.

Yeah. They've been asking where does that book come? You guys are the same person. Andrews sold like 7,000 subscription boxes without anybody knowing. And we didn't have any material for it or anything. The subscription box exists? No. No, it was.

We had one. Yeah. so you were fishes in loving that and then he had to like refund all these people yeah dude i get it yeah he just wanted to see it would work i was like oh my god it worked yeah yeah yeah it's a field of dreams thing if you build it it it will come i don't know what to tell you well listen i know we just scratched the surface for those listening that want to learn more about john jenny and what they're up to he's about millions of followers on social media and is doing the biggest speaking event In the world.

Doing my job. I'm doing my job on Thursday. But he has written seven books and soundtracks. It's all about how you can reframe your thought processes to really align with what you're trying to accomplish. So thank you, John and Jenny, for joining us. It's fun to meet you, and we hope to stay in touch. Yeah, thanks, guys. Thank you.