Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 133 | supporting each other through hard times with jordan lee dooley

Episode Date: September 29, 2022

In today’s episode, we were joined by the powerhouse couple the Dooleys! Jordan Lee Dooley is a national best-selling author of Embrace Your Almost and Own Your Everyday and the host of the top-rated podcast SHE. Her husband, Matt Dooley, is a former NFL long snapper turned realtor and entrepreneur. We talked about all things relationship, success, and burnout- and we think you’ll love it! This podcast is sponsored by AG1 ▶ Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1-year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/eastfam Who should we have on the podcast next? Let us know in the comments! Learn more about Jordan ▶ jordanleedooley.com @jordanleedooley Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ttp://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. dot c a slash ymx what's up everybody welcome back to couple things with Sean and Andrew the podcast all about couples and the things they go through today we have Jordan and Matt Dooley I'm really excited about this so we've known Matt Dooley for 10 15 years maybe we played the same position in football

he was a long snapper I was a long snapper kind of meshed over that and then Matt Mary Jordan who my sister actually really admires and looks up to Jordan is an author she's a podcast entrepreneur yeah she does it all and i think you're going to really like these two and also if you just listen to the podcast you don't check out our main channel we're going to be doing some house tours you might have noticed the change in scenery we're excited to bring it to you so go ahead and jump over to the east family youtube channel but without further ado let's get to it wow matt jordan this is an interview i'm excited about for several different reasons one jordan just came out the new book called embrace your almost yes freaking pumped to talk about that

My sister is a massive fan of Jordan. I know. She's going to geek out about this. Yes. And it's fun because Matt and I have known each other for like probably 10 years. Long snappers. Long snappers. The guys are a tight-knit squad.

It's true. Matt, do you remember, this is actually Sean and I's third date when this happened. You were snapping at IU and Sean and I came by a practice while you were in the stadium at IU and we met up. That was like our third, that was part of my selling point for why Sean should date me is I know cool people like you. Do you remember this? Well, happy to say I helped still. It was. Yes. That was, we, we wrote a tandem bicycle there, which I'm surprised we were still dating after that. Right. Yeah. Didn't go well. That was probably, what year with that? Do you remember? I wonder if we were 2013. 2013. Okay, that was the year we met. We met toward the end of 2013. So it might have been like

right before we met. Speaking of, how did you guys meet? Okay, you can tell the story because the way he tells it's more entertaining. So we, IU beat Penn State in football for the first time in school history back in 2013, and it was a big deal. And she followed me on Instagram because she went to high school with a couple of guys on the team and was like a big time football fan, not like a huge basketball fan. like always loved football, which is odd.

And I was, like, actually thrilled that we won because I used football team didn't win a lot back then. Jeez. So, yeah, so she followed me. I like to say that she was kind of. You and others. I was following the team out of excitement, but then he followed me back. Yeah, I followed her back, but I'll always say, like, you know,

she was, you know, throwing the net out, and I was the fish that, like, flopped him. Yeah, it was. And then we, yeah, it's been seven or eight years now, but we nine, almost nine this fall. We connected after, like, realizing we had some mutual friends and stuff and realized he lived across the street from me, which was kind of interesting. And so he was like, well, I'm just going to walk over and meet you then because we had, like, kind of cross paths and, like, known of each other and seen each other for a while at that point. So when we finally did connect and actually asked, like, where have I met you? And we realized he hadn't, he walked over, knocked on my door.

And I didn't really think he was going to come. I thought he was just, like, being a flirty football player. And so I was like, this guy is not showing up. I had just got home from the gym, like was not looking my best, not feeling my best. And my roommates are like, oh, yeah, he's totally just flirting via text. Like, he's not coming. And like, five minutes later, there's a knock at the door. And everyone's just like, and I'm like, what do I do?

Oh, my gosh. So anyways, ended up opening the door. And we talked for like four or five hours that night. We always say it was like catching up with an old friend. And that's kind of where everything started. And then when he proposed, he knocked on my door, my parents' front door when I was living with them after college again. So, yeah.

My dad said, That's really cool. I will say last corny joke about snappers. It must be someone with you snappers because he did the same thing. It was one of those like, oh, I think he's just like texting, flirting. Yeah. And I said like the same thing. You want to come over?

And he showed up. And I was like, oh my God, what do I do? Yeah. Take your shot. Right. Totally. I'm like, I've had my experience with guys before. Hi.

I had my experience with guys before who would say that kind of thing. Yeah. And I would be like, okay, whatever. And they never, or they wouldn't show up. And then at 11 p.m., they'd be like, hey, can I come over? It's like, no, you cannot. That's not what I was intending. Us sloppers, don't mess around.

That's right. Gentlemanly, the gentlemanliness. We make plays, just not in the football field. Usually not. Matt was way better than I was, side note. You said it was like catching up with an old friend. What is it that you think makes you too so compatible? I'm curious.

That's a good question. I think, you know, I think being in a college town like Bloomington, you're going to school with, you know, 40,000 other kids. I think to find somebody who has similar values as you do really, it catches your attention. It's not something that's, you know, very common. And so to really align with somebody, you know, like, this is a person I want to be around, like, at least for the short term, potentially for the long term. I knew that night I was going to marry her. I think she's still coming around to the idea. But I knew from the echo.

Yeah. I would echo that. And I also think like, you know, when you're very like minded with someone and you find yourself almost like finishing each other sentences in one of your first meetings or one of your first conversations, it's kind of, it does kind of make you be like, this is just different. And I remember, I remember when we first met, I hadn't been too long since I got out of a relationship. And so I wasn't really like super eager.

And I was kind of like, hmm, I don't know if I'm really into him because I didn't have butterflies or I didn't have like the like giddiness that I had had another experiences. But I always described it like I just had this deep piece. Like it was just almost better than having butterflies once I thought about it later. And as I like kind of reflected. But I thought maybe that meant I wasn't into it or I didn't like him. But what I think I really realized is like this. There's just something solid here. It's not giddy. It's not, you know, fireworks right away. It's just like connection. There's a foundation here that could be really solid that we could build on. So I think that was another kind of differentiator for me, too. Can you guys walk us back to, so in 2013 when you met, you guys were what year in college? I was a junior and she was a sophomore. Okay. So junior and sophomore, Jordan, had you already kind of ventured into your entrepreneur like ambitions? No. Not at all.

I was no, I had no idea what I wanted to do. This is part of the kind of a funny part of the story because I attribute a lot of what I've been doing now with like podcasting and books and everything else to him. because I was kind of like super academic. I was like, you know, just had to get straight A's. And now I look back like, why, live your life? But anyway, I was just so stressed about like having, you know, best, like high honors and everything else. And he was a college athlete and he had taken up guitar kind of as a creative outlet. And that was kind of his like release just in being a high, in a high stress situation.

And it was my junior, end of my junior year going into the summer before senior year. And he was like, you know, you need like a creative outlet. And at the time, I had been doing a lot of, like, hand lettering and doodling. And it was, like, how I was remembering. I was just doing a lot of creative stuff. And he's like, maybe you should, like, start an Etsy shop. And I remember thinking, like, dang, for a football player, like, it's a pretty artsy thing to know about, but cool.

Like, and at the time, like, that was, I wasn't even super familiar with what Etsy was. So I was kind of like, how do you even know what that is? So I started looking into it and kind of just started it as a hobby. But I think what he didn't know about me at the time is I'm really bad at having hobbies. Like anything I like, I turned into like a business. And so within a year, it was like a full-blown, like, by my senior year, I was, like, paying my roommates in pizza to help me, like, package and ship all of these items out of my Etsy store closet. And that's kind of how everything got started on the internet and just started growing from there. But kind of rewinds back to him suggesting I'd take up a hobby and it turned into a lot more than a hobby.

That's amazing. So Soul Scripts and Owners Academy, which of those came first? Soul scripts came first. That was the Etsy store. Yeah. That was actually what the Etsy store started as. And then that kind of evolved and really exploded, especially among, like, college women. Because right after I graduated, I went and started to speak on college campuses.

And we started a sweatshirt line that just exploded. And so that's kind of where everything was birthed out of. And then it just all kind of evolved from there. And then we added Owned Academy a few years later. And it's just kind of continued. And then two more time. I'm questions just before we branch into, like, deeper topics. So when you guys graduated, how soon after or had you already been married?

So he graduated 2015. I graduated 2016. He proposed the summer before my senior year. We were engaged for 14 months, and then we got married in September of 2016. So I had only been out of school for like three months at that point, and he had been on school for about a year. So then my question is, that sounds like a lot is happening at the same time. So you guys are graduating, engaged, married, your business starts taking off, and then,

Matt, you're headed into the NFL. Yeah. So I had actually, so I graduated. the same year as Andrew. And I didn't get signed that first year. I just did minicamp with Steelers. And so that was the summer that I went home. I trained for a little bit, flew out, proposed to her.

Used all the money he had left. Yeah. And then I ended up moving out to Indiana full-time that fall, got a job working for a medical device company. Did that for five months, then got a call from the Steelers. They brought me in for a workout early 2016, got signed, and then did a preseason with them and got cut after the first preseason

game two weeks before our wedding. So no pressure, had no other job lined up. Well, it was so interesting because they had told us like Labor Day weekend. It's like a great weekend to do that. Like if you're going to get married, that's going to be like your one chance in this whole craziness. And then we found out that just the way that it worked. out that year, the Steelers' round, like, final round of cut would have been, like, on our wedding

day. And I was like, I will never forgive myself if he just cut because he, like, flew here for our wedding. So luckily, I got cut three weeks or two weeks earlier. So no pressure. But yeah. So that kind of was a little bit of a stressful place to start our marriage off on because we had no idea we were going to end up. And that kind of was a crazy first year kind of in and out and trying to figure out what was next. But it's interesting because you've both been in positions where the I've heard it described as being the kite and then the other person is the kite holder where like one person's out doing their thing and chasing their dreams the others kind of like you know playing support yeah supporting where initially it was Matt playing

college football Jordan you were you know just doing college and crushing you know doing really well in academics which I know nothing about how to do that and then Matt you know you went through this phase and Jordan is writing books and launching companies, how have you encouraged and supported each other through the phases where the other is the kite and out chasing their ambitions? I would say, you know, it's a learning curve, especially because I think part of our experience was it was like everything flipped kind of unexpectedly. Like we were on the track for NFL stuff. It seemed to be working out. I loved being in the cheerleader role. Like I really enjoyed that. Honestly, a large part of the reason I kind of kept running with my business and I

added some other creative things when it was first getting started just to keep it going. Like I added in some wedding photography and blogging and just it was like making stuff work because I was focused on supporting his dream and me knowing I can't just like take a job in a city. I'm going to have to probably follow wherever he goes. So it was always the first, at least the first couple years of my business, it was just to make it work for his dream and to help fund everything that he was doing with training and everything else. And I enjoyed that. I really love that. But then what was interesting is as a result of that it was like a couple years into our marriage my thing had completely taken over he had hung up his cleats and it was like he was fully in the support role

and we weren't really prepared for that we never really talked about or how do you prepare for that kind of whole 360 shift um and there was a season in our marriage where i think that was kind of tough on us because there were some unexpected on both sides we didn't really know quite how to navigate that and then we met with and he was thinking about actually leaving his job especially before my first book came out because i was going to go on a national book tour and they were going to send me out like by myself basically and I was like I don't want to do that you need to come with me so he was thinking about leaving his job but I remember just feeling a little bit like uneasy about that and we met with these like mentors in our life and the guy had played for the Colts for a long time and the gal was

like a creative kind of personality a lot like me so we really connected with them and we just were not entirely sure what was next and they looked at us and they said Matt what's Jordan's dream like what would be her dream come true with everything that's happening or what would be a dream in her life and he said best-selling author you know he kind of said all these big things and then she was like okay now what would be math stream and I knew that he at that point was like at peace with like football is done like we're past that season and he was kind of like looking for a new dream I think in that season he hadn't really 100 percent and Andrew I don't know if you relate to this but kind of figuring out like what do I want to do now you know that kind of fog and that next step and

figuring that out and so he was in that season so I responded I was like I think he'd be really satisfied like coaching high school football and fishing like it was he wanted a simple life to be honest. And they looked at us. They were like, okay, that's awesome. Very different things. So you get to the same page. And they basically just encouraged us. Like, have you ever sat down and had a dream date? Like, if you ever dreamed together? Because you've both written some like high highs and low lows, like in the last couple of years. And have you ever like actually sat down and written down like, here's what we want to build together, even if one of us is leading or pursuing a big dream in the driver's seat and the other's more in a support role? And we hadn't ever done that.

And I think that was really pivotal for us to get on the same page, to understand like this is a season. How can we really support one another in it and really chase a common dream for our family and our future, even if one of us is kind of leading in that way. So that's, I mean, that's what I would say. Yeah, I think just to kind of go off of that. So like after just to back of, so after we got married, I was still, I was like, okay, I'm going to give it, you know, I think nine months or November through May. Yeah, you said about a year. Yeah, seven months. If I'm not on seeing May 1st, then I'm done. because Andrew you know like there'll always be another workout you know another you know

another coach will call your agent will call hey I got you this so I think for me it was important to have that kind of like psychological divide of like okay it doesn't matter if somebody calls it 12.1 a.m. on May 1st I'm done so um in that process I was like okay how can I make myself useful in a way, even though I'm like pursuing athletics fully right now and I'm all in. So I taught her photography and gave her a skill, an asset to use to go and, you know, shoot weddings and engagement shoots and family shoots and all kinds of stuff like that. So I think a lot of it is just really finding where your strengths are and like no jobs too small, like really humbling yourself and just saying, all right, how can I help?

And getting to that point to start. because a lot of stuff will fall in line after that. I think it's just a matter of being willing to, you know, not overlook any, any option, you know, any potential option. Yeah. I remember same timeline. So 2015, 2016, we were engaged, getting married in 2016. Andrew had been picked up by the chiefs and then cut on, I think, similar timing.

But I remember we were both. kind of bouncing around doing different things and I came home one day because I was doing a tour and Andrew told me he had signed up to be an Uber driver and I remember navigating that fog though and it comes in waves and phases for both people but I remember listening to that and hearing him and internally almost being mad at him because I was like that's okay but you can't limit yourself to that like you're setting your bar too low so for us there's been all of these like peaks and valleys of like trying to figure out how to challenge each other how do you guys continue to like challenge each other to go for a bigger

thing than you're doing now and still making sure that it's the other person's dream does that make sense yeah absolutely i mean i i can relate to that too because you know there was times where he was like working for a moving company and it was almost like his need to feel like i'm not Like when I'm not on a team or whatever, I'm not necessarily feeling like I'm contributing, even though I'm working toward it. Like, I'm investing in the future. And it's an unknown future. I don't know if it's going to work out.

So there is that, like, need to feel like you're doing something. And people don't know how little you get paid as a $1,000, as a undrafted. Wait, you got paid? Right, exactly. I mean, it's like, I had an apartment back in Indy, and I was, when I was with Pittsburgh, I'm living in a hotel making, like, $325 a week. and I sell of rent to pay back home. So, like, you know, I had issues with, you know, friends and, you know, family who were like,

hey, like, why can't you get me tickets? It's like, because I have to buy these tickets. I don't have any money, you know, like I'm saving up. We have a wedding. We have a honeymoon, you know. So I think, and there's definitely that scrapper mentality. Like, I signed up for Uber and Lyft. I was driving for Uber and Lyft and I, you know, worked for a moving company.

And it was like, I think as a, and I don't know, maybe this is just being a college athlete or in professional athlete, like all you've ever done for 20 years is sports. And you've been told like, you're an athlete, you're an athlete, you're an athlete, you're an athlete, or whatever it is. And I think we can kind of build those walls in our own mind, like, oh, well, I guess I just have to do something that pertains to this versus like having somebody come alongside you and say well why don't you do this like you'd be great at this

you know like I just got my real estate license earlier this year so I'm you know I'm a realtor here in Indy and like it's just like I'm growing myself in different ways because she encouraged me like she's like you know you'd be really good at this like we've got a great network you know like you're a great people person like you have integrity and you know the indie area well so

Yeah. And I knew, I think I, sometimes I think the other person can see it in you when you need a challenge. And I think like he had been doing some different freelancing roles and like having success with it. But I think he was also starting to crave a challenge again. And I started to identify that. Like, I was really kind of trying to say like, hey, why don't you go for that? Like you have nothing to lose. If it doesn't work out, you hate it. Like, okay, we've lost what 500 bucks on, you know, the education. Like go for it, you know? And just identifying when, when the other could use. a challenge. And there's also, I think, on the flip side, kind of even what you were saying, Sean, like, it can reverse where there's been times where he's had to challenge me to say, hey, let's define enough. Like, because otherwise we can just, like, drive ourselves into the ground chasing the next big thing. And we walked through a season of loss and some health issues and things that I was going through. So in that, like, I was starting to express, like, I think I need to reduce my stress levels. Like, there's always going to be a next thing to achieve. And I will never forget a conversation we had. I actually wrote about it in the book,

but we were at the beginning of a year. And I had just walked through law. And I was like trying to re kind of evaluate where I wanted to put my time and spend my energy. And like I had just spent four years like working so hard trying to like do that. And so I said to him, I need to reduce stress levels. And he was like, okay. And we were planning for the year. And he pointed to a project that I had like that I was planning. And he goes, what do you want to make on this project?

Like what's your goal? And I just like threw out some random number. He's like, okay, awesome. Why? And I remember thinking like, what do you mean why? And he's like, well, why is that your goal? Like that's a great goal. do you have like why is it your goal and that was a challenge for me because i didn't know how to answer

that i was like it sounds good i've done that before my friends do that like i don't know i didn't really have a real like deep purposeful answer for it and that was really what kick started a conversation between us of like are we arbitrary arbitrarily pursuing something that sounds good without it actually being aligned with what we really value or what's most important in our life right now which we've just identified is reducing stress and health and things like that so i think the challenging can go both ways not only to challenge you to dream bigger and to go for something that's that you have the potential to do but also to know when like hey you've done a lot like also be present and enough is enough and like that's not to say settle that's not to say play small but to challenge you not to

like overexert yourself just chasing some arbitrary thing that looks shiny but maybe isn't even healthy for you so we've had to learn how to do that both ways that's freaking deep honestly the concept of defining enough it kind of sparks intentionality right like again not it's not encouraging just thinking small it's saying hey why are we doing this like maybe Sean has a goal that she wants to before we die be responsible for like raising or donating a hundred million dollars so it's like okay I never that's a massive goal to me but it's now it's not just like like hey let's you know let's just keep buying stuff and upgrading this and doing this it's like it doesn't it's just saying this is the threshold and this is why you know so i think that's

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and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Let's get back to it. Similar to you, something that I've voiced that to him quite a bit, just because I personally have been working in this world longer. And so I've reached like burnout and stuff many times. And I got to a point within our career where you have to ask that question, like, what's enough? Because we're constantly striving to do more, make more, be more.

And we said that, I think a week ago. where I was like, okay, enough chasing for us. Yeah. Like, let's put our competitive drive, because I know that's not ever going to stop somewhere else. And I was like, let's do a ridiculous number. Throw it out there, $100 million towards like a foundation. Because then, like you said, you're actually chasing a purpose

instead of saying, I need more and more and more. But with that, have you guys, I feel like I know the answer within your book, but have you guys reached burnout within your career? and how did you deal with that personally and with each other? Yeah. I mean, I have 100%. And I think maybe in different ways so you can speak to your experience.

But I think, I mean, I found out like I had like physical manifestations of burnout where like, like, it was so funny. I started getting some health testing done, especially through seasons of loss and like pregnancy loss and things like that. And it was interesting because one of the primary things that we found was that they checked like my cortisol levels and my levels were like across. Like it's supposed to have this healthy curve to it. It didn't curve at all.

just like didn't go up every anywhere and I was like oh perfect I'm not stressed like that's great and the provider I was working with was like no you've been so chronically stressed for so long your adrenals are tapped and your cortisol's in the toilet like that's not healthy and so it was almost like oh it's not just like that I feel tired and I'm burned out it's like my body's actually like struggling to keep up energy and so that was a big like eye opening thing for me and that's when I really started to shift like a lot of the way that I work and the things that I was pursuing and just honestly not even the things I was pursuing the pace at which I was pursuing them like I kind of got to that point where I was like oh maybe I don't have to achieve all of this

by 30 like if I did it by 31 life would be okay you know um so I think just kind of and he's honestly we call him the string to my balloon so when you said that about the kite earlier I was kind of like that's a really good like kind of metaphor um or visual and he was kind of the one that was kind of just always like asking the intentional questions to make sure it wasn't like hey don't dream hey don't go do anything. It was just like what's most important in this season and how do we make sure everything supports that? And kind of, yeah, I think healing from not only burnout, but also like physical like tapped adrenals and learning how to support my body better and still work with something I think you really helped me with just kind of bringing a little bit more of like a

hey, this doesn't all have to happen this year. Like it's okay, you know. And just giving myself that permission over and over and over because it can be so easy to get caught up in the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And just working on a more slow pace, and you even encourage me to take the summer off. Like, all I did was post on social media. I didn't launch anything. I didn't create anything new. My book was done at that point. And I pretty much just posted on social and lived my life in the summer. And it was really freeing for me for the first time to be like, oh, I could take a break and this thing's still going to go. And like, it's okay. It does, I don't have to be like micromanaging everything. So that would be, I think, my answer to that. Yeah. And I don't know if I've experienced

burnout. But I think you can, I guess with the NFL in professional sports, you can get a little jaded at the whole process, you know, just with the politics involved. And it's really easy to get caught up into that versus just kind of like keeping your head down and working. So I think when you do feel yourself start to lose the love for something. Because like for me, with football, It was never like, I love football. I wanted to do football for the rest of my life. It was always a vehicle. So, like, for me, it was like, hey, I learned how to throw a ball between my legs.

I got a full-ride scholarship. And let's see how far I can ride this train. So I think viewing it as a vehicle had, like, helped me because I know a lot of people who, like, still struggle. And there are times where it's like, yeah, you know, that'd be real fun. Like, I miss the locker room atmosphere, you know, the camaraderie. that you just don't get anywhere else. So, yeah, I think there's stages of that. But when you do start to, you know, experience burnout

or question why you're doing something, I think that's when it's important to kind of take a step back and say, okay, where am I out with this whole thing? Why did I start this in the first place and get back to the route? It's fun to think about, I mean, your title of the book, Embrace Your Almost, the subtitle is Find Clarity, in contentment and the in-betweens, the not quites, and the unknowns. And that resonates so well

with how I look back on my football career. But this book is really kind of like a road map through, it seems like not only your journey, but everybody in the like dreaming process, really. I'm curious, you've alluded to it a little bit, but it doesn't seem like this book launch has been this, you've approached it the same way as you have previous book launch. Book launches. I know you posted about this, but talk to us a little bit how how previous ones have gone versus this one. Yeah. So the first one, I mean, it was like all in and we did all the things. And we, this was still a great effort and all the in. But it was interesting because with the first one, we did a full national booktrial. How many? We did 10 cities and nine, nine cities and 10 days.

Nine cities and 10 days. But it wasn't, it wasn't like we were on a tour bus and going from one side of the country to the other. It was like, we're going to go from Nashville to Dallas to L.A. to North Carolina back to Chicago like nothing about it made any sense but it was just the way things worked out and so we were doing back to back to back to back to back events with like hundreds of women and so you're standing there interacting with everyone going to bed getting up flying you know over and over so I think that is actually where I kind of I was already starting to burn out and then that just kind of like was the straw that broke the camel's back where not only did we do those 10 cities but then cities kept getting added and added and added so I think we did 16 total or something

within a couple of months. And so that process was so much fun. And I think it was like the best way I could have launched a first book. But when they asked me, like, do you want to do a tour again this time? I was like, maybe a couple regional signings. But it was just like, I didn't feel that I want to go out in the road and like sell out a book tour again. It was more like, let's do what's sustainable. So we did a launch event on launch day and then we've got a couple other signings up coming over the next month or two. But it's just done in such a more like sustainable way. Not as exciting up front, but like and not as much up front but i think in a way that feels healthier um and and more doable so yeah we took a a slightly different approach to how we would go about at that time so i want to jump

back um matt how did you propose so you you heard the how we met like i'd you know i'd knocked on her door um so i had flown in to uh south bend which is where she's from northern Indiana and actually no i flew into indy and drove up um borrowed a friend's car um drove up to her house and she was actually getting ready i think it was the next day or two days after i was about to fly out to a Arizona to see him for a couple of weeks and him yeah or a week and his my mom and i mom and him like kind of made this plan yeah i coordinated with her family and uh you know I asked her dad for his blessing. Oh, and he said no at first.

Her dad's awesome. No, no, seriously, like, it was so funny. Just threw me off. But, um, anyway, I had, yeah. Yeah, he was like, I'm just, what he said? Before you can even say anything, he, like, knew why he was there. Yeah, he was like, before you say anything, like, the answer's no. And, you know, just chuckle.

And I was, like, my heart did drop for a second. I was like, uh, okay, this is awkward. Oh, no. But that's just the way, like, he's, he's just funny. So, um, ended up. They were getting ready to go out to dinner with clients of her dads. And I got down on her knee, rang the doorbell, and waited for like five minutes. Like, I rang the doorbell like three different times because, like, everyone else in the house heard the doorbell ring except her.

And her mom was like, go get the door. And she's like, well, I can. I was like getting ready or something. So she ended up finally, like I switched knees like four different times. I got football knees. like um so i felt so bad but my mom's like the door she's like oh the doorbell rang you need to go get the door i was like the door belt didn't ring i didn't hear anything she's like no it definitely did i was like so then you go get it i'm getting ready she's like no you do and so then i'm like

something is up like you're acting very weird yeah so i i was on a knee when she opened the door and um i said something along the lines of like the last time i knocked on your front door you know worked out pretty well so i thought i'd give another shot oh that's cute that that was the uh yeah that's how i proposed what a romantic that's sweet yeah truly and i know i know you i know you guys also shared your experience as you mentioned earlier about um the miscarriage uh as well could you talk to us a little bit about your experience with that jordan yeah um sure so well you know it was i think he was ready to have kids earlier than i was so i was like okay you know finally at the point where i was like i'm ready and it our first pregnancy was a little bit of

of a surprise. It wasn't like we were like really planning for it, but just more open to it. And so I was like, oh, that was fast. Okay. But it's a pleasant surprise. And then it was like immediately I was ready. Like at that point, I was like, okay, I'm in mom mode at this point. And so that was right before Christmas found out we were pregnant, did a whole like, you know, a fun reveal with our families and everything. And then we flew out to Arizona, told his families. And then within a few days, I was in the ER with some bleeding. And they told us like everything's fine. We don't know why there's bleeding. There's a heartbeat. Like just rest. And so then I had a follow-up ultrasound, and that's when we found out we ended up losing that baby, which was really rough.

And it was like seven to eight weeks. And then got pregnant again really quickly, about two months later, and walked through the whole first trimester on eventfully. We had multiple normal ultrasounds. Everything was going great. Took our announcement photos. And then in the summer, shockingly, like just a routine ultrasound, found out that we had lost that baby too. At that point, we were kind of into the second trimester. So that was, I mean, a shock.

And it was like a double whammy. And that was also right around the time all the COVID stuff was happening. So like certain things he couldn't come back with me for. And it was, it was a, I mean, especially the second time, it was super traumatic. I had surgical complications and just one thing after another. So it just felt like salt in the wound. Like I didn't even know how to process that. So we took kind of a long step back because I was just so like, I think traumatized by it all,

honestly, on top of like grief. And then double grieving because I think the first time I was kind of like, okay, well, let's try it again you know and then when it just kept happening I was like oh my gosh like what what do you do with that you know um so yeah that was kind of the quick overview but it was definitely I think a really it was a really rough like I would say year of like just trying to make sense of something that didn't make sense and I know you guys walked their loss as well and I know you've shared that too yeah it it's exactly like you said it doesn't make sense and it's one of those things that you're very confused by because you don't know whether to push it

off and be like oh let's try again it's a fluke yeah or fully grieve the loss of a pregnancy and it is it's just a very isolating feeling you don't know how to find words for it you don't know how to talk to your spouse about it and I remember for us um it actually caused quite a bit attention within our marriage because moving forward from that I didn't know how to communicate about it I didn't know where I stood on, should we try again, should we not? I think I was more, we were in the same boat where he was ready, I wasn't. And then we got pregnant and I was ready and he wasn't. And it was just kind of hard to feel like we were connected again after that and getting

back on the same, the same, what's the word? Page. There we go, page. I was about to say same side, but that sounded harsh. um so in in healing from that and i know that word is um hard because you could be healing for the rest of your life um how have you guys dealt with that and trying to to be on the same page and kind of work work through it yeah i i i think the one thing i really learned throughout the process is just how differently men and women grieve especially something like like or you know fathers and mothers um because

for me, I feel helpless to stop it. Like, I'm like, you know, I view myself as her protector. And so it's like to see something so horrible happening, like, I almost didn't, I didn't allow myself to grieve immediately. It was like there was a shot, especially the second one. I mean, being so far along, it just kind of made the first one pale in comparison. So, but like, it was like immediately like, I'm in caretaker mode. but I don't have time to grieve for myself.

Like, I'll get to that. I'll get to that. And so, like, with her, though, it was like a hurricane where it's just like everything, all at once, emotions, you know. And you're physically experiencing everything. Yeah, and she's physically experiencing it. And I can't. So there's no way for me to relate to her 100%.

Like, yeah, we both lost a child. But I think it affected her so much more personally because she was physically going through it, and I wasn't. But I think on the other side of that, like in my caretaker mode, I had just stuffed a lot of the grief for a long time, and that kind of like reared its head, you know, down the road, like six months a year down the road. And we actually, we went to a grief counselor who specialized in perinatal loss.

And that was really helpful. We went as a couple, several times, And then even individually for me to just like talk through was like immensely helpful. So I think like I said, the hurricane analogy, hers was like mainly all at once, you know, the first couple months, you know, especially the first couple weeks, just a huge swell. And then it kind of like tapered off where for me it was like low, low, low, low. And then there would just be spikes. Low, low, low, low, low, spikes. And so I think learning to to live with each other's.

grieving styles is and know that the other person is going to grieve differently because like with you guys like it caused tension with us because she's like what's wrong with you like do you not like why are you okay like she was mad that I wasn't like crying every single day and I'm like I can't like I'm the you know the kite holder so to speak like I I need to make things happen because you're incapacitated, you know? Yeah. And so not to take it personally, but to just, you know, recognize that your grieving styles are different and you're both hurting in similar ways. You just express it differently. Yeah. And I think he expressed to me, he's like, I actually feel bad that I, like, because I don't have that, like, connection that you do, like,

and the physical experience you have, like, I feel bad that I can't feel as bad. He's like, I am sad and I am confused and hurting and, like, angry. He's like, but I can, I cannot. I can, not like get myself to feel it on the same depth you do. And I think that was where some tension came for us. Not only of where do we go from here and do we just keep like getting back on the wagon, especially after the second time, I was like, no, I need a pause because I was so like physically affected. But, you know, there was that conversation, but then there was also the, like, I think I felt isolated because I felt like he was being there for me, but couldn't really be 100% with me because he couldn't understand what I was fully experiencing. And so I felt

this like divide a little bit i was like i don't want you to pity me i don't want you to just like i appreciate that you're serving me like i'm grateful for that but i think i had some like insecurity almost around like and he had insecurity that he couldn't feel as bad but i think i had some some struggle with almost just feeling isolated feeling like you can't experience this completely with me i mean you're standing here with me but like you can't even make like all the hormones and all the things happening in my body and my brain like we can't 100% connect on and that's a weird feeling when it's like this is the co-parent of the loss that you've just experienced and they're not even in the same place as you. I don't know. So there was a feeling of that

I think that created a little bit of tension too. There are so many times in life in my experience where whether it's like the proposals dating to getting engaged or like waiting on a child or waiting on your career to settle in where there are these waiting seasons or the almost right? And you say in your book, you say, if you're not where you thought you'd be, you're in good company, which I love. But how do you see making it through those waiting seasons well, you know, whether, no matter what it is, whether you're like, hey, I've been dating this guy for three years and I'm waiting to get engaged or I'm waiting for this child as we were just talking about or earlier in our career. It's like, how do you make it through

those well. We've really had to learn how to hold both disappointment and possibility at the same time. And I think, you know, like, I don't know why I sound like I have a frog in my throat today. I keep like, I don't know what's happening. But I feel like what we've had to learn through disappointments with the NFL, not quite going how we thought, and then completely recalibrating the life we thought we were going to have and loss and all the different things. Even our wedding date got pushed multiple different times because of football. So there was a lot of different almost and waitings and not quite, but we're almost there. We've really had to learn, like, how do you like your life in the middle? And we hear a lot about, like, build a life you love. And that's the

ultimate goal, right? Like, that's what we're working toward. That's the vision. But sometimes in the middle and when things aren't quite settled or something feels upside down, I've really had to learn, like the challenges to even, like life can be hard and it can be hard to love sometimes. But what can you do to make the most of where you're at, even if you're still longing for where you hope to be, even if you're still longing for that child or that marriage or that wedding day or that next career opportunity, like you can simultaneously long for that, but still do things in the middle that you really like, that bring you life, that grow your relationship, that grow you as a person, that make you more interesting. So like we started doing different things. We started

gardening, partly just to help us slow down and get into a rhythm and have a hobby that we could share. We started serving. We started hosting children in our homes, children in crisis situations through safe families. It's kind of like foster care light is how I would call it. Um, and at first I thought that was going to be super triggering and really hard, but it was actually really healing and like really opened our eyes to some things. We felt like we were called to do in our life that we didn't really realize before. Um, and all of these different things, whether it's finding a hobby together, learning new things. Like I learned how to play poker in some of our waiting seasons or like I asked him to teach me more about deer and wildlife because he's a hunter and I started reading more

books like learning new things. We went on a hot air balloon together for the first time. That's something we've always wanted to do. And we finally did it. We ran into a tree when we first took off, which was terrifying. And I was like, this was a bad idea. Why did we do that? But it was an amazing experience, you know, just like checking things off your bucket list, learning new things, finding hobbies, whether that's as an individual or together that, you know, challenge you and grow you and open your mind, serving.

Like different things like that can be ways to cultivate a life that you really, really like, even if you're not where you'd like to be. And we've had to learn how to do that to like to make the journey a little more enjoyable, even if we're not at the mountain top yet because the reality is like most of life has actually lived in the middle, is what we found. Like, we kind of are always aiming for the next mountaintop, the next book release, the next milestone in our life, whether that's a wedding or a baby or something else. But when we get there, that's like 10% of the equation.

There's two or three or four or five or six years before that of like working toward that and moving toward that. So if we're not learning how to make the journey more enjoyable, most of our life's going to feel pretty miserable because we're not going to spend most of our life in the mountain top. And that's kind of the conclusion I think we came to. And you really taught me to slow down and do that. think in many ways. Yeah, and I think that, you know, these middle seasons, the, the waiting seasons

are what really mold you and shape you. Not so much the mountaintops. Like, it's the valleys and, you know, the plateaus. It's like, who are you in that season? So to not overlook that, and I think, you know, like Paul says in Philippians for, like, I have learned to be content in every circumstance. Like, whether I'm hungry or well-fed. And it's like, in spite of all those things, like, are you content? Not complacent, but content. Like, are you okay with where you're at? And can you make the most of it?

I think, like, I always referenced that. I'm like, but Paul was also the dude who was thrown in prison, like not to get super viably, like he was the guy who was thrown in prison. I always go back to that. I'm like, it's not like he was sitting in prison. Like, I love it here. It's awesome. Like, their food's great.

Like, no, I bet he was like, I can't wait to get out of prison. And that's sometimes how a waiting season can feel. It can feel like you're, like, trapped. And it's like, I can't wait to get out of this. I'd really like for this to be over. But while I'm here, how can I make the most of where I'm at? And be used and make a difference where I'm at. Yeah, that's so good.

This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626 horsepower twin-turbo V8 engine, the Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar Rally, the ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. Sean, you could probably talk to this, but I, I kind of just as we're speaking, we're thinking about like being content or being grateful or like enjoying the little moments, as you said, Jordan.

It's like you're getting reps in so that when you finally do hit the mountain top of the peak, you can really enjoy it because so often in my football career, it was like, I wasn't even enjoying my day to day because I was like, I haven't made it yet. I haven't made it. And then I got there and I didn't enjoy it because I wasn't used to enjoying thing, right? It's like, and you have a chapter that talks about when your like dream becomes a nightmare kind of, which I would love for you to expand on. But that, that is such a powerful concept of just like really, most of life is not standing on an Olympic podium, getting

your gold medal. It's like showing up to the gym every day and training. And you have to enjoy that. And anyway, yeah. Yeah, totally. No, I mean, I agree with you. I think we can almost miss. And that's actually really key because especially as achievers and dreamers and people with ambitions, if we aren't making the process something that we notice and that we really are like present for and enjoy, it's not that it's easy. It doesn't mean it's like not hard. It just means that you find ways to enjoy it and make the journey a little bit more enjoyable.

If you don't do that, what happens is you cross the finish line and immediately there's another finish line. Immediately the finish line moves. There's like, now I got to outdo the last thing I just did. And now I've got to, you know, double my performance from last. time and it's really hard to be satisfied in anything if you're not satisfied like if you're not if you're not if you don't find ways to be satisfied in everything if that makes sense because you'll get to the mountaintop like you said and you'll be like well now what do I do now who am I you know or

how do I outdo this achievement and what's the next thing there's always a next thing and I think that's what you really taught me is he was you know in my like well let's just achieve this big goal and he asked him just even asking like why helps me get back to like a lot of times we set I guess, for example, we may set, I don't know, getting an NFL contract as the goal. We may set having a best selling book as the goal. We may set paying off debt as a goal, whatever, like, you know, making $100,000 or whatever the goal may be, okay? And I think sometimes we forget that a lot of times those are the vehicles to the actual

goal. And what I mean by that is, like, we started to realize that the NFL was just one pathway to the life that we were really hoping for, which was a life of influence and making a positive impact. It was a life of flexibility. It was a life of, like, living a lifestyle on our own terms. Like, you know, there's other ways to do that. That doesn't mean we don't grieve the loss of football and, like, that community and

everything that brought us. But that wasn't the only way there. And I think sometimes we forget that when we get so fixated on the one thing. And then we get there and there's always a next thing anyway. There's always another accomplishment you could achieve. So, yeah, I think learning to enjoy not only the process and the journey, but also when you get there starts by enjoying the process and the journey and being flexible with knowing and kind of always coming back to, okay, I think this is my goal.

I think making six figures is my goal, or I think achieving X, Y, Z is my goal. But why is that my goal? Because I think the Y is really the what. It's like, oh, I want to be able to have a flexible career and spend more time with my family. Or I want to have a way to make a positive impact on people in my community. Or, you know, you can kind of start digging into that. And you realize, like, I could so easily miss that if I just keep getting caught up in the next thing I could do and the next mountain top or the next summit to, like, climb. So I think that's why that's okay, because it kind of keeps us grounded.

And like, what am I actually pursuing anyway? And how could I potentially lose sight of that if I get so wrapped up in the details or the finish line? Because I'm not going to be satisfied when I actually get there. What's one thing you learned about yourself in writing this book? That's a good question. I really learned that I like to pencil in my own redemption stories. And I think we all do that, but especially as a writer. Like I, so I, the interesting story with this book is I actually turned in a completed manuscript on June 1st of 2020.

And I had told this kind of cliche story. at that point I was pregnant, like 12 weeks pregnant again. And I kind of told this like beautiful little like story of, hey, if something doesn't work out the first time, like just get up and try again, it's all going to work out. And then 10 days later is when our life kind of crumbled again. And the story that I had written ending a certain way completely went another way. And it's very strange to write in the ending that appears to be happening. Like I had all reason to think everything was good.

And for that to go completely sideways after I thought it was done. I mean, the whole book became an almost, to be honest. and it got pushed back a year. It was this whole thing. And I had to go back and rewrite the story how it actually went. And that was rough. I mean, that was like not what I wanted to do. And if I learned anything, it was just like, man, like, we tend to, like, I wanted to create this perfect full circle. And I think in the process, it actually became a more relatable message because we hear like, hey, just get up and try again. But what happens when on your second or your third or your fourth try, you run into a brick wall again on anything, not just having a family. Like, it's not just a book about that. There's so many other stories in there. But it was kind of this moment of like, wow. sometimes we have what I call like an unholy labor because when we think about labor, it's like there's always a reward on the other side of our effort is how we often think of it. There's a new life or there's a gift, right, on like the other side of blood, sweat and tears, whether that was training for football and then winning a game or actual labor and a baby on the other side.

But what about when you labor and you toil and you like hope and you pray and you put all your work in and the NFL doesn't work out how you thought and you've got to release that or, okay, we've gone through another loss or, you know, and I think that's what a story so many of us live, but it's not really talked about. And so I just had to learn, like, how do I handle when the redemption story I thought should have happened? It doesn't quite happen the way that I wanted it to. And I had to learn how, I think that refined me a lot, to be honest. I think it made the message stronger in many ways. It made it more unique. It wasn't fun. But yeah, I think, and I also learned sometimes the redemption stories we pencil in. Like, we want the perfect full circle

story, like, and in our timeline, right? Like, we wanted to work out that way. And sometimes it does, and that's awesome. Sometimes it doesn't. And it doesn't. And it actually makes us better. And what was interesting is I was talking with a mentor of mine shortly after all that happened. And I was like, I'm so confused. This was supposed to be the redemption story. And it was just so violently ripped away in such an ugly hard way. And she was like, I know that you feel like you got your redemption story robbed. And she's like, and I believe that redemption story will come in that way. She's like, but this was like six months afterwards. And I had told her about some of the growth we'd experienced between us and our marriage and things like

that. And she goes, I still think there's a redemption story here, though. I think your marriage needed some healing. I think your relationship needed some restoration in ways that you guys have hadn't really addressed. And sometimes through the breaking of one thing brings the healing of another. And I think you guys desperately needed that for your family's foundation going forward. And so I guess the ultimate point I'm trying to make is like sometimes we try to try to pencil in our redemption stories and it's really hard when it doesn't go that way. But that doesn't mean healing or necessary restoration or redemption isn't happening. We just kind of have to like look for it in different ways. And that's at least I think what I learned in the process.

All right. If you were going to sit down and give yourself advice, the day you two got married. Oh, jeez. So how many years ago was that? Six years. Five, five and a half. Yeah, it'll be six the September. Yeah. Nice.

What would you say to yourselves that day? It's going to be hard. It's going to be the hardest thing you've ever done, but it's going to be refining and it's going to be worth it. Like you don't know what you don't know. So don't think. take for granted the the good times or even the neutral times because bad times, you know, come to everybody. And I think you just appreciate the good times and the neutral times that

much more. So, yeah, that's good. I would second that. And I think I would also tell myself at that point where I think I had started to shortly after that, we had gotten really caught up in the achievement of things. Not that that's bad, but I think I would have shaken my shoulders and been like, hey, 22-year-old me, you have no idea what's coming. Like, start on the sacred things before you're ready. Like careers, like, there are seasons for everything. And I think there was a short season there. Thankfully, it didn't last too long, but there was definitely a season there where, like, my career was ultimate, especially as it started to work. And I think I held that even over, like, family and everything. And it was through loss, through loss that that, why do I sound like I have a

frog in my throat. I don't know what is happening. I'm like, I think I need water. But I think through loss, like, that shook me to realize, like, that is really what I value. And, like, nothing is more important than this relationship and what this relationship can build. And careers will come and careers will go. Accomplishments will come. Accomplishments will go. But, like, if you sacrifice your family or your health at the altar of success, you're not succeeding at anything. And I think if I had known that earlier, I don't know that our experience would have changed, but I think maybe my approach in the beginning would have been very different. And I just, I don't know, that's the advice I'd give to anybody who's young and

married and bright eye and like in the seat that we were. And that's what I'd go back and tell myself is like, hey, don't sacrifice your family or your marriage or your health at the altar of ambition because you'll always lose when you do that. You said start on the eternal things. On the like sacred things. Like, meaning like, like lean into the things that are truly like, like important and sacred and that you actually really value because I think, I guess what I mean is it can be really easy. And I know at least for me, I kind of got caught up in the Instagram girl boss culture. Like, and I think anybody can do that, meaning like, hey, you've got to do all this while you're young and you've got to go after. And then I felt like my health paid the price.

I felt like even kind of our relationship paid the price. And I don't say that like our loss was as a result of that. But I think that was the thing that jolted me back into like, why am I even doing this? You know, like I was just kind of onto the next thing and I just kept wanting to put off family and not think about it. And I think I missed. Like if that wouldn't have happened, I don't know that. I think I'd probably still have just kept doing that. without any perspective. So that's what I say, like, don't delay on the sacred things like health and family and getting married or commitment because you think you have to get ahead in your career

or something else. Like, those things don't hold you back. They just enrich your life. And I think I had the wrong perspective on that when we first got married in some ways. Dang, that's so good. I feel like we all share this quality where I'll see, I'll see where someone's at and then I'll try to set my goal with where they're at. but I don't factor in the idea that they're 20 years older than I am and 20 years further down

the path. But my expectation is I'm going to be there, as you said, next year. And it's really in the almost or like focusing on the sacred things now, as you said, that ultimately helps you get to wherever your ambition is. So like don't try to force it for now because it is a unfolding process. And I think, anyway, I think you write about that beautifully. I love your story. story. And I'm a big fan of you guys. It's fun to see. I feel like we have some connection just because Matt and I's history together. As the snapper world. And the help he gave me on the third date. Yeah. But for those listening who are interested in Jordan and her book and Jordan and Matt's content online, we'll link all that down below. But do check out Jordan's newest book.

Congratulations, by the way. It's called Embrace Your Almost. And it's, it's powerful. And it's but thank you for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for having us. It's been so fun to chat with you guys and just we're big fans of you as well. So really appreciate the support and awesome conversation. Thanks guys. Thank you.