Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 155 | nashville school shooting

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Today we talked with Licensed Professional Counselor, Sissy Goff, who has been helping parents have impactful conversations with their children about the tragic school shooting at the Covenant School in Nashville, TN. Our hearts are absolutely broken that our community is going through something like this and we hope this interview is helpful in guiding you through these difficult but important conversations with your children. Praying for each family affected by this awful tragedy. If you’d like to donate, please see the links below.  To sponsor free counseling sessions through Daystar Ministries for students at The Covenant School: https://daystarcounseling.salsalabs.org/donate/index.html To donate to the Nashville Covenant School Shooting Fund:  https://www.gofundme.com/f/covenant-nashville-shooting-fund To donate in honor of Mike Hill, the custodian who lost his life in the school shooting: https://www.gofundme.com/f/mike-hill-custodian-at-covenant-school-nashville To donate to the Scruggs family, who lost their 9-year-old daughter, Hallie: https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-scruggs-family-in-honor-of-beloved-hallie To donate in honor of Evelyn Dieckhaus, a 9-year-old who lost her life while pulling the fire alarm to alert others of the active shooter: https://www.gofundme.com/f/in-loving-tribute-to-evelyn-dieckhaus Contact your local lawmaker https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you're with Amex, Plathom, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best hapice in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. all right today's show is going to be different than normal we're going to be talking about the tragic incident that happened here in Nashville talking about our story in regards to it but then also bringing on cissy goff who is a licensed professional counselor to help us navigate how do we discuss this topic

between us as adults and also how do we discuss this topic as a family with our kids I hope it goes without saying our hearts are with every family. Evelyn, Hallie, William, Cynthia, Catherine, and Mike. To the families of those six people can't imagine what you're going through. This is our community. And this is going to be a heavier episode, but one that we think is worthwhile. I think as we discuss this topic, you know, this is tragic. The pattern seems to be there will be more of these tragic incidents.

to come so hopefully this can be a resource moving forward as we go through this and maybe be a resource to the families at the school but uh do you want to start by sharing our story with it sure so we were at this house uh filming that day when things started to unfold at covenant presbyterian we initially got the call that it was our kids school and i i want to say this like not lightly but or insensitive to the families who are a part of it but um because things were unfolding so quickly and people were trying to notify loved ones we did get the call that it was drew in jet school um i obviously panicked called andrew told andrew told him him and we just desperately tried to get a hold of our school and go get our kids.

After about 20, 30 minutes, we were corrected that it was Covenant Presbyterian, which is not where our children go. We're trying to discuss this topic, protecting the proximity of our house. I will just say this is our neighborhood that this happened in. and so everything was was happening and unfolding right before our eyes but i sorry i don't even know how to talk about it so um i was filming that day here and i remember walking out to the driveway and seeing the helicopters and the police cars and hearing everything and something that's like tattooed in my brain forever is we have like a direct line to the street like main street that

connects that goes to the school and i just saw parents flying down the road probably at a hundred plus miles an hour um laying on their horn and it registered it was like these are parents you could tell it was civilian cars and it was uh it just shattered my heart. Sean was filming with blippy here at the house. I was picking up donuts to bring to the staff. And it was at like 1020 on Monday. I see it must have been half a dozen cop cars.

Full pedal to the metal flying down the main road here with their sirens on. Just kind of thought it was a fire. Kept going. Went grocery shopping. Got a call from Sean. that there was a shooting at the kid's school headed directly to the school got there probably within five minutes i think i was maybe the second or third person there i was in the area so that worked how well and the situation's very still fresh at that point still unfolding uh information

is still coming in the school's trying to send out emails early dismissal they're on lockdown there's like we got three or four emails and it's like all right they're they're also trying to figure out what to do as are we and my main priority. party was I need to be with him. I need to be with my kids. I wasn't really sure what the situation was. It's like, all right, I get the call and hear that and I'm not like digesting this or really comprehending anything. It's just going and I will go get the kids. I don't know what the scene is, don't know what the situation is. When I got to the school, there were parents on their knees on the floor crying bawling and this is when I realized like okay wow that started

understanding the gravity the situation and information you know leaks in and realize the shooting wasn't at our kid's school it's in again the neighborhood and we got when you get a call that there's an active shooter one that's walking distance from our house two that's in the neighborhood of our kids school it's like their school's on lockdown but you're also like who knows we didn't know what where the shooter was or had they been handled and taken care of or not so there's obviously a lot of intensity around that situation i was able to grab the kids and that was i mean the scene of that is like there's confusion on their end um drew's like angry because school got out let out early they rushed them back in from recess and it's like you don't know how to you don't know how to talk to these kids about this topic again sissy will help us navigate this uh later in this in this show but on our way home you know we i was just thinking about the route that we would need to take which is different than normal just given the situation and all the police activity and emergency vehicles around and we just ended up passing by

kind of some main hubs of things that were happening and so they had found another location to move the kids and the teachers from covenant to for safe pickup and the reunification center which you'll hear cissy talk about yeah and so we passed by that and as sean alluded to like it's a panic situation there's traffic everywhere the main streets are all closed off and people were just breaking the rules of the road because parents were like going on the opposite side swerving going on the medians going off the side of the road to get to this church to get their kids you had parents running across the street there was policemen who you know arms in the air desperation crying um and we also passed a motorcade of buses they were moving the kids

kids and teachers to that location. And it's, and then the rest of the day was helicopters and sirens and phone calls and tears and it's, then the next day, there was a bomb threat on a school in our neighborhood. And so it's like, man, what's happening? It's like this fog of so many different things unfolding. You're not really sure how to navigate it, but. I think the hardest part for Andrew and I was one dealing with the initial shock of that desperation you feel as a parent of just wanting to keep your baby safe and then two in Nashville as a family like because this school is so close to us we know so many people who go there we know those babies and we know the kids and texting 50 people at a time just other moms and and dads and being like do you have your kids are they okay have you heard anything and a friend of

ours one of his uncle or a friend of ours her uncle was one of the first responders and he was trying to update us on is the shooter still loose like is it like are we okay to go home what do we do and it was just this really hard situation of how do we navigate this in the best way possible as parents um since then after it started rolling out of like the gravity of the situation the babies that were taken the staff members that were taken from us it just like it was just the most horrible day we've gone through ever and i feel like the hardest part for and i or i won't speak for you but i'm sorry the hardest part for me at the moment is is, it's just, it's so sad and it's so sickening.

And to know that this is the reality of the world that we live in is horrible. Posting condolences and prayers and something we talk about with Sissy is to see comments and to see everything come through of people processing and digesting, we want to fix this as much as anybody in the world. And right now we're trying to grieve through it with our community and our families. but I don't know what the solution is. Yeah. Like seeing the responses,

obviously people have a lot of strong emotions, I think rightfully so regarding this topic. I think it's important to keep in perspective, though. The goal at the end of this should be to keep our kids safe. So how do we do that? And it's like, let's talk about safety measures at our school. And there's been so many emails and steps taken from our kids.

school security measures added let's have those conversations let's we're on the same team here with this right and we can all sympathize and agree that protecting kids is an important thing it should be the main goal and i also from a practical standpoint with the kids let's not let evil prevail here I think we take the steps that we need to to protect the kids, but the good that comes out of us being a community, us having kids in school, the relationships they have with their teachers, with their friends far outweighs the bad.

And I think it's worth fighting for to preserve that good. So let's all be on the same team with that. Do what we need to, do what we can to preserve that. I don't think it's, oh, hey, we're never leaving the house again. I don't think that's the right response. I don't think it's distrust of everyone around. I think there's so much beauty and community. Let's make it that way and let's keep it that way.

I mean, we dropped the kids off at school on Wednesday. I felt like that was an important thing to do. And the climate there is somber, to say the least, and parents still crying, teach still crying. I mean, there's not a lot of conversations happening aside. from this topic I have a I have so many thoughts

go ahead no I know I know I as Cicely talks about don't process through things with your kids

so I don't think I should process through with the world yeah I'm still trying to figure it out I will say I think one of the hardest moments one of my best friends is a psychologist

and I texted her the next morning we woke up i woke up tuesday morning helped get our babies up and i just started bawling and i texted her and i was like i can't help but feel guilty that i get to wake up with our babies and it's like it was this weird feeling of like i feel so blessed that our babies are okay but i feel so guilty because i know there's mammas and daddy's waking up without their babies and it just ruined me we wanted to bring on sissy golf to help provide hopefully some good resources uh for this incident and also potential future ones um i think the way she talks about this does apply to school shooting tragedies but also grief in general um so i hope you

find help from this episode if you want to find out more about cissy will link her information down below. We'll also link down below. There are ways to donate to Daystar Ministries. If you want to help cover the costs of counseling for all of the covenant families, we can link the GoFundMe's for each individual family, Mike, Cynthia, Catherine, William, Evelyn, and Halley. There, I think, is also one other fundraising page for national covenant families in general so we'll try to link everything that we can but and i are still having conversations every day of who else can we donate to what else can we do what else what else bigger can we create to help with mental health and law changing and

just everything and i i want to reiterate to the people following who are saying you know we don't take our platform lightly we we want to help be part of the fix we want our babies to forever feel safe and we will do everything we can please just give us time to figure that out whatever that is yeah i'm not sure there's there's no textbook way to navigate the situation so we're probably not doing it the right way please have patience on us this is our first experience with this we're trying to we don't know what to do but we are trying to do but we are trying to something so we'll link the go fund me pages also there's a lot of people asking to talk to lawmakers and no one's actually told us how to do that so we'll include a link down below that you can enter your zip

code if you feel so inclined in your zip code you'll be able to see who your representatives are see what their contact is if you want to contact them and i i also don't want to undermine prayer there's a lot of people that say hey talk less about god and more about gun control i get that all right but i think it can be a both and situation and just because this needs to happen doesn't mean we can't also do this and there is deeper issues at play it's like you know that's this world bad stuff happens in and prayer does have a place in this i think for people who are removed from this people who are across the country, people who are across the world. What else can you do?

So please keep on praying. I think it does make a difference. And it's a good perspective of a half. If you don't have hope, what else do you have? Our friend shared with us an article that I thought was interesting from the perspective of a pastor who says that this is not okay. Easter is coming, but everything right now feels like Good Friday and Holy Saturday. But because this is not okay, we know this is not the end. I love you.

Never thought we'd be going through this together. But we are. Here we are. So without further ado, here's Sissy Goff, a counselor for over 30 years. She works with Daystar Ministries, a licensed counselor. And you may have seen her video on Instagram in response to this on how to talk to your kids about this school shooting incident. So, Sissy, thank you for joining us this morning. I know you've been busy.

How are you? Just sad. I mean, I feel like I was late partly because of school traffic and partly because I was just in the shower hanging my head. You know, it's just hard to. I think we're all carrying it this whole town collectively is carrying it. Yeah, I know we're in the same neighborhood very close to where this incident happened. And I know you've been talking about this a lot this week. We're so thankful that you're able to join us this morning.

Yeah, the video you made on Monday was the most helpful thing that I saw. And as like a bystander, you're not sure what to do. Right. And so we just wanted to engage in this conversation and talk about, you know, we have a three-year-old and a one-year-old and your video was so helpful on helping us kind of navigate through that. So just kind of wanted to spend this time and talk about that and unpack it. Because unfortunately, it seems like the trend is there will be more incidents like this. So hopefully this can serve as a resource for this immediate incident,

but also moving forward um i would not i wish it would never happen again yeah to have the conversation but yeah love to help however um okay so first let's start with your background i know you work with the day star ministries yes if you could tell us about that just to inform your background on this yes i've been counseling kids and families for 30 years which feels crazy to do anything for 30 years but um yeah and and have been very privileged to get to be where we call it a little boy called it the little yellow house that gives hope i feel like it keeps getting bigger but over in berry hill so close by and we see kids and families from about eight to 18 we have 13 human staff members we have five dogs on staff who are many of the kids who come they're their favorite therapists and

And I think we currently have about 2,000 families that are at Daystar. And so out of that work, I have gotten to write some and speak some. And we have our own podcast called Raising Boys and Girls and just, you know, trying to help. Because I think, I mean, we are living, even apart from the tragedy that has happened this week, we're living in a really anxious world for kids and for parents. And so just trying to get as many resources out as possible. what is is eight the youngest that you guys see typically we're going down we are with covenant families right now we're offering free counseling for as long as they need it and we're going down to seven

with them but we do we do kind of a mix that we do some cognitive behavioral therapy some play therapy some talk therapy you know there are a million kinds of therapy nowadays but but under seven they really need play therapy because play is the language of kids and often they'll express themselves through play in ways they won't do words and so under that age we recommend a play therapist typically since covenant schools went younger than seven yes do you recommend that under seven outside of play therapy is dealt with from like the parents perspective or do you go seek professional help i would always start with the parents and especially the little bitty ones i mean i know from having to i mean you are their safest people and you're if

something's overflowing that they're feeling emotionally you're going to either hear it or with your one-year-old maybe get the brunt of it because they don't have as many words yet but but yes I think parents we've been really encouraging parents to say lean in here are some ways you can talk to them about it and if it feels like they're stuck and you're watching these things happen then at that point yes take them to see counseling talking about kids what do you I know it's probably different for every age range but what do you look for as like signs of there is something there that they're trying to process and they don't know how yes that's a great question i'm with little bitty ones i would say watching for obviously more tearfulness clinginess regression in any ways i think a lot

of kids will baby talk when they're struggling anger i mean when i sit with parents of toddler age kids probably the emotion I hear about the most is anger. And what we know from a therapy standpoint is all behaviors communication. So they are saying something they need when they're acting out. And typically, anxiety is often at the root of that anger. But they don't yet have the words to say, you know, I don't know what to feel. And so I feel worried or I feel worried something bad's going to happen to somebody I love and I feel anxious about it. Will you help me? So they just get angry instead. So, I mean, with young ones, those would be the things to watch for. And actually, I would say, I think all ages, just even emotions that are bigger than the situation warrants. And we're

everybody, I mean, we're having that this week. And so everybody's going to for a period of time as we're grieving and absorbing all of this. But if it continues and you see a pattern, that's when I would work for help. And when you say emotions that are bigger than the situation warrants you're talking about obviously this situation is massive the yes that sparked it but you're like hey what the lunch that is on their plate they get super upset yes you made the banana break and they are losing their minds about the banana that was broken or something like that yeah it's it's hard you know we have a three-year-old daughter who probably has a stronger grasp on things that happen than our one-year-old does can you help me

understand like what how do they comprehend the situation it's it's hard i don't want to write off like oh they don't get it they don't they're too young to understand it and i don't want to downplay it because even when i picked up drew you know our kids went in lockdown on monday and she's seeing adults everywhere cry she's confused why she's getting pulled out of school early in the car she was yelling at me because she didn't get to go outside and play recess or they rust her inside. And so it's like, you know, embarrassingly, I say she doesn't understand it. It's not worth explaining. But how can I understand her emotions better?

Great dad to be asking that question of a little girl. You're going to be asking that question for the next, the rest of her life. But I think, you know, I mean, really, I do think they're absorbing things. And you're right. I don't think they fully grasp it. I mean, I've talked to a lot of covenant families this week who have said, I don't think my kids really understand that two of their best friends had at eight years old. Because, of course, they don't understand the ramifications of what that means.

And at three, certainly not. But at the same time, I have a four-year-old nephew right now. that I mean apart from this in the last three weeks he has dreamed that I have died like 16 times which is so weird and freaks me out a little but I think he's trying to understand death and he doesn't and so his little brain is just sorting it out even in his sleep and so I think just to know that really big things are going on inside of them and they absorb so much and you're I mean even when you said watching the adults rush around she's picking up on that anxiety and the sadness and grief of all the people around her and absorbing it even

when she doesn't fully understand it so there's a lot happening inside of them and we want to pay attention watching your video that you posted on instagram you said don't process things with your kid try to like be the source and be confident in your delivery the thing that like i this episode is brought to you by defender with its 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine, the defender, Okta, is taking on the Dakar rally. The ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. Before we decided to do this, I was like, I'm going to make it through this without crying.

But the thing that gets me is, like, every single person involved has so much trauma. So, like, the first responders and the teachers, how do you confidently deal with this with the babies with your kids before you've had the chance to process. So if they're asking questions and you still haven't been able to, like, all of these adults will be processing this for years. Yes. How do you deliver information to kids before you've figured it out? Well, I think we're all figuring it out.

I don't think there's any kind of answer. And I think, I mean, to sit with a child and be teary over it, to say, I don't understand either. I think any of those things are fine and even good. I mean, I think they feel that connection and the empathy and the compassion. I mean, all of that, you're kind of stepping into that together. And I think probably, honestly, this is so practical. I think one of the best things we can do. Like when you said that, it made me teary thinking about it.

And I immediately, because I talk about this all the time with kids and families, but I immediately slowed down my breathing instinctively just trying to like calm myself down and be present in what you're saying and hear you because I feel those things so big. And so I think even as we're sitting with kids, I mean, I was at the reunification center for four hours, I think on Monday. And it was so awful. And watching the parents, I mean, everyone there knew their kids were safe, but they were calling their names four at a time and sending them to go connect with their kids.

And at one point, they called me up and I was talking to them about like, here's what I want, you know, here's some things to say. And I said, before you grab your child, I want you to take three really slow deep breaths. I mean, I think we can enter into anything with a lot of prayer. I should say that. God's help, but also just taking three slow, deep breaths, as we're talking about it. And then you sit with them, and kids,

my friend and colleague, David Thomas, said this when we were speaking to the covenant parents, whatever, I don't even know what day it is. But the other night, and he said, which I love this, he said, kids' way of talking about things is a lot like we think about swimming. Like their lungs aren't fully developed, so when they're swimming, they need to come up for air more.

and talking is the same way. They can only sit in the intensity for a short burst of time. And so really to be able to take some deep breaths, sit with them, and then go cry in your room or stay in your shower and hang your head or whatever you need to do. But I think that can help us sit with them in the moment. Yeah, that was one of the things that stood out that you mentioned kids move in and out of grief quickly and often.

Yes. What do you mean by that? What does that look like? I was with a child yesterday from Covenant and she we sat on my floor as we were talking and I have my dog in my office and we were petting my dog and you know she literally bounced into my office and then she talked about being in the building and what it was like and just horrific and one of those times that I'm inside myself since it's breathe, breathe, and be with her.

And then at the end, she popped up and gave me the biggest hug and smiled her whole way down the stairs. You know, I just think that, we can't do that. You know, we're going to be rocked even by that car. I went home and, you know, ate cheese was all ate for dinner because that's what I want. You know, but they move in and out in that way. They're much more transient emotionally, which is amazing. Such a picture.

I feel like that's got to be one of the hardest parts as like, as an adult or a parent of kids processing this is we don't go in and out of it. Right. And it's almost harder to see, it's amazing to see their joy to come in and out. But it's so emotionally just unstable for adults because it's hard to go up and down that much. It's almost like we try to push it away or bring it to the surface and get it out. How do you, I don't know, I don't know, even know if there's a question. question but how do you like process keep as an adult calm and going in and out of that trauma with

them just taking deep breaths yes i think exactly what you need you know it was interesting we um when our several of our staff members were at the center on monday and afterwards we kind of descended into the main office of day star and we were talking about kind of what different ones had experienced and one staff member came in with her lunch and said, I just need to sit with y'all and she was so teary. And I said, I just need to go to my office and be by myself. And I'm so grateful, I mean, I'm way older than y'all. I'm 52.

And at 52 that I know I need to go be by myself. And I knew last night I needed to be in my house and eat cheese and have a glass of wine. And I watched Allie McBeal, which is so stupid. But it's like you have to figure out what you need to take care of yourself in those moments. And so sitting with your kids, and then they're going to want to go out to play. And when they go play, take a walk or read or do whatever you need to do to fill yourself back up. I think we've got to make sure it's like that oxygen mask thing. We've got to do what we need to do to take care of ourselves to be able to take care of them.

We keep asking questions about all the babies and stuff. But going back to what I was saying of watching it all play out and all of the first responders and news reporters. and parents, because adults are more complex and we sit in these emotions heavier and deeper with anxiety and worry, how do adults best breach this topic of like processing it? With each other? With themselves, honestly, at first. Both. That's such an interesting thing that y'all just said.

Because I think some people will want to process it with others first, and some people will need to process it with themselves and and I think exactly that like figuring out what you need to do to process it and there are going to be times you're going to know that you need to talk to somebody else and one of the experiences that's been interesting for me is um it has been good to talk to people that are in it with me and I'm from Little Rock, Arkansas and I have had so many I've had so many friends from home that have reached out just checking on me which is so silly because obviously I was not there

but I'm grateful and and I think shared trauma is so helpful to process together and then sometimes people that have had not as much experience with it is really helpful to you and so I think just figuring out what you need really that's so simple it has been really Sean and I posted on social media and then like it's obvious people have strong emotions about this and it's

yes angry it's like automatically it's polarized which is i think sad and missing the point it's like hey but one of the things we were talking about was i think that kind of outlash is some people's way of grieving you know what i'm saying it's like that's a great point and it's i don't know maybe that's just me anger and want justice which is good yes right um but it's hard it is hard i just don't even read it yeah i am i wish i had that ability can can you maybe break down by like age categories um kids developmentally and and how they might be perceiving the situation and then maybe some like vocabulary or phrases that you might address for each of those buckets is that possible yes let let me address

the how they might be grieving and then let's come back to the other because I want to know more what you mean but I think um I mean little ones especially are going to be the ones who are I think that the teeny ones will probably you're going to see more out of them like more frustration at really simple things and part of that is not even what it's about it's absorbing what's happening with us and knowing I mean I think don't you all just feel intense right now like I just feel intense And I think even that sometimes from us, they interpret as anxiety and it kind of washes over them. So I think we're going to see more just kind of more like extra behavior in all ways with little bitty ones. I think a little bit older, they're going to have different questions and they're going to want to be around us more.

They're going to want us to be security for them when we love kids. And so I think being really present to answer their questions. And then I would say the teenagers, especially, I met with a teenage girl yesterday, who I feel like I maybe said three words. And she just, it was really cool to hear her talk. And she just was needing to think out loud with somebody that was neutral in her life. And she's watching even her parents' response, I think more than they know, and taking a lot of notes and said,

I wish I could pray like my mom. And I want to learn more scripture because that's comforting. I mean, you know, they're all absorbing, but I think the little ones are asking questions of us, the older ones are asking questions that they probably want to get to the answers themselves, which is indicative of life

and where adolescents are anyway. But I think helping facilitate that for them is helpful. I think furthering on what Andrew was saying, the vocabulary I think something that you just try to do as a parent is for lack of a better word downplay the situation yes and I think my biggest question for like friends of ours and with babies and teenagers is do you do you like cut to the chase and like tell them how horrific the situation is you say there has been a shooting and or do you like what vocabulary do you use very factual yeah i think we've got to be i mean obviously we're going to

use words like horrific um but those are more i think those words are more how we process and i think we've got to be careful that we're not again processing with them and i think in our panic sometimes we give them more words than they need and so it depends on the age, I mean, I think the question I would put back to parents is, is there any way your younger child is going to hear about it from somebody else? Because if there is, I think y'all mentioned this before, that is not what you want to happen. You want to be the source. And so if you feel like they might hear about it, even at preschool on the playground or a kindergarten on the playground, then I want you to talk about it first, be very factual. You know, there was a

tragedy that happened at a school in our neighborhood and several people were killed. I mean, again, if you feel like they're, but if they're not going to hear it, then don't say it that little. But I think especially grade school kids, we need to tell them very factually, very short, you know, concrete language because they're concrete thinkers, this is what happened. Immediately tell me what questions you have because we want them to lead the conversation because like I talked about in that video, kids have this innate ability. in tragedy, even if their parents are getting divorced.

It's this amazing phenomenon inside of them that I have kids who will ask immediately why is this happening, and then I have kids who don't ask for four years, because internally they can't handle the information yet. And so that's why we want to really follow their lead on what they're asking. And also follow their lead with the vocabulary they're using. So like, hey. I love that point. Is that a question?

I'm not. Yes. You know, mostly, one thing that I think has been interesting in being with families from Covenant, one of the things that a parent talked about, we, what day is it Thursday? Wednesday night, we were called in David Thomas and I had to speak to the parents before they had the service at a church. And one of the parents talked about that their child, which I've heard this a couple of times, that it felt a little bit like, you know, all these police showed up and armored cars. And when you're a seven-year-old child, there's a part of that that you're like living in, you know, some cartoon that you watch all the time.

And so I think there's been some good guy, bad guy, language that almost makes it feel a little bit more like that, if that makes sense, versus I have heard other parents talk about it from more of a mental health standpoint. Like there was someone who was, they had an illness that affected their brain instead of their body as much. And so sometimes when that's happening, people make really, just really hurtful decisions, you know, and I like that because it takes out the, I mean, you know, I think those kids, to some degree, felt some excitement standing at the fire station and seeing the armored cars, which in some ways is great because they weren't processing the trauma

of it at that point. But I like moving them out of kind of the more exciting language to the gravity of the situation because I think it helps them process it. So yes, following their lead with some awareness of tweaking sometimes. A thought that I have, and I feel like through this conversation, we're processing it still too a lot. Sure. But something that I've thought about with those kids is like in the parents is how do you stay factual?

And as a parent, you want to protect your kids at all costs. And having those conversations. without instilling fear with the kids who have walked away with it, like walked away from this unscathed to a certain, like they thought it was exciting to a certain extent because they weren't there and they didn't hear it or they didn't see it. How do you have these conversations without instilling this fear in them of walking into school every day and being like,

is this going to happen to me? And then the long-term question of that is what is the long-term effect of the gravity of the situation on all of these kids like minds and mental health you know we all I think when y'all were growing up did you hear about school shootings

no there's always tornado drills and coming from the Midwest yeah yeah I mean I have heard several comments this week of kids saying this is a part of life, which is tragic. It makes me sick that that's the world that they're growing up in. But I think that question is in some ways we would think that because it was not a part of any of our lives. It just is unspeakable and unimaginable that they would even feel that way. And obviously, the first time they hear it is different than the however many of the time some of these teenagers are hearing it and they do feel

like this just happens and it should never happen um but i think um i do think kids i mean there are you know now we are at one and four children are dealing with anxiety in america today girls are twice as likely as boys to deal with it one and three adolescents and one and three adults and so anxiety is pervading, pervading, is that even a word, pervasive in our culture. And there's so many, I mean, we could have a whole another conversation on anxiety alone. But I do think

part of what happens with anxiety is kids take the worst thing they can imagine developmentally. And so we could even do a timeline of where I see kids looping thoughts, which is what happens when we're anxious, where they're looping thoughts go. And there are going to be a lot of kids now who are looping around a school shooting. of course. And so I think, you know, we are gray thinkers. We're not black and white anymore as

adults. Hopefully we can struggle that way some, but I think kids are still black and white. And so talking to them about things like, okay, what do you know in your school are the safety measures the school is taken? Now, we know Covenant did a beautiful job of taking safety measures, and it didn't stop this from happening. But kids don't need to know all those details. It's not helpful for them. They need some kind of feeling like there's some control at school. And so to talk to them about what are the safety measures you know your school has in place, what can you do if you feel scared at school? And let's talk about some practical things you can do if you start to feel anxious when you're walking in the building. I mean, I think all of those things can make a difference

and helping kids when they get anxious, move toward some kind of purpose can be really helpful for them too. I feel like I lost your question, Sean. No, you answered it. Okay. Yeah. the long term yeah i don't know i mean i think we're just you know it's it's the first generation of kids that have grown up like this and i i do think in the the teenager i met with yesterday said i will be forever changed and i think they every kid every kid in Nashville will because they feel the reverberations of this every kid in every city where this has happened in their town but i think every kid growing up today will be impacted by the fact that this was a part of their life. And so, you know, I don't think we know because the way that trauma impacts kids is in the

short term, obviously there's a lot that goes on for them, but grief for any of us. I mean, I lost my mom two and a half years ago and, you know, there are the most random things that all of a sudden I'm crying in some random place still, you know, it's like, where your life's circumstances are, it brings grief up fresh in different ways, and the same's going to be true for these kids. And we don't know what that looks like, but we sure know we want to take care of them.

On that note, transitioning to kind of the faith backdrop, I do think, as I've been thinking through this, it's like we've gotten so many messages about, like, oh, this is why I'm going to send my kid, or I'm going to homeschool my kid. not send them to school, which if you want to homeschool your kid, go for it. But also, I don't think the right response is to cower in the face of evil.

You know what I'm saying? It's like when I think of the benefits our kids have from this community, from these friends, from the teachers that are learning from, the beauty outweighs the evil, right? And I think we need to work to preserve that because it does take work and it is worth it. but I also think as tragic it is a situation like this does provide an opportunity to connect with your kid in such a powerful way and I lost my dad three months ago oh I'm so sorry yeah what's I mean we're in it together but um we've spoken to our three-year-old about like hey papa's in your heart now and like he's with you

Jesus and she'll talk about now Papa like in this really beautiful way and I wouldn't change that like it's it is so special and I know these friends at Covenant are going to be talking about their friends in like this special way and so yes thank you for unlocking this I think infrastructure and path for people to talk about things in that important way so how does faith play a part in this as you talk about you know counseling these kids as you navigate the situation maybe it's more of a personal question but like what difference does it make yeah well can i tell you something practical first sure i want if y'all don't already have the book the invisible string i would love for y'all to get it it's not a theological book in any way but it's really sweet for

young kids to grieve and i think it would mean a ton and i love that you are talking about him because I mean, I know for my nephew, we have some dear friends who they lost, the mom lost her dad, and they have talked about him so much that their youngest son who never knew him thinks he did because he's just such a part of their world. And my nephews, I think, are growing up that way. I mean, my nephew talks about my mom all the time. And he doesn't, he won't remember her, but he thinks he does. And so I love that y'all are doing that.

gift and you know from a faith standpoint i um it's so hard because i feel like i think um i think we have so much hope as believers and and i was at a funeral for a i think she was seven years old probably 20 years ago and carter crinshaw who was the pastor of weston forever and as a dear friend he said as believers we grieve and he said and our grief is always framed by hope and so it looks different and I have never forgotten him saying that and I think at the same time I feel like a lot of believers throw out a lot of platitudes that when someone is grieving they feel crappy to hear with the best of intentions you know what I mean like we just don't know what to say and we're trying to say something and so um what do you mean by platitudes like um like when you are in the first

you know a few days of losing somebody you love and it feels awful and you can barely scrape yourself off the floor and someone said says god works all things together for the good that is true and you will for the rest of your life you will see god's redemption and losing your death but you don't feel it in the first however long you know um and so i think i think those truths have so much more power when we can sit with somebody first and let them be sad and sometimes we say things out of our own like i don't know what to do with your sadness and i want you to feel better and so i'm just going to throw something out then maybe you'll help so that would be what i would mean but but i think um in the midst of not

having those answers i um i was standing i have for whatever reason done a lot of interviews this past week and one of those was CNN and I was out Tuesday morning. I thought it was going to be in a building in Burton Hills and I just didn't pay attention and Monday was so crazy and it turns out it was out on the road outside from Covenant across from Covenant and I just had no idea and I didn't take a coat which was really dumb because I didn't know and so it was really cold Tuesday morning and I was standing on the street shivering because I was cold and I was a nervous wreck about being on CNN live and I just hadn't you all probably have driven by it a million times because of where you are but I hadn't been outside the building since it happened and I was standing there waiting and praying and breathing and looked across and at the sign the covenant sign and at the huge poster up about Easter and I thought

there's nothing else to say like that's it like this is the darkest day in Nashville history that I remember and Easter like it just feels like there's nothing else about the cross and

and I don't those aren't even really words other than in that moment when I thought I could sob my head off and embarrass myself on national TV like there's our hope Oh, this is it, the day you finally ask for that big promotion. You're in front of your mirror with your Starbucks coffee.

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Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by reach. agency app for details. Wow. For those listening, Sissy has a podcast of her own called Raising Boys and Girls. Raising Boys and Girls. And I'm just going to ask you

are more on the spot because we're on your podcast. Will y'all be on our podcast? We would love it. Okay. Good. We would love it. I'm a big fan of it. Oh, thank you. So if you're listening, you have kids, It's definitely referred to that as a resource.

Also, Sissy's Instagram. The video was posted on your account. I think I put it on both. Sissy Gaffin, Raising Boys and Girls, we try and put a lot on both places. But to summarize as we close, the points that you talked about in the video and here, as you're a parent approaching this situation,

first thing is stay calm, take breath. Two is be the source and be factual and age appropriate. Three, let the kids lead the conversation. Four, give the kids space to feel and yourself to feel for that matter. Five, answer questions honestly and age appropriately. Six, talk about what you can control. So these safety measures, as you were referring to earlier.

Seven, ask what would make them feel safe at school. Eight, talk about people that are helping. and how we can pray for them. I love that one. Next is acknowledge we don't have all the answers, but remind them of the truth you do know. And that's just great stuff, Sissy. So thank you for stepping up to the plate

and being a resource for so many people who don't know what to do. Thank you. Hopefully this is the first step for other people. And, yeah, we're just glad to know you. Me too, you all. Yeah. And where can people find you locally?

for services and counseling and day star counseling ministries yes and yeah and we're offering free counseling to covenant for how many counselors do you guys have i i don't know i should know 11 12 somewhere around there i know the five dogs but 11 or 12 people i'd have to get on my website and counter count on my fingers have you guys seen uh influx since yes yeah yeah yeah We've had a lot of calls. We've had a lot of calls from new families, and we've had a lot of calls from our current families because, you know, I think one of the things, being close to this,

I mean, I knew Catherine Coontz pretty well and just was bananas about her. And, but hearing kids talk about the kids that died, there just were so many families impacted by these families and Cindy Peek and Mr. Hill. I mean, he was beloved. I've heard so many stories about every single one of them. So I think the rings of impact of all of these lives, you know, I keep thinking Nashville is a small town and a big city and people love each other, which I'm so grateful for.

And so, yes, there's been an influx. Our counselors, I'm so grateful for my team because everybody keeps saying, I'll come in extra, whatever I can do, which every counselor in the city is doing right now. Do we miss anything? I don't think so. Y'all are awesome. Thanks, Sissy. Yeah. Thank you.