Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 165 | a life of raising 15 kids with katie davis and benji majors

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

In this episode, we got to speak with Katie Davis and Benji Majors about their incredible family life and the journey of adopting 13 girls from Uganda. We are in awe of this couple. Their story is amazing and you won't want to miss this one!! You can find Katie's book here! ▶ https://www.amazon.com/Safe-All-Along-Anxieties-Unshakable/dp/0593445112 This episode is sponsored by AG1 ▶ Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 Free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Go to https://www.drinkAG1.com/COUPLETHINGS. That’s https://www.drinkAG1.com/COUPLETHINGS. Check it out! Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to Couple Things with Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. And if this show is about things couples go through, these two have gone through a lot. Yes, Katie Davis and Benji Majors, who have 13 adopted girls from Uganda.

And two biological boys of their own. Can you imagine? No, and even talking to them, they just seemed like they just got it all figured out. They're the mellowest vibe out there. Yes. And they're super nice. Their story is amazing.

Katie wrote a book called Kisses from Katie in 2012. She wrote another book called Daring to Hope in 2017. One of those was a New York Times bestseller, which is nuts. And she also has a new book coming out now. It's called Safe All Along, Trading Our Fears and Anxieties for God's Unshakable Peace. They go through the whole process of how Katie adopted. after these 13 girls, the whole relationship process of bringing Benji into that family that they already had,

the faith that it took for them to move from Uganda back to the United States, just so many massive transitions and milestones and things that they had to kind of, like, healings they had to foster with these kids. Yeah, I learned so much from them. Yeah, talking about their transition from Uganda back to the U.S. and the struggles they had with that,

was really interesting. But what I love about the show is we get a peek behind the curtain of how different couples do life. And this couple does life in an extraordinary way. So we're really grateful and thankful that you two spent time with us, Katie and Benji, we're excited to get to know you better. And if you're interested in learning more about these two, we'll link their information down below. But go ahead and enjoy this one with Katie Davis and Benji Majors. What a treat it is to have Katie and Benji Majors here with us. Sean has been so excited to talk with you too. So thank you for joining us here in person. Sean is a little worried about my sweat situation. So we're just going to have to put up with this of your eye with

it. Tripping. That's why I wanted to sit on the outside there, Benji. So I didn't have to like deal with this. I'm excited because I love parents. I love moms. I love families. And I don't think we have had someone in your guys's situation on this show before. But please correct me. 13 kids? 15. 13 girls, two boys. Yes, that's right. Okay, I was trying to decide. I was trying to figure out in like the context if it was 13 and that included two boys or two boys on top?

Yeah. That's incredible. Oh, it's been fun. Yeah. And you had, I'm trying to remember all of the statistics, but you basically started adopting a lot of these girls when you were how old? I started, I had my first three that I found. fostered when I was 20. Yes.

And when I started fostering each of them, their sibling sets, and when I started fostering each of them, I wasn't always sure, like, oh, I'm definitely going to adopt these kids. There were kids I knew through the community we were living in in Uganda, and for different reasons.

They were in different situations where they didn't have family that could care for them. And so come and stay, and we would kind of look for family and see. And so ultimately, ended up going on to adopt 13 of them. Yeah, so I was fostering 13 of them when we met and eventually got married. And then we adopted them together, which was really sweet.

And we had other foster kids over the years that would live with us for a time. And then we're able to go back to family. Yeah. And then all 13 that we adopted are girls. And so, funny enough, when we had biological kids, God gave us two boys, which has been new and fun. Funny how God works that way. Yeah. And Benji, forgive me, but I want to, like, not plow through, but, like, ask a few questions regarding, like, the 23-year-old you before we get into you guys.

I'm, if you don't mind, I'm just going to take over because I love this. I am fascinated because we have had conversations with people who have openly said, like, they don't want kids. They're not a kid person. We've had conversations with families who are mixed where they came with kids and on both sides or adoption or all of these things. what was it in you at 18 moving to Uganda that switched and said I want to help kids I want them to live with me I want to foster not sure if they're going to be mine did you just know that from day one um I don't think I knew it moving to Uganda I had always wanted a big family even as like a small child which is kind of funny because I only had one brother okay um still have one brother yeah but yeah I grew up with just one brother so we were a relatively kind of small family but I always always was wanted. I mean, like, I used to watch Sound of Music and think, like, yes, I want that many kids. And then when I moved to Uganda, it was to work with young children in a kindergarten setting. And I got to know them and their siblings from just like being around the community

and just saw that the need was so huge. And so many kids either didn't have families to live with or they weren't able. They had a family to live with, but they weren't really able to, like, go to school and have their basic needs provided for them. And so I don't know, the needs. The need was just always so, so big. And I made some friends in the community that would say to me, like, hey, these kids don't have a place to go. Like, can they stay with you for a little while? And I was always just kind of of the mindset of like, oh my gosh, they don't have what they need. And I could help. And I maybe have something to give them. And so it was always kind of an easy yes. an easy yes which i which i love i love that so much but an easy yes to 13 girls is i love that

you can say that but the dynamic for you when you started taking on foster kids how did you manage that like within your heart of like some kids would go back to their families some you ultimately ended up adopting i think at one point you adopted and then they did return to their parents which is hard how do you work that dynamic within your family of we don't know how long you're going to be here but your family yeah and i don't know i just i'm so fascinated that's a really that's a great question and honestly i think like oh there are probably places where i wish that i had had a little bit more like forethought about that and obviously god has been very gracious to us even when we've kind of messed it up but i think i like if i do something i go all in so i don't think there

was ever like a time of, okay, this is just a foster kid and this is just temporary and maybe I'm going to hold back a little bit. Like if a child was in our home, like all of us, like myself and the other kids, like we were all in with loving that child as if they were going to be part of our family forever. And sometimes when they returned to biological family, it was like a huge celebration because we had had our eyes set on that from day one. And other times when they returned to biological family it was like really sad because we hadn't expected that to happen and so that's kind of a hard wrestle of wanting to celebrate because it's good to go and live with your biological family and also just feeling so gutted because this is a child you've loved as your own

who's now yeah going to live with someone else and you feel that deep loss even though you kind of like intellectually know that it's good it doesn't doesn't feel good yeah How did you guys meet? Yeah, I mean, it's funny enough. She grew up in Brentwood. I grew up in Franklin. Both grew up like here in Middle Tennessee, but we didn't meet until over in Uganda.

I think I was headed that way in 2010, partly for a mission and a purpose and a reason, and partly because I think some people who were following you at the time, Mindy Blag, was kind of like, And when you go, it's just a woman, you've got to meet. Katie, and she's from your neck of the woods and, you know, all this kind of thing. And so when I showed up in town, I mean, you're already, you're already doing the thing.

I showed up in 2010 a couple years after you've been there, and we met at Bible study dinner. We had a bunch of mutual friends, and then Jinja in Uganda where I live was like a super small community. And basically, if you showed up and you were American, like, you knew, like, everybody knew everybody pretty quickly. So I'd been, a group of us had been meeting to do like a little Wednesday night Bible study at my house. And I think we were like, hell, let's invite the new guy. And then I think there was like a New Year's Eve party. I don't know. We all kind of ran in a pretty tight circle because there weren't like a ton of foreigners in the area.

You forgot about the New Year's Eve party? I forget about almost everything, but I hope I'm getting better. Yeah, so it was interactions like that. I mean, I pretty much from the get-go, I was like, oh, this is great. I like this girl, this can be great. I asked you out to coffee at some point in there. She said no. The good reasons, good reasons.

I'm going to ask you out to coffee. You said no again. For even better reasons. This is the second time. This is true. I was expecting that one to be a yes. No. I was skeptical.

But the third time, you worked it out. The third time I had to ask. Yeah. You were like, wait. I didn't mean no the second time. Right, right. Because I had said no so many times. And then I was like with my girlfriend's like, oh, he's never going to ask again.

So I had to ask. Yeah. Right. My mentality at that time was like, well, she said no. It's pretty clear. Like, I have stuff to do here and was pretty focused on. yeah ministry life other friendships all that and but then the day came yeah it did and when did explain the engagement i'm curious how did you do that oh let's see uh well first props to

our youngest daughter in the home because at the time she would have been four she was little yeah so little so little so little and she kept the secret for like a whole week which like you guys know his parents yeah it's it's amazing like so kudos to her and everyone else but so the girls all knew

yeah they were in on it the girls out talked with them they all knew he had me over to his house he had he rented this little tiny house that like overlooked the lake and it was so

beautiful and it had this big yard so he invited me over to the And I thought we were just, you know, having a date. We did a little picnic. And then our very good friends were babysitting the girls and, like, snuck them all over. And so they were all, like, hiding in these bushes. Hiding in the bushes. It was the best.

It was so sweet. What year was that? 2014. Yes. I agree. Yeah. And then got married pretty shortly after that. It was actually kind of a long,

engagement, which I don't recommend. It was not fun. But there were a lot of logistics as far as like trying to get family over to Uganda and wanting to give the girls like some time to just kind of like adjust and feel their feelings. And so we were engaged for like eight months and then got married at the beginning of 2015. I think relatively that's a pretty short engagement. Oh, I guess it depends on the sort of.

It felt long. What is that about, I feel like engagement and marriage, it's like one of the few times. where you make a really life-altering decision and then you like we don't do anything about it for a long time I feel like you make a really life-altering decision and you like you do it do it I remember thinking I mean not to be traumatic here but I really disliked engagement because I felt like I was in limbo it's like we would have these conversations about like we're gonna move in together we're gonna merge finances we're gonna do the but you're so like yeah yeah so it's like are we more than dating or are we less like it was so i really didn't like let me just present the other side of the argument here though

i feel like when we got pregnant the first time you're like i'm not ready to be at that but then you got nine months to be it then it's kind of nice to have the months yeah it's like but you're already like you're committed like there's a baby there you know yeah but it's like you know with the engagement it's like you're not quite there yet okay i i Wait, I want to go back because we have a lot of followers who have asked us these questions before that we have wanted to be able to share. In the situation where you start dating and kids are involved on one side, how first do you make that step of like introducing, talking about, taking that leap and having faith in someone to protect your children? And how do you introduce that? What do you look for?

Is that something that you're just like, I have 13 daughters. Just throwing it out there. Yeah, I mean, I feel like in some ways we did that pretty poorly. So I don't know. This advice will come from a place of like, oh, what we could have done better. I mean, I do think the kind of bonus about it is like, I think that's why I said no to dating for a while. Because I was just like that, like I just don't even know what that would look like. Like I'm so committed here to this family already that already.

exists like without somebody else but it did force us to have like the really serious conversations like right away you know date number one is like do you want kids do you want more kids do you want biological kids like what is this going to look like yeah so you're having you're having the real conversations fast and I think as far as introducing it to the kids I they liked Benji and they knew him as like a person in our community and a family friend and so I think I very naively assumed like they're going to be pumped but of course a child is having all these questions as far as like what is this mean and like what does it look like to have to share my relationship with my mom and is she still going to love me the same you know

there are all kinds of questions that I think I just over breakfast one day was like hey guys I'm dating Benji and they were all just like Not all of them but a lot We're just kind of like yeah we don't know We don't know how we feel about that which is totally fair Like and they were I don't know They were probably spanned like four to 16ish age wise So this is a big big change

And we tried to have lots of conversations about it But of course everybody had like their own feelings and how do you digest that going into a new relationship of dating i mean i guess you're either like a kid person and on board or not but yeah i mean i think we like kids yeah it seems like you're pretty thoughtful about it though like with you know the word what i wish i had been way more thoughtful uh would have been nice i think the word i always used for like our dating engagement was or is um like sobriety very very just sober and sobering and the same sense of like some people date and like get engaged and not to say we didn't we're not like romantic

or lovey-dovey we are but my sense of it was it's not like other people they're like maybe we'll get married and move to France and go get a baguette every day and you know walk our dog down by the river it's like you're not your head's not up in the clouds dreaming about what if we someday that it's more like hey you know these are like real people involved like children and we love and like what, you know, this is going to happen at home sometimes. It's going to be like disagreements or whatever. Like, maybe mom goes out somewhere and like everyone's home with dad. What are you going to do?

You know, it's like, so it just felt like very sobering and sense of like, oh, I love Katie. I love the daughters. We're like crafting this new relationship thing, but it all felt very sobering. There wasn't some big like, uh, and then we'll all like, you know, travel the world together in a big hot air balloon and do this whole. It's like, you know, just like good reality, I feel like, what a lot of my experience was. When you guys started dating, did you already have all 13 girls? Yeah.

Yeah, I did. So did you, to a certain extent, feel like you were dating? Oh, yeah. All of them? Because you had to craft a relationship with every girl. Definitely. That was a huge part and piece of it. How do you approach that?

How long did it take you to learn their names? first of all. Over under a month. You know, not too long because credit to my girls, they, you know, they're adamant to make themselves known and they're all very distinct and have these great unique personalities. And so, you know, it's, you learn very on that like, oh, that's, that's just her. That's like what she does.

And, like, you can't confuse the names. So if you guys came over and, like, spent the day at our dinner table and they're all over, you'd be like, oh, I get it. This isn't just like a room of, you know, samey type people. These are girls with, like, some really great, strong personalities. And they were young. So, like, they were adamant to be like, hey, this is my name. You're going to know who I am.

It's like, yeah, awesome. And I feel like you did a really good job of intentionally kind of getting to know them where they were at. Like, okay, this one loves soccer. I'm going to go play soccer. Okay, this one wants to play Scrabble. I'm going to play Scrabble. Okay, this one's trying to figure out how to get her first job. We're going to talk about job interview stuff.

I feel like it was fun to watch you kind of get to know everybody's individual interests and then be interested in those things for the sake of like wanting a relationship. And that for me was like, okay, I think you're the one. Yeah. How did it take you some time to kind of offer that like opportunity up for you guys? Like did you date for a certain amount of time? We didn't date for super long, but we were friends for probably four years. And I mean, that was seeing each other multiple times a week at Bible study or church or we had this interesting house set up.

A lot of the homes in Uganda have like a house and then kind of a, I think what would have originally been like a staff type quarters, but like kind of another house in the back. And we never had staff live there, but we often had, like, different people who were homeless or who were really sick and needed to be, we lived right on, right near the local hospital. So people who needed to be near the hospital, maybe families whose kids were at risk of going into foster care. And instead, we said, like, no, actually, like, before that happens, what if mom and the kids come and stay here and we can give some extra support? And so there was one man in particular who was homeless and had some illness and different stuff going on who lived back there and became a new believer. And so Benji was eager to have, he had so many questions. I was eager to have Benji kind of take that and answer his questions. And so he would come over to meet with David and then be in the backyard with the girls and fixing bikes.

And so I think life in Uganda is super relational and just like when you're friends with someone, you see them all the time, which is different topic, but has been really shocking about living in America. So it was many years of lots of just friend interaction and relating with him and watching him relate with my kids and relate with other people in our community. before I was finally like, okay, we can, no, let's actually have coffee. Let's do that. What you're saying the culture in America is not, you don't see the people you love often. Yeah, I just, I feel like people are busier here than anything that we were used to in Uganda. And our community was so small. Like, you walked pretty much anywhere you needed to go.

Like, if you had to get in the car, you were going somewhere like a little bit far. And so even on your way walking somewhere, you would see your friends and then if you went to the grocery store you would bump into those same people yeah like everybody was just kind of around that's so interesting when did you guys move back here then about a year and a half so still in culture shop probably how because some days yeah yeah yeah because how many years were you were in were you in Uganda I was in Uganda 15 years and You were there. Like 11?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 10, maybe 11. Somewhere right in there. What brought you back here? Just kind of, I mean, we get that question a lot. It was a lot of different things.

We had been, we were on the tail end of like lockdown and reopen and locked down and reopen for COVID. And the way Uganda did it, it was completely locked down. So nobody could go out and nobody could come in. And we had several of our girls that were going to college here in Nashville. And so we kept getting locked. like away from them but then you know I would be afraid to travel here to visit any of them because you didn't know if you could yep get back in and so that was hard and schooling for our

kids who were still at home was hard because schools would close but there wasn't really the opportunity to do like online learning um so we'd been kind of doing school at home and trying to figure that out and for a couple of our daughters we needed to be near like some better medical care it was just kind of a culmination of a lot of things and we had been here for a couple months early in 2021 and kind of thought like oh my gosh are we going to move here and then we were like no we are not yeah we're not going to move here and we went back to Uganda and then we came for what we thought was a three week trip for one of our daughters to get married and on that trip it was like just very very clear

no we really are we're going to move here so we kind of then unexpectedly moved sent Benji back to Uganda to grab like you know the laptops and the birth certificates and things that you like need to have with you for the wedding right yeah so

and we I don't know at first we were kind of like maybe we'll do this for a year see how it goes then we were like maybe we'll do it for one more year yeah people are always like Are you ever going back? And it's kind of like, I don't know. I mean, we go back.

We've been back several times. I was just there for like a week. And the kids and I were there for most of the summer. I don't know. I've never been to Uganda. We kind of go back and forth right now. Never been to Uganda. It's really beautiful.

It's really beautiful. You guys should totally come. Bring our kids. Yeah. What's the name of the town? Your kids love it. The town is ginger. Ginger, Uganda.

It's right on the lake. It's right by the river. It's really gorgeous. Everybody's so nice. I love it. Yeah, not only do you have all the great people and culture and just like the country itself's amazing, but then you have the specific town we're in

almost has like a little small town feel to it. I mean, it's probably huge and developed, but it feels like a small town. But it's right on Lake Victoria and the start of the Nile River. So you have all that adventure stuff like kayaking and rafting. a huge community like specifically for that it's pretty exciting so if you like water it sounds like a good spot have you been spending your time since you've been back in Nashville dingy ooh let's see um unemployed there for a bit probably should have learned a new language

or picked up some new hobbies but i'm sure i didn't make the most of that time and then no you did for like the he's he's underselling it for like the first year he was the primary like parent while I could not figure out how to do anything in America and was, like, freaking out. So, it was. Well, and just to back you up, I mean, I... It was good. It was good. I had some adult years, like, in America.

Right. Unlike you. And I had zero. Yeah. So little stuff, like, tags on the car or, you know, stuff like that. It's... All of that's humbling for anybody. Yeah.

Yeah. Don't know how to do that. But I have done that, like, once before. So at least in that kind of stuff, I could have. help. Yeah, so kind of did that for a while, did a bunch of interviews for nonprofits and churches. We found our church through one of a different interview at a different church. And then now I work for Project Connect here in Nashville. Am I allowed to name grow? Yeah, please. Project Connect, Inc. No, I don't know if it's an ink. And we do poverty alleviation

here in Nashville, so working with either maybe previously homeless or those experiences. homelessness, people coming out of recovery centers or halfway houses, just trying to, I don't know what the right way to say it is, but be a resource and a community for those experiencing poverty in Nashville, helping them kind of set goals, what do you want to do? For some people they may say, like, I want to make $3 more, you know, or some. I say, like, I want an apartment, like my own apartment. And just kind of helping connect them with the next steps to make that kind of stuff happen. So it's been good.

It's also been very sobering, my theme word of the day, I guess. But super black, I mean, just the greatest people you could ever imagine. And for whatever reason, life's just been really hard. And, yeah. Do you feel like as a couple, you two are. on mission like together like one do you share a similar mission and then two like how do you navigate that on a daily basis you know i think i mean i think part of that was or that's part of what was even hard in moving here was in Uganda every day felt super purposeful um we were

doing kind of different things vocationally benjie was an elder in our church um and i was working with Amazima and on the leadership team of that nonprofit. So we were kind of like work was a little bit different for us, but still like, yeah, our mission was so similar. And I mean, obviously our family is like our primary mission. And here, it's just been hard, hard to find that. I'm still working with Amazima, the nonprofit that works out of Uganda. So a lot of my like brain energy is still going overseas to Uganda.

and doing phone calls and meetings there. And then he's now doing the Project Connect thing, which is awesome. And I'm just kind of starting, we were renting a place in Murfysboro and have only been in Nashville for five or six months. So I feel like now that we're closer to his work, I'm just kind of starting to get to know some of the clients and the community up there. And they're really awesome. I think finding a church to plug into has been huge for us.

and our church community has just been so kind. And so I feel like we feel more like we can be on mission together there. But even at home and with the family, it's been more challenging because we had a lot more time together. It felt like in Uganda. In Uganda, I don't know, it's not super safe to be outside once it gets dark. So, or not outside. I mean, we could be outside in the yard.

But you wouldn't want to be like going somewhere really, especially after COVID and stuff happened and so we always had dinner together like every single night there was never like rarely would there be like some kind of activity in the evening and now our kids have stuff and like that's great and we want them to be plugged in and we want them to have friends and we want them to be part of the cheer squad or the track team or whatever these different things are that they do but like I don't know to have dinner together in the evening is now like you know, we fight for that. And it doesn't happen every day. It happens like a couple times a week. And I can kind of feel it. Like we've gone like two or three days without having dinner together.

I will tell like our teenagers like, no, no things tonight. No, you can't babysit for someone else. Like no, you got to come home. So I feel like we're starting to find a better rhythm with how to be on mission like with our family together. But it's been challenging. It feels like there are a lot of different things here that are pulling families. just in opposite directions. I mean, even in Uganda, we both predominantly, like, worked from home. And so even now for him to, like, leave in the morning and come home in the evening, I'm like, ah, how do I do this without you? Wow.

What's the age spread now? Your youngest are oldest. Okay. So we actually have nine who don't live with us. Oh, my gosh. They're all grown up. And they're in college. or working most of them are in the Nashville area so that has been really sweet in this season

to be close to them one of them's married and then I don't know why that makes me really sad already to think about like our kids it goes fast and everybody says it but like you just blink and they're in college yeah um and so then we have I have to count we have six still at home so four in high school and four year old and a six year old so we're okay you still have four Four and six. Are those your two boys? Those are boys. They're little.

They're fun. They're at home. I homeschool them and then another one of our daughters. And so you're home with me in the daytime. It is so interesting though, like even having nine, like out there in the world, like doing their amazing things, you still have six at home. And the spread is set, like, having, like, a senior in high school and then, like, a four-year-old. It feels like you're, like, trying to carry, like, a ladder by yourself and, like, both.

There was like a 19 year old doing like applying to college or internship, you know, like jobs. And then you have a four-year-old like potty training and like learning how to the alphabet. And you're just like, we're so spread out like on both ends of all the parenting things. So interesting. Does that help you appreciate though? Like the like the four-year-old phase because we're pretty set on like all our kids being close in age. Yeah. Which is great.

But I also have already felt like that feeling you were. alluding to earlier, I'm like, dang, I want them to be small again. So it's like, I guess to extend that where you have a four-year-old for a decade and a half, you know, in the house, that's crazy, I guess, but it just keeps going. Yeah. Definitely, it's definitely made me really, like, try to consciously make an effort to, like, enjoy our little guys. Yeah.

Or just because I'm looking at teenagers going like, oh, my gosh, I remember when you were this little, you know, and just feeling like, oh, it really. It really does fly. And it's fun. I mean, I actually really enjoy having the whole age spread because just to watch their, like, unique relationships with each other is really sweet. Like, there wasn't school this morning. And so a couple of our girls went and had a sleep over at one of their older sisters' house,

which is so fun. But then one of our big girls came downstairs and was, like, interacting with the four-year-old, and he was showing her what he had been learning at school. And it's just like, it's really precious to see them. I think I was worried specifically when we got pregnant with our first son. Just like, oh, no, the age gap is so big. Like, what if they don't know each other or don't love each other? I don't know.

I thought the age gap was going to be like this problem. And it's actually just been like a really cool blessing. But it is also, I mean, a lot of our girls are really close in age. And that is also really sweet because they just, they're, each other's best buddies and especially as they've like gone out into the world and um are in college or working or doing their adult things to see them like they still meet up together in the library and they still have coffee and lunch together or they you know invite sisters who are still at home to come over for a sleepover it's anyway yeah it's great either way i think close in age

is also really fun because i've seen them have like this really close friendship i think you convince me of having 15 kids right now. It's awesome because it's hard. Yeah, yeah. I'm in, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, he's in. Not having, adopting 15 kids.

Yeah. I won't have 15 kids. There's probably, like, not a more favorite moment for me with our children when, like, our senior in high school looks at our four-year-old and says, oh, when I was little, you know what I used to do? That kind of stuff, it's just like, you don't sit back and watch. You know, whether it's like eating a piece of. candy in a specific way like whatever the little thing is but just seeing the kind of passing down

of knowledge from old to young is just so sweet and i just feel like it invites the the little guys into like oh they grow up and be like oh my big sister taught me this you know super sweet do you have connection with any of your girls with their biological families because i know that's usually that tends to be different amongst each kid yeah I mean, we have, when they were little, I think I really tried to, like, foster that as much as possible. And so any biological family that they had that we knew we would try to have over to the house sometimes, or we would go visit them sometimes. Or we used to even, like, the day before Christmas, we would get together Christmas gifts and go and drop them off.

It was actually really funny because one year we did it when we went, their five or six, like, sibling sets. So five or six places that we would go and visit and drop off some Christmas goodies and little Noah he might have been, I don't know, four. He said, who's my biological family? We're like, oh, you only get one. You're just stuck with us, ma'am. And so, and then now as they've gotten older,

we've kind of just said, like, yeah, that's up to you. And so some of them really choose that and really, like, really dive into that relationship and like that's awesome and some of them have kind of said like no i'm i'm not super interested in that connection and so now now that they've gotten older i think we kind of just leave that ball in their court and say like yeah that's was yours to choose how do you navigate that within i mean like within your mama heart of sharing your babies with another mama and i don't know i feel like the tear between wanting, I don't want to say wanting that domain, but wanting that

to be yours. Yeah, you can feel a little territorial about it. Do you have that feeling or how do you navigate those conversations, I guess? Yeah, I think I've definitely had that feeling for sure and like try to try to fight against it for their sake and just I feel like really early on the Lord really just kind of said to me or like dropped into my heart like you love all of your kids like I you know I can have 15 kids and I can love each one of them like individually like why can't somebody love two moms or two dads or a mom and a grandma and an auntie you know other situations are also different but um yeah and so I just I try to hold onto that that like you know we have played different unique roles in their lives,

but there's nothing wrong with that. Uganda fosters that a little bit better. Like extended family is a big thing, and like it would not be uncommon for you to call your mom and all your mom's sisters, the name mom. Or, you know, you could even maybe sometimes call an older sibling mom or, you know, a lot of times you consider your cousins, your siblings, because you've all just kind of grown up together.

So people will say, like, my cousin brother, meaning like my cousin, who's basically my brother because we were raised by the same parents. And so there's a little bit more grace for just like family lines looking different or blurry or like, yeah, we're kind of all one giant family with all our different extensions. And so I think that helped the conversations

with the girls when they were little is it wasn't quite as clear cut. But yeah, I think we try to be pretty open-handed about it. You wrote a book. Congratulations, not your first book. Safe all along, though. Yeah. What inspired this book?

Ooh. You know, it's a little funny. I have author friends who say, like, I'm never going to write a book about marriage or I'm never going to write a book about parenting because then that's going to be, like, attacked. And so I actually had the idea for this book many years ago and just kind of felt like, yeah, this is what I want to write about next. I want to write about peace and like how we kind of discover and live out of the peace of God.

And then over the next like two years, it was like we had a couple family emergencies. There was COVID. It was like everything just we moved to America. Everything just kind of turned upside down. And so then I went back to my publishing team and I was like, never mind I can't write the book I don't know anything about that but I had a good friend to say to me like you know I think people don't always want to learn from an expert I think sometimes people want to learn from somebody who's like actually going to struggle along with them and so I was like okay maybe and so I started out of a place of like my own pretty deep like I was dealing with anxiety like I have never dealt with before of just feeling like basically everything that I once thought I was in control of, which I was never in control of anyway, but you know, my family and my kids

and the way our life was going to look, just that control had been completely taken away from me in all of those areas. And again, not that the control was ever really mine, but there was the illusion of, yeah, I know how to do this. know what to do next. I know what our life is going to look like next. And that was all just gone. And so going, okay, God, you know, says here in the Bible, like peace that passes understanding. And Jesus says, my peace, I leave with you and cast all your anxieties on me. And, okay, I have all this head knowledge of what I think that's supposed to look like. But like, I don't actually feel that and kind of right in the middle of it all before we moved but post-COVID we had this

experience where we took all the kids camping a lot of them had come home which was super fun well for me it was super fun my kids will listen to this and be like that was not even fun mom but a lot of them that were here doing university came home because university went all online And so they came back to Uganda and were at home with us. And so we got this, like, really sweet, extended period of time with our kids who had, like, already launched. And that doesn't happen a lot of times. Sometimes once they launch, they launch. And so we actually got, like, this sweet extended period of them being home.

So we went on this camping trip, and it was out by the river. And, like, that had become kind of a fun family activity we did, like, to kayak or paddleboard or go spend time in the river. And they're bigger now when they were good, sweet. swimmers. And so Benji and one of our daughters jumped in to this current that kind of, it like went out and then it took them around in a circle and brought them back to the shore. And so I was like, okay, let's do it. Let's go again. So I convinced my daughter to go again with me. And I don't know if we overshot it or if the current actually changed in the middle. But whatever happened, she and I, I mean, we had on life vests, but we were like not in the current that brought you back to the shore. We

were like out in the middle of the river and it was moving so fast and i don't think anybody else thought we were dying like benjy didn't think we were dying i don't think our daughter did but i was like this is it we're gonna like we're gonna go down this river and go over a waterfall you know you have this like movie scene in your head so i'm like swimming frantically and reaching for branches one snaps off in my hand i mean like worst nightmare i finally get a branch and can like pull myself up But our daughter's, like, way over here. So I'm, like, reaching for her and watch her, like, zoop around the corner of, like, in the river.

I can't see her anymore. She's moving so fast. So I, like, pull myself up on this rock and I'm imagining, like, every worst-case scenario. Waterfalls, crocodiles. Oh, my. Everything. Like, I'm, like, already imagining that we're going to spend the rest of family

vacation, like, searching the river for a body or something. um anyway obviously she was fine um so benji and the girls like came to check on me and she came running from this way and was like yeah i got out some fishermen helped me i'm like oh i thought like i thought you're dead i kind of played it cool until i got to benjie and then when he hugged me i just like sob and so i was like i thought i lost her um anyway all that to say benjie kind of took me up higher on this bank and from up on top of the river bank you could see like the whole river it looked small you know like a little little path and you could see like oh there was a still place over here where she probably could have gotten out and there was a little island over here

that she could have swam over to and oh look there are some guys that could have helped her um and i just remember standing there and thinking like oh like this is how god sees it and I'm just down here in real life, like, in the waves, just like thinking, everything is a catastrophe, and this is going to be the end of us, and we're all going to die. And just really, really felt like God saying, like, no, you are safe. Like, you were safe all along. Like, you weren't going to die. There were all these different good things that could have happened.

And I think I was living like that, and I had spent the last couple years living just in this state. of like, I don't know what's going to happen next. And God was like, well, I do. It's okay. I can see the whole thing. Like, I'm going to bring you to safety. And so that was kind of the inspiration as I plugged along in writing the book. It's like, okay, I know that.

How do I actually like live as if that is true? So how do you define peace? If we're defining it as like chiller or sober, I feel like Benj's got that dialed in. He really does. Yes. Is it like, is it an understanding and a perspective or like what, what have you learned about peace through writing the book? Yeah, I think, I mean, I think a lot of us do define it as just kind of like chill and, you know, we imagine like peaceful things, you know, like, oh, the beach or the mountains or whatever kind of your thing is or like, oh, I'll be in this like bubble bath with a glass of wine. And the reality is, like, those things can happen, and they're really nice, but, like, so temporary, right?

Then they're over, they're over, and the baby's crying again, and you've got to get them all to school and whatever the things are that feel chaotic. And so the New Testament word for peace actually translates in the Greek to wholeness. And that was, like, really impactful to me to just think about, like, okay, what does it mean to be, like, whole? and God makes us whole and God gives us our identity as like people who can experience wholeness and so I think what I'm still learning very much like I wrote the book

but I'm very much like not an expert I think it'll be a lifelong learning process of just like okay what you know what does it look like to know in my head and in my heart that I am safe and I am whole because like Jesus has saved me and I have like eternity is certain right like so no matter what happens here and no matter how

disastrous it is like we we are going to be okay because we have this certain end that is we will live with God forever and so for me it's looked like really trying to like reframe my thoughts when I do feel that anxiety rising when I do feel like you know I can race ahead in my mind and make like the plan for every possible disaster that's going to happen to my family. And it's like, how much time do I waste? Making plans for things that like have not happened are not going to happen when instead I can just know that like, God is keeping me safe. God is keeping us whole. And like, yeah, any pain he brings ultimately like we are going to get through it and we're going to get to the other side how do you hold those like the idea of peace

and like hey we know we know where this ends like the finish line and eternity is certain right but then also like the mission that we were talking about earlier the purpose and i'm not a planner naturally but inevitably as i've gotten married and you have kids you start like kind of stacking plans it's like all right well you know they're going to go to school here and then they're going to do this summer camp and whatever it's like how do you in an i don't On top of that, like careers and ambitions, it's like, how do you hold peace with just, you know, daily life and trying to, like, build something, whether it's a career or family or whatever? Do you want to answer? I didn't write the book.

You read it. Many times. I did. Yeah. And, you know, I never, I never, I love that story. I never liked the story because it makes me sound very insightful when I'm the guy on the riverbank. who's like, Katie, come up here and see what I see about this river. So you were very kind to me in your storytelling.

You seem like an insightful guy. I'll back around that. It's true. It could be. Someday, maybe it'll hit me. But it hits others. That's very kind. I think in day-to-day, you know, I think of our little guys.

I'm put in the context of having a one and three-year-old, right? So maybe more in the three-year-old context, maybe you have a child who is kind of losing, it because they don't have the blue race car or the thing like it's nap time or it's bedtime whatever and it's like but you know it's time to go on the long car ride and be strapped in and they're like blue race car you know it's whatever and like nothing's good nothing's great I'm not saying you know this is great for a child to be on to the parents but then like they get this race car you know and they get in their hand and it's just like they're just they're holding this really kind of silly thing.

It's a blue race car. But your child gets the thing, and it's just like, you know, and they're like napping within 30 seconds. They're asleep or they're in the car. They're happy, but they have this thing. We don't have a child who does this. We do. All the time.

Yeah. And I just think about that in like life. So you're talking like peace, but also ambition and all this. There's got to be these truths. I think Katie's hit down it. It's like there's things that like, I'm screaming and yearning for, and that I get hold of something true and good and purposeful,

you know, from where we sit, it's from above, it's from God, and you hold this thing, and it's just like, I got the blue race car, you know? And what I think is cool about that, if I can connect it in an insightful way, you're sleeping, but what are you doing when you're sleeping? You're dreaming. And so, like, the ability to be at peace and be at rest

allows the ability to men to dream, to think about, you know, the consequential parts of life. What comes next? What's going to take me to get to that next thing? For a three-year-old, it might be a little silly because they're like, if I can slay this dragon outside the castle, treasure chest. But in adult life, it's like you hold this foundational truth. And that great, you know, centering thing that's there for you

allows you to get to a place to just dream and ambition, life, what's next, what's tomorrow. I don't know. So that's the starting place is what you're saying. That's a starting place. And I like that because I think often. Blue race car. At least for me, I'm like holding on to the wrong thing, right? Like I'm dreaming and planning and holding onto that.

Like these things must happen. And then the truth of who God is is just kind of out here floating. But if we can really grab onto, this is who God is, this is who I am because of God. This is my eternity that is safe with him. I still need to make my plan. and have some dreams about my life and I'm definitely a dreamer. I think we both are about like,

oh, what could this look like and what could that look like? But that's not the thing that I'm holding on to, right? So all of those things are good and like as God allows them to happen, great, I'm going to step into those things. But if he doesn't allow those things to happen, that's okay too.

Because that's not the ultimate. Wow. That's like, that's really profound. found and it's well it's it's thanks for the blue race car that was really that was really helpful dude benjie dropping some more my book blue race car I know that every time Benji talks I'm like

why don't you write the book you should write the books it's amazing what I mean what a stronger place of like security and like what I don't know why the term anti-fragile comes to mind where it's like oh okay great like you're good

but I believe it was Paul that said the purpose of life or the goal of life is not to achieve or to build it's for a life of peace I think which is like so countercultural for sure for like for us living in the United States so all that to say you listening should definitely check out Katie's book safe all along to hopefully maybe take a step towards living a life more of peace I just think we were in church yesterday and it was a really different service where they just had people go up and tell the story about their stories of how God is good and it was like it was like really profound and um did you guys

go up it didn't there's like lines so that's my excuse benjie i'm sorry i do have stories though and i could share it but it was people who had like one couple had an ectopic pregnancy lost the pregnancy then they got pregnant again and it was amazing right but then in that process they found out the mom had a tumor and it was like this wild roller coaster and it was like highs and lows and I was just thinking about man faith I think is maybe the only key to a piece like that where it's like it's the through line of it doesn't matter if it's good or bad it's like now you're the rock is there and the rock is unchanging permanent steady and then like you know everything else is just kind of part of the experience part of the

adventure and i was like wow that is not the purpose of god for sure is not like to make us feel peaceful i don't think but it's like a really nice fruit yeah um so anyway yeah what a what a beautiful topic an important important subject so thank you yeah as the takeaway question for both of you I want you to, like, answer it as if you're talking to your kids, but hopefully, like, a takeaway for everyone. After having lived in Uganda and America and helping raise 15 kids, you've seen different tiny little humans from all over every context of personality and character and interests, what's, in your eyes,

maybe the most important thing to teach a kid and teach a kid and to teach. today's world. Ooh. That's deep. Well, I mean, by takeaway you mean we get to take that and go away now? You want, you want answers.

You want answers, you have four-year-old ranging to a daughter who just got married. I feel like you have wisdom from every parent in the whole world at the moment, but I would love to know your answer. I can go first Yeah I mean funny because it's kind of like the Sunday school answer right like Jesus Which our four-year-old does sometimes now But yeah I mean I think it's like what we are talking about right now like this is who Jesus is and because of that this is who you are and because of that like you are loved and

And you are safe and you are cherished in a world that is going to tell you, you are not. I mean, like, the world is constantly telling us, like, you are not loved. And actually, you are not good enough. And you are definitely not safe. And so, like, we have to have that foundation in Jesus and who he is and who we are because of that. I mean, almost to even be able to function. And so, yeah, I think just teaching a child of their love, that they are loved and they are valued and they are safe is super important.

Wow. I agree with this answer. Yeah, definitely your answer, and with that too, just I think as you're saying value too, I'm thinking also just like, worth and not in the sense of like you're worthy of everything my child and all praise or whatever but just like you know I hope our family was a timely encapsulations you growing up of like your place of worth and value in like this little unit and like that grew to like our community around us in Uganda that again my children were part of before I ever showed up you know they had

great tremendous worth there now they have great worth like in this really different cultural context living here in the States. And I, you know, I know it's all been accompanied for so many of them in different ways by some really strange kinds of different. Maybe the word is affliction. I'm saying that because I'm thinking of, if we're talking about our friend Paul, who's been mentioned, you know, I think of him saying like one of our favorite things, just like this light momentary affliction is working for you an eternal weight of glory

and just kind of like a comfort for even like each of our children a sense of like they're like rough days like there are Mondays that are not present's day holidays and like they're like they're rough and like you're going to face afflictions and worries and troubles and sorrows but like to be honest those things as big as they are and as like definitive as they seem they're pretty light and momentary compared to what God's doing with you through you and all. around you you know it's in its perspective but i mean i think not to be all plug in the book but safe along or safe all along even just like as a phrase i mean that idea of just like what's going on around you affliction it's light and momentary but like what god's doing is eternal and super weighty and important and like you're going to get used in some way in that process like he's he's really delighted to use us and use his people which is really fun so i hope they see you know that like their worth and like the weightiness of you know what god's doing through them sweet it's been really special so our oldest is obviously only three we're not in your shoes yet

but she turns four in october so she's like three and a half i'd say the past month probably in particular she has been asking asking so many questions about Jesus in particular. And she goes to a little like mom's day out where they teach it. But last night, I just thought it was so funny, but also so cute and just powerful. I was putting her to bed. And she, out of nowhere, I said, mommy, am I going to die? And I was like, okay, I knew this question was going to come at some point.

She's been hanging out with her cousins who are older. And I'm sure she was talking about dying and turning into a dog. I was like, you only got, you had to get this from your cousin. Yeah. And she's like, I don't want to turn into a dog. And we started talking about Jesus. And as we were talking about Jesus, she just started giggling. Like, the happiest of ever, like, seen her.

And I was like, this is so cool. It's so cool to witness. Like, even just, like, her saying his name and giggling, I was like, that is so powerful. So it's so fun. So sweet. It's so cool to see. I was leaving work. You were out of town.

I had our little four-year-old at work. It was a long day, hard meetings, just someone like, content and we're driving home and he was in his car seat in the back and drive home and I was in my little like kind of huff and puff decompressed got to go home and be present stage and out of the back seat he just goes I have decided oh Jesus like just started singing that and I mean talk about like an airplane taking off and I was cruising within seconds just like my goodness here's a little guy with like nothing to do in the back seat and just like I know a song I can sing yeah it's so cool and I feel like I learned so much you know this was really insightful so thank you last question

since you have 15 kids and might not often get a think about this what is your favorite thing about katie and what's your favorite thing about benjie um I I mean you For you, Katie, I just, I like that you are who you are. I'm not saying that you're some stubborn, you know, unchangeable, you know, forced to be reckoned with whatever. You can be and all that. But just the fact that, like, I can come home, come find you wherever you're at. Maybe we're not home or we're out, but, you know, I'll be gone for maybe like 30 minutes

about the time I get home. She's got three other families coming to join our table and break bread with us and fill our home or you know you can just you can see maybe the living room on a Saturday morning getting slightly declutter and you go oh it's Saturday morning coffee and there's going to be some great people coming to fill our house and just because of you and how big of a table that you always set and um I mean from the words of others how love they are by that quality of you so I just love that and I hope I'm not being lazy by being like oh can you figure it out i should probably also set some tables of my own thank you um i love many things

about you but i think the beard i like the beard has grown on me um yeah i think i think just your steadiness um and i can tend to be like emotionally quite volatile um You have 13 girls. Let's just say that. But you just are like such a steady, consistent presence, like in our home, in our church, in, you know, at Project Connect, wherever you are. Like, I could never do his job. I would be a wreck all the time. But just your steadiness.

And I think it really just comes from a deep faith and a deep confidence, like, in who God is. And so I feel like that has just taught me a lot about who God is. And just, yeah, has caused me to want more of that, to want to be more steady. You're more consistent. Thank you. I was eavesdropping on a little private conversation there. Wow. Have you guys answered that question?

We have. I have. Did we miss it? We'll go watch it. We'll have to Google it. Yeah. I know. To summarize, I love Andrews, just, like, sense of adventure.

You never know which direction he's going in, ever. And I'm, like, type A, plan out my whole life in the world, and it's just fun. It keeps me on my toes. Is it always fun? I think Sean is, like, one of the most incredible. You got, like, just, you could do whatever you want. It's awesome. But you're like humility and meekness, not in like a timid way, but it's like, I don't know.

It's like this pure humility that I've never seen. It's pretty cool. So that's my answer. Anyway, thank you guys for joining. This has been a real true. Katie Benji. It's so fun. I feel like I learned so much.

I know. Can we be friends? Yeah. I would love to meet your kids. Starts now. Come on. Yes. I want to learn.

their name. I want an invite to the Saturday morning call on over. Come on over. We'll bring our three and one year old. Oh, our girls will be thrilled. Definitely bring the three and one year old. You can bring them. You just won't see them once they get to the house. We'll get scooped up and taken away. Thank you for joining us. Congratulations on the book. For those listening to want to learn more about Katie Davis and Benji, you'll see information in the show notes down below as well as a link to the book she most recently wrote called Safe All Along. Thank you. Thank you.