Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 181 | Together through Addiction, Achievement, and Athletics with power couple Ken and Shelby Rideout

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

Today we sat down with Ken and Shelby Rideout for an awesome conversation that left us feeling really motivated! Ken speaks on his struggle with addiction and athletics. Ken is an incredible athlete who didn’t start taking running seriously until his 40’s but has won countless marathons and recently took first place at the Gobi March- a 155-mile, self-supported, 6-day race across the Gobi Desert in Mongolia. His wife, Shelby, is not only supportive of Ken’s athletic endeavors but she herself is inspiring and is a former ASL interpreter and now runs her own children’s learning program. We hope you feel motivated to go out and do something awesome after listening to this episode because we sure did :) To Learn more about Ken Rideout: https://thekenrideout.com/ To Learn more about Shelby’s company, Bright Signs Learning: https://www.instagram.com/brightsignsabc/ Follow Shawn’s Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Follow Shawn’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@shawnjohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ https://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow Andrew’s Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Andrew’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@andrewdeast?lang=en Like the Facebook page! ▶ https://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Love you guys! Shawn and Andrew Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things. With Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. This is a top five interview for me. What? This was fascinating.

What'd you like so much about it? Just most fascinating couple. And most fascinating. No, say the word fascinating. Fascinating. There it is. There it is. There it is.

They're dynamic. Everything they've gone through. How they support each other. The boundaries and lines, they've kind of figured out in life he's also maybe one of the most fascinating human beings I've ever met but to see their dynamic in person

was so cool I was so inspired so I kind of live dual lives right like all of the content that we post mostly is me and dad mode but there's also this other side of me like the athlete you know competitor side

and that's how oh this interview came to be we're sitting down with Ken and Shelby write out Ken right out dude is a dog dude he's a dog he's over 50 and he runs a two hour and 28 minute marathon yeah he's also done ultramarathons he's he's a world champion he's a guy that like no challenge is too hard so i was super curious you got a guy like that what is his wife like and shelby she's a boss she's a boss she is a boss it is really cool their story there's i don't want to give up too much because it's all within this interview,

but we talk through what has shaped them into the couple that they are. We go through some really, like, heavy traumas, addictions, drugs, just rough upbringings that have brought them closer together and how they've kind of found their outlets in life to make sure that they stay, you know, straight arrows. I think those are going to be a part two to this.

Yeah, there has to be. As soon as we cut the cameras, they were telling their story about adopting their daughter Tinsay. Yep. So they have four kids, three boys, an adopted girl

from Ethiopia who is Tensei. And it's just an amazing story in and of itself. So we're excited to hear what you think. But background, just so you know, Ken,

aside from being this amazing, like, endurance athlete, he grew up in Boston, as you'll probably hear from his accent, took up boxing at an early age.

Then he took a job as a prison guard. Okay, so he's, you know, he looks like he's a rough around the edges kind of guy. which we address on the show. He took up a job as a prison guard

at the prison where his stepfather and brother were incarcerated. So then he goes and works in Wall Street making tons of money. They talk about that and what that's like. And now he's like kind of walking into this limelight of celebrity.

We talk about his major substance abuse, how it was hidden from his wife, pretty much their whole relationship, how that came out, how he went into recovery, what changed his life. How they support each other through that. And what I love about this couple is that they're both amazing.

So Shelby herself is an educator and an ASL interpreter. So she does sign language. She also has her own app that you all need to check out called Bright Signs Learning for teaching your children how to learn sign language. That's right. And it's only $4.99. So I feel like it's a pretty... Sean, actually, that's one thing that you increased urgency of in our family was like just learning sign language. I just think it's kind of cool to learn any new language.

Absolutely. And we'll link information on that. down below but here's what i love about this couple that was really refreshing for me is a lot of people we interview do a lot of interviews and they write a lot of books and they have their stick and it's like they're this is kind of what they do it's like um they are YouTubers or they are authors but ken and Shelby have lived this whole life of things and like they've just got engaged and immersed themselves in life and now at like a later phase in life they are sharing their story publicly which is kind of it just makes a different dynamic it's like

more you'll hear the tone and the whole i think conversation is authentic not to be cliche but just really unique and i'm a big fan of kin and shelby so thank you too for joining us and giving us a time uh glad to call you friends and again if you want to learn more about kin and shelby and what they're up to Shelby's tick doc is hilarious so you should check that out she does these story times with like frogs getting stuck in the wall anyway check it out uh we'll link information down below without further ado we bring you can and shelby right out how many shoes do you think you have hundreds what see i'm like i want three pairs of shoes one for running one for working out one for that i have four pairs of shoes at in constant

rotation just for running but i run like 70 to 100 miles a week but why do you need more than just one pair of shoes burn them out and then rotate no no no no no no you need to they need to be wearing equally at all times because when you're running that many miles, think about how many miles, 100 miles a week is. Yeah. That's an average of almost 15 miles a day. Okay. So if they start to wear slightly, it alters your gate,

and that kind of distance with a slight gate alter will F up like a hip Achilles. So if they're all wearing around equal amounts all the time, I just rotate them to rule. And then I have like shoes for running fast, shoes for like recovery did you have multiple gymnastic stuff like I this is a this is a job yeah it's like a profession yeah we like the only kind of similar situation gymnastics is like grips yeah oh yeah they wear in the bars and I would have three yeah but it's it's painful because like you basically have to start over so you have you have one

that's like completely worn in one that's like 75% worn in one that's like 75% worn in one that's like 50 and then you have your new ones which you're a nightmare. But that's why I've been that's why I have been able to win the races like this Gobi Desert race that I just did. Congrats. Thank you.

Because I treat this like deadly serious. Like the same way you trained when you're in the NFL, that's how I treat running. There's no compromise. There's no, it doesn't take a backseat to anything. It's like my priority. Because it's not just somewhat of a career. It's also like my mental and physical health

which is the most employing thing in the world to me. Without it, I'm no useless to anyone else. I'll be disappointed. My very first half marathon, I was, like, so excited, barely trained at all. Went and bought a brand new outfit, brand new shoes. I was like, I need the whole, I need the whole new get-up. Put them on the start line. It was one of the worst days of my life.

It was horrible. Why? Well, because I didn't train, the lack of training part of it. I had blisters everywhere. If my feet were hurting so bad, it was just miserable. But that's what you would expect of me if I tried to go do gymnastics. You're like, come on, we'll do back handspring. And I'm like, I'm pretty athletic.

Look, that looks very doable. And then you break your neck and you're like, well, what were you thinking? Wait, we were down on the beach recently at my parents' house. Oh, my God, I almost killed my son. And he went for a walk with our youngest, two seven. And it comes back. Hold on. While we were walking, he did about 20 back handsprings with me spotting him.

He's super. Hold on. He's eight. Ken's background in gymnastics, you may be asking. Do you have experience spotting back handsprings? No, he does not. We did about 20 back handsprings in the sand with me spot number two hands. And he goes, hey, Cameron, come on.

Show over in your back handspring. He's soaking wet. I have, I did gymnastics back in the younger years. No, like wrong entirely. Cameron goes back and literally just lands like scorpion on his neck. Oh. I was mortified. Yeah.

So he was super embarrassed. But at the same time, I'm like, what were you? Where's your gymnastic background? What are you talking about? We're on the sand and everything. Like, he's never done anything. When he landed, he just turned 80. He might have been seven of the time when he landed.

He goes, you sucked out. He was right in that moment. Do you laugh like that in the moment or is this like a... No, on that one, I didn't laugh because I thought I broke his neck. I mean, it was terrible. I was mortified. And it was in front of everybody. Because him and I were doing them by ourselves.

I'm like, damn, dude, that's really good. But he went to wrestle. for the first time he takes jiu-jitsu like four or five days a week like he trains like a maniac and he's good like i have four kids i know when someone is good and not good he's good he went to wrestling he was doing pretty good they were warming up they were like all right guys running around cartwheels uh forward rolls this like you know 30 40 kids all right guys back hand springs i'm like back handsprings like all these kids are going to do back handsprings and they just start flinging themselves over and sure enough he's out there trying he couldn't really do it but he's like kind of like

flipping himself around. But if someone said to me, all right, do cartwheels, back hands, because I'd be like, yeah, back hands, pass. Yeah. And as a gymnast, that makes me cringe. I'm like, oh, okay. I would not want to just yell at 40 kids. You're like, throw back hands, right?

Well, these kids, half the kids were doing it. I mean, they weren't very good. It's impressive. And speaking of why that wouldn't be a bad idea, there was a kid named Jamie Nieto. You ever heard of him? He was an Olympic high jumper doing back flips and like back handsprings back flips

did one landed on his neck broke his neck paralyzed like after he was doing the high jump he was just being funny on the track and kind of like to celebrate or to be silly did it and paraplegic so what's the moral story don't do back handspings if you don't know what you're doing unless you're doing your seven year old son

on the beach yeah all right how'd you guys meet I'm curious are we recording yeah we're live oh cool I was going to say this is good material let me tell the story well I'll just say from my end I would was 30 living in New York and it was one of those where you're like really got to meet more people into spread I got this is before hinge yeah yeah yeah and mash and I can be I'm very

outgoing but I'm but I'm an introvert so it's very easy for me to like just hang in and so I'm like no I'm going to make an effort and so this guy went to high school with who's a year above called me and was like he would call like every six months you know when he was in town hey I'm going on with a bunch of people you should come out I was like you know what I'm going to do it I'm going out with a bunch of new people show it up ready to go left a message like just tell me where you guys are and if I don't hear back by like eight I was like okay I'm shut it down I'm watching seventh heaven and I'm going to bed you know end of the road and he calls and he's like where are you we're still whatever I'm like are you still out he's like yeah I'm like okay well I mean is there a bunch of people still out or because I thought was going to be dinner and stuff and he's like yeah I'm here with my friend Ken I go there's one dude yeah I thought it was like a bunch of people like a thing and he's like no come on and it was way downtown it was so like inconvenient it's not my I normally I would have tucked it in and I was like nope I'm putting out like good vibes to you know spice things up and I go down and it was Ken dang that was like your first yeah foyer out yeah like hit it out

of the park on the first one I had mentored this young kid who was a sophomore in high school when I was running a trading desk in London and this group call in long story but this kid did an internship with me like between his sophomore junior year in high school obviously like a real overachiever He went to Cornell, super nice kid. And he, basically, they had this program where you could pay someone to get you an internship in, like, finance, fashion, whatever. So he went through this program. So when he was telling me this, we were sitting on the trading desk, and I was like, we should start our own business like this. You just find people intern.

I'll find all the jobs. You handle the logistics. Long story short, he did it. While he was a senior in high school, he ran this program and had kids staying at the Juilliard School and music in New York in the dorms during the summer. and one of the activities was like weekly or nightly speakers so he asked me to come and speak which at the time i was like oh i would have rather like been thrown off a bridge than speak publicly especially to a bunch of high school kids but anyway i went there and one of the other guys who was my age went to the high school where this young kid went where Shelby also went so the guy who was on

the panel with me was Shelby's year and age and he was like a talent age and like any booked models and stuff so he's like oh i i have a bunch of models that i represent we're having a part we're going to a party downtown let's go i was like hell yeah like shelby i was single i was like i have got to like get out i've got to go out and uh we went down there and we get to the bar and he was like oh this is my friend shelby i'm like when are all the people coming and he's like oh no it's i think it's just shelby and i'm like cool do you mind if i ask her out and he's like well i kind of invited her for myself and literally he went at one point so we're talking i tell her what he goes to the bathroom i tell her what happens in a long story show we ditched them while he's in the bathroom we just left

so the guy must have been like well he was that was after a while we went to a couple places and then he was like kenned already asked me out regardless of how long it was in the same evening he went to the bathroom and we left wow he was he was doing his own thing at this kind of like club where you can't hear anything yeah he's fine did you go to new york for modeling so i actually went to vanderbilt here go doris this freaking go yeah um and um got my degree in education. So, but I always wanted to be an actress. So the deal with my parents was like, we totally support you once. Like when I was little, I like wrote a note like, can you get me an agent? And they don't talk to me, just write me back. They never done like, did you get my note? And

they were like, we want you to be a regular kid when you're, they sort of like, when you're 18, you know, that's great. They really met us like post college. That's really great. So I went to Vanderbilt and I was born. Like my passion is really kids and being with kids. And that's very natural. So I was not born Audrey Hepburn. Didn't prevent me from being like, Dude, I want to do that. Like, so I was a decent actress, went to Vanderbilt, got my degree in education, special education, and I focused on the deaf, and then I moved to New York to wait tables. I actually worked with kids to support myself at the time.

And then I was doing acting, but that led to a lot of, like, print modeling and regular modeling, but I took me years to be like, oh, my dog. Why specialize in deaf? So, well, I think it's very, sign language is very theatrical, and there's a lot of performance in your face and stuff like that. So I think that probably, I always loved special ed. I always liked working with special needs kids since I was little. And so senior in high school, I was working at this oral.

You could do an internship, your senior of high school. And I worked at this school that was an oral school. So it was deaf kids, but they were not, you weren't allowed to sign. You had to work on your voice. And there was this little Japanese kid whose parents were Japanese. He was deaf. His parents spoke Japanese. He was living in America and he was deaf.

And he went to a sign language class in the morning or school. and then he came to this oral class so I was handing out snacks and he started to sign more and I was like okay and started to give him snack like no he has to say it and he was seeing there doing the sign going more more and I was like oh but I understood like I don't care how you communicate whether it's through

words or sign and so I just then got into sign language and stuff but I moved to New York and was like I'm going to do this and did print modeling and commercials and kind of went as far as I guess and I went to L.A. with it and stuff but then there was a strike and I went back to school and then became fluent in sign language

and then did all of that. So I have a brother that's a missionary. And I feel like mission-oriented work is really hard because it's like there's more passion and purpose behind it than like, hey, let me, no offense, but like the more material, like let me go make a lot of money work in a desk wherever, right? Oh, we can come back to that.

I have a whole. I know. Y'all got stories. I get caught up in that life, but we'll come back to that. Go ahead. But it's hard because that's the beautiful aspect of mission-oriented work, but they're also, I feel like so often comes with it like this disappointment or like you talk to like a social worker a lot of times. It's like, oh, it's this dread because they can't make the leap from their goal of helping people and like whatever red tape or societal infrastructure, like whatever. Has that been hard for you as you've navigated this world?

A little bit. Yes. Because it's actually just, I wanted to increase my skills again. And so I just starting last week, I contacted a company here and was like, hey, do you need interpreters? And so they sent me to a school with a little guy who's really, they're like, when they called me, they say, we don't know how much he can even see you. He's really low vision. He's low cognitive and he's deaf. Or he has cochlear implants. So he can hear. He actually can hear more than you think. And it's so difficult because they pay a certain amount. So they, they may. mainstream him into some classes for like social studies and science and it's like he's not getting any of it it's even signing was I was like oh this is a little challenge they're like reading and highlighting fifth grade stuff and his it's just low and so I'm like but he could do so much like when he had one-on-one he did a one-on-one last week I was like that was so great it was like but the government will only pay for so much so they mainstream so then they can pay for other things and it's sort of so you just sort of look for those moments in those pockets where you do see a difference you know are fulfilling? It's very fulfilling. Yeah, I love it. I love it. And just kids in general. And we have an adoptive daughter and we tried to adopt again for many years and it didn't, we moved to Nashville two years ago. And I said, listen, I'm not ready to shut that down, even though like we're old bags. I was like, I'm still, I said, so we literally traveled with all the cribs, all the strollers and everything. I'm like, I just need to wait. And I feel like I'll just know, like God's going to leave me. I just need him that door to close. But it's not closed.

yet. So he came and I was like, maybe we're supposed to foster. And that, I find that world is really difficult. Like that one, and I don't know it well enough. So I looked and I was like, you know, I still have four little ones. And the need, the biggest need is for teenagers. And that's a tough one because there's a lot, even in adoption we saw it where you adopt a three or four year old, people are thinking, oh, this, like some people have this savior mentality like, I'm the savior, I'm saving you, which is not really the right outlook, right? I mean, Ken and I will both say, we feel like we got the bigger gift from our daughter, you know. But with foster care, people go in it very naively and they think, oh, great, they're going to come here.

I'll just, you know, flood them with love and everything will be great. You're like, no, there's a lot of trauma even at two or three or four. So then you get a teenager and you know their life has not been what you hoped for them. And so they come and I'm like, I just don't. And so that part's really disheartening to see. So the door is still not closed for you guys? No, we're old farts now. No, I think if, I think if we could adopt newborns that they would keep them in our natural birth order of our own children, I would probably take one or two more.

I would take, I would take, oh, are you opening up? Once you have, once you have two or three kids, I feel like two, three or six, it's like you're in it. Like, it's not like the oldest is now old enough to like help out with stuff. Like we're there at the age now where we can leave them alone for an hour or two if we want to go eat. So now I feel like we're like through the woods. Except the issue now is then you have basketball and you're in all these different directions The schedule tonight is insane.

It's like we had to have someone else do one of the pickups. Well, we have a carpool with somebody. Yes, there's practice all over the place. Every night, all four kids. I will say that's been a conversation we've had recently. This will be our third. And I know I'm done with pregnancy. I'm done with like our personal, like, biological children.

I was like, but if you want to talk adoption, like let's start opening up a new door. It's the greatest. Oh, it's the best. If you're willing to take on children and be a parent, there's so many people who need it. But I'm curious when you adopted your daughter, did you struggle at all, like, within your marriage of trying to figure out, I feel like a lot of people are afraid to say it, but having the ownership over a child of feeling like they're yours. No, I never. That part of it, that part of it was never.

We were on the same page with everything. The minute they handed it to us, it was the same. And we've had three biological kids. it's the same as if they pulled her out of Shelby it was like as soon as they handed it it was like oh yes yes our daughter and that's even when I look at her now like yeah she's different obviously but I don't see the differences when I look at her feet

like when you look at your kid's feet like those are kind of my feet and Shelbyville those are our feet I do the same thing with her I'm like they're kind of like my feet like it's literally like there's no honestly there's no difference to me and the difference of our kids they all get yelled at the same amount they all get treated the same love and anger equally across the board i mean sometimes too much

anger for me yeah do you think that's a choice though really like relational you have to make as a couple going into adoption yes and i have heard through many people i feel like in general and this is a generalization but it's easier for women to be like yeah of course that's my that's my baby that's my baby even if it didn't come from me men i know it was a biological thing but they're more with their seat dropping their seat around that many men have a harder time and so when we had a home study where they come into your home and see that you're okay and they the woman was telling me that she's been in ones where it's very obvious that someone's on board only because the other person kind of dragged them there and she's like that's really difficult I said how do you do that

because that's not a and she's like well you just sort of write it in the report of saying this seems to be the sense you know but you have to you have to it's anything same thing people getting pregnant or not like you both have to kind of be on board and talk about what your roles are going to be and i always think about how difficult it is having children as you know you're like i'm done with having kids right imagine people who have unplanned pregnancies at a young age like we had our kids at i was 40 and i still was like i mean even now i'm 50 too i feel like i'm really not qualified for this job but when i see people who are like in their teens or early 20s and they have unplanned pregnancy, I'm like, I couldn't imagine.

Like, we have, it was like, who's getting up with the baby tonight? And thank God, that was Shelby's calling. What do you mean? Who? Like, little things like that, it's like, people just, when I see people having unplanned pregnancy, I'm like, they have no idea what's about to hit them, the tsunami of responsibilities, right? It's like the kids can't do anything.

They can't eat, poop, nothing without you for 24-7 for like five years. Dude, that first baby, you can't. even go to the bathroom yourself like it is and then you think about a single mom yeah yeah it's got like that gets crazy real quick and it's like humbling to think hell yeah I think I have I'm winding right now because of my situation with my freaking mother-in-law who's helping at how it's like I got no room to complain I will say we there's no question in this just a side story we were so inspired we had a young couple here who are in their teens when they accidentally got pregnant

like never intended to get married they were just kids and 18 I think they're 18 and they were the most inspiring mature probably 20 year olds at the time they're still young they're still 20 and they've gotten married and they've made it work and they go to counseling and they have this beautiful baby they're trying to get pregnant again

and I was like the world could learn a lot yeah well there's two ways you could you know approach that situation either hey realize that you're about to walk into a tsunami of responsibilities and say I got a lot to learn let's start right now or run away from it and honestly I think about adoption and fostering and it's a bit of like I don't know if I have the courage to like it's like it's complicated and feels really difficult nah you could do that you could do that it's like anything you're just like I'm doing this yeah and I think when you work with a lot of kids too I think that you just you would you know sometimes like oh did they get from there was that biological

or is this it doesn't matter this is it those answers don't matter whether this is given to them like it's the nature versus nurture thing and I think both exist I think nurture is bigger than nature and I think being oh just being an open person and almost in a way because you don't necessarily have a background as well as your own backgrounds for your kid you're more open like I don't know maybe she's going to be a great singer where if it's me I'm like no probably don't have any talent where you sort of cut off things using or oh they're not going to be very tall or they're not going to you because you know the history when you have a child that you don't have as much history in a way you're more like the world is your oyster because i'm not putting subconsciously like

limits on what i think you can you hope not to do that anyway but it is you're a little bit more up and like oh let's see let's see how you flower about and what comes out because it's kind of like a surprise i love that mentality you're a treasure hunt yeah yeah yeah talking about nature versus nurture i hope you don't mind me asking we've you've talked about how you had a rough upbringing and the nurture side of it how do you still process that as a grown adult of working against your upbringing and making sure it doesn't go on to another generation that's a good question and i'm glad you asked it so don't feel uncomfortable asking because that's a part of like my story and who I am and I hope other people can learn from this but um even as a child

part of the reason and I've shared this in other interviews about my upbringing is from the from my earliest memory I recognized that the way that the people I was living with were doing things wasn't right and that was my motivation and inspiration to get the hell out of there so I look back at that and be like yeah I know exactly what not to do and that comes with a lot of uh emotional baggage and that's part of the reason why I don't know if this was on the camera when we were talking about on site why I went to on site and

what's on site trauma healing center which at the time going there I was like I don't have trauma I just know that I could be happier I could be have more peace in my life not necessarily happy because I'm happy but I could do without some of the periods of turmoil internal turmoil

anyway so I went there and I was like I don't really have trauma we started doing the work and after like two or three intense full time days I was like the woman was like you know we're going through all the stuff and she's putting little signs up on the wall as we're going through there's a lot of like you know we're using a lot of tools and stuff and um she's like if I told you your children had to deal with this would you think that they had trauma and I just like melted down I was like I would never tolerate this shit happening to my kids but to your point um that stuff motivated me of how I didn't want to

raise my own children and kind of formed the motivation or the impetus for me to want to build my own family with Shelby that was more about what I wanted, what was missing in my life, like a family of like a family built on love and respect and trust and I'm far from great at being a parent but I try to create, you know, the house that I wanted. when I was a child and tried, you know, I'm always trying to do the best, but we're like quite the dichotomy. Like Shelby's very soft and loving and nurturing

and almost like at times like, I think too gentle and coddling with the kids where I come in at times. And I come in like a bull in a China shop, but way too far to the extreme where I'm like cursing. Yeah, because they'll say like a seven years like, oh come on, cut the bullshit.

I'm like 10, he's seven. I mean, yeah, so, but I don't know. And then they're like, you know, we don't tolerate them using bad words. And they'll be like, Dad, but you use bad words. And I go, yes, that just shows that you have a complete lack of command of the English language and you have no other words to fill in. So you're using curse words, it shows complete lack of intelligence.

And they're like, you curse all the time. I'm like, yes, don't be like me. You have no excuse. I'm raising you the right way. So, yeah, it's been my upbringing has been a big motivation. for me wanting to create the life that the childhood that I missed out on for my own children. And for the most part, we've done it. Like I said, I'm not, I'm far from perfect.

And there's a lot of things I can improve on. But doing things like going to on-site, hopefully I just continue to try to work towards being the person that I want to be. And I'm far from that. But I'm closer than I was yesterday. So I'm really excited about this conversation and have been because you can, I think are like that David Goggins type you know jaco like you're a hard man you know like you're freaking I don't see myself like that but I get the comparison really quickly he came home the other day from lunch and he goes I got to tell you what happened at lunch I go what happened

and he goes I was walking to the table and there was two girls having like a girl's lunch and the one woman turned to the other one and goes that's a man and I go oh and he goes he goes so he goes I heard her and Ken's the type not to just pretend, like, oh, I didn't hear it and kind of smile. He turns, he goes, what? Oh, thanks. I just got to clarify, she goes, there were women sitting in South Hall at the restaurant, and she was like, that's a man. And I turned and I was like, you just made my day. And she goes, and she said to a friend, that's what a man should look like,

polished, cleaned up, like, just together, just in shape, just like, good job. And she was not being inappropriate. She was just like, good work. And I was like, I feel like, if I see someone walking by who's dressed nicely, I will always say like I love your own fit that's awesome so to me I was like thank you you have no idea how much that meant to me but yeah it's so interesting like we're still getting to know each other very much so but like I do group you in that in that realm and it's like to hear you talk about love and trust you know here's this east coast guy who's in the boxing was a prison guard you're talking about love and trust like it those things

things don't always go hand in hand naturally in my mind of like hey i'm gonna go freaking dominate this race and love and trust you know what i'm saying like how do you mesh those two things and it's like what what i'm curious about and i hope we could dial in throughout this conversation is just like you had you said we can do this when it comes to the parenting yeah and and adoption it's like you have the mentality with everything i'm like how do you there's an element of marriage that i think taps into that mentality of like we can do this better than you can as an individual which is why I think this aspect of a team is so powerful you have this person who knows all your weaknesses who still says you're capable and like you can do this um but it's like in what areas of your

life are you applying that to and in what priorities right like wait because you can't you can do this for sure you can do a thing but you can't do everything no and so like how what does that balance when you're talking ultra-marathons, four kids, you know what I'm saying? You have a freaking high-performing job, too? It's like, how? Well, I would say that a lot of the persona and the hard guy stuff might be a bit of a defense mechanism for how genuinely sensitive and emotional I am. Like, I've cried on multiple interviews, not uncontrollably, but I wasn't able to even, like, tamp down the fact that I was getting emotional. And I don't, I mean, I like Jocko and David Guggins, but I don't have that, I, I'm not, I, I feel like I'm not as like, maybe to others I am.

I don't feel like I'm that aggressive, like, with let's go, let's kill, kill, kill, kill, in my mind I am when it comes to my own stuff. But I just feel like, like, with this Gobi Desert race is an example of, like, how my mindset goes. saw this race. Someone said I'm doing this race in Mongolia. Six days 155 miles self-supported. I'm like, I've never run with a backpack. I've never slept in a sleeping bag. I have no outdoor skills. I have no man skills

at all. Like I couldn't change the door hinge. Like I, and it's not my thing. I don't like it. So when I saw it, I was like, oh my God, that makes me so uncomfortable. And at one point my Shelby even said like, yeah, you always talk about doing things outside of your comfort zone. So, you know, this could be a good thing.

And I was like, F it, I'm doing this. And literally, we were like, I don't even have a backpack. I got to start trying out backpacks. I just got backpacks, loaded them up with water and bottled water and towels to like, I didn't know anything. So I just put 20 pounds in a backpack. I started running with it. And immediately I was like, oh my God, what have I got myself into?

This is like next to impossible. I'm running 10 miles a day with a backpack. I've got to do 25 a day in four weeks because I signed up four weeks before. but at some point I was overwhelmed with nerves and anxiety but then I was like you know what I'm doing this I'm here and I was telling Todd Anderson and Katie Hoff the other day our mutual friends that as I was getting on the plane I was like again like going to like going to onside I was like going to the electric chair I was like I can't believe I'm doing this like I there wasn't a moment of like yes I'm going to Mongolia this is going to be awesome I was like what the hell have I got myself

I'm going to do. Everyone is watching. Why did I do this? I'm going to be so embarrassed. The minute I was literally, as I was walking on to the jetway of the airplane, I could feel this, my mentality shifting of like, let's go. We're going to kill everyone. We're killing them. We're winning. Because I had friends, Rich Roll said to me, and I told Rich this, and I know he didn't mean it, but he was like, dude, be careful.

That's a hard race. It's claimed a lot of ultra runner. Someone died there once. And I told him on a show, I was like, as soon as you said that to me, I was like, how dare you think that this is too dangerous for me? And another friend said, it would be great if you could get talk. top five there and I was, and I said to him, top five, I'm winning.

I'm winning that race. He goes, come on, dude. There's people there that this is all they do, and there were, but I killed them. That comes off hard just so you know, I mean, that's pretty aggressive. I just told you I was scared to death inside. I was practically laying in my tent crying

the night before I was like, I didn't sleep. I was like, what have I done? Oh my God, it's pouring rain. I'm in the desert, I hate sleeping in a tent. I'm a baby, I have to stay at the four seasons. Like, I can't stay even at a crap hotel. It's very bougie. I love have a joeyer.

I'm curious that, like you said, the dichotomy of your guys' relationship. We're really different. Well, our values and all of that is the same. Yes. But our upbringing. I always joke around. So when I was 16, 17, 18, I worked at an ice cream store. Yeah.

Scoopin' out ice cream with 50s music on. And Ken was working in a prison as a guard. So in that regard, our, in that regard, our, outlook is a little bit. So I'm like, everyone is good unless you prove to me you're bad. And I have a pretty good judge of character. He thinks everyone's bad until they prove to me that I can like then they have to prove or earn that they're good for me. So it's a little bit different

that way and I can't really change that because that's his experience with how he grew and what he's seen. And my experience was and it has suited me well. I mean I do have a good good judge of character that you can kind of you know but so it's like at the same time he's deep down like more positive like I'm the type where I want to if I'm going to do a race in my mind I'm like I want to win I'm not going

to tell anyone yeah until it's over and then I've won yes and then if I don't no one has to know anything happen here he's like I'm gonna tell everybody I'm gonna kick ass I'm gonna win I'm like oh good you're setting yourself up for like this major embarrassed well I think about people like you and Katie they go on these national stages and people I'm like they're supposed to do this they're going to be great and you're like and your baby your little little kids and that's so much pressure that is it you're someone who can perform under pressure or you don't or how do you rectify that in your mind you know what I mean you or closing things off and just being able to to zero in more compartmentalizing but the the what I'm curious about like the dichotomy of you guys because

for me it was definitely compartmentalizing I'd be I would shut the world out yeah I could turn it off in a switch yeah I'd walk into arena the only thing that existed was like the equipment in myself amazing I couldn't hear people nothing She's a stunk old killer, brother. Back in the day. Back in the day. Not anymore. It's crazy.

Not anymore. Not anymore. Not since babies. But again, even reflecting back on my life, I had a wonderful upbringing, everything. But within gymnastics, there's so many, like, traumas and things that you go through. I'm curious of, like, that mindset, that switch that you're able to turn on. Like you said, you're walking onto a plane, and you're like, I'm about to put my pants.

I cross the threshold. I'm going to go kill him. That's a mindset that. is very hard to learn unless one it's a coping mechanism of this is how I learn like this is my life do you think that's something that you learned as a kid that just became your way of coping with life or do you think that's just like an innate thing that people are born with and do you see it in your children or is it different because their upbringing is different than yours where it's in a loving households and it's more safe.

I think that I learned this late in life going through addiction and just being so disgusted with myself and at some point I was just like I am not accepting mediocrity in my life. I will not be a loser. And I was because I had been in my mind a winner through high school and college, I played hockey and football in high school and college and had, you know, not at a high level, but high enough relative to my peers that I felt successful. Like I played two sports in college. I'm doing this, no one in my family had gone to college.

My peers and friends went to college. But so then to go through addiction and just become so like full of self-loathing and disgust and being everything bad that I would project onto others that were going through their own struggles, that at some point I was just like, F this, man, I am not going to live like this. I'm taking control of this. And even when you were describing just the mindset, flipping the switch, walking into the arena, I could feel my body like having a visceral reaction of like, yeah,

it's time to go. And my partner on the podcast, Teddy Atlas, he would always say, like, fear is like your friend. You think it's there to threaten you, but it's actually there to tell you that it's just time to perform. It's time to get ready. Fear is like normal and healthy. If you walk across the street and there's a car coming down, you should feel fear, right? And it's just telling you that's time to react.

And how you react, it's like the saying, you know, the coward and the hero, the only thing different is how they react. They both feel and experience the same things. So everything that I would feel all the same normal feelings that everyone feels it, but at some point I was like, nope, I refuse to yield to that. I'm in control of how I react, and I'm telling you, I'm going to empty the tank, and I will die to win. And I don't want to die, but when I'm running and racing, I've left races in an ambulance

more than once. And I just feel like when I'm there, again, I don't want to get hurt. I don't want to kill myself. but when I'm there I'm like no it's all or nothing I'm empty in the tank they're getting everything you cannot beat me without killing me

does that come from a place of of like inspiration or like love of like I love running I love competing or is it like a darker place I think it's a darker place I think it's for me it's a darker place for sure but it's definitely like a coping mechanism to cope with what's

the things that we're missing in my life like no one does drugs initially you do drugs drugs and you like the way they make you feel. But eventually you do drugs to escape the way you feel. Because I could tell you, like right now, if someone was like, hey, we're going to, let's go get high, I'd be like, it's going to be awesome for like two hours. And then I'm going to want to kill myself. And I don't want to die today. So the running for me becomes, it doesn't get me high, but it occupies my mind and it gives me some purpose and it gives me something to

channel my energy and outside of work like work is called work for a reason it's not called fun it's work but i was going to say when he's talking about all these things and he made a decision that would be the nature part the nurture no the nurture part the nature part is he has two brothers and since he was little one of my favorite stories is he had a brothers like 10 months apart oh wow oh wow went to was in the prison that ken served as a garden not at the same time and they went to go their mom signed him up for like welfare camp they go to get on the bus his brother runs away we're like seven years old yeah in downtown boston he runs away from the bus i'm on school bus with all these inner city kids i had like a soda wrapped up in tinfoil i just

i don't know why i remember that but i was like that what is this insulation and uh he runs away and i was like and he did ken didn't want to go to the camp either like with no urge to go here so they finally capture the brother whatever they bring the 70s by the way i'm like one of like two or three white kids at this camp and it is not like inclusivity, equity, and diversion here. This is like give me your sneakers. And I was like

you ain't getting in my sneakers. Wait, so the mom comes and they're like, okay, his brother ran away so the mom comes, they're like, okay, you can take him home and like Ken, you can go too. And Ken's like, I didn't want to be this. Hold on, I've been there for two days. And they drive him up there and they call me into the camp counselor's office and my mother's there and my brother's there

and I'm like disgusted with the whole situation because it's like a sports camp. So I'm excelling there. I'm like, you know what? I love it. As a little kid, I was really good at sports, and in high school, like, the kids who went to the pros, they just pulled away. But as a little kid, I was, like, on par with guys that were, like, NHL superstars.

Like, all my peers were, like, huge NHL players in time. So when I was there, I was like, I'm just making the best of two weeks, though, but two weeks when they were like... They said, your brother's going, you can go too. Ken's like, I didn't want to say, but I was like, screw it. I'm not quitting.

Yep. And he stayed at the camp. I believe you got Camper of camper of the week No camper of the year Camper of the year Stayed in my whole two week sentence That's a mindset at seven And he is just really different

Than family So to me there's something that And I have another friend And me being interested in children You see kids you're like There's just something with this kid That they have a drive That I can't explain.

Is pushing yourself To this point of discomfort Like is that just Feeding into this like selfish Like desire to compete or do you do it to learn lessons that you carry over into other areas of life, like marriage parenting and career? Or like, why continue to teach yourself?

I have an answer that may be separate from us as the wife. I could make an argument for any of the scenarios you would just suggesting I could make the argument, certainly, that I'm incredibly selfish with some things in my life. No question about it. I can also make an argument that it's like from a place of love and, like, really, respecting myself and given my body what it needs to like stay the sober and um continuing to you know live i think when people talk about aging it's like once you hit it people make this assumption that at a certain age you're just like yeah i'm done with this i'm like why should i

feel like that i don't feel i don't feel any older now than i did it like 30 i just feel like you know a couple i'm maybe i'm a little more sore occasionally but so I don't know. I think that there is certainly a lot that needs to be examined with my therapist, which I do every week, but Well, what I was going to say is that I think it's changed over time. So when we got married

I was 33, he was 36, we actually when we first, our first night meeting I said, or he said, do you want to have kids? I was like, I want to have five. I want to adopt. I want to give birth. And so when we got, he was like me too. And so when we got married, we started

both right away to try, adoption process and having we were having trouble having kids long story unexplained we did seven in vitro's three miscarriages be in vitro yeah yeah totally thrown in anyway went to Ethiopia got my got our daughter this I stayed in Ethiopia for two months and he had to come back to the US to work and I was just taking care of our daughter and I he was coming to visit for Thanksgiving and I was like I know this sounds crazy will you just bring a test I'd never been pregnant on my own so I said we just bring a test over I'm like that on that story and so he brought he brought a test and I was pregnant. And so all three of our boys are, I had my tubes tied the last time.

I was like, no, I only want another baby through adoption. And so all three boys were natural, but I had seven in vitroes and three miscarriages. But when we, when he, when we got married, he started doing these triathlons and that was kind of, he always kind of ran and worked out, but he started to do triathlons and all this stuff. And it was a very selfish pursuit at that time. And he also was someone, you talk about like the tough guy and the man. man he is but what I love about him is some of the tough he's like that typical like very hard on the outside but a really soft center and so he was always willing always wants to he's open you know wanted to adopt he's always been open to therapy and all that kind of stuff but each person

has their own journey and so he'd be open to it but he just was never really getting there so he kind of hid behind running and he had a therapist once that said he's like you are literally running from your problems and he was like but it was still years later like it just you know you go through then he would drop that therapist or whatever so he was kind of very selfish

and I for me being with kids is easy so I could have four kids and he'd go out biking for six hours and I was like oh this is no that's huge but it almost enabled the behavior because I made it so easy and then I would say like okay well when you come home at least then beyond but then he was tired he just biked six hours or then he would want to

talk about bikes and go on the computer and look bikes and I was like no no like I'm being so awesome right now you can go do that for six hours and it's fun for me to be with the kids but when you come home you have to be present yeah and he really wasn't he was still deep into just hiding behind and getting all this adulation for how he was doing I would say now it's very different now he is much more present and he's had a lot of therapy and gone to on site and so when he actually when he was going to go to the goby desert a friend of mine was like how are you always cool with him doing all these fun cool stuff and I'm like because when he's away from it, he literally got on the way to airport, be like, what am I doing? I miss you guys so much. And then I'm like, he's going to go across the desert, be suffering. I'm going to look amazing. Because it's his own form of therapy. It was almost like he did on-site. You have little slides back, then you come back up, you know what I mean? And then it was almost like a check-in. And so he went to Gobi Desert, and you have nothing to do but think. And so he comes back and he's like his best self after, which is different than how it was before. Before it was just more selfish. And I would say,

now his runs and goals that he has for himself in these athletic pursuits it's much more of a full and and it's more about wellness and that kind of thing than it was originally there's like a layer of intentionality of like hey I realize I can't go to the goby desert every month right but like I'm going and here's why yeah here's why yeah that's interesting um I have a thought this is more of a thought and than a question but I'm curious what you think of this I feel like we talk to a of like athletes even like Eric Decker was on the show and we talked about this of how there's an obsessiveness needed to do what you're doing to do what professional athletes do to what parents are doing and a lot of athletes really struggle with it when they leave their career because they don't

know how to rechannel obsession it can turn into addiction it can turn into unhealthy habits but there's this really interesting process that I feel like few go through where they re-learn how to use their obsession in ways that they know stays within their boundaries but usually they only learn that because they go outside of it and they fall victim to

using the obsession in the wrong ways so whether it is addiction or whatever I know with me now as a parent I have to work really hard not to tap into obsession anymore because as soon as I tap into it I take it too far

and so I always have like these little triggers of like, oh, that's going a little too far. I have to rein it back. That's great that you recognize it. It's taken a while. Yeah. But I'm curious as a spouse and as like yourself can, how do you encourage someone else listening who has this ability to obsess,

which I think we all do, how do you encourage them to find their limits of not taking running too far to where you're running past, like running from your problems? Mm-hmm. And as a spouse, how do you help support them and be like, I actually think you're going to the desert for the wrong reason and not for the right one. Not enabling them. Right, because I did. I did.

I did enable in that sense. So what changed with you? Well, you get to a point of frustration. Because it was almost like a parent-child role where I'm like, you're an adult and I don't want to be the, you know, I don't want to be the nag saying, can't go do that. I don't like that kind of a relationship for a husband or wife where I'm saying, you can't go there, you can't do this. But at the same time, I'm like, you're not setting those limits where you're like, no, this is. I have a friend whose husband was out of the house a lot. And so I don't want to say you can't go out.

What I want is for you to say, no, I'm going to be, I've been away a lot. I kind of need to be home. And so he wasn't, I kept thinking any normal person is going to recognize, you're taking this too far. And then we were sort of in it. And the problem became he didn't even realize how good he had it. I think he does now. Like my brother, my younger brother goes, dude. How can get the, how do you know what I said to him?

I chose the right partner. I chose a partner that would support me and that was complimentary to my life and would give me the life that I wanted. But it was too much. It was too much. Right, but we are, we, there is a lot of intentionality around who you marry and why.

And I would say that when I met Shelby, at least from my perspective, I was like, this is the person that I want to have a family with. This is the person I want to raise my children. this is like she was exactly what was missing in my life and it created I think the two of us together while I don't think that we're perfect I think that we've created a great dynamic for our kids in the sense that they get they get like a exposure to a huge spectrum of emotions and personalities between the two of us to say the least but back back to your point or was one of you of

how do you as a spouse support that or not support that? And with your whole podcast of communication and stuff. And there was one time something happened. I can't remember what it was. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, how do I want to approach this so that he doesn't get defensive? Because I really want to have a conversation.

And he sometimes is like, how do I get this conversation to end? And girls just, I just want to talk about. And he just wants to say, and I'm like, don't feed me a line. I want to have some resolution. I'm always like, cut to the chase. What's the answer you're looking for?

So there was one day, wanted to talk about something again I don't remember what it was and I remember I said okay I'm gonna take a pause and I was like how would I approach this if it was my son how how would probably different than I normally approached Ken I'm like dude what are you doing where's the balance and to my son I might say hey you know I was thinking that gosh it just seems like and my tone and everything was different so I spent the morning just thinking about I'm like wow that's funny I would approach differently so I went into an office I said hey I wanted to talk to you about something it's kind of thinking and I just did it in a way of like how would you speak

not a child condescendingly, but how would I do it in a way that's not your spouse? We talk to our spouse is sometimes different. And it was the funniest thing because before he went to say, can I just tell you something? He's like, the way you just approached that? And so the first thing before he answered me was to say, you just came to me. That was the best way you've ever approached me with anything. And I go, that's so funny. I was pretending you were jack.

So I've gotten better sometimes at saying I don't have to say something in the immediate. Like even recently, I was doing a lot of stuff with the kids. And I said, you know what? I've been giving you, I was sort of doing, yeah, don't worry. I'll take them here. Oh, I'm doing this. And so finally I started to get irritated. And so I said to him, I said, listen, it's not your thing because I've said I'm going to take them all these things.

But I do realize over the past couple of days seems like maybe we're a little out of balance. And he just goes, yep, okay, I hear you. And that was it. But I thought about it beforehand versus like just being like, dude, I'm getting irritated. And just said, let me just approach it differently and say, you know, I just kind of thinking the balance seems a little uneven. But to your point where you were saying about what I would tell someone who feels like they might be moving towards an obsession, I always have a practical, like, matter-of-fact approach to things where at some point, like, when I was training a lot for triathlon, I crashed my bike one day and went in an ambulance to UCLA, and I just remember her coming to get me, and my head's busted open, I'm covered in burns all over my body. I crashed going down to Mescal Canyon in Malibu and literally stopped under the bumper of an oncoming car. Oh, I mean, it was a mess.

I was, like, going, like, 35 miles an hour. The guy behind me was having a panic attack on his bike. He was like, oh, my God. When I jumped up, I was bleeding everywhere. I jumped up, I go, how bad is my back? My friend Jack McDowell from the Palisades group. And he goes, oh, my God, it's so bad. And I looked at him and I go, dude, lie to me.

Ride to me. Tell me it's not the bad. Bloods gush. But when you came to get me, I was just like, that was one of the turning points where I was like, this is insane. Like, I have too much to, like, live for it to get hurt on a sad. riding my bike in Malibu but so to your point though I feel like I always take a matter-of-fact approach even with myself where I'm like at some point I'm always like all right we I got to cut the shit this is get a grip on yourself look in the mirror and recognize that this is getting out of alignment

and um but I will say when you went to onsite one of the things he really like the gobi desert he doesn't really know a lot about stuff before he goes in and jumps in so I'm going to Do you think that helps you? Huh? Do you think that helps? Is that like a benefit? Maybe. Maybe it's fear of like learning too much and then and then backing out of something.

It's almost like even even though when I was going to the Gobi Desert, when my tent got delivered that I was going to sleep in, I put it together the day before I was going to the desert and I was like, I think this is right. Meanwhile, I'm going with people there that have climbed Mount Everest. They know everything about equipment. I knew nothing. Yeah. What was everything? something about um not looking into things before i go oh yeah so when he went to on site he was so you know the the phone started to become a thing where he would be on the hit the phone a lot and stuff so

when you go there they take your phone and he exercises every single day and so i was like oh i wonder how that's going to work you know and so he didn't know and we got there they're like there's no gym you can't really go walking outside or anything but go crazy but it was but what's funny is those are as healthy as they can be they are also even still it's an escape oh i'm going to go do this it's relieving or i'm going to go on instagram or i'm going so when they strip all of that and there's the reason they do that in those places because i got to strip everything away that you can't fall back on your comfort addiction of working out because oh i can work out now i my feelings feel better no no you're going to be like almost crawling out of your skin so you're the only thing left now

is to share it with your therapist or cry or do whatever um which i thought was the most effective thing they do there is like stripping all that that's what i find so fascinating that about like even reading through your guys's bios and your relationship and kind of watching your interviews is i feel like we to a certain extent have a similar relationship where just polar opposites we do things differently he's definitely more extreme he'll go he'll sign up for anything without ever preparing to a certain extent but i have friends of mine who are like i would never let my husband or i would never let my wife and i'm like but he's a better husband because he gets to go do these things.

And I think that obsession to a certain extent is a good thing because you learn what keeps you to be a sane human being and a good partner. And having those outlets is really important, but it's the staying within boundaries and lines that gets really hard because obsessions take over. Well, he signed up for the Iron Man.

No, he qualified for Iron Man in Hawaii. So there was a lot of training, a lot of things that was gold to go to Hawaii. Dog. Dog. So he goes to Hawaii. I take our two, at that time we had two babies not realizing, oh, there's a time change. So I was up at like three in the morning every day with these babies.

And he's, you know, trying to do all the fun things and stuff. And he goes on to do the day. And we're there cheering his father and his father's wife. Leslie are there. And he comes on the run. I have a video. And he comes up and he goes like this, like cut the camera. And then it was sort of, I don't know how many miles in you were.

Like three miles into the run. I'm like, are you okay? okay you hurt and he's like no I'm done and I knew he was quit like now granted I'm not the one doing it but you know what you see we're like you're gonna quit her yeah dude we have flown like you've put all this stuff in you felt that yeah I felt it I don't ever told him but I remember you like you quit her and I was like are you sure just start walking just just walk like because I also knew this was a big agreement to do this and I had the babies and he quit and he's never quit anything since because he's like he just sat with it and so there was another time he went he did

great at the Ironman after oh so that was the one it was going to be a one and done so we're supposed to have this great Hawaii trip we go to California we're supposed to then chill out as a family and he's just caught up in the fact that he quit they didn't finish and so I'm trying to enjoy a glass of wine this is I'm over it like hey that was that was it oh well and he's like and he's just being a sour puss I'm like here's the thing it was supposed to be shut down and now this is family time and now you're and he was just obsessed and he's like so finally I said okay troubling to you you can try again but we will have a contract and you know X Y and Z I will say this was at a time he didn't actually follow a lot of the rules

of the contract you had a contract yeah yeah I wrote a contract and he said well why really cutely he was like why are you letting me do it like I that was my choice to quit and I do think I need to do it again but I'm surprised you're letting me do it and I remember saying well because there's going to be a time that I need, it's gonna make me cry, where I wanna do something. There's gonna be a time where I'm gonna wanna pursue something and I'm gonna need you to take a heavier load

of the kids or do it, and that's gonna be your time when I ask you, you're gonna support me. And so this is that important. I will support you and when it's my turn, you'll do it for me, you know. But this was a, that race was a critical turning point in my life. Like when that, immediately after that,

I was like borderline suicide. I was like, what a fuck, What a loser I am. What a loser. I can't believe I showed. But that's also not healthy thinking. You think about that. I'm not done.

I don't disagree. I was like so caught up in this because to me it was like just qualifying was the win. And I had just like discounted like actually performing on the day. It would be like qualifying for the Olympic team at trials. And then you get to the Olympics. You're like, I already won. I'm here. And as soon as that happened, what I realized was in the immediate aftermath is that quitting.

yet anything is so much harder than suffering, and that's to your point about the ambulance and empty in the tank. I know the sting of failure and quitting, and I will never, ever feel that again. I will never, same thing with drugs and addiction. I'm like, I'm done with that. I've done that.

That doesn't work. It doesn't work for me, and it shouldn't work for anyone. Quitting by your own free will shouldn't be acceptable to anyone because it's so much harder than persevering because that sting will live with you forever. You'll never, ever get rid of that feeling.

So now the only way I can cope with that feeling is to know, like, okay, I did that and talk about it and let other people know, hey, look it, learn from my experience. Trust me, you'd rather walk 26 miles than quit. Because I did go there one year and walk. And like I went back the next year. I had a really good race. Did it in like nine hours and 30 minutes, something in that context. And then I did it in 11 hours in 16, but I had pneumonia like three weeks before.

and I was like, if I have to, I'll just walk. But I did. But I was like, I'm not quitting. I'll be dead out here. And the reason he quit the first time, I should make this clear. It wasn't like, oh, I'm really tired. He was quitting, and I knew at the time, because he wasn't doing as well as he had wanted.

At the time wasn't going to be great. Basically, like, I'm out of the money. I'm just going to drop out. Like, I was a professional athlete. And I was like justifying in my head, like, ah, shit day. I'll come back next year and do it better. And then I was like, what am I doing?

I was walking back with, like, crying. Just by myself, like, I couldn't believe I was doing it but it was like I was having like an outer body experience but the point is like you know hopefully if anyone's listen to this they can learn from that experience like never quit never give up on yourself because you'll it's so much harder to live with yourself

if you've given up and you didn't have to it you know it begs the question or the thought of like don't start what you can't finish and like you can't start everything and finish everything right so it's like be really intentional and thoughtful of like I need to do this for whatever your reason is and like if you're going to start it though take it to the end yeah and yeah I think go ahead

well and I just I'm still fascinated you casually just throw out there we have a contract about this and some people I'm sure I'll listen to me like that's a little much but I don't think it is oh no but it was yeah well my sister's done contracts with her kids yeah like here now what I will tell you about it, and this was Ken at the time, I stand by the contract. It was like, to him, it was sort of a joke. Like, yeah. And I do a lot of like, you know, I'm like a teacher at heart, so like, right, we're going to have a contract. And I'll

do it with a sense of fun. And like, but just so we're clear, like, and he really I love it. Didn't, but he didn't really follow the contract. Yes. It took me a little while to get to the point we're at where it's everything is balanced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. We go skiing. I get up at five and run before we go skiing so that my

running doesn't interfere with anyone else's. And sometimes it does but I try not to let it because I like what I do and I don't want it to interfere or cause resentment at our house so I try to work it in around what everyone else is doing when we're going on vacation I get up super early and do it and it's just I was talking to a friend today's like yeah I'm going to try to get up and run

tomorrow I go dude don't try just do it what are you talking about try if your meetings are not until 8 like getting up at 5 isn't that crazy once in a while well and I brought up the contract because if people think it's extreme I think they're failing to recognize that you guys

don't say that you haven't explicitly said like we have this process of how we protect our marriage and stuff but it's just woven in between your relationship of we know we do things extremely which not many people can like do what you do but

you've figured it out in such a beautiful way of the communication and preparation that you guys put into each decision is something that a lot of people fail to do And it's not until they're a year or two years or three years committed into preparing for an Ironman that the balance gets swayed so badly that they can't come back from it.

That's right. Well, it's like you said, well, how as a spouse do you keep someone in line, someone who can be obsessive? He was obsessive the first time around going to Iron Man. I was like, he doesn't know. So it was like, okay. And the contract was like, you know,

after you work, then you come home and you're present with the kids. You know. And it was almost like, that that's your answer but as the spouse i was like okay well i left him to his own and he didn't set up boundaries he didn't recognize this is not so i'm going to kind of say i think i was i don't if i was pregnant but i did have like rub my feet once week that never had you know i put in some fun ones and i thought maybe those didn't happen but it was because he he didn't know the boundaries

so i was like okay well then i guess i'll have to set them you use the term you enabled can or i thought have you ever feel like enabled shelby and anything. I'd love to say I enables her to any bad habits, but she doesn't have any. When I met Shelby, she had never done any drugs, had never seen, had never, had never, I didn't then start once I met. No, no, but had never seen drugs. And coming from, I saw pop. I had worked in a maximum security prison for four years, had struggled with addiction, had gone through like hell and back, like with my own lifestyle of like, I mean, I grew up in an aggressive place with aggressive people. There was a time where for a year or two, like in the senior year of college and next year out of

college, where I don't think that I went out with my friends in Boston and someone didn't get into a fight, which seems so crazy now thinking back, because I'm not looking for fights, but these people were so aggressive that when I met Shelby and saw what our family was like, I was like, oh my God, this is the life that this is what's missing in my life. This is how I envision raising a family. So to say we came from two like, polar extreme backgrounds would be an understatement. It was like worlds colliding, but it worked because I think that we balance each other out a little bit and that she gives me a little bit more squareness and I give her a little bit

more edginess. Were you an addict when you met? Yeah. Unbeknownst to me. Wow. I was a functioning drug addict for like 10 years, 24-7, round the clock on opioids, year-round, round the clock. How did you get out of?

of it at some point i just like was like i can't do this anymore i went to like n a meetings well it wasn't like a switch it was like a process so the first time i got out of it i um i was when i was living in london i went to na narcotics anonymous and went to like a 12 step program and um just got over and then i'd have like you know a month or two of sobriety then i'd be like back to being high and then when i met shelvey i was like kind of in the throes of it again and um at some point I went to an outpatient detox where they give you some drugs to help with the withdrawals because withdrawals from opioids is like man when I when I meet other addicts that have gotten off opioids it's like kind of like meeting someone from the biggest loser where you see

someone and they're just huge they're completely out of shape and then you see them a year later and they've got abs and they're a bodybuilder you're like how did you do that that is incredible good for you that to me is like getting off opioids that's what it represents is like so hard because you don't just get sober in a week later like oh man i'm so glad i'm sober you're talking like months if not a year of like these like lingering this like lingering depression because you've shut down all these like chemical systems in your brain because you know the things that you bring normal people joy like seeing your children uh going to an amusement park whatever i was getting that high three or four different times a day so that those natural highs

didn't exist for me. It was just dull. So for months after, it's dull. And you have to have blind faith in yourself that that little flicker of light at the end of the tunnel is actually daylight. And if you just keep going, it's going to get better. And at times, it just feels like the tunnel's going down and the light is not even visible. But you have to just have blind faith in the process, just like running. It's like if you trust the process, every day isn't going to be good. But if you do the work consistently day in and day out for a year, two years, three years, just like gymnastics or any high performing athlete, you have to trust that that consistency is part of like the 10,000 hours. You're going to get there. And that's how I viewed

my sobriety is like, I will get to the end of this tunnel or I'll die in this hole. And I went to an outpatient detox. It was horrible. It's embarrassing. But I hope in speaking about it, and I've only spoken about this recently in the last couple of years, because it was so embarrassing. like I would rather die than have someone know the truth about me that I was a loser and when I went to that outpatient they gave me a bunch of drugs like blood pressure medication riddling for the day x at night because you're a mess I mean I was like if someone had seen me without those medications they'd be like oh dude I think this guy's dying and um I got up one night to pee and I hear Shelby calling my name and I wake up and I'm like oh my god I just blacked out I mean I don't faint

And those things like that, just those instances keep piling up and contributing, adding to like the ledger of like, you know, the pros and cons. There was nothing in the pro and all the list of cons was like, you know, a mile long. And at some point it just, it stuck. And I, but again, it was like a process and I just kept consistently trying to stay sober, trying to stay sober. And, you know, it hasn't always been the smoothest ride. But at the end of the day, like, sometimes I wake up and I'm like,

I can't believe I'm sober Thank you Jesus And other days I'm like Oh my God I would do anything To get high right now And escape the way I feel But I remember like You know like if I'm trying to lose weight

Or someone's trying to lose weight You just I feel like If I eat this how am I gonna feel in 10 minutes Because when I'm trying to lose weight Or try and eat good I'll eat dessert and look at show me Like why do let me eat that You know sarcastically

And that's how I just treat it It's like what am I going to feel like In an hour from now Because this is only going to this high is only going to last a few minutes. And then it's going to start going downhill in a hurry. And I'm going to be like, oh, my God, I can either get high again in a little while

or just get through this dull phase and get back to baseline. I got chills. I've never heard anyone describe addiction like that. That's wild. Oh, I couldn't imagine a worst fate. You'd rather go to prison. Sorry, you use the term, like you were embarrassed

because you felt like a loser. Oh, man. But, like, is that how you view, addicts? No. Is it like a weakness? No, no, but I only I'm only passing judgment on myself. That's unacceptable for me for my body. Like the way I

take care of myself, it's unacceptable for me to abuse my body. This is like the greatest gift in the world. Look at what it's done. We know each other because I run. Because I've accomplished these things, you know who I am. To disrespect myself and then tear myself down and it is so shameful.

Like, I'm so lucky to have all the things that I have and to be healthy, to make myself purposely unhealthy for a few moments of like euphoria is so selfish. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life

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croissant try it with maple brown butter today at tim's at participating restaurants in canada for limited time but i don't think of other people as a looser as a matter of fact when i see people that addicts i want to help them but i also know from being an addict you can't help people who don't want to be helped someone calls me and says hey i need help i'd do anything for them even a stranger and anyone who's recovered drug addict would that doesn't mean that i drive by addicts and look at these dirt bags I say like oh these poor bastards they're gonna eventually get it though

and they'll get it and if someone needs me I'll help them and there's that aspect of pity because they're they're just like surface level it's like that they're chasing that short high and you've experienced that short high and also this longer term joy or meaning or you know your purpose and running and that high

and you're saying you prefer the latter oh look at me i'm here talking to you guys like two famous podcasters and and for what you know what i mean like so yeah i'm luckiest person in the world look at my wife how i mean how much i've got four beautiful children i'm the luckiest person i know but not everybody who's an addict can be like oh i'm gonna stop being an addict because maybe i'll be like kin right why not i'm saying like yeah no you're right well i could do it i wasn't i wasn't a good athlete i was a division three athlete you played in the NFL. I'd kill someone to play

in the NFL. I would have done anything to have been in that position. And then I've talked to guys who played in the NFL that are like, yeah, but I never made a pro bowl. I want to smash them over ahead with a microphone. No, I don't feel that way. Just don't let them smash me in the head. We have that argument a lot. He's like, oh, but I didn't get

what I'm like, you played in the NFL. Stop. Anyway. I appreciate the way you described that there because we've talked about this a lot. I have been very open. I've struggled severely with eating disorders. I went through a really long phase of where I was severely addicted to Adderall

and it was within the outskirts of my career and I remember so many times when you're not in it and when you haven't experienced that to a certain extent, it's so easy for someone to say, just stop.

Just stop. And it's like, well, I don't even know how. That's right. And the way you like describe the emotion, the depression, the roller coasters of it, that come with it. It's like once you finally get out of it,

if you're lucky enough to get out of it, like I will do anything in my power never to go back there. It sounds great every once in a while, but it's like, no. But to that point, don't you feel tempted some days? If you're tired,

you're like, oh my God, if I just had like five milligrams of adderol, I'd be so productive right now. But what I find is with Adderall in particular is it creates literally a psychosis. And I start to act, if I'm not regularly abusing drugs,

like if I took Adderall tomorrow, I would notice that I'm a crazy person later. And even I can recognize, I'm like, why am I so upset about this? I'm crazy. And that's when I was like, okay, I can't do any drugs. Well, and it's even interesting too because not too long ago, maybe a year ago,

we were getting ready to move houses and stuff and we had found like a prescription. And I was like, you need to get it out of the house right now. I don't want to see it. I don't want to know it exists. It needs to be burned and he's like well I'm so proud like we should like to a certain extent memorialize this and like show it

and I'm like I cannot have that near us we've had we've had opioids in the house where I've said to her I'm dumping these down the toilet because I am going to take these yeah I had C sections and stuff and I would just yeah and they were there and I was like I have to dump these and she's like really I'm like I'm going to take these right now or I'm going to dump these or I'm going to take these or I'm dumping them down the toilet because I can't look at them I can't know

that they're here but like you said it's unless someone wants help there's no there's no hope for that because it's because it's an impossible task yeah without a hundred percent commitment from yourself so to think you're going to bully someone or guilt them into doing it you're being naive they'll put they will put their addiction ahead of their most prized possession their family their loved ones I mean look at people like destroy their whole lives for drugs drugs at that level of those of that kind of addiction that I was dealing with takes priority to everyone and everything and it sounds crazy to someone who hasn't gone through it but please believe go drive through San Francisco or Philadelphia or New York and look at people whacked out on fentanyl do they look like they're happy they've abandoned

all sense of self to chase getting high but you're saying human willpower is stronger than that that's the only thing that might be stronger than that is that right you think if you if you have to have the desire to quit and that desire let's just call it willpower oh yeah if you don't have the willpower no no you have to want to get sober like you want to live like it's like if you don't want to if you don't want to get sober like like imagine if i'm holding you under water in a pool and for a minute or two you think it's funny oh he's clowning and then you realize he's not letting me up how hard are you going to fight to get out from under that water that's the kind of fight you have to have to get off opioids in my opinion it's so interesting because shelby's this you know

seemingly straight-laced, actress, you know, helping special needs. Yeah. Well, I remember, it always makes me cry. When I first met Ken, I remember he would have these erratic behaviors, which I was like, I don't know, like, I just, it was very hard to figure out.

But he was a really good person and blah, blah, blah. And I remember saying to my best friend, who I was living with at the time when we were dating, and I said, I'm like, this is so frustrating. I'm like, he, is this aggressive kind of like, really impatient. I'm like, but he's, I said, I just see him as like a kindergartner,

and he's the kid that's getting in fights at recess, and then he comes in and he's picked me, and he's like, hey, Mrs. Rideout, I have dandelions for you, you don't know what I? It's like this really, he was always this, like, really opposite thing. And so I just always, I couldn't let go of, like, no, he's a really good person.

There's just something going on, and it took me a long time to realize, like, is it mental health? Is it, like, there was a point at which then I understood. I was like, there's drugs but even still it was like it's a long process it's not just stopping the drugs there's behaviors and everything else and it takes a while i think for your mind to kind of resettle itself or find itself for the first time of of different things so it it was rocky for me to try and figure out

but at the same time i did have a nice upbringing and so i don't pass judgment on people other than i i remember saying to him like when we first met he was like really into money and it was like embarrassing to me. So he bought me Manolo Bolognax. Is that what they're, I would say it wrong. Whatever, those fancy shoes. It was like, $800 for shoes. And I was like, so I just returned them.

Because they were just regular black pumps. And so I returned him. He's like, why'd you return him? I'm like, because you don't have to buy me shoes. And we would go out to dinner and people didn't even do like the fake reach for the pocket. Like we went out with another couple. They just assumed Ken was paying.

And I was like, these people aren't your friends. They're not. So he was really into all that stuff. And all the stuff, I remember saying to my go, I feel like you're supposed to live in the middle but like you grew up really poor and kind of with some bad things then he went to London and was

going on yachts and going on a car then he started to earn a ton of money this before he met me and I was like I think you're supposed to live in the middle it's really a fun place to live where everything's just moderate it took a while to get to that point though when you are poor and you have nothing

and then you have money like buying a Rolex watch and having a fancy car is how I tell the world like look how successful I am but it didn't take long for me to figure out, like, what the hell am I doing? I went for a job interview once at Credit Agricola, the French bank, and I had on a Rolex watch and Shamrock Cufflings, and the guy said to me, it was the best question. He said, what says more about you, that watch or those cufflings?

And I said, oh, that's a good question. I said, I'm going to say the cufflings because the watch just says I'm an insecure buzzard who want you to know how successful I am, and the cufflings kind of like Irish represent where I'm from in Boston, their antiques. I actually got them in this cool, there's a cool story behind them. And I'm really proud of them. So I'd say the covelings say more about who I am, like, as a quality person. And the watch just tells you, like, oh, this is an insecure guy who wants you to know he's successful.

But it took a while to get to that point. Wow. You didn't ditch him when you found out he was on drugs. No. Well, I will say when we dated, there was a number of makeups and breakups because I couldn't figure out. He's still not a great traveler. He's kind of impatient. and I'm like a special ed teacher

so I'm like well hey we're fine we'll get there you know and so I remember driving one time we were going somewhere on a vacation we were dating and I was like this is not going to work like he was just like a maniac just like real and there were drugs involved at that time so. I get very anxious about traveling

not nervous I'm just like got to get there they can't take our bags before we get off those bags are staying with me yeah I mean it's so bad that like literally I had four kids and I was like hey why do you take a separate flight I had like four kids under four kids under five I'm like it's not a problem we'll just meet you all the other, and maybe call that enabling.

It was really more for me. I'm like, I'm going to have an awesome trip with four babies. It's easy compared to traveling with Ken. Funny. So there were some makeup breakups. But there was like no choice. It was just like, well, this guy's a maniac. Like what?

But no. And throughout our marriage, so the drugs did continue into the marriage. But, you know, a lot of it's hidden behavior. So while I am, I wouldn't say I'm, he thinks I'm naive. I'm actually not that naive. Like, I was like, oh, like I said, yes, I've never seen cocaine in my life. And I think I saw, like, actually, I was 28 when I first smelled out. I'm like, that's pot.

Okay, just think it's a scut. Like, I just don't even, it took me years to recognize the smell of it and stuff. Because if I saw it, I was like, okay, no problem. You know, I'm going, whatever, it's just not my thing. And I don't judge other people on different stuff. I mean, I don't think you're doing wild drugs, but I'm just, I just do myself, you know. So when in the marriage, it became, because I, I'm also like, you know how women can be like

Dateline, NBC, and be like, I am an awesome sleuther. So with him, like, so I've more than once, I'm like, what's this pill? And I'm on Google, round blue pill, what the hell is that, you know, and even in times of things, really, he'll be acting weird. I'm like, what the hell, let me super, and it's always like

iron or, you know, it's nothing. But there were years where every single time I went to go, look, there was something or, and it would be like, because I wasn't a very good criminal. I think getting off of opioids or any drug, too, it's very, seldom like, oh, I quit and I can. And so for me, I'd say, like, well, when was the last time? So I smoked cigarettes in my 20, which seems so crazy because no one smokes cigarettes anymore.

And so, but I remember the feeling of cigarettes. I was like, I have an addiction to this. And I've always actually been grateful for that because it was a small window into what addiction is, where literally like, no, I'm done. Me and my best friend would like break our cigarettes. And the next morning, you're rifling through the garbage can trying to find, you know, a little butt of a cigarette, like disgusting behavior. and so with him finding things around and then you would and so like an investigator where you lead them down I'm like oh okay um is it this or I go what's going on with you not nothing I'm like did you take anything he's like nope nope and I go did you take a Benadryl he's like yeah I took

a Benadryl now date line will tell you all of a sudden you didn't take anything and now I've given you I've given you an easy one oh well was it that because Benadry you're not going to get trouble was it a bend drill? Yeah, oh yeah, I took a Benadryl and I was like, got him. So I did become more savvy with it. And it certainly was frustrating. And I think if someone is not willing to change, he always wanted to change and always was trying different things. He just wasn't like consistent with therapy, whatever. And so I'm like, I'm in it for the long haul, you know, but there's a point at which if you are going to continue to do things and it disrupts the children and different things and also just as a loving partner I'm like you're not it's very hard to see a partner

who you're like life could be so much better than what you're doing this isn't working it's not working for you so I'm here to help you in any way and that's why it was like okay I think that's probably why I enabled some of the running okay well he's out running he's not and he's really into this is really positive he's really good about this is what I mean though about someone has to be ready to quit because even being browbeat and in and caught lying all the time isn't enough you have to come to the realization yourself there's no like shortcuts and i tried every you know uh shortcut or get rich quick scheme to get sober and there is none there's only one way and that's kind of why my mentality now of like this mindset of like okay it's time to go kill kill

that was the only thing that that's the only approach that's worked for me um in in using the addiction as an example like that's the only way i could do it is to like go into it it super aggressively like I'm taking control of this and that's the way I approach things that are important to me so interesting it makes me think like have we all been addicted or are we all addicted to something right and then this idea of a partner being an enabler like I think probably all partnerships enable something are you enabling are you enabling someone to be lazy and like not hold up there into the bargain or are you enabling them to like figure out what their purpose in life is and get closer to that are you enabling them to

to work hard or enabling him to be addicted to work. It's like this really interesting responsibility that we have, right? But I'm curious how Ken proposed? My sister has a theory. I don't know how you guys proposed. I should ask that before I tell her theory. I did it last minute, did it in the Cubs Stadium, Riggly Field. So my sister has the Siri, and I've seen it over and I'm like, yeah, I kind of agree.

like there's people like we flew to France and I got a hot air balloon she's like those marriages are always doomed like these huge proposals where the whole family was thrown float this is no offense to people if you had that and it's working out hell lovely so um my parents live in shelter island new york and we were Ken wanted to go out there so we were driving out and he was literally going like 100 oh i got a speeding ticket lost my license for 60 days he was going and he was going super super fast in his car i couldn't necessarily tell and we get pulled over and he goes, hey, he turns me and he goes, I go, oh, were you going fast?

Are you going fast? He goes, yeah, listen, if he takes me away, just go to Shelter Island, it's going to be fine. I was going so fast, I was like he might arrest me. Yeah, and I go, what are you talking about? He's just going to give you a ticket. He goes, I was going pretty fast. It was the dead of winter.

We were driving out to the end of Long Island where her parents lived like out in the Hamptons in Shelter Island and her dad was leaving to go, he was writing a book, so he was going to the library. So I was trying to catch him before he left. So I get stopped. get the tick the guy didn't even give me a ticket he's like here's a summon seeing court

he was pissed and rightfully so and so we go on and as Shelter Island's on an island and you have to take a little ferry as we're pulling on the ferry there goes her dad driving away for the day and I was going to ask him as soon as I got there and then proposed in the evening and he drove away and I was like

he goes where's your dad going I go oh I don't know he's like writing a book I think he goes to the library to do some research and stuff and he's like and I kept saying oh no no we're going to your house you're going to your house But he sees my dad go, he's like, let's just stop for lunch. And he was like all dull. Anyway, so I went to go, we went out to my parents' house.

I took a nap, and he went to go ask my dad permission. And so my dad's, oh, okay. And he goes, okay, well, if you guys want to look out the winter, I'm going to go do it right now. And I think it was like 24 hours. Ken had bought the ring, you know. Yeah, so it was very quick in that regard. And so my parents live on the beach, and we went down, and we used to throw rocks and see who could hit the post with it and stuff. There was a piling out in the water, like, you know, maybe like 30 yards.

out and it was a rocky beach and we'd just stand there. I could stand down there and throw rocks at this thing for like three hours. Just throwing rocks. So I was picking up a rock and he goes, Shelby, what do you think of this rock? And I turned around and he was, yeah. It was like, no kidding. It was like 20 below zero. There was ice frozen all over on the water, which is a bay.

So for it to freeze, it's cold. So we were down there and it was, I mean, it was beyond cold. It was Arctic. I was like, come on, let's go walk down. She's like, it's freezing. I said, put on your mom's for a coat. and we walked down there yeah you have any nicknames can no

no nicknames no you don't have any nicknames for myself do people call you anything every all my kids have their own nicknames everyone in my life has a nickname from me but none for me but i don't have any problems if you want to call me a nickname no no i'm just curious like i like i love this bulldog approach like everything it's like like mike tyson style like go get it yeah i don't know if that's the best approach for everyone though because i'd like to have some more like a little more peace in my life and a little more like chill have you found that yet sometimes sometimes i can be

very um zen and i think i'm very like uh sensitive and affectionate and loving if in the right environment but the minute i feel through i'm very insecure so the minute i feel threatened i'm like oh you think i'm a you think i'm a jerk watch this now i'm going to give you a reason not to like me he'll out jerk you any day of the week and that's a huge um that's uh uh something that i've got to work on it's I let other people control how I see myself and how I act towards them versus just being confident and secure in myself when I'm at my best no one can affect me when I'm at my worst everything affects me but that's true of all of us you know self-reflection what were you gonna say something he's he dating wise it was great so you know when people are looking and doing

dating apps and stuff and all these gameplay he doesn't play games which was so like I met him the next day there were like flowers at my house like oh i hope i get to see you again soon like he's which was really nice i mean take away the drugs and all the lie it was great but it was like what's nice about ken is like you get he's not fake at all so like you know where you stand with him and in business he's very upfront with people he's very ethical and in stuff so all of the stuff that matters is great the only the thing that affects his behavior is insecurity really which is again i think is true of everybody that it's to me it's the worst thing that we all have and so even when you were talking about parenting, it's like he didn't come from maybe good examples.

So how do you not pass that on? I think that you have to solve whatever's going on in you and it will be more natural. You know what I mean? But if you're still going into parenthood with the trauma or whatever the experience, then that's going to get passed on even when you don't want it to. It's like alcoholism or abuse rather. You don't want to do it, but you do it until you have just focused within and figure it out what fractures need to be fixed.

And then I think parenting and being in relationships, I think that all becomes more of a natural thing. Like I said that. Yeah. Because sometimes I have the thought of like, you can't always be thinking about you and your issues, but you said figure out what fractures you do. So have the look inside enough to figure out where you're broken.

But then like I think the process of repair is almost like you need to look outside. Like people talk about service or like helping, you know what I'm saying? It's like this interesting balance. That is so, so I was in my 20s, you know, reading self-help books. And then there's a period of you're like, I need a break. It's too much. It's so ego-focused a little bit at one point.

And you go over the top. And the best, to me, I always tell my kids when I was going through miscarriages and my whole life, I always say like, God tests you with what is the test for you. So for me, not working at, you know, Goldman Sachs, that wouldn't be a test for me. Mass not my thing. I'm not into business in that way. but if God was saying hey I don't think I'm gonna you're not gonna be a mom I was like this is impossible this can't be and so it was a huge testing in my faith and everything else and so my father took me

for a walk at my best friend's wedding it was like hey this is and Ken was awesome during all that like he was like and I knew he wanted kids too and he was like it's okay I married you you know like it isn't we can do whatever and but it was it was really an ego thing not ego partly probably but But like I just felt like broken as a woman and I just, I just wanted so many babies. And my dad was like, you have to, this isn't fair. None of us know why this is happening to you, but it is what it is. And you just have to, you can't, you have a husband who loves you and you have to keep living. You have to keep living. You have to.

So my dad was saying, like, move your body. You have to move your body every day, which, you know, depression wise and all that. I lost my train of thought. That's what happened to me about. Oh, yeah. And so I went back to, I did a half marathon once because I went and started running. And Ken's like, you've got to sign up a race. Otherwise, you'll stop running.

And I was like, no, I don't need to, but he's right. You almost have to have a goal because otherwise you'll run three days on the treadmill and be done. And I was like, no, no, I have this race. I have to keep, which I did. But the other thing, I signed up for like Meals on Wheels and I would go visit these old ladies. And it was, the gift really is to yourself. It is absolutely taking just all the focus off yourself and just saying, okay, I'm going to go paint these old ladies' nails and just talk to them, get them grossies, do whatever. And it completely switched everything for me.

tell us about your app oh so um i was an actress and um an interpreter and i was a private tutor for like 20 years in new york to subsidize the acting and the stuff and so then i got my babies and i was like i don't really they called me for auditions i'm like yeah great and then i had my daughter tensing i was like oh i've done audition on thursday i just didn't want to do it anymore so i had my daughter and my son almost immediately we came up from ethiopia in december and my son was born in june so i started out with two babies which by the way one of my favorite things which by the way one of my favorite things they would be in they were in a stroller she's Ethiopian and my son is blonde and pale more than once I'd be double strolling it through New York and someone's like are they twins and I was like

close you know 11 months apart um but anyway so with them in order to like take a shower or have a moment I started making home videos of myself just doing sign and and I wanted to teach them baby signs so I was doing sign language and just kind of interesting things that kids would like and and so they would put that on knowing, oh, this is kind of language-based, and I'll go take a shower, and they can watch this on the screen. Well, they started to read and do sign language at like a really young age, and so people would be like, oh, my God, how did they learn that? And I was like, oh, I just have these videos. So people started asking me how they could buy them. I'm like, well, they're not for sale. So I end up turning into a whole thing. I had like a sign language

puppet, and it's just sort of this learning program that starts out with communication so you can communicate and cut down on frustration and all that. But then it does introduce phonics and all this stuff. And so it's like a very, the idea is to just, you're learning while having fun. It's not like, you know, you got to learn and go to Harvard. It's just a very fun educational thing to put on that I've had hearing kids and autism kids and kids that just like, it's a nice calming thing that actually I have people, a lot of people like, dude, it's like a baby whisperer that like just the sounds and everything would be like screaming. I have videos and the kids are like, oh. But it's a really great program. And so now it's been made into an app. So it's

called Bright Signs Learning and it's an app on Google Play and on Apple and you can just download it for and I don't even do a subscription thing it may not be a great business plan but I'm like I just want people to be able to have it and explore videos and then it has games some games at the end as well that's awesome we'll link it down below too yeah this was this felt like the most important conversation we've had I had goosebumps multiple times you guys are very wise I don't I don't always feel very wise And we bring our kids It'll be the best reflection

See how I That's how you can always tell How someone's doing Bring their kids over here And let's see how they behave At least when we're in public I know my kids are like Very well behaved

And I'm like It's always like such a source of pride I'm like yeah they behave They know I just remember my mom telling me as a kid And it gets more and more true Every year It's like the best lessons in life

You'll unfortunately learn the hard way And I I just think it's refreshing Honestly I hate that you guys have gone through so much but it's refreshing to hear it and to see people come through it because it just makes us

reminds that we're human and well and that is where you come out of it the faith too like my for me was having babies for Ken probably the addictions and stuff like that but they always say it's like well I wouldn't trade it I would never trade it. That's what I was going to say is that although you say like I'm sorry

you went through that like I'm not sorry like I wish that I could have done thing. I wish I could have, like, gone to Harvard, played in the NFL, been a professional fighter, been the, like, that would have been great, but it wasn't. So I've taken what was given to me or what I deserve, I got what I deserved, and I've turned it into a positive. And the same thing, like, unfortunately, it took me 52 years to be recognized as an athlete, but to be recognized as an athlete and use the addiction as, like, a cautionary tale to help others, I can either like let it be a source of embarrassment and shame or I can just use it as a teaching tool and show others like, hey, I know that some people are going to see this and be like, ah, his addiction couldn't have been that bad.

He's, look at it. He seems to be okay now. But trust me, it was, I was just an addict with means, so I didn't have to steal. I was like working in finance and making money so I could buy an entire bottle of prescription pills at a time for $3,000 and not. about it but other people are out you know robbing and stealing but the addiction is the same the end result is the same i was in the same hole with the people whether regardless of how everyone got their drugs we were all in the same ditch together and i just at some point was like yeah see you guys i've had enough take care comb your hair wow i'm just curious about you guys have been in national for two years and we just freaking connected like two weeks ago so i don't know what's up with that but glad to know you guys now likewise hopefully there's a lot lot more that we could glean from you in the future. But also, Ken mentioned that he has a

podcast with Teddy Atlas. We'll link that and his social handle. Anything else that you want to talk about? No. As far as promoting anything? No, no, no. I never have anything to promote. But I do have a podcast with Teddy Atlas called The Fight with Teddy Atlas. King's a freak. So follow whatever he does. It's great. Glad to know you guys. Thank you so much for the time. Thank you for having us. Extremely honored to be here.