Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 212 | how our marriage is doing with three kids

Episode Date: May 1, 2024

This show is sponsored by No Story Lost ▶ Use Code EAST at checkout and you’ll receive 2 free extra copies of your book and a free upgrade from phone interviews to video interviews (this totals a $350 value) That’s Nostorylost.com, and code EAST at checkout. Today we had an open conversation about how our marriage has been doing with three kids. From conflict and identity shifts to intimacy and our journey through marriage counseling, we touched on a lot of topics today we hope you can relate to. It can be difficult to prioritize your marriage and make time for each other when you have little kids but it’s something we’re really passionate about. We hope this episode encourages you to keep choosing each other, no matter how hard the season!  We love you guys,  Shawn and Andrew Follow the Couple Things Instagram  ▶ https://www.instagram.com/couplethingspod/?hl=en Follow My Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@shawnjohnson Shop My LTK Page ▶ https://www.shopltk.com/explore/shawnjohnson  Like the Facebook page! ▶ https://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow Andrew’s Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Andrew’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@andrewdeast?lang=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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see the Tim's app for details at participating in restaurants in Canada for a limited time. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things. With Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. Today it's just us, guys. Just you and me and Sean.

Just us. Hanging out. You mean Sean? You mean Sean. Am I saying that right? You know what's weird. Them, us, and Sean. Huh?

Us and you all. There you go. You know what I just realized now that we're 215 episodes in? What? I've started every single podcast episode with a wave. Really? And, yeah, podcast is just an audio format, honestly. So is in my goofball?

Yes. Yeah. How was this week? Let's start with a little debrief since it's just us. This week was wild. It was busy. We had a bunch of work. We took a day trip to Des Moines, Iowa for the Character Counts event.

Something we've been trying to go to for nine years. Yep. Ever since we got married. Yeah. It's an organization that you actually passed a bill with them or something. Didn't you go to Washington, D.C.? Is this right? Not with them.

Whoops. But it's okay. I did do that, which is really cool. What'd you do? Tell us more. It was called the Fitness for Life Act. My bad. And it was this program that was developed in Iowa at the time that I helped pass.

And it was this concept of like, you know when you go and, to PE class and you start getting grades and a lot of it is based off of standardized testing that's universal and it can very quickly or easily discourage less fit individuals from wanting to partake it's intimidating yeah so there's this program that was started in iowa where in physical education class, you would put on a heart rate monitor. And you, each person based off of, I think, like a testing was given their own heart rate to reach each day. And if you reached that, you got your A. Yeah, we're doing Orange 30 before Orange Three was around. Yeah, it was cool. But it was like really cool because they didn't have to do standardized tests anymore.

They didn't have to do like, you have to do five pull-ups. It was like whoever was able to reach their target heart rate for the 15 minutes or whatever was given their completion or A for their class. That's great. Which I really liked. You've been doing a lot of good stuff for a long time. Anyways, we went to character accounts.

That was a quick there and back. We love Des Moines. Yeah. Then Sean has a fun new weekend routine. Go to the farmer's market every Saturday. Yeah. I load up on some sourdough, some pasta, some meatballs. It's delicious.

Eggs, produce. It's the best. We do pasta Saturdays. Yep. Do that. We went to a birthday party for four hours. Kids' birthday party, which was wild. It was a good weekend.

Sunday went to a lakehouse. Went fishing with the kids for like the first time. It was a blast. I also tried to clean my first fish. Yes. And it might have scarred Drew because she kind of saw a part of it. It didn't.

She didn't? I told you not. No. What? What happened? Did I tell everybody else about this? except for you? Yeah, probably,

because you were in the middle of butchering the thing. So you were starting to, like, fillet the fish and it wasn't the smoothest operation. We didn't have sharp knives. It was a little bloody.

And I was like, okay, Drew and Jett were both standing over there, and I was like, this is fine. They can be a part of this. And within, like, five minutes, I see our other friend out there, Walker, bringing Drew over to me

and Drew looks sad. And in my head, I'm like, okay, here we go. let's buckle up as a mom right now and she comes over and she's like mommy that makes me sad and I she like couldn't put words as to why and they she ended up asking like why are they killing the fish and I was like removed emotion and I was like baby God made fish for us to eat and we kind of had this conversation for five or ten minutes and at the end of it she had started like going on to different topics so I didn't want to like harp on it. And it's like, okay, do you want to go inside with mommy or do you want to go back out with daddy? And she looks me and she goes, I want to go back out with daddy. I was like, great. Great, baby. Just for a little background, I did not grow up hunting or fishing. But now that I have kids, I'm like, you know, I want to make sure that I know how to teach them to

be self-sufficient to a certain degree. We've got to learn all these different things. And I've never cleaned a fish. So on Sunday, we did that. You did have someone. with you who knew how to clean a fish. So, like, you were being directed. Yeah, it was a tutorial. And so it was good. I don't know if I really have an itching to do it again anytime soon, but now I know how. I was impressed.

Jet was all into it. It was a catfish. We caught the catfish, brought it in, and we ate it. We ate it. It's great. Anyway, where were we? Today's episode, it's all about how our marriage is doing with three kids. Last week, we talked about Warren Counseling.

Yes. A lot of interest and questions around that. So we thought we'd just kind of unpack everything that's been affected with the third kid. So you want to start with the studies? Yeah. So we pulled some stats for you guys. And it says that there are studies done by divorce lawyers that say the years five to eight in a marriage are like on average the hardest. We made it.

It's smooth sailing. man cruise control um the reasons why the five to eight year phase represent some of the hardest years of marriage are because small children need a lot of care and attention and usually it's within the five to eight year mark that you have small children it can be hard to juggle between housework and a job yeah you can grow well i was just going to say i definitely feel like there's you know you got bottles and then even doing the dishes you have to deconstruct all the bottles with the straw and the caps and the lids and the things while you have kids screaming you.

Small things become more complex or more voluptuous. It also says you can grow in your differences in resentment. I definitely think kids are one of the most polarizingly, like. It brings out people's styles. We talked about this with friends, with our friend group. But even within a marriage, it's like, oh, I thought we were going to do it this way. Oh, no. We're going to sleep train them?

No, let's just do it more casually. Oh, you're going to put them in close. Cloth diapers? No, let's use no, whatever. It's a million different things. When you're dating, you don't think to talk through how you're going to raise children and the small nuances of things, and that comes out. I mean, it's really hard to.

It's really hard to. But the important thing in dating is just making sure that the broad, important things, the values are there. Next, the fourth reason, the five to eight years of marriage is hard, is that the seven-year itch can kick in, which what is that? I actually hate that this is considered, like, that people talk about this so much, because it gives you a complex. Of like what's going to happen in year seven? Or like you're in the seventh year and you're like, am I supposed to not like this?

Seven year itch is a popular belief sometimes quoted as having a psychological backing that happiness in a marriage or long-term romantic relationship declines after around seven years. Declines. It specifically says declines, which I think it could go one of two ways. I think you either choose around that time that it's like, man, we're in this thing. Or you're like, I freaking love this person. Yeah, interesting. All right, you read the last and fifth. Many couples, despite getting fully accustomed to each other,

start feeling as though they don't know each other anymore around this time. Also probably because of kids. Yeah. It does consume a lot of time. It says... No, go ahead. I'm so sorry. No, go.

Statistics suggest that the average national length of an American marriage is 8.2 years. Really? What do we have? Two more months? To hit average? Why am I talking word today?

You're not. To hit average? That's from the CDC. Okay, but the good news is that marriage raised. are going up and divorce rates are going down. In 2022, the divorce rate was 2.4 divorces per 1,000 people and it continues on a downward trend. The rate of divorces in 2000 was 4 per 1,000, which means that the current rate is a big decline from two decades earlier. But I'm curious,

are more people getting married? Is the divorce rate declining because less people are getting married um you want to talk while i look this up i thought we could just add it out no the u.s marriage rate increased 12% in 2022 so that's great uh to 16.7 women per thousand up from 14.9 per thousand in 2021. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. I think marriage is amazing. I do too. I do too. And I think more people should do it. I feel like those statistics do surprise me because our social like media platforms like to paint it as such a big pick, like not good picture. Marriage? Yeah. They're always, the only stories like so, uh, media outlets want to cover about relationships are divorce and drama and controversy and you're saying

that's just a strategy on their part yeah it's just clickbait that they want yeah people do love negative news okay now that we have an idea of this phase of life broadly speaking let's reflect on our own marriage so question for you is how would you sum up the last few months since our third child was born. Like a really crazy roller coaster. Okay. Say more.

Big highs, big loves. Bear has been interesting because if you were to meet our little bear right now, he is the sweetest, easiest, most amazing little guy. That boy smiles when he sees you, makes eye contact like you wouldn't believe.

I feel like he's excited to see me. It's so fun. He locks into your soul. It's amazing. But the first solid two months, solid eight to ten weeks, he was not like that. He was our first, like, colicky baby. And because of that, we had some stressors that we had never dealt with before, and we didn't know how to like work through we both had a really hard time bonding with him we both had a hard time

trying to figure out the frustrations and how to help him um and we both didn't know where to start because i feel like after two kids after going through so many things you feel like you kind of have it figured out and then all of a sudden it's like you don't have anything figured out and I can honestly say selfishly from the mother's perspective I cared about nothing else for the first eight to ten weeks except for figuring him out

because it was so hard I was so consumed that I could not see I couldn't put any attention on my husband my family my well-being anything I just needed to figure him out

and I felt very hopeless and it was really hard on us. You thought so? I'm curious which transition from zero to one kids, one to two kids, two to three kids, did you feel like was the hardest on the marriage? It was the hardest for you personally

and any other hard that you want to apply on there. after this I want you to answer the first question I think the hardest on our marriage so far has been two to three I don't think it would have been the hardest transition had he been like the other babies

like there was a glimpse there at the beginning that we could like handle three pretty easily it's just it wasn't the number it was the circumstance yeah yeah and I think it was the hardest because one we were so tired just like any extra time or effort we had went to the other kids and so we would get to the end of the day and we'd have some disgruntledness towards each other and instead of trying to figure it out we were both just like I'm too tired to do this and that's honestly we're when we were like, I think we need counseling because one, that's not a good sign

that we don't have enough energy for each other to figure it out. And two, instead of trying to like work through this in a long form way, let's just go get a professional's help so that we can cut through the extra noise of trying to understand what we're saying and really help each other.

Yeah, and we also need to do it just because we needed to break routine. Like you're always going to fill your time or something, at least we definitely are more prone to filling our time with something than not so we need to fill our time with counseling um i would say two to three is hardest on the marriage zero to one was hardest personally because when you have your first kid it is it's like a changing of the guard you know you really really got to die to yourself and you're what you thought uh life look like your priorities look like um But you want me to sum up the last few months since Bear was born from my end?

Yeah. How would you say? Confusing, in a word? Confusing? It's so fascinating. Your perspective is zoomed in and so internally focused on navigating the kids thing. A lot of that goes unspoken, which then leaves me confused. And I naturally probably have more of a, hey, let's go take the kids out.

you know, like outward focus from the house, right? We're still both standing there. I'm trying to paint this picture. We're both standing there in the house with their family. You're focused on the kids. I'm focused on where we're going, kind of, you know? Which is a beautiful teamwork, but I think what we were missing is sharing each other's perspectives and at least trying to get on the same page.

So that was confusing. How did you feel in the first eight weeks when we were going through the colloquy pace? This was the kid that I felt least able to help in the sense that, like, you were breastfeeding him and you wanted to, so I couldn't take him to bottle feed like I did with Drew. You needed help clearly. I wanted to give help. but I don't think you knew exactly like you didn't want to delegate task

because you're already so consumed with this so yeah it made me sad it's like you're sitting there I'm like I want to help but I don't really feel invited into the situation I feel like I'm the backboard for a lot of your emotions

kind of you know and it's like okay I hope you see that I'm just here with you in this and not trying to make it worse even though I probably would sometimes you know

I'm sure I was annoying maybe you felt like I was breathing over your shoulder whatever so I mean it was hard it was like I listened to a song everything's going to be alright on repeat for like eight weeks because I was like you know

I need someone to tell me it's going to be all right it's a grind out here sometimes you know I'm sorry we went through that. We're better for it, though. I'm freaking glad we made it through it. I know.

To explain kind of the situation with Bear, so you guys, so I can paint a picture for you guys. The first eight to ten weeks, Bear had a really, really hard time feeding. So he would scream bloody murder every single time I tried to nurse him, but he also couldn't take a bottle.

So it was really, really difficult to get him fed um and this was every single feeding in between feedings if he was awake he was screaming he we called him like a little red bomb because he was just so uncomfortable and not happy that we just were desperate to like rock him back to sleep always quite frankly Sean does not thrive when the kid's crying. To me, whatever, I guess, I don't know why. My disposition is, it bothers me. I want to

diagnose a problem, but I can be around the crying. You can't. You need to like separate yourself from it. And also, with Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life

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yourself so it's like it's like a prison in some sense you know and i had this immense guilt and shame There's this like feeling when you have an infant of I'm the mom. I should be able to fix this. It's something I'm doing that is not right for him. And I'm either causing it or not fixing it. And like the guilt, the shame, the sad, like the postpartum depression, all of it. It was just so, so hard on us. Fast forward around the 10 week mark, we actually found out he had a,

tongue tie um that it wasn't like super severe but so like it didn't get diagnosed in the hospital or anything but we got that fixed and he became a new kid yeah was able to take a bottle was able to eat better and more efficiently smiled for the first time if you don't have kids this is so hard to understand all a kid's supposed all a baby's supposed to do is like eat and go to the bathroom and sleep and our kid wasn't eating he like couldn't he couldn't open his mouth wide enough to essentially or and he also didn't really understand the the sucking motion yeah so anyway and just for the record too i i didn't don't and never have felt that you should be able to fix something You know what I'm saying?

That guilt, I hope, is not rooted in me at all. Never. It's not. It's my perfectionist mentality. And it's also, I think, just a predisposed thing that maybe women and mothers have. When you have a baby, it's like, I should be able to. To the ends of time, mothers have been taking care of their babies. I should be able to take care of this guy.

And all this to say, within those first eight to ten weeks, it kind of took us to some low places towards each other, which I think originated from me being so self-consumed of like my inabilities, basically, that I just kind of wreaked havoc on all of us. I don't really, you're using pig words that I don't feel. I will say, Sean and I do a pretty good job at regulating our emotions. So, like, even when we get worked up, I think we're able to have awareness around that, usually. But the volatility of our emotions and thus arguments definitely was greater than normal.

Which, you know, then you're already stressed because a kid, and then you're stressed because, the emotions are so big it kind of compounds it's a really fast and it can snowball an interesting an interesting effect um but i'm proud like your idea that you should be able to do it the what you should do is just keep showing up the next day and that's kind of the key to marriage and parenting and the whole thing is like hey this will be figured out you know like we say with the pacifiers with the kids they're not going to go to college they it will be figured out yeah so don't get caught up in the now and lose side of like hey if I just show up the next day this will get figured out show up the next day we'll still be married show up the next day XYZ and it's not

it's not what you're going through it's how you respond how many times did you hear that as an athlete it's like it's not what happens to you it's how you respond And that's kind of the beautiful thing about all these difficulties where it's like you find something out about yourself, dude. People talk about it with working out. It's like, oh, I like to do hard things.

Ice bass. Do hard things. Freaking have a kid. See how you respond. When you haven't gotten a lot of sleep, when your wife's struggling, when you don't know how to help your wife and she's struggling,

when you got kids that you're trying to also be there and present for, see how you respond. That's freaking hard. That's hard. Anyway, that's how I feel. What are you apologizing for? It just, it wasn't easy. Don't be all sad and moping now.

I'm not sad. You're gonna help nothing, girl. You gotta freaking. I will say, I want to add one thing because I feel like I even have friends who are going to this right now. There was a period of time, and this was around the time

that we both had said, like, let's go see a counselor. Let's have someone help us through this. every day I was so absorbed with Bayer trying to help him and fix him I was taking him to

every type of doctor everything I was doing everything lactation consultants chiropractors dentists pediatricians and everything in between

I was trying to find any type of solution and I distinctly remember one day Drew and Jet are like crying and sad because they want mommy we had gotten in an argument and I remember driving

to one of these appointments thinking and this is extreme but it'll paint a picture for you as to where my mind was at the time I was like am I going to lose my husband and my two big kids because of Bear right now

because of my obsession of trying to fix him like am i am i trying to change this baby to become something different than maybe what we've been given it was it was a lot i was in a dark place i am proud and appreciative of all the effort you put in you do have a tendency to catastrophize a little bit and that and then that like that just like you know you being sad now it's like don't don't you have to do that you don't have to think about what if I lose my husband freaking let me speak for myself I can I'm a grown man I'll let you know like yo this needs to be addressed you know what's funny is my counselor said that exactly I am working on it I have this issue of feeling like I need to perform so perfectly

for my family and every misstep I make is so detrimental that I need to work a hundred times harder to like make up for it and I like keep a record of myself of like oh I came up short last week I still need to earn that back and it's wrong and I'm working through it all that to say there's nothing I also don't like that I said fix the baby it was like I was just in a dark spot we'll probably do an episode on postpartum depression I think I probably had that when we're ready um moving on some professionals say when your kids are zero to two years old it can be the hardest on a marriage but when you have kids back to back there's always one in this age range do we feel like we felt the effect of this

yeah yeah this has i mean yeah we've sat down with people who have kids older and that's like you're definitely in the hardest phase which is really kind of nice to hear changing diapers we can make and pot they can't get their own food it's also the most beautiful phase though no i appreciate that because i'm over here griping and grumbling no no no It's the best. It's both. It's hard because you have these little babies who are so dependent on you every second of every day.

And there is no break there. But yet you have these beautiful babies who look at you and smile and you see them grow and evolve and become their own little humans and it's so cool. But yes. I was struck by, I was in church last week and there was a family there that had a one week old

baby one week old and they walked in and everyone around them was like smiling and like wow congratulations and like so eager to be with and see the baby but the parents were like in it you know they were they were in the fog and i was just kind of struck by the contrast of the outside of the insider perspective of this really is the most beautiful phase of life and we feel that I would say the majority of the time but it's also such a challenge it's like beautifully designed the sweetest phase of life

is also the hardest to sit and be present like we freaking distract ourselves in an escapist type of way it's like sometimes you're just tired and you just want to not hold a kid and you just get on your phone and you scroll because like I don't know you just

sometimes want to be a break yeah yeah but it is this magic period anyway it's just i was like challenged by of man i really just need to enjoy where we're at so yes we felt that next do you feel like your identity shifted after having kids did that affect your marriage i always say it's different being married to a mom bro like it is sean is obviously intense as you could see with her background athletics and dancing and all the things her intensity and being a mother and protecting her kids it It's like, I can even get in the way of that, you know? And she, it's just, it's kind of cool to see, but also it deserves respect and reverence of like, all right, I need to be aware of this.

I think I drastically changed after having kids. I think for so long of my career before kids, I lived in this life where I was coached by other people. Everyone made decisions for me. Everything had to go through agents and lawyers and coaches and that I pretty much, for the most part, didn't have to make decisions. And I felt like that was kind of my identity and who I was of just tell me what to do. I'll do it. You'll do it to the best that it's ever been. Seriously.

Yeah, but then you have kids and all of a sudden it's like, no, no, no. You're now making every decision for someone else and it was just like something changed. I was like, it is now my mission in the best possible way to be the best possible parent for our kids. You've done a great job.

Thank you. I did change a lot though. And I can only imagine how hard that was. It's just hilarious. You're married to your girlfriend or your fiancé, your best friend, you're married to him,

then you're married to your wife, and then you're married to a mom. You know, and it's like different. It's a different game. Still best friend? 100%. Yes.

Okay, so although having kids can be hard on the marriage, in what ways do we feel like it's brought us closer? It's like, you just drill down and I think are confronted with this the seriousness and the severity of life in the best way you know it's like it's just like when you lose a parent or a loved one that's not um it's not like what you want to spend your week in doing you know but it's the best it's like it is a necessary humbling you recognize okay well this this is what life is and this is what it's about and it's like there's something

beautiful about doing that together with somebody I also just cannot imagine being in this without a teammate like you I got you that Mother's Day card the teammate and I just love we're good I still haven't seen that I thought you said okay I love how we're a team like we really are You are internally focused. Again, I'm more externally focused. Both are needed. You are detail-oriented when it comes to the kids' lunches. I'm more like, hey, let's make sure we don't lose freaking the fun and things in the midst of this, right?

You're more careful. I'm more, hey, let's push the limits. Both are needed. That's so fun to yin and yang this thing, to shake and bake, as they say. How has it brought us closer? It has been the most special experience in the world. And I don't say this enough. I don't give you enough credit verbally.

I don't tell you enough. I fell head over heels in love with you because of your carefree attitude to life. You just like don't care what other people think. you are so driven but like have so much fun doing things and to see how you have changed and grown and matured into a husband but into a father

is the most special thing in the world. I will never forget sitting down and doing one of our first YouTube videos when we were having Drew and we did them separate and it was what do you hope this kid because we didn't know it was Drew at the time like it gets from Andrew and I just I hope our kids are you you are the greatest leader of our family

the goofiest most amazing dad that's does the work and helps and you teach them and you play with them and you love them and it's so cool so I think how is it brought us closer my appreciation for you has grown exponentially since the day we got married.

Thank you, babe. I appreciate that. I feel fulfilled. Warm and fuzzy on the inside. I is back to... I want to try to verbalize this because this is important and I think this is missing

in the dialogue of marriage parenting. It's not. not what happens to you. It's how I respond to it, right? To be with somebody and to know them and how kind of they respond to situations. And then to go hand in hand and help them respond to things in a different, maybe more gentle, gracious manner to help them in that process and responding the thing better and then to see them respond to really difficult things really well

that's like you're building something that's like not that it's not like progress that's not the right term but it's finesse it's like sanctification it's freaking it's cool it's freaking

it's cool I also think something we've talked about for in what ways do we feel like having three kids or having kids in general has brought us closer we've talked about this with marriage a lot the harder the road the harder the journey the more obstacles you overcome the greater the love the greater the opportunity yeah right if you work for it it's like the more you go through together the deeper your love grows potentially um and it's incredible yeah all right so that was that was marriage reflection Let's talk about intimacy.

Sean, you've been open about how there's a weird shift postpartum where you don't feel like yourself and it's hard to get back in the swing of things. What helps you feel more like yourself? Time. There is this, me and a girlfriend were having this conversation the other day of as a mom going through the phase of life of having kids is a little bit interesting in the sense of you lose yourself. You lose the hobby side of yourself, the fun side of yourself for a while where people are

like, what are your hobbies? And it's like, I don't, there's no chance I can even answer that. I don't have that bandwidth. So with the intimacy side, and specifically, what helps me feel more like myself is like with every day, with every week, with every month. after I have a baby, when I start getting back into working out, when I start being able to leave the house and go grocery shopping, when I start to feel like that routine is coming back,

I start to feel like myself again, which gives me more confidence, which gives me more connection, which makes me feel like I have more room to breathe and all of it. It just takes time. I'm proud of you for how you've navigated that because it's, It's a, there's like a pruning process that happens where you can't do all the things you were doing before. So what you choose to resume and to plug back into routine. One, it takes a little bit of courage because a lot of those things you take a hiatus from, friendships, hiatus from, fitness, hiatus from, like a lot of things.

You step away from and then you have to re-engage and re-enter that. That's not easy. But two, just being diligent and choosing what those things are because you can't have, you. can't have at all so it's it's cool to see like what you've constructed and pieced together back so you've done a good job how do we find other ways to be intimate with each other aside from physical intimacy bev time gratitude journal devotionals coffee in the morning shared friendships i was thinking about this my my what is my definition of friendships and to me it's like friends are people who are in similar phase of life with us have kids and we could we could spend

time together all of the family that to me is like an intimacy where um even if sean and i are having a hard day and we have our friday night hang out with the hopkins or the sunday night grill sash um she'll see me laugh and then we can maybe start to poke fun at each other or start to giggle like that it kind of that makes me feel closer to you when I see you interact with other people and it's like oh yeah it's like a reminder that those sides of me are there those sides of you are there because sometimes I can feel lost you get to like how do you how do I explain that it's like for a split second or for an hour at night I get to watch you from a side like interacting with your friends and it's like a chance to see you again the way that I saw you

dating or yeah where you're not talking to me you're talking to someone else I get to like admire you intimate's a weird word for that but I do feel that I do feel that like close I feel closer to you yeah anyway Andrew as a husband how do you pursue your wife when I'm in the postpartum days. I think this also responds to the last question, which is ways to be intimate. There were

evenings where we would not exchange many words. Because we were going to get in an argument, probably. And we would just sit there, and I would try to give you a back scratch. You would pump.

We would just be together. Again, there were also evenings where we turn on the TV to distract ourselves. But I think where I felt like we were getting closer together was when we would just not be distracted, not try to escape and just sit. And like you know we're both digesting the emotions or the chaos of the day.

And you're just doing it together and the silence, you know? So sometimes that's what it's needed. I think also this is where like routine is important. And it's like, okay, I'm going to get you flowers. You were kind of said some hurtful things this morning. I'm going to get your flowers, you know. I'm sorry. And then also, last thing, my last thought.

I have tried to, and I've hoped you felt this, be wildly supportive of anything that you want to do outside the house. I feel that for sure. Hey, I want to go work out. Of course, absolutely. Take your time. I feel that. so wholeheartedly but pursuit definitely is kind of an accurate word I think it feels like you're running and I'm having to pursue you after and it's like all right people talk about

marriage takes work pursuit is it you know she she's running after the kids I'm running after her is what it feels like go ahead I do think it feels the same for a wife though because I feel the same way. I feel like I'm running after like three different categories at the same time. I'm like running towards myself, trying to like get myself back,

trying to run towards the kids and take care of them and also try to pursue my husband again and find that relationship. So it's juggling. What are some tangible tips couples can do to pursue each other in the craziest seasons of their lives, like having kids? We told the story of when we were going through our goals and our goal setting and how we're really rigid with, hey, we want to hang out with friends four times a month. We want to go on date nights four times a month, church, you know, whatever, 48 weeks out of the year, go back to see my family at least once every other month.

and like had all the we we structure out all these things we could share those that template for goals again if you want but someone came up to us after we were describing this on our tour and they're like don't you feel like you lose the spontaneous and whimsical side of life by being so structured and my thought is like yeah you do but i for one don't thrive when there's not structure my M.O. and my instinct is when there is free time, I'm going to blow it playing video games

or social media. When there is... You're going to play video games? Whatever. I'm just saying I don't use it responsibly. You know? When there is when there's extra money, my tendency is to blow it, you know? It's like, go spend it. So being structured,

being committed is important to make sure that I am tied to my goals long term. I say that because one tip I have is be structured and say every Thursday, date night, every Sunday, church, every night, praying, every morning, breakfast, whatever your routine is together and do that together. Because that way, whether it's a good or bad day, whether you guys are vibing or not viving, you can point to this routine, this third thing, and say, hey, I know it's a bad day. But,

This is what we do. Every morning we get breakfast together. I know it's a bad day, but this is what we do. We get dinner together every week. And it's like it makes it less awkward, less effort on your part on the one hand, in one hand. Because it's, there's less friction. It's like, no, he's right. This is what we do.

And then if, yeah, that's my tip. had you like my tangent there I loved it I think it's interesting you don't play video games or blow money but it's okay

because we've been structured you would play video games otherwise I freaking love PubG I would say a tangible tip and I'm telling you

gambling that would be my vice that would be it of all the seven vices gambling would be it. Let's make sure that doesn't become something. 100%.

Okay. Rain that back. I'm just telling you. I would say, wake up in the morning and each of you, I think it can be the same exact thing every single day, but start the day doing something

for the other person. Like, we make coffee for each other. And it's a really good way to set yourself up for a success that day, whether it goes successfully or not. There's been plenty of times for us that it hasn't. I feel like this might have to be a two-parter. We have like 30 minutes in.

Oh, really? Yeah. Do you want to make it a two-parter? No. Okay. Let's move from intimacy to conflict. To conflict. With three kids or kids in general, do you feel a higher amount of conflict in your marriage?

Do you feel like you've, you ever had conflict before kids? Yes, we definitely had conflict before kids. Yeah. Really? About what, though? I can't even think of dogs, literally. We always used to talk about dogs with our biggest conflict. Tidiness.

I'm not tidy, Sean Tidy. Yeah. What? Family, like, how often we're going to go be with family. It all feels so insignificant. I know. We didn't be easy. There's definitely a higher amount because there's more,

you've now introduced kids, which are something that you both care, about more than anything in the world. So the stakes are very high. Emotions are very high because you care so much. So there's more things to like

butt heads on. More decisions. These kids don't do anything by themselves. So are you going to take them to daycare or not? Okay, that affects the budget. Are you going to take them to gymnastics or not? Okay, do we really want them doing gymnastics? Whatever. There's like so many things. And the duration of time you have to work out that conflict is less.

So I think it like hurts more in some ways because you're like, oh, well, this might not be resolved for a while. We can't just sit here for two hours. Anyway, how do you make sure conflict doesn't turn into resentment? I think it's a choice. Say more. I think you have a choice in your head and your heart. to say something repetitively negative in your heart that turns into resentment or you have the choice to assume the best brush it off work through it and move on yeah I think about

this idea of being charitable or generous in your marriage from like an emotional standpoint and this is it it's like I I'm going to assume the best about Sean. We just had this conflict, but I'm going to assume that she didn't intentionally wrong me. That's like, that is being charitable, mentally. Because otherwise, if you think that that person who you live with, who you spend time with, make all the decisions with,

is actually not your teammate and is a tyrant, that would lead to resentment 100%. So it's a psychological game, literally. have to make the choice and say both of these things can be true which one will I choose to be my reality this is where like faith has really hit me where it's like hey it could go either way you know there is no there is no black or white here so I'm going to play my flag and say you know I believe the best the next question says if you feel resent and start to creep in, how do you come about it?

I actually think this is something we started to do a few weeks ago like before counseling. I was noticing this and we've actually fixed it. But we were having arguments

where we were saying, why did you assume that in me? And it's interesting how if one person assumes something negative it only makes sense for the other person too. And it's just this downward spiral going back and forth and back and forth. And I would say, how do you combat it?

Stop it in its tracks. Immediately assume something good and the other person, and it will now go back and forth good. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's like a... It's hard, but it's a practice. Or at least quite... It's probably hard to assume something good about the other person,

but at least stop the snowball. Yeah. The domino effect. uh yeah how do you combat resentment again i think i think the soul follows where the body goes kind of and it's like you practice love you're going to start to feel it i'm going to wake up i'm going to make shot a coffee i'm going to make her breakfast i'm going to do these things and she'll either start to love me or I'll be so invested in this thing

that I'm going to love her anyway because I'm too deep in it, you know? This is a hypothetical. What hypothetical that you would love me? No, like hypothetical scenario that's not actually happening, right? I don't make you breakfast. That's true. do we have the same conflict resolution styles no no i want to beat a dead horse

all day bro she could revisit that it's great and i honestly i'm working on it i'm working on it i i probably downsize issues because in my mind i'm like oh this will be okay it's no big deal it's going to be fine and that doesn't do the current issue justice so my conflict resolution is like brushed by it yeah because it'll just go away on its own pretty much yeah I it is funny my counselor did say that about me too what he's like why don't you trust it the first time I'm like that's a good question our conversations could be much shorter. I could.

Andrew, I heard my feelings when you did this. Hey, I'm sorry, babe. I didn't mean to. Done. But why did you do it?

No, but you hurt my feeling. Hey, well, if it makes you feel better, I was told to start practicing ending it the first time. Okay? You know what's great about marriage is we got the freaking

timeline to get some reps in. Moving on. Speaking of counseling. What are we currently working on? counseling. It's fascinating. So we're doing

biblical counseling, which I can't imagine doing any other type of counseling. My perspective on other types of counseling is sitting there and talking about how people have wronged you.

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get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. alcohol and select markets product availability may vary by regency app for details and amplifying hurt feelings pretty much biblical counseling is like we pretty much like we'll read the bible with somebody somebody reads the bible to us we'll like do these follow-along prayers which is interesting and they'll be like all right it looks like you need to forgive Sean for this and then they'll like walk you through this prayer like I forgive Sean repeat after me I forgive Sean for for assuming the worst I forgive Sean for assuming the worst it's called Rock House

we could probably link it I think they're nationwide you'll also walk through like why you got defensive or offended or where it originated from and why you feel that way

and you go back into your childhood and like it's been amazing and by the way Sean and I have done kind of a lot of work in this

in this area too we've talked about therapy programs we talked about this three day workshop we did like and we still have so much work to do but what I think is really important that I've grown an appreciation for is like the fact that this is biblical counseling when you think about psychology or emotions it's so ambiguous and intangible right yeah I have justification for

feeling hurt but I also have justification for feeling honored in any given situation you know the fact that it's founded on something much less something that's been you know true for eternity like the bible makes it gives it a strong foundation and gives it scaffolding almost like a structure and it also gives it an endpoint whereas otherwise you're kind of just tread in water, I feel like. So it's been fantastic. I also think in our counseling, what's fascinating about how it works is like we don't meet together.

I'd say we're both working very hard on ourselves in counseling with the sole mission of like honoring each other as best as we possibly can. Yeah. Like the more I can work on myself, the better of a spouse I can be to Andrew. It's pretty good stuff. Which I've loved. We're becoming better teammates for each other. Yeah, so forgiveness is what we're currently working on.

I think identifying kind of our operating system. This does kind of touch on values and what your value system is. I don't value cleanliness, you do, right? I value, I value adventure and learning, which can, like, which can show itself as like, oh, yeah, hey, let's go ride the bike. I know you're two years old, but we're going to crash and we're going to learn. And you're maybe more, you value, I don't know,

what it would be health, right? Oh, I don't want them to get scratched out. Whatever that antithesis of that would be. So you kind of work through all this, and it reveals itself and diagnose it. It reveals itself as you talk about specific situations. Next, has your counselor offered any helpful advice or a new way of thinking of things that you could share.

A million things. I don't know how to share them. One that I was struck, I literally was brought to tears by. He said, you look to Sean for your identity. And I was like, yes, I do. I want to. I literally want, consciously, I desire that. She's my wife.

like that's the one relationship that I do care you say I don't care about what other people think I do care about what you think and I want it to be it you're my freaking wife it's the it's the most intimate and he's like you can't do it it's like you need to be healthily healthily attached but also healthily detached she's gonna she's gonna not always have the most accurate appraisal of your identity and I'm like freak dude that's crazy that's one thing I would say Mine is like, a lot of my issues are like performance based. I do something wrong. Like, how do I say this?

I do Andrew and injustice because each day I feel like I have to re-earn your love. Which is not respectful to Andrew because I'm, Basically, I'm not, like, solid enough foundation in how I see myself and how, like, God sees me to truly not hold that as, like, a toss-up. That's always throwing me for a loop. I'm like, you'll ask, do you still love me? I'm like, we are not operating off the same definition of marriage, of love, of security, of what this means. to further that a little bit though it's been interesting because when you're listening you might not be into biblical counseling but for me it's been really eye-opening because I've gotten to learn so much biblically about this concept of like unshakable love which that's not really your background it's not yeah and being raised in such a cutthroat sport where literally every day I had to re-earn my spot I've also learned that I idolized and put too much of my value in the control of my coaches

and the people who selected teams and judges to where I thought that could always be taken away if I didn't perform well enough. So that's something I'm working at. It's so fascinating. A lot of it is talking about your parents, how they raised you. I talk about my dad and how that dictates my, perception of God and like you really do realize that your past informs your present but it doesn't have to define your future so a lot of it's just like okay how is your present being defined

and then the next question we have on this to talk about is what's your goal in counseling it's like redefining how you're interpreting the past that affects your present in a way that aligns closer to what you want your future to look like did that make sense kind of felt good to say it was incredible it kind of felt good to say I was like did your guy tell you that or did you just come over that on the spot?

No we're winging it some people feel ashamed in going to counseling but are very but we're very open about it why is this important to you because Is that still a thing the people that talk about

the stigma counseling is that still a thing? I think it is okay I would answer it this way nothing is more important to me in my life than my marriage

if counseling helps my marriage heck yeah for sure I will do anything on the face of the earth to preserve this forever

if even trying counseling helps your marriage then you should give it a try right yeah that's why it's important because our marriage is important

it'd be like being ashamed of a Band-Aid. It's like, is that a bad analogy? No, I like it. I was wondering for you. I was trying.

I didn't know where to go about that. All right. Would you recommend that every couple goes to counseling? Why or why not? And my brother, I just got married last year, asked if he should do this.

Yeah. Why not? Yeah. But it definitely comes in phases, right? Or like, so like newlyweds, we did pre-marital counseling. Clutch. It's so important.

as new variables get introduced, I think it's important to revisit those and how that's affected things. So I don't think it necessarily needs to always be ongoing. There should probably be like consistent check-ins, like back to a routine. You should probably have, hey, when life feels steady, I'm going to go to counting twice a year or whatever. Yeah. But in this phase of life, I can't imagine not having started this now. I also think it's a way to learn more about each other and to learn more about yourself. Yeah.

And going back to the ashamed thing, sorry. No, it's good. I don't think people should feel ashamed. But like, I think there's something. not as good about like not going to counseling to save your marriage. I think that's a really great thing that you should be, like, proud of. People should be like applauding you. Be like, that's amazing.

That's really good. I'd whether you not struggle in silence and get yourself to a point that you can't come back from. I was thinking with counseling and then with my men's group, your woman's group like it's so important because you talk about things and then like our counselor will share stories or my men's group will share stories and in some ways you realize how good you have it you thought you had a bad but now you realize how good you have it based off what you're hearing other people and then in other ways you're identified like oh how bad you have it in some senses but like you feel like like you have a forum to talk about it right

I don't feel like I've I love it when you do that thing no you mostly realize how good you have it and it's like oh this other stuff doesn't matter you haven't bad no I don't I know I know okay so listen if you're listening and you have kids I know it can be difficult

having kids can be difficult going to counseling can be difficult can be difficult, just remind yourself and each other that you're in the best part of life. These are the best days of your life. How can you have that perspective day in and day out? Counseling helps. Go check it out. And you can start by Googling biblical marriage counselor and see what pops up around you.

I think that's what we did. But yeah, that's how three kids have affected our marriage. Yeah, just an hour debrief. Venting session. Thank you all for listening, as always. We're going to be posting a video on our main YouTube channel about some changes that are happening around here. It's going to be a fun couple months. There's also a lot changing around here.

So personally, family-wise, video-wise, what to expect. So stay tuned for that. If you listen this far and you haven't yet, Please press the... No, you know, I'm not going to beg. I'm not going to beg. I'll just say it like this. When you subscribe and when you hit the like button, it does help the show.

So whether you're listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, just know that when you do that, it helps. If you like this conversation, if you thought there was something good here, just consider that. So we've been loving doing more solo episodes, just Sean and I. We'd love to hear from you what time. topics we should cover next. And we'll see you next time. That's how we got. Okay.

And I'm Andrew. We're the East fan. Out.