Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 290 | the redemption episode

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

we decided to dedicate this episode of the podcast to a topic that’s both messy and powerful: redemption and second chances. in this episode, we talk through real-life examples, unpack what it actually means to see someone grow and change, and explore how to recognize when a second chance is deserved versus when boundaries need to stay in place. it’s a conversation about the complexity of human relationships, the courage it takes to offer grace, and the unexpected ways redemption can show up when you least expect it. we dive into the messy, emotional, and ultimately hopeful process of giving people the opportunity to do better—and what that can teach all of us about empathy, trust, and forgiveness. Love you guys, Shawn and Andrew Nurture Life ▶ head to https://www.NurtureLife.com/EASTFAM and use code EASTFAM for 55% off your first order PLUS free shipping. Branch Basics ▶ get yourself and your loved ones the gift of clean with Branch Basics. For a limited time only, our listeners get 15% off and free shipping on their premium Starter Pack when you use code EASTFAM at https://www.branchbasics.com/EASTFAM. Follow our podcast Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/shawnandandrewpods/ Follow My Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@shawnjohnson Shop My LTK Page ▶ https://www.shopltk.com/explore/shawnjohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ https://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow Andrew’s Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Andrew’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@andrewdeast?lang=en (00:00) we believe everyone deserves redemption (11:40) tabloids, social media, and headlines don’t tell the full story (17:11) are there asterisks to redemption? (20:46) how do we create a world with less harm? (23:40) the idea of “good” or “bad” being tied to feeling loved (27:20) we are all on the same playing field (31:50) people’s comments on who is “deserving” of redemption (37:40) the foundational lessons we teach kids but forget as adults (40:45) marriage, redemption, and owning our mistakes (47:40) pause, stay curious, and keep standing in “the race” (51:51) practices and reflections for a redemption mindset Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things. With Sean and Andrew. Today is another one of Andrews specialties, which is a philosophical, deep conversation about redemption. I'm having fun putting these together. Yeah. And I have a whole series put together.

We did an episode on why everyone is a bad choice to marry. And some people thought that was the best episode we ever did. Wow. Some thought it made zero sense at all. And you know what? I'm okay sitting in that tension. but today we're going to be talking about redemption and the reason why this is top of mind for me and maybe for you Sean we talked about how we're on this TV show called the special forces

world's toughest test and so this cast had 18 people on it including Sean and I some were our friends here that we already knew from Nashville others were people we had no idea who they were walking into this and we kind of just talked about how it's so interesting to see people's repulsiveness towards certain people on that cast shocking and what we said in that episode was you know what we don't need to like everybody but we we do need to respect everybody and some people again double down yeah some people thought oh that's so nice other people thought zero chance I'm going to be respecting that person or they don't deserve respect which then just sent me For a loop, dude.

I was baffled by it. And it got me, well, it's totally understandable, right? And obviously, I'm not telling people how to relate on the internet or do their internet thing, because the internet's going to internet. But I did want to just maybe do an episode, maybe it turns into a series of episodes, because I think this also relates to marriage in a really important way. But I just wanted to think about the idea. of redemption and man these people who are on this cast have made mistakes we've made mistakes

we're part of that some people's mistakes are more visible than others some feel way more aggressive than other mistakes but we all have mistakes so then what do you do with that do you just say well I'm going to keep making mistakes or I can't deal with that person of mistakes, so I'm going to isolate myself. So anyway, that's the background. And if you want to check out that main channel YouTube video, we can link it down below. But I think, Sean, that everyone deserves a chance at redemption. And that's the measuring stick and judgment stick that I want to be judged by myself. No matter what? Is redemption? I'm asking. Yes. Do you think no matter what they do every single person deserves redemption yes i am trying to think of extreme cases and my

answer is still yes i don't disagree with you but i i think that statement is very hard for some people to digest because there are there are very bad people in the world which is something I think people would say. And I think at the end of the day, you can have people who do very, very, very bad things. But everyone can have a change of heart. You believe that too. I do believe that.

But you would agree with my answer. I would. This is going to be a hot take here. But I sat in counseling for a very long time and had to learn. how important it was for me to not only forgive Larry Nassar

and Steve Penny but like to pray and hope for good for them and I believe that why would you do that because I don't wish for anybody to stay evil

and to live with an evilness inside them haunted by their past. Do I think what they did was detestable? Absolutely. But I still pray at some point in their life. They change and they find goodness and know what it feels like

to understand what it is they've done. And I, like, I am no better than them if I wish ill will upon them. That's freaking deep. which is very hard. Don't get me wrong. Like, very hard.

We are filled with evil in this world. There is a lot of evil. We have been a part of how many tragic headlines recently and in the past. And it would be so easy to be like, ugh. They deserved it. They didn't. They were bad. They were good.

you know, I feel and find this middle ground of like I agree with that one and not this one but at the end of the day you have to look at all of it and say I wish the best for everyone

no matter what they did something you said made me curious. Do you think Do you think there are evil people in the world or just bad decisions? I struggle with this one. Truly.

I don't have an answer for it. I don't know. I have thought to myself I should sit down with our pastor and ask him because I don't know what the right answer to this question is. I believe there is evil in the world.

I do not believe as a Christian believer that God makes evil people. I don't think any baby is born evil. I think good people are created by God, good and perfect, and evil and evil can consume them. And so my prayer for and my hope for all of these people, you know, who have made poor choices and bad decisions and done horrific things. I don't excuse ever their actions, but I pray that that evil gets rid of.

I actually think there's text to support both worldview. I think this is a worldview level topic where my mind, I think that we are all made in God's image, the way I then interpret that is we're all born good and we make bad choices which then leads me to more easily accept the idea of redemption and like

oh we can change or this person can make a change but there is a worldview of the opposite where people cannot change we're born broken which I don't disagree with I think we like sin person thing out for sure but uh but like when you when you think it's more inherently bad that we're born with it's harder to think like oh yeah change is possible anyway i i i do view this as something

i've learned from parenting too is when i get frustrated our kids or they do something that they should not do it doesn't help in my mind to tell them bad boy don't do that in my mind it minimizes the issue it minimizes my emotions my frustration and more easily transitions us into a place of relational harmony when I say hey that was a bad choice buddy let's not do that again as opposed to just projecting that one bad choice and extrapolating that into their entire being and personality, you know? So I think that people are more than just their worst decisions, their worst moments, their worst thoughts.

Thank goodness, right? We have had situations and been a part of groups and friendships before where the world has looked at it from the outside and been like how could you ever stand next to that person knowing what they've done and my rebuttal to that is if someone got consumed by evil for a moment in time

whether that moment is years days seconds minutes whatever does that not allow them to be a human being anymore and like have someone pour into them potentially good I also

I'm trying to like this I feel like I'm talking in circles because like I don't want to like name names but we are recently with someone who has a lot of controversy around themselves

and we were with many people who have a lot of controversy many people and I will stand by this like they potentially made very poor choices in life but they are very nice and there is goodness in them and you can see it by how they interact with you and how they talk to you and how they look you in the eyes and how they how I sit back in a hotel lobby and just like watch to see how they're acting when people aren't looking and like

to just stamp someone as like canceled and bad and not worth our respect or grace or time makes me very sad. Yeah. Because... Are we talking too vague? No. I mean, you're not to me. Actually, it's fascinating because when you say

we're with people with a lot of controversies, it's like, well, which one? I know what I'm saying? Yeah. And also, people could say that about us when they spend time with us. Because also, we've made mistakes, and we're not perfect. And that's what I'm saying, like, man, I am just urgently asking people to not judge us the same way they're judging these people who have made more public mistakes. I have another rant.

Okay, please, go for it. Here's something that I've seen firsthand that social media has done. Tabloids have done, magazines, headlines. So I have walked into a room before and there's been a tabloid headline of like a celebrity cheated on another celebrity. Let's just say that. I feel like that's a very common one that we see. And I'll walk into a room of 12 people and someone will bring it up and be like, how dare they? they are just a horrible person

I can't believe it and what I would like to say in regards to like tabloids and everything I have had a privilege to be around a lot of people who have been in the tabloids for very very bad reasons

cheating, scandal embezzlement whatever like all of it and I can tell you firsthand that the stories social media and the news and tabloids paint is not a full picture I remember

when I went on The Apprentice Kate Gosselin was in the middle of every headline in tabloid and like just hate people hated her and I remember I was a you know 19 year old kid 20 year old kid on that show and I can tell you firsthand she was one of the kindest humans I've met and I saw her day in and day out for a very long time and I got to see her being put in very vulnerable situations

do I think she's a sinner like all of us yeah and she's probably made some mistakes absolutely as have we but it doesn't give a tabloid or a headline or a preconceived judgment of the world does not give me the power as a human being to say, I hate you, and I want nothing to do with you. I never want to stand next to you. I never want to be around you. I never want to have a conversation with you because of what someone said you've done or because of something you have done. That's not fair. All right, parents, you already know the chaos after school of hunger, picky eaters, everyone wanting something different. It's a full-time Olympic sport in this house.

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Share the code and help them out. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from nurture life. This feels like it could come off as us being like real mushy and like, ah, just embrace everything with love. And it's, I don't. don't feel like we're endorsing bad decisions. I just think that it's so important for people who want change in any sense. If you want change with politics or change in your community or change in your school or in your household or in your marriage is the best way to do that to speak to a wall or like to yell at a wall, that is unmovable and unchanging or is the best way to do that to engage in a conversation to seek understanding and then to work towards some other outcome together i don't know i mean

maybe it's the team sports in me but like i just feel like hey let's all come together and your perspective is really valuable and your background and and and is really valuable, and so is mine. So let's, like, freaking do this together. I don't know. It's a worldview thing. I feel like people in the comments are going to say there are a couple of asterisks to our argument.

What would those be? Murderers, childs. Okay. People who hurt children. Okay. And I've struggled with this thought before of like, even in counseling where they are saying you have to forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive the Lairies and the steves of the world and forget, like, all these people. It is so hard. And I don't know if we can ever truly, with this, with the asterisk, you know, people.

I don't know if I am capable of fully forgiving. I want to. I want to be a person most like Jesus who can forgive someone like that I think my argument to this side of like I agree with this except for those people whoever that those people are in your mind

is I don't even know how to say that but it's like, do I believe in consequences of your actions? Absolutely. If you are someone who has done something so horrific and extreme, such as the M word or the R word or like whatever it is, there are consequences and they should be, you know, fully dealt with. but I also don't think

it is the right thing for me to do as a human to wish upon them to rot in hell you know I want them to feel the weight of their actions why though this is interesting why because I think I think if someone is so consumed by evil

that they do one of these horrific things they are numb to what is good and what is bad. They don't know God's goodness. They don't know the full feeling of love. They don't know what true goodness feels like. And I don't think they can fully feel the weight of their decisions of evil until they know both. And I think if they can't feel the weight of their choice, they can't understand what they've done. And thus they can't change.

So if someone makes a bad choice, they need the consequences so that they can't feel the weight of their bad choices so that they can change. So I would want redemption for them. I would want them, if they're sitting behind bars because of a horrific choice, I would want them to find redemption and to feel good, goodness, not good with their choices.

I would want them to feel goodness and what that is like. And I would want them to be redeemed and know God so they can understand how horrifically you know horrible that's redundant

to know how bad they were and I don't mean that for them to feel worse and to like spiral down rotting in hell black hole but it's I don't think they can know what they've done

until they know both sides until they are redeemed that's fascinating because I'm just trying to think of okay well how do we have less bad or evil in the world and is the answer to excommunicate people who do any bad thing from the get-go so imagine like a kid drew on a wall wasn't supposed to do that that was a bad choice in the grand scheme of things like not not a wildly bad choice it's going to send them to

jail but is the right thing to do to say all right you're done like go to your room you're locked up no see no it's to in inspiring them in understanding of badness and goodness what's right and what's wrong and so i think that is the most powerful way to to eliminate badness and evil is to say hey you did this thing and it wasn't a good thing it hurt many people and it was bad and then they will deeply understand in their soul ah shoot i shouldn't do that anymore you know what i'm saying But this is, again, I could be completely wrong here. These are hot takes, guys. But I think that's foundationally where evil comes in.

So me painting the picture of the worst possible action someone has done in the world. Okay. We know the M word, the R word, the kid stuff. Okay. Okay. I think those things only happen when there is an absence. of understanding goodness and love. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So at a foundational level with a child, kids understand hot and cold, mad and happy, sad, black and white. They understand the extremes and the opposites. That's the easiest thing for a child to comprehend at an early age. Kids also comprehend at an early age, love and not.

Yep. and I think if someone is raised or in a situation in life where there is an absence of that where they don't understand good and evil in the context of like they've never felt love and to be loved I feel like evil can't fully be understood And I think that is where I get so sad in today's world with what what is going on is you can see brokenness because this extreme polarizing world we're living in of like right and left and how dare he and how dare she and she believes this, how could she?

And it's like there is an absence of love. Let me tear this out because I think there's different levels. It's interesting thinking of our oldest six-year-old kid who does directly couple good and bad with loved or not loved. You remember, I mean, there's been several instances recently where I made a bad choice. She's crying and will ask, do you still love me? So let's just detach those two and uncouple them. good and bad does not equal worthy or not worthy now the realm of worthy i think in our family with our kids love is like that's the pinnacle of the worthiness right but i think if it's someone that we

just did a tv show with i don't know if i like love no that's not the word but respect you know we got to know them respect for sure and if it's someone that you've never met i would say maybe grace would be the entry level worthiness. You know, like, you were made worthy, and I will give you grace. And if I know you, I will give you respect. And if you're, like, in my circle, I'll give you love. I don't know.

That's a hot take I need to think through, but. I agree with this idea. Like, you don't have to like someone for you to show them respect. Yeah. And again, this is where I think our world is, like, scary and going wrong is when there is a lack of that, when someone doesn't feel like they're even worth your respect, it's that void of what I'm calling love, that opens up a black hole

of opportunity of violence and hate and evil. If you have both sides not even offering up skills of like respect and decency to listen yeah or to be heard or to talk on both sides that's not me painting a side of one versus together that's both sides when there is a lack of that foundational respect that's where you're opening it up for evil to come in and take over because when there is a void of that black and white good and bad loved and not i think it's where like it's the gray in the middle that causes all of the pain yeah and you saying respect versus liking you don't have to like someone like is like like like is at a level of like friendship if i like you we have enough in common for us to like have this relationship and bond for me to say like I like you as a friend

as a person as a human as a spouse as a whatever below that though should be respect always I agree that's the founder as a qualifier for any relationship and it's not I think we get all mixed up in society because I think people reverse that they think I have they have to like someone to earn respect that's deep and I think that's backwards everyone deserves common courtesy looking someone in the eye listening to their argument asking questions shaking a hand i don't have to like you to do that yeah but you as a human being deserve that respect let me go on a rant about what informs our perspective here. Because I think there's, again, text that backs this up. You know, there's a verse that says in Romans 323, all fall short of the glory of God for all of sinned and fall short of the glory

of God. Okay. Then you think about Matthew 528 who says whoever even looks at a woman lessfully has already committed adultery. So then you're like, okay, we're all done. We're all in the same playing field right whether you did commit adultery or you just looked at a woman lustfully same thing you know it's like wow that is what an aggressive standard that's that is associated with and followed up with this concept that redemption is possible that heaven is possible when he says my yoke is easy and my burden is light so i think there's like eternal perspective on that but there's also currently hey if we're all done and doomed and and dufuses but we all have the capability of goodness because this yoke is easy and the burden is light which is i don't know god is love

we're all made in God's image. We are all, let's see, I think it's Ephesians. Where is it? Ephesians 1 to 7 says redemption can be achieved through his blood, right? Just fascinating to think about, okay, so we're all done, but we all have potential for good. That to me is really important. And if you're, we had multiple conversations recently with people who said, I just want harmony and peace, you know what I'm saying?

Is the best way to achieve peace by trying to construct your external circumstances that might lead to internal peace? Or is it to have the skills, the awareness, the perspective, that no matter what happens outside of me, no matter what my context or environment is, I am able to achieve peace. This all ties into me, in together to me,

because I think like, oh, what you did was a mistake and that upsets me. Yeah. And then now I'm making a mistake because now I'm all pissed and now I'm disrespecting you. And then it goes to this vicious cycle.

What if the mistake was made Nolan void and stopped dead in its track? Because I was like, hey. Because you're unbothered. Yes. Yes. that's what a lot of our counseling was about in marriage

but go ahead you're trying to say sorry I'm not trying to interrupt you but in a roundabout way you're saying people expect the world to bring them inner peace

yes you're saying we have to as humans find our own inner peace that the world cannot affect that I can try

yes but if we can learn how to regulate our own inner peace then anything someone does, the choices they make, instead of being offended and hurt and disrespected, and like it then is no longer your problem. It's someone who made a bad choice, and that's all it is.

It puts that one bad choice in quarantine to be dealt with individually as opposed to compounding and confusing that with another bad choice in my reaction. And I think when you have inner peace like that, which in part is achieved by believing in redemption, by believing that I can be redeemed for my mistakes and you can too, it's like a looser grip on the world, if you will, that it's not trying to white-knuckle this thing to be exactly how you want it to be. That makes you unshakable.

We've gone on some rants here right now. I know. I don't know if anybody wants to listen to this. I mean, when I saw the comments to the video, I was so curious, you know? Comments are interesting. I've had an interesting relationship with comments, especially when they are hateful.

Because, just like we were saying, for a long time, I would read a hateful comment and be like, I would let it hurt me. Yep. But then I changed it and I became curious. Like, why are you, you know, someone writing a hateful comment on a video or a picture? Why are you so hurt by this? And what is it that person could possibly be going through to make them feel so passionately to write hurtful words to someone?

Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think it's interesting in regards to people not believing in redemption. If you don't believe in redemption, that can be religious or not, this redemption period. Life would be very scary. Because you're walking on thin ice. I'm like, oh, shoot, if I make this bad choice or if I do this bad thing. Yeah, I'm not.

Yeah. And if you truly believe that there is no redemption and that if someone makes a bad choice and they're done, they don't deserve the basic respect of humanity, then I would argue there is nobody left standing. Okay, I have to say it, I'm officially obsessed with Branch Basics. Come on. I didn't realize how much junk was hiding in our old cleaning products until we switched.

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judgment of what is considered a non-redemptive mistake. and a redemptive mistake. Right. Which is what's an okay sin and what's a bad sin and what's a small one and what's a big one. And if we as human beings have the power to judge the weight

of right and wrong and saying like, oh, that wasn't that bad. But that was really bad. It's a very dangerous world to be in. You use the word deserving, which is fascinating. You know, it's like,

And that's why, going back to the references I just brought up, it's like, none of us deserve it. No. You know? But if that's the case, then what do you do? You just live in that hopelessness? Or do you say, okay, well, none of us deserve it. What do we do now?

And it's like, let's try to get better. And then if we believe that you can get better, I think that is the, at the essence of redemption. And then to your point about judging, it becomes, it does become so subjective. some people what is fascinating about having been on the internet publicly for 10 years now babe oh my gosh 10 years in December that's when we published our first YouTube video um you're just subjected to this vast volume of opinions most of them are good honestly most of them are bad we talk all the time about how you know those people don't really know us so even the good ones and definitely the bad ones

are like, actually no, equally. They're equally as unimportant, if you will, because they don't know us. But if someone says, Andrew, you're good. It's like, okay, well, are you saying that because I care for my wife and kids? Okay, great. Someone else might say, Andrew,

you're bad because you're not saving the planet or protecting the trees or watching out for the animal wildlife actively or speaking about X, Y, and Z. And so then it becomes a, everyone has their own filter on what they view and what they love and care about, which is amazing. But to translate that into, oh, I really love saving the planet and that person isn't doing it to the intensity that I am, then that's just, that's a losing game because not everybody can scratch everybody's cares in the same deep way that they do. I think there's a lot of like foundational lessons that we teach children that we've forgotten and you know civilized society but something that we tell our children over and over and over

is like God made you uniquely you you have your own interest you have your own look you have your own personality and that is going to be different than every single person around you thank goodness and you need to preserve that yeah we teach kids this some parts of that needs to be refined right sure you're not out of the box how you should be no we need to teach them and show them and guide them but for the most part as society this is like a common belief of like when a little kid comes to you at six and they're like I want to change my name because I want to be more like the girl next to it whatever it is and you're like no like you're you you should be you it's interesting how as adults in our society we have this belief that like

we should all believe the same exact thing and we should all you know be either all right or all left or we should all vote for the same exact person and we've like forgotten this this common foundational basic thing of like we were meant to be very different from one another we can have different religions and different beliefs and that be okay we can still i can still try to persuade you that i think christianity and god is like the greatest thing in the world but i'm not going to judge you for not being that i might go home and secretly pray for you because that's what I believe and I might believe that's right

but it doesn't it doesn't give me the right to judge you and say I am better than you and you need, yeah, I don't know. No, it's interesting. I mean, I would say that plays into

the idea that, man, we're all made in God's image and so if that's a case, yet you and I are different that doesn't undermine that first statement that we're all made in God's image, it expands what my understanding is of like, oh, interesting. Just because that's different doesn't mean it's bad.

If it's made in God's image, it's good, right? So then I think underlying all that needs to be an attitude of like, hey, I'm not going to force this on you or try to make you similar to me in all the ways because there's a chance that I could be wrong.

You know what I'm saying? Like, in every sense of like, I'm not going to judge you for that because, dang, I could be wrong or I could be equally as bad or mistaken or whatever,

you know what I'm saying? And so it's like that I think there's an essence of humility in that as well. Go ahead. Let's bring this around. I was like the same thing. Let's bring this around to marriage.

Okay. This is a couple things. Yeah. Taking everything that we've just ran planted on and vented into a black hole in marriage i think we've said this on another episode but we had a premarital mentor tell us once you should write out your non-negotiables for if this line is crossed you guys are done you're getting a divorce and it's not working i don't believe

in that anymore life is messy people make mistakes we all deserve a chance to be redeemed. Whether we choose to take that, that's up to us. But when it comes to your marriage, as Andrew would say, we will all let each other down in some aspect or another, whether it's big or small, and it is up to us to keep our composure and our dignity and our like wits about us, to have grace, to give basic human respect, and to believe in redemption so that our marriage has a fighting chance for the longevity of our entire life. And if we don't, then I could wake up on a bad day and say, you know what? That one small thing you said actually was so offensive. How dare you do that? Do you not even like love me as a human being? I can't believe

you would think that. I can't believe you would get there. Therefore, if you say that, you don't respect me, you don't love me, it's over. If you don't believe in the redemption side of it, then you're walking on eggshells, your whole marriage. Yeah. I have this whole, I have multiple episodes that I have been thinking about. One of them is like this aspect of hospitality. that's rooted in gratitude. And, like, you know, we've been married for 10 years. I'm not going to have that same compelling, like, when you walk in the door at night, it's like, man, we've been doing this for 10 years.

So naturally, it's not as exciting as when we were dating. And this is my fourth time seeing you and you were just traveling for weeks on end. but what if I did the practices of respect of love that then you know made you feel hospitable or were hospitable for me that made you feel welcomed I have one that I've been thinking about like of this abundance versus scarcity perspective where in marriage it's like you can either have a why don't you ever do this or you can have a man I'm so glad you did that even if it's just one thing

in the vast ocean of things I haven't done so but the idea that we're all going to fall short and let each other down is not a that's not the goal end path right it is a the starting point

that is balanced by the understanding that I'm going to let you down you're going to let me down okay so that takes the edge off the hurt there to some capacity and also it's like um a more empathetic way to have the next interaction it's it's the idea too of if you expect and set a standard for your spouse to be perfect it's suffocating it's like um when I'm getting my nails done and if my nail lady is like saying

don't move your fingers like don't move it it almost like sikes you out to the point of like you can't keep your hands still something so easy all of a sudden becomes impossible it's like if I put an expectation and a standard on you

to be a perfect spouse to make no mistakes it can be crippling the anxiety the pressure of just like always being perfect to where in your mind you're just like I can't make a mistake. I can't make a mistake.

And I'm not saying, hold on the other side of expecting and understanding that, like, your spouse is going to fall short in different areas of life at different times. They're going to have bad days. They're going to say things that are hurtful.

They're going to go through bad seasons. I'm not just saying it's okay to make mistakes. Like, you can't use your, your spouse's grace and respect against them and say, I know she's going to forgive me, I know we're going to get through this, so I'm going to go have an affair on purpose. You know, like, that's not what I'm saying.

But if you allow someone this belief that they know I'm going to fall short and they're still going to be there and they're still going to love me and they're still going to help me through it, it makes you feel like you have so much more value and allows you to be a better spouse. Like, if I come to you and I say, you know what, I really messed up and I did, I can't, whatever.

And you're like, you know what? Thank you for telling me that. I know that was probably hard for you to tell me, but thank you. I forgive you. That inspires me to want to do that more. Yes. And it inspires me as the person who fell short because I'm like, oh, wow, you still love me. and it almost gets rid of this perfectionism obsession and pressure

to where I feel like I can be a human. Yeah. That makes sense. And you're living out of like the overflow as opposed to trying to hit all the strict legalistic rules, right? Yeah. Like even if I'm trying my absolute hardest for you and I fall short on something, rather than being told you made a mistake, I can't be around for this anymore.

If you just see the effort and you're like, I see you trying. I know you may, like you messed up, but I see you trying. It just, it opens up the ability to like have such a more beautiful, fruitful marriage. Yeah. This topic does relate on many levels.

One, to marriage, which is the topic that this podcast is usually about. Two, to parenting, friendships also to the show that we've done I just think it's an important quality it's important pause to have

of like my first inclination is to judge and not be curious it's to judge and not believe in redemption but what if that changed? My favorite thing about special forces is the show that we did it was not incentivized by money

there was no incentive like there was nothing to insidivize you. You didn't even get a trophy if someone crossed the finish line. But there was no elimination at all. If you stayed standing in the race long enough,

then you could be one of them. And there was something so beautifully learned about that. Every single person was brought to their knees in pain and in failure and in anger and we would get put in our

place for don't you dare do that again and they would put they would they would push you to a limit and say you want to quit and if you said no they're like great let's try it again and it was such a beautiful cycle of like you just keep trying you will be rewarded for it yeah it made it very unique because it's not it's so anti-cultural of you just weren't good enough you didn't you know you didn't cross the finish line first you didn't get the highest scores you're not the strongest you're not like it's so anti-cultural the entire premise of that show it's just will you keep trying no matter how

horrible you fail it makes me think of in our counseling they use the example of the Marines and how if you go into an enrollment office today you can sign the papers and have the title of a Marine they will accept you as a Marine there's different tiers

but when you sign the papers even though they'll call you a Marine you then begin begin the process that honestly is never ending for the rest of your life of working towards living like a marine yeah that's a fascinating way to live life where it's like we're all constantly striving towards this unattainable goal but that's the purpose you know what I'm saying last last time we talked about Sisyphus putting the pushing the rock up the hill that's a purpose you know what I'm saying it's like yeah we'll never get there but

were on the path. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I do want to clarify, we're not sitting here saying we're besties with everybody on this cast. We're not saying we like everybody or agree with everything they've ever done. No.

All we're saying is we believe that everyone is worthy of redemption and worthy of respect. And worthy of grace. Yes. And that then begins and unlocks this slow work of healing and closeness or...

enjoyment or friendship might not be possible in certain situations right but redemption and respect are a choice that you extend and i think when you have that grace when you gift that grace it has the power to draw out what is still good and growing in someone and if you're not wanting to associate with someone because of the decision they made, then allow them the grace to make different decisions next time. You know what I'm saying? You wrote on some reflections here that I really like. Can I share them? Yes. Three or four practices of like, how can we implement this into daily life? Okay. One, replace judgment with a statement of respect, such as instead of saying like how dare you or how could you think that say i see your effort or i still believe in you yeah

easy number two offer someone a second chance even a even in a small way if someone has wronged you forgive and say i know you can do better next time give them a chance to redeem themselves yeah and a part of that is realizing that you're part of the problem too because you have some subjective thing that made you feel like they wronged you. And there are certain, definitely things that are violating and intrusive and unacceptable. But a lot of times

relationally, it's not so black and white. Carry on. Number three, practice kindness towards someone you don't feel close to and see how it shifts your heart. Because one of the thoughts I wrote down was

how respect might lead to liking someone. We talk about to know is to love. Doesn't have to? No, it doesn't need to. That might turn someone off? Right. I'm not even saying that's the goal of this,

but I'm saying you at least give it a chance. And we talk about to know is to love. When you give someone the respect, you're then getting to know them better. and then you're allowing the possibility of love, which again is not necessary, but... And another last reflection for you guys. Think about who is one person

you can choose to respect this week even if you don't feel close to them. Even if you don't like them, who is someone you can respect? That's good. In practice. Practice this week thinking about respect as like a basic humanity thing.

It even says down here it says, respect says I see your humanity even if I don't agree with you. That's right. I'm going to read some of these other one-liners too. Kindness does not require closeness. Grace doesn't ignore wrongdoing. It identifies the possibility of growth.

Redemption requires accountability and compassion. I think in marriage, Extending grace when your spouse fails means believing that they can do better next time. Which is a necessarily hopeful perspective. I think with friends and families, redemption means giving space for people to change. And then in the broader community,

it means refusing to write people off as only their worst action. We all have our worst action. If you were defined by that, how do you think your life would feel? And if you already feel like you're defining your life as your worst action, we got to forgive that and move on. Right. Yeah, and it kind of does start with your own self-image too.

But, yeah, that to know is to love. If you're only identifying one person with one mistake, you don't know anything about them. That's all you know about them. You're not going to love that. But if you get to know them and see a whole portfolio on canvas of things, yeah, maybe you'll get to love them. So that was a wild episode. the outline there, but I think it was at least

good for Sean and I. I'm excited to hear what you guys think. Maybe this episode just falls on deaf ears and feels irrelevant because it just doubles down on people's set perspectives on people. But I hope maybe when you hear this episode

and then watch some of the shows, you think, oh, there's probably more behind the scenes that I'm not seeing. So, that's all I got. Do you have anything else? no did you like this as a topic i did i always love having these conversations with you i'm just curious what other people think i feel like you and i have very interesting conversations which i love and we could be wrong dude i don't know i don't know i mean please tell us what your worldview is

and and i also realize that i don't know all the nuances of people's mistakes that they have made publicly and the people on this show people know way more about than we do but in some regards i think that's irrelevant. Anyway, thank you for listening. There's going to be more episodes like this. And what I love about this show, where I'm at with our podcast, is I feel like this is an important topic

that Sean and I need to address and mull over for the sake and benefit of our marriage. And if we're able to share that and four people listen or a single person listens, then interesting. We benefited. Maybe you do,

too. Let us know your thoughts. That's all I got. I'm Andrew. I'm John. Till next time.