Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 315 | We Did LIVE Couples Therapy In Front of a Crowd (with Dr. John Delony)

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

After the incredible response to Dr. Delony's first appearance, we invited him back for a live event with our community. Enjoy a live counseling session with Dr.Delony at our show! If you haven't grabbed your copy yet, The Courage to Commit is officially available wherever books are sold or at the link below. https://thecouragetocommit.com/ Shop Everyday Cotton, and all of my favorite bras and underwear, at https://SKIMS.com. Go to https://kachava.com and use code EASTFAM for 15% off your first order. If you’re thinking about adding a sports court or upgrading your outdoor space, head to https://americasportsconstruction.com to get started, check them out on Instagram @americasportsconstruction. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Welcome back to a couple things interviews. With Sean and Andrew. Today we brought back one of your favorites and one of our favorites and one of our friends, Dr. John Deloney. That's right. We love any chance we get to hang with Dr. Deloney. And this is actually different. This is from one of our live shows that we did for the book tour. We had so much fun getting to see and meet so many of you all in so many different cities. And we loved every second of it. Every night was unique and different. And you guys share so many wonderful stories, had some incredible questions.

Truly. Amazing questions. Great deep thinkers. Great thought. Great conversation. It was amazing. And if you guys are curious to get our book, if you haven't yet, then we'll link that down below. Thank you to you all in advance for that. And thank you to Dr. Deloni for joining us. We hope you enjoy this one with Dr. Deloni. Joining us for this live podcast, he was one of the best, highest listened to. Yeah. Most enjoyed. Yeah. Everybody raved about him on our podcast. It is best. Selling author, speaker, host of the Dr. John Deloney show.

He has also a comedian. He has two PhDs too. Yeah. Like one was enough. He was like, yeah, let me run the back. He's like a real doctor. He's, Oh, no.

It is so humbling. Anyways. Your husband. Please welcome to the stage. One of our greatest friends, Dr. John Deloney. We got you the fancy chair. Yeah, you'll take the thrones. I can just sit on the floor.

That would probably be good. Huh. This is like a perfect representation of our friendship. Oh my gosh. Is everyone in here familiar with that? Wait, why don't you switch it? Okay. What?

You should switch it. No. You should switch it. No. No, we're in this now. We're in this now. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you all for being my friends.

Truly, when you guys. They're my neighbors, and then right when we moved in, they were like, oh, we should, they moved away. This place is going down to hill. Yeah. So we recently did a podcast with Dr. Deloney is all about issues. Just call me John. We're neighbors. We were.

John. Okay. I don't think I've ever called you John. Have I? J.D., I feel like I'm a big nickname guy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So we walk in there and we go through the three sayings that I say in our relationship that doesn't land well, By the way, I just got roasted for this podcast. The only thing I took away from that podcast when we talked about it is that I was right. I just know when I went to my car, I was like, they're both a mess. So just now that. That's great. That's really fair. So we're not going to do that tonight.

Tonight's topic is surrounded. What we're going to talk about tonight is this idea of how do you know when someone, something is good, but it's too much of a good thing. And I've thought about this in my own life as, you know, I'm like a big fitness guy. I'm an athlete. It's like my identity. No, it's weird to see him with a shirt on. It is.

For real. For everybody. The whole world just expects him to be shirtless. Oh, man. This is great. But no, look, that's not just for social media. Like, he was my neighbor. Like, no shirt ever.

I do think he had a reputation in the neighborhood of being the shirtless guy. Do you know what I feel like right now? I feel like everyone showed up with the agenda. Like everyone got a memo like it's make fun of Andrew Knight, which honestly, I'm here for it. If I had a body like yours, I would not be wearing a shirt right now. I have two pair of spanks on underneath this. Okay. I will say this though.

Too much of a good thing. So we've been talking about this a lot and it seems to be a recurring. This is kind of the antithesis to the book, right? Because we write an entire book about commitment, how you should read. we really bought in on something. But there seems to be this redundant story, and it's all the same in different forms that we've been hearing in a phase of life we're in,

where a lot of our friends have been married for a few years, a decent amount of years, started having kids, getting into the, maybe what we would call in our book is like, boring middle, where you've lost the honeymoon phase of a marriage. But we've been hearing this story of someone in the marriage finds a new love. Not in a person.

Not yet. But like a hobby. And they're like, this is my new identity. And I love it. And I need to commit to it. Some people, it's been fitness.

Some people, it's been, you know, their jobs. But that becomes... Cleanliness. What? Like tidiness.

For some people. But there, there's this thing that they... We'll just blow by that. That's great. there's this thing that they latch on to. And I think we've heard this probably three times in the past year, where that commitment became too much to where it sacrificed a marriage, a family,

and it led to a brokenness because of how much they committed to something. So open up for conversation. But how can you commit to something and know where they're going to something and know where the balance of it is. I'm super, we all have been married 24 years next month, so a long time. Only about four of them have been great,

okay? I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I have become very weary of any identity label I put on something that is not husband. And so we were just talking about it backstage. I do public speaking for a living.

And then a couple years ago, through like a, it was kind of like a dare to a funny thing. I went over to Zanies with a buddy and we did stand up a few nights. He was done with it. And I was like, I mean, it was like, I was just snorted it off the counter. I live, I live at Zanis now. I live there. They're like, dude, why are you here? I'm like, I've got to be here.

And but like, and I'll tell you this, the one of the times I was going to see somebody, like a famous comedian was coming through town. I walked through and I was standing in line to buy tickets and somebody stuck their head out of the little window and they're like, oh, no, no, he's a comic. He can just go in. I was like, that's what's up. Dude. But it was like, yeah, that's who this guy is, right? And it's not. And if I made, I think maybe there's layers, if I make the ultimate commitment to say I'm a person of faith, if I make the ultimate commitment to, if I make the ultimate commitment to,

to say, you and me till death do his part, which I gave that commitment to my wife. That supersedes everything. And so the way I like to describe it is, me and my wife have a secret world, and it's ours. Our kids can't go in there. Our hobbies don't go in there. It's ours. And there's times when I say, she'll say, like, you need to go over to Zanis because you're obviously not getting enough external validation at this house, get some strangers to clap for you because it's not happening here. but like but when I go do that when I when I work get up early and go work out or whatever it's so that I can show up at home better and so if the thing I'm doing if the thing I'm passionate about or that I'm falling in love with or whatever if that's not in service to this

to the the main commitment I've made then you end up six inches apart from each other on the couch but you're just 6,000 miles away from each other right you're both just on your own devices and you're off another planets so the thing to answer your question the thing I'm doing has to be in service to those ultimate commitments. Otherwise, it divides up. I get my own secret world. She gets on hers and we end up light years apart from each other. Can't you argue, though, that the world is preaching the completely opposite, like, narrative? Because people, I feel like I get on social media or Instagram and people are saying we should all be in a midlife crisis and what is your identity and what do you do for a living and what's your hobby.

You have to go find yourself. And this is, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, speaking to married, family-oriented people, and people are pushing a narrative of, you have to have something in order to be fulfilled. For like self-care, you're saying? Mm-hmm. Well, it's, I mean, moms in the room, there's such a pressure on moms to go find yourself

after you have your kids. What do you love? And people aren't referencing your children or your husband. They're saying, but what do you love? You need to have something. What is your thing? What do you need to strive for? What's the title?

What's the job? What's the paycheck? People are not in our world preaching this idea that contentment within a marriage and a family is enough. It's madness. Yeah, it's madness. To me it stems from that probably the stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic thing we can all hear, which is to follow your passion. It's literally the stupidest thing our culture has given us.

It's given us a lot of stupid stuff. but like I worked in universities for 20 years and my students would be like but I'm not passionate about and I just would be like I can't kill you because I'll go to jail but stop talking right it's just such dumb things but it's as though okay I've made this commitment I've made a human I've made multiple humans I've given myself to this to my spouse but that's over here now I need to go to this other thing and I think I called you late at night I hadn't seen Nope, that's not true. I had read an article that blew my mind.

It was the first person I heard, call it out. And for me, I'm kind of like a, like, what's the cosmos saying to me? And I read this article, and then I got the draft of your book. And the article was like, we're allowed to commit to everything except to commitment. And if you anchor into anything, you're told that's weak, you're on thin eyes. something's going to fall apart, right? And then I got y'all's book, and I think I called you late. And I was like, dude, y'all, this is it.

This is so good. And because it's so countercultural, and that's where the freedom is, right? That's where, that's when you, it's like playing football, right? It's like if there's no rules and there's no boundary lines, everyone would be in the hospital. It would just be murder ball, right? Which would be awesome, but we had all die, right? But like, when everyone knows, here's the boundaries of this game, then you're free to go have the time of your life.

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I've been wearing it under t-shirts, workout clothes, pretty much everything. It feels comfortable all day and I never find myself wanting to take it off the second I get home. I think that's the highest compliment you can give a bra. It really is. The fact that you can wear it and not want to take it off is about the best. That's why I seriously would recommend Skims to all of my friends. I recommended it to a stranger the other day.

Truly. They just make everyday essentials feel better. Comfortable, flattering, and actually designed for real life. Shop, everyday cotton, and all of my favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcasts in the survey, and be sure to select our show in the drop-down menu that follows. So you said you're not doing zanies except for it to be in service to your marriage and your commitment. It makes me think of when people say, oh, don't do this unless it serves you.

And I wonder, like, is that the same language, the same use of that term? So there's this awesome guy. His name is Will Goddara. After you read this book, he wrote a book called Unreasonable Hospitality. And he's awesome. He's that awesome of a human, like behind closed doors. But he told me this once, we were backstage getting ready to go speak at a thing. And I was asking him about, like, being a restaurant person.

and in New York at that level of restaurant, they're real, like, people are full-time waiters. That's what they do. They make a great living doing that. And he said the hardest thing was taking these amazing waiters who are full of charisma and charm and reminding them, your shift can't start until you'll go back through the kitchen all the way to the back and fill up your pitcher. So you can spend the rest of your night making sure everyone your serving is water's full. And that was a good, like, I can't. It sounds counterintuitive, but I,

I have to be in service to myself so that I can show up and serve, give my entire self away to my wife, to my kids, and on and on. So I have a responsibility to them to make sure I'm okay, that I need to go see a counselor. I got to go exercise. I got to do these other things. I got to have adventurous, fun things here so that when I walk through those doors, I am all theirs, right?

Haven't you found, though, at least I have with my hobbies or the things that I enjoy doing, fitness being one of them, where it teeter-totters being legitimately like, oh, this is the right amount for me to fill up my picture versus I'm way overdoing it. And I'm cloaking it with this idea that like- 100%. That's what she's for. Okay.

Yeah. Right. I mean, like, no, that's what a group of good men in your life is for. That's what you're a good spouse is for. It's what a counselor's for. It's what a spiritual advisor is for. It's just like, I mean, y'all did that show where you ran around and played Army Men women for a while but like but like I was kidding so rad to watch that show and be like they're right

down the street it was awesome um or to like think I'm so tough and cool like I watch a lot of John Wick and I'm like no they could kill us all of us on the whole block but like you would never those guys would never go into battle without eyes in the sky right and so yeah left our own devices we're going to follow our own noses and what feels good and what sounds good and what is affirming to us. And that's what people who hold us accountable. That's what referees are for, right, to make sure we're standing about. Bringing it back to the first story I was saying where we've been seeing this consistently now,

just kind of in the phase of our life with friends who have fallen off, you know, in their marriage. And it seems like something that I keep hearing, though, is, but that meant that whatever it started, but that meant so much to me. I needed to finish training for that marathon, or I needed to finish getting to this next, you know, job hierarchy system in the ladder. I needed that to feel good about myself in order to be a better spouse,

but in doing it, they sacrifice their marriage at the same time. How can you be self-reflective enough to protect a commitment like a marriage? but also strive for goals in life. Okay, can I tell you all the story? I may have told you all this before. So if I have, just be like, you're running about. So I was writing a book about anxiety, which is hilarious about what I'm about to tell you this story.

My family came in, my whole family lives in Texas. Like when we were moving from Texas to Nashville, like my dad in his late 60s, early 70s, like sat me down and was like, you don't leave Texas boy. Like, it was like that. Like, Al-Qaeda is waiting at the Arkansas border to, like, anybody who leaves Texas, right? And so they came for, like, 10 days. My sister came.

My little brother came. His wife came. My little brother, he's 40. But, like, his wife came. Like, everybody was there. And it was one of those family things that, like, two days in, everyone knew that this is going to be way too long, right? And so everybody stayed through.

We were all annoyed with each other, whatever. And I got COVID at the end. I was sick. and I was down in our basement gym working out, because you never miss a day. Right, I'm shut out, right? Yeah. And so I'm sick.

I'm not doing good just with everything. My manager calls. There was two speaking gigs I was hoping to get. And if I got them, it was going to change me and my wife's life forever. It was a big deal. And he called and he said, hey, you got a second. This is over Christmas break. And I was like, yeah, what's up?

And he was, you know, those two things that were out there? And I was like, I could tell him his voice. I was like, oh, we didn't get it. And he goes, we got him. Because he gets paid off a piece of what I get. And so he was screaming. I was screaming. My wife came down.

My wife is like a walking Xanax. She's super chill. She has to be. And she comes down the stairs in the basement. And she's like, what are you yelling about? She's smiling. And I was like, I got these gigs. Like, this is it.

I'll just tell you, her parents were school teachers. My dad was a policeman. So we didn't come from much of anything. And these two gigs were going to allow us to be the first person we knew in our families that paid our house off. It was a thing. And so we'd worked on it for 20 years together. And so I'm sick, yelling, cheering. And she said, when I get like this all hyper, she's real good, she backs away.

And then she will come back later with knives, but she'll come back later. And she said, she didn't do that. stepped into the hurricane this time and she said this she said I'm watching my husband die and I'm watching him cheer the whole way and I got mad I was like what are you talking about we just did it and she put her hands like this and she said the pie chart that is how much I love you and the pie piece that is how much money you make is full and I said what do you mean and she said I'll get choked up every time every time I think of this and she said I told you what I mean married you, I would never tell you no. Go find yourself a stage and go get on it. Go do your thing.

But don't you dare say this is for me and for the kids. This is for you and your ego. And I got real upset. I was like, who do you think, like, what are you talking about? Who do you think you are? And she said this. She said, John, we have enough. And she walked upstairs. And I realized in that moment, I did not have a psychology for the word enough. I didn't know what it meant. the reason I tell you that is fast forward I'm in the edit part of this phase which if you know anyone who's written a book

this is the part when you want to just set yourself on fire just to see if you still feel anything anymore I'm busier now 5x than I was at that time but we know what writing a book is like and we know that my wife loves her big crazy mass of gardens that we have and we know that John loves to get out and hang out with people with strangers

because he's got real low self-esteem and his kids and wife can't meet that. And so I'm busier now than I've ever been, but a year ago we sat down with a calendar and said, what must be true for us over this coming year? Because we know come this point and this point, you're going to be tough to be around. And so let's start putting relational deposits. So all that to say is we planned a year ago

for the craziness that was coming. And so if you are doing life together and you fully committed to this thing and one of you wants to run a marathon, awesome. It's going to come at a cost. Let's have that conversation. If we want to do a TV show together, it's going to come at a cost.

If every Saturday you want to get around with 40 other dudes and take your shirts off and just like oil each other, whatever y'all do. Like, and then post about it. He's never invited me. I'm jealous. That's just me. I would for sure be like a shirt on guy, but one day. Like, that's awesome.

We're just going to make plans for that. What people get themselves in trouble is, this is mine and it doesn't include you. But this commitment came first. And so to me, the anchoring is go do whatever wild, crazy wild adventure stuff you want to do, but be honest about the cost. It's like buying a car. Like, buy whatever rad car you want. Just make sure you have enough money to buy it.

right and plan for it and if you don't have it right now cool we're just going to save money over this time until we buy that car it's a very similar thing but anytime you find yourself i need to do this for me not you that to me is the tension right and i got to go through that doorway otherwise i'm making an affirmative choice to end that commitment it gets confusing when it's when it is a good thing like if there's a bad habit that sean is pressing into it's like it's easy to have that conversation let's do this what's a bad habit Sean has that you yeah perfect perfect. Go for it. No, no, no, here. Well, let me ask this

question first. Because I also want to be a supportive husband, too. And so there's, like, grace that's a part of that. There is support, you know, like, yeah, yeah, let me rally behind you and what you're trying to do. And then that so easily, I feel like, can turn into some type of twisted enablement in some ways. And I heard

this phrase, I can't forget. It's it's like when a marriage ends in a mess it's like man that wasn't the other person's fault but it was their problem meaning like that day-to-day maintenance of are you enabling this are you letting them you know are you letting them off the hook and yeah you can go hang with your boys seven nights a week or you know do this and and you're not like checkpointing them because it's like this it gets confusing when you're oh well now i'm just bickering all the time because I'm like, no, you can't do that. No, you can't do this. And it's also not right to say, yeah, go do whatever you want. And so the role of a spouse and supporting your husband or wife

is tricky too. And is it just based off the feel of like, no, that's too much. So you've got to rein it back in. It goes back to the thing we talked about when I was on your show last, which is having the courage to say, here's a story I'm making up, right? Like, your marathon's more important than us right now. Your whatever, your music career, your workout program is more important than us sitting on at the table. It's a story I just made up. I made it up and it makes me feel low.

It makes me feel less than. Is that true? Right? And you might say, no, no, no, no. I want, you just don't like me. That's why I work out so much or because it makes me feel better, whatever. But it, like, resentments are like, There's a nerd way to say this.

I'm trying to think of the quote in my head. It's so good. It's so perfect. And I don't have it in my head. Sing for a second like you usually do. Just sing. And I... Yeah, exactly.

Perfect. You just got buried further. Essentially, oh, conflict deferred is conflict amplified. That's it. And so if I don't do it, if I don't say something, If I don't ask that second question, if I don't say, hey, this is the world I'm feeling. I am choosing to get at a tiller and begin tilling soil that I'm going to plant seeds of resentment in.

I got to own that. I can't own your behavior. I can't own yours. But I can own that I didn't say anything, that I got quiet. And obviously, if you're an abusive situation or something, that's, like if I know, oh, I can't say something because I got to protect poor Andrews's feelings or Sean's going to get mad or whatever. But I have to choose to enter into those things, right? If we both said I do, then you've got to enter into those spaces. Couples co-create their worlds, right?

They co-create them. And I often get them when one person has just pulled the pin on their grenade. Not always, but often everybody created a world where what ultimately happened makes perfect sense based on how they did this dance for six months, two years, five years, or whatever. I've realized about myself is that I do best when I stick to a few simple daily rituals. For me, that's usually getting outside for a walk in the morning, having a little quiet time before the day gets going, and making sure I start the day with something that actually fuels me. The challenges that summer usually means travel, which usually means changing schedules and being out of your

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Go to cachava.com and use code e-fam for 15% off your first order. That's Cachava, k-a-a-v-a-v-com, code E-Sfam. Why are people so afraid of commitment? In your world. In your world,

you see relationships so much. It's like, you just wrote a book on it, didn't you? You tell me. it's a great question I think it's got 50 answers to it but

well I was just going to say part of the audience we wrote this book for was like we we hear all the time from eager young females who are like man I just I'm ready to get married you know like whether people at home

are friends family it's like but there's no guy out there who's ready to like it's like for some reason a male specific problem it seems like it's all All the men. It's kidding.

And I just, it's baffling. I don't think it's a male-specific problem at all because we have close, single male friends who have brought home to their friends, great women. And they will find the smallest thing. They're like, there's someone better.

But all I want is to get married. They don't. Why? All I want is to want to get married. married. And I think, I mean, it just, it goes, I mean, it's why I thought your book was so powerful. It's, it's, it's so countercultural. You're told you're crazy. If you have the job of your life and you love it, if you don't have a couple of other lines out in the water, if you're not networking or whatever, you're told you're nuts. You're crazy. If you don't have another kind of side hustle cooking just in case, you're told you're

crazy. And that same mentality bleeds over into relationships. Like, man, go all in, but like, keep your own foot over here. Dude, I've gotten murder bombed on the internet. I still don't know how these stupid internets work. For saying two things of all the crazy stuff I've said. I thought I was getting canceled when I said there's no such thing as a pet parent. There's pet owners. I love my pets.

But that having a human kid is different than having a cat kid. This is a soft subject. Good. And I did not know that was such a bad thing. I refused to retract it, but I am not going to say it. Touching stuff. And I forgot what the second thing was. What was the second thing?

I don't know. It was in your head. It was in my head. You said you had two things. Yeah, you commented on it. That you have said that caused a murder bomb. Yeah. What were we talking about before that?

I don't know either. Andrew had like, Andrew had like 30 tequila shots back there. We've been hammering them for. We have not. Edit that out of the podcast. That's not true. The two things you've gotten canceled for. But it's, yeah, I don't know.

I feel like it does come. If it makes you feel better, I was going to say something, but I completely forgot to. So now we're just going to go to go to that. I think your thing canceled out my thing. What's the other thing I got in trouble for? I don't know. Yeah, we're all helping.

Oh. Wow. Yes. Let's go. When I said, I think it's, It's nuts that people will share DNA and make humans together, but they won't share a checking account. I think couples should share a checking account, just one.

You got murder bomb for that? Oh, my. Yes, on all sides of the aisle. Of all things. But here's the thing. If I won't trust you with my, I want what's mine, right? And our culture has said, if you don't keep something on the side just in case, then you're crazy. And if you do get in the boat with somebody and say, here's our life, if you get in with an employer and say, I'm all in, I'm going to come work for your company and we're going to serve this customer with the best of our abilities, roofers, whatever.

But you keep one foot out. You're just guaranteeing that that boat can never get where it wants to go, right? And so I think it's cultural that you're just told you're nuts. And I'll also say this when it comes to commitment in marriage, very few people had good pictures of what that was. was. Like the rates of our parents, the divorce rates actually fall on quite a bit, which surprises people, but it's because fewer and fewer people are actually getting married. And so most people are like, I want to do this thing, but it's like, I want to play basketball so bad. Have you ever seen a game played? Like, no. I saw a pickup game at the YMCA with a bunch of

shirtless dudes, right? Like, I saw that game, but like, I've never been to, I'll quit. But, like, I've, I've never been to an NBA game and seen one played, right? And so there's a, I want this thing. I want someone to write or die with. I want to love somebody. I want to create a world with somebody. But I don't have a picture of what that looks like. And what do we do?

We pick up our phones and start scrolling. And there's very few good pictures of what that looks like. One of my favorite things that Andrew and I do along the lines of like keeping one foot in or one foot out is I feel like we, for better or worse, go all in on things. Causes a lot of arguments, but we do it. And we have a way to have checking in on how we're feeling about going all in on our jobs or whatever it is, where one of us will say, like, how are we doing? If we lost absolutely everything today, would we be okay? And we, our gauge is like, if we can answer that honestly and say yes, that means we're not valuing, you know, external affirmation or the vanity or. the titles or anything, that we're actually just doing it for fun,

and we'd be okay starting over. But we try to ask ourselves that on a regular basis. It's pretty dark, y'all. Don't you think? All right, honey, before we make out, what if we lost everything? I think. I'm good. Are you good?

It does sound dark. Let me explain it a little bit deeper, though, so it doesn't sound as dark. It's more so this idea of we'll set goals, right? Give me a goal. Building the house we just moved into was a goal. That's not on my street anymore. That's not on your street.

Yeah. But we had it like on a vision board, this idea of like being on an acreage with our kids and everything. And we believe that if you put too much identity in something that isn't rooted in like for us, our faith or our family, then you're putting your identity in the wrong place, right? So we worked really, really hard in our business. We got ourselves there.

We found ourselves in our house. But if we start valuing that house, more than just us and just our kids at the foundational level, then all of a sudden that house means too much. Yes. So every year my wife and I get together, and I heard this quote once, I think it was Esther Prell that said,

most adults have four or five great loves in their lifetime, and if you work really hard, it can do it with the same person. And I loved that. And I kind of taken that and run with it. I think that's way underselling it. think I'm on version 17 of me. My wife still got just, she's just still 1.0.

She's just kind of right or die. I'm just kidding. She's a totally first too. But when we sat across the table, my wife and I, and we had called it, we were sitting there really to decide, are we going to be adults and end this thing, our marriage, like grownups,

are we going to be adults? And, or are we going to do something? Are we going to build a new marriage? Because the one we had is over. It's over. It doesn't exist. Now, so many, years later, every year, every January, we get together in literally, it's an exercise. We

swipe the deck clean. And we say, okay, we've never been married. We have a 16-year-old. He's driving out. We've never been married with a 16-year-old. For me, getting my car was the crazy, it was the awesomest thing ever for her. High school for me, I peaked at 17. It has just been a slow descent for me. I loved high school. She hated every second of it, right? And so when my son was getting ready to go to high school, I was like, it's happening and she was just she was anxious right we'd never been married we'd never been married with a 16 year old and we have a 10 year old

right so we have a kid driving and we have a kid that's like 10 year old it's awesome so every year we swipe the deck and we're like we get to choose what this looks like do we want to have this much time or this not much time and we high five and that's that's the thing and we're about to in july we touch base half the year and say what the plan we had some of it's come true some of it hasn't, are we still good with the plan that we made?

And let's make a new one, right? The thing I think most people forget, with all the cultural messaging, you know, we're talking about before with the jelly and I love that. The thing that scares me the most about our current culture is we're all told this happened to you one time, you had this thought, you're too dumb. Our culture has told us, just pat yourself, we'll pat you on the head, you go to the corner and we'll make all these decisions for you. and the root of psychological well-being is this nerd it's agency it's autonomy are you in the dry

receipt of your life and so at that table i'll never forget this my wife said we're it was like four-hour conversation and by this point we were laugh crying you know you know those those talks just so exhausted and she said well we built we we built a really crappy marriage i guess we could build an awesome one and that was the light like, oh yeah, we're driving. We can do whatever we want. We're adults. It was John Chris was telling me one time.

He was like, you're a grownup. You can't get in trouble anymore. If you don't murder, like, other than that, like, who are you going to get in trouble? And I was like, yeah, like, I'm a grown up. Like, I'm not getting in trouble. Like, we can do whatever we want. That's her and I. And then it was this freeing thing of like when it comes to intimacy, when it comes to our money,

when it comes to where we live, I always wanted to live on a house, on acreage, out in the woods. I don't want anyone know where I live, all that. And we lived there for about five years. In South Franklin, out in, I mean, it's meth and banjos way out there. I mean, it's awesome. And then at our annual retreat, she was like, hey, I have, like, we have our, like, our time to put our big stuff on the table.

And she's like, I hate to be one of those wives, but I want cell signal and running water all the time, like, stuff like that. And so that's how we ended up on y'all street, like, in society, right? It was awesome. But, like, that was a hard thing for her to say. And going back to what you're saying, like, I love her enough to say, okay, what do I need to do then to get that world I want, I need, but also love my wife recklessly, right? And same for her, right? So it's just coming back to the table and saying we get to choose what this thing looks like. It just constantly surprised me, though, how dynamic prioritizing things in life are.

though. Like, okay, we got, we have three kids, sweet. And I thought I got to rearrange some things in my life to fit what this face looks like. And that's the, that's the, that perfect, awesome, home run. I failed the test. No, you just, no, you just like, so much of our, the burden of our day-to-day life is that we're grabbing, we're still carrying all of our old life with us. And we just want to cram whatever new thing is coming into this old life. And the moment you can let go and say, that doesn't exist anymore. Like, as soon as Hank was born, I remember my wife got pregnant, and I was like, oh, sweet, like in nine months, I get my wife back. Because she started, man, she's a list maker, that's her drug, is making lists, and those lists got wild. And I was like,

okay, nine months. And then when Hank was born, I was like, probably going to be another nine months. like so and it was like constant and then we had pregnancy loss another one then a third one in a row and then i'm supposed to go a doctor and i didn't and then josephine came along right so none of that was in the playbook but every time i was trying to carry okay cool we have a kid i'm going to keep doing all this other stuff chase all my academic stuff whatever and then we'll just wrap a kid in there and then josephine comes plus all the grief and loss and all that We'll just wrap up that. And it was not until I realized, okay, that part of my life is over.

We have a new marriage. I'm a new employee at this place now. Like, everything starts over what we want it to look like. And to me, it's so much more freeing than trying to drag all this other junk with us. That's really well. And if you're a person of faith, to me, that's the story of the gospel is like, I took it. Set it down.

Like walk free that way, right? The more you're trying to carry that stuff with you, the more you're not going to be able to do ultimately what you're called to do. That was incredible. That was good. That was incredible. Why don't we pause there and do some topic-specific questions? Any questions? Anyone brave enough?

Dude, let's get weird. Yes. What is commitment? He's saying? Why are people afraid of commitment at all if they aren't doing it? So for different reasons. And I think some people are, we define commitment.

is just like sticking with something almost like this iteration of persevering and like pushing through i i think uh as we write in the book like when you ride the highs and the lows and the twists and the turns and you're like in a marriage i'm understanding that okay i can't i can't change the marriage i'm not going to that's not the thing i'm going to change i'm going to change the me that's like a really amazing place to be. And I think a lot of people try to change the marriage or, you know, the thing that they're committed to, as opposed to saying, oh, how do I need to adjust now to be the best for this? And I think people are, I mean, that's like an uncomfortable process. I think that's part of the reason. I think there are a lot of, like, Tinder, when you look at Tinder in the dating world.

Have you been on Tinder? the whole swipe right thing it's like uh there's this there is this idea tell us more andrew there's this idea that oh there's there's going to be something else right around the corner you know and i don't like this one so let me move on to the next one and that i'm not like it's that's a hard process to say i'm picking this one and i'm i'm not looking at the other grasses i'm going to make mine greener you know i'm looking at my my lawn we argue in the book, this idea that the cultural narrative right now is that if there's any discontentment, unhappiness, hardship, or roadblock, the world is actually telling you you must have chosen wrong.

And I think people get really afraid of commitment now because the world's narrative says there's no right choice. Or even scarier, they say there is one right choice and it's the perfect one. You just have to find it. And that is so terrifying to people because you get right at the edge of saying, oh, this must be my person, my thing, my job. But what if it's not the perfect one? Then I'm going to have to quit it at some point or get a divorce or start over. And so people just endlessly wait. And I think everybody's biggest fear is messing it up, which you will, but you can fix it. Thank you for the question. And so I'm curious what your idea is as to how to encourage productive struggle in kids who have instant gratification.

In the nerd world, they call them Little Winds. I think we've over-ar-O-wide everything. Everything. I'll tell you this, this isn't a joke. I'm not even being silly, and it sounds silly, but it's not. I had met y'all a few times before. I think Rachel Cruz introduced us when, like I knew them. We'd met a few times. I was in my front yard and I saw Jet, their youngest,

on some sort of the coolest bike I've ever seen, wearing a motorcycle helmet. And there's a hill that you kind of go up the hill. This is where the common folk live. And you go down the hill. It's where they live, down that way. He comes flying over the hill alone, down the hill towards St. B's probably at Mach 10, just flying.

And then I saw Andrew, I think all of y'all, we're riding your bikes and trying, like, just going. And I walked in, I told my wife, it's like, they're amazing parents. Because they're letting these kids try stuff and fail at stuff and explore stuff and get little tiny winds over and over and over. Not, hey, we have a vision for you where you're going to be a motocross rider, so here's what you have to do at this time. How old is he six?

Four? Yeah, he's four, right? And, like, so I think when it comes, like, my previous world was education. I think we've sucked a soul out of education. Education is a relationship between a student and a teacher, and they co-learned together. And we've turned it into, you owe me this grade on this test, or I don't get a job.

So figure it out, kid, right? No kid can carry that weight. right, of adult expectations, it's madness. And so what kids don't do is they don't love learning. Tiny little wins over and over, and kids begin to see the value of struggle. And then they, like watching my son run cross-country the last fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade,

and then watching this year, the switch flipped. And I ran track in college for a year. Like, I love it, and I've tried my best to not push it on him, and it flipped. And now he's like, dad, tomorrow morning, I'm going to get up on the captain. I'm going to get up earlier. And you're like, okay, right?

But it was little win, failure, failure. Little win, little win, failure. And I think they have to have those moments. And we have to stop saying, you better choose your passion now in third grade or you're not going to get in this class in fifth grade. You're not going to get in that right algebra class in seventh grade. And then you're going to be a loser.

Right. Like that's insanity, right? It's madness. And so as a teacher, you're trapped 360 degrees, right? by everyone's expectations and everyone's like everything it's can i go back to that connection with this kid and this kid and this kid and can i just wait for those moments when that light bulb flashes right and those are holy moments i think yeah and one thing i thought of is like what's the difference between productive struggle and just struggle and it is like that's if we're using

parenting as an analogy it's such a wonderful responsibility to understand like, okay, this one, he's just, this is a productive struggle and he needs to stay in it because he's capable. But this one, same situation, that's just a struggle and we do need to hold their hand a little bit more. Like the bike situation, Drew is terrified of that hill. And so it's like, okay, well, let's figure out a way, if you go on the grass on the side, they'll slow you down a little bit and like, you don't need to be ripping down. But Jets totally capable. Jets at the bottom with a cigarette. He's like, what a little? Dude, I don't know if he's a, he's a full sleeve tattoo that he put up.

I was like, my boy, dude. I'll take him to get his first tattoo. That'd be so great. I don't even know how I feel about our kids having tattoos. I have tattoos, but... They're going to get them because I'm going to buy them. It feels right on him. I'm just like, it will happen. It does.

Can I say one more thing about this? And I get too long winded just kick me. I'm an obsessive, like problematic fight fan. I had been for like 20 years before the UFC was the thing, okay? like problematically and neighborhood fights I love neighborhood I'm just kidding so there was a great fight team out of Brazil

because shoot a box way back in the day and they would just storm events and all their fighters would beat everybody and their practices were legendary because they would all just fight all the time that's all they did they would spar 24-7 and then they would go to these events and just clean up the place

and after a few years of doing that all their fighters started getting hurt. A lot of them have CTE issues now. They're struggling to speak. And a lot of professional fighters now, you spar when you get paid. Or we'll have very limited sparring where we're going lights out

because, and we're going to work out and we're going to drill and do these other things. And I tell you that to tell you, we've somehow been told this crazy thing where like perseverance for the sake of getting hurt, the sake of getting beat up, the sake of the grind is somehow altruistic.

You get some big ROI at the end. I don't think that's right. There is, if you're going towards a thing, you're going to have a ton of struggle, and you've got to keep that end in mind all the time. But you keep that in mind 10 minutes at a time, an hour at a time, a lunchtime, a dinner time, right? And so I want to have married my soulmate in the rearview mirror of our life.

I want us to be 90 years old, sitting on the front porch, hope to God I go first. And I want her to be like, oh, I lost a lung and a part of my heart, right? But we are going to get there making choices, like right before I came here, my wife just flew into town. I was like, to my 16-year-old, bro, we got to get this house picked up because she can't come home like that, right?

But it wasn't like, because mom's going to get mad. It's because this is what I'm trying to teach him. This is how we can honor your mom when she walks in this house. And so I think you just mentioned, like, there's productive struggle towards a goal, towards a thing. And then there's this cultural thing. Like everybody has to be miniature David Goggins where like you just have to wake up and suffer for the sake of suffering. And I don't think that's, I don't think that's good for anybody.

You end up broken down the side of the road if you live like that. I kind of got dark there with your time. They can't stop. They can't speak anymore. It's like, geez. Yeah, it's cool. Golly. Okay.

We genuinely cannot believe what we're saying this. We're here. We're doing it. We're here. Our book is out. I don't know whether to cry, sleep, celebrate. I think we need to do all of them. Yeah, it's been a grind.

It truly has felt it truly feels surreal because this project started as a bunch of conversations just between the two of us, notes on our phones, ideas scribbled down late at night, things we are learning in our lives and relationships that we wanted to share. And we are currently out on tour having these same conversations with you all. It has been such a treat, so thank you all who have joined us. And somehow these conversations turned into an actual book that's sitting on shelves that we just saw for the first time here at Barnes & Noble in Philadelphia. Philadelphia, and it's about to show up on your doorsteps. We poured so much of ourselves into the courage to commit, not because we have everything figured out, but because we have learned that the best things in life often require us to lean

in before we feel completely ready. This book is about relationships, purpose, faith, risk, growth, and choosing commitment in a world that constantly tells us to keep our options open. Whether you've been following us for years or you just found our podcast, thank you for being a part of this journey. Seeing your messages, photos, and support these last few weeks has meant more than we've been we could ever put into words. If you haven't grabbed your copy yet,

the courage to commit is officially available wherever books are sold online or in store. If you're curious what the book is about, we essentially explore how commitment is an invitation to allow something to shape your habits, your routines, and your everyday life. And that is responsibility that's worth talking about. Seriously, guys, thank you for helping us

make this stream a reality. Yeah, I just wanted to see if you'd be able to dive in deeper into like what I think is probably if not the biggest commitment one of the biggest commitments in your life and that's dying to yourself daily and even like Francis Schaefer says moment by moment and how that affects I mean in a I would assume in a positive way more than anything else in your marriage in parenting and everything that you're doing good job I love that idea And honestly, that's, if more people were asking, how can I die to myself daily? Like, that's, I feel like that's the expert level course where it's, like, that is what we are trying to, that we've learned through athletics where it's like, man, it's not about me and my comfort.

It's about what does the team need? How do I show up today best? How do I, how can we improve this? And I think a lot of people aren't even allowing that process to start in the little daily tight. of, oh, hey, let me, this thing wasn't convenient for me today. So I'm just going to put that aside and I'm going to find the next thing that is convenience for me. I love that idea of living life in an approach that it's about dying to yourself every day.

I just, it's at least something I've struggled with that I've had to learn through other commitments like athletics, marriage, parenting. What's the little saying that you say about? You gotta be comfortable of being uncomfortable. I'm gonna... Who let the dogs out? Who? I'm gonna have a brain fart now.

Your impulsive decisions now, but based off of your, like what you want in the future. Discipline is... Abraham Lincoln said this, but thank you. People get me mixed up with them all.

It happens all the time. Discipline is being able to decide between what you want now and what you want most. Yes. I relate that a lot to dying to yourself every day. because we're so impulsive. We're impulsive creatures. We want instant gratification.

We want to feel good, be happy every second of every day. But we also have bigger goals, and I don't think those match up. So being able to say, like, I have to get rid of all of my selfish ambition today to help foster my children's growth or my marriage. It's like you have to be very aware of both of those. the secret built into dying for yourself that I think so awesome it's like generosity I can say I could have had 17 more minutes literally doing nothing watching YouTube videos or something or I could build something I can give him a picture of what

being a good husband looks like we could do a funny thing together because we're making jokes and playing loud music and whatever when we're cleaning up but I could focus on the 17 minutes of my time that I lost, or I can sit here right now, imagining my wife walking through the door and just going, right? I win. I still win, right? And so the beautiful thing about dying to yourself is you get your eyes out of your own belly button and you look up and you see a world full of people who need glass of water. And built into that act of giving yourself away minute by minute is such a powerful reward, right? it's way better than getting all the water and being like, ha-ha.

It's a hollow way to live. You know what I'm saying? And so once you flip that script, once you turn it over, I think it's, I don't know, it's as addictive as anything out. Like, who can we go serve? Who can we go serve? Right. I just think it's a different way to, if you can make that mindset shift, man,

what a powerful thing. Okay, Dr. John, we have a specific question for you. somebody used the internet's yes somebody used the internet's the WWW how okay this is for Dr. John Deloney how do you know

when it's time to walk away from a marriage where your spouse is overcome by shame and unable to fight for the family say it one more time how do you know when it's time or if it's time to walk away from a marriage where your spouse

is overcome by shame and unable to fight for the family. Did you know we're going to get you these questions tonight? No, these are great. It's a fantastic question. I always have a lot of follow-up questions on these. And so if I don't have follow-up questions, I'll just make up a story about it.

You can, okay, what are your follow-up questions? I would want to know what happened. Did somebody cheat on somebody, and now they can't move past it, and they're just bathing in shame, right? Yes. That's the story? Yes.

Okay. So if somebody, the ultimate question is when should I know if I should leave? What I would always want to bring that question back is to you ask yourself, not based on, based on, based on. And so less about he won't fight for us, she won't stand up for us or whatever. What I want in my life is A, B, and C and D. I want to show up as the person I want to be, and you're making this impossible for me to do this. that. I'm in an unwinnable situation. A question I often ask people is, do you feel like you can continue being the person you want to be in this marriage? And if they say no, that's usually

they're headed out, right? I don't want to be a person who lacks integrity. I don't want to be a person who finds myself angry all the time. I can only go do that work, right? I'm pretty reluctant to tell somebody, yeah, you know what, your spouse won't go to counseling, so it's bail time. Like that's tough for me to wrap my head around. I'd want to know a bunch more questions, but I don't know if that's helpful or not. Yeah. Let's see one more for him.

Okay, one more for Dr. Does that person who asked that question I want to stand up? It does say anonymous. So it was you. I'm kidding. Okay. Let me, one more thing.

If you know somebody who is the antithesis of shame is human connection. So if you know somebody and love somebody, who is just washed in shame, they did something, they were somebody at one time, and they can't seem to move past that. You entering into that space saying, I love you,

and here's the path back to me, being as clear as possible, and saying here's the path back to us, here's the path back, I wanna build a new marriage with you, and here's what must be true. Making sure you can look yourself in the mirror and say, I gave them a clear roadmap back, and they chose not to walk it. That to me is the most gracious thing.

can do in those moments. I like that. Thank you. Next one is to Dr. John Delaney. How do you balance your personal and business relationship? Wait, is that to us?

I don't know. From Brandon. Was that to us or to Dr. John? That's us. Oh. How do you balance our personal and business relationship? I don't believe in the words balance.

I think balances is a fantasy. I don't think it's real. I think it just goes in seasons. Yeah. Is that fair? I agree. I was going to, it says like, do we, do they ever clash? Yeah.

Every second of every day, of every day. And how is it resolved? We have implemented, we talk about this a lot on our like social channels, but we have implemented nightly check-ins and weekly check-ins, also monthly check-ins and then yearly check-ins. But every night and pretty much every week, for this question in particular, we're checking in to say,

how did today feel? Was it too much business coworkers and not enough husband and wife? Was it too much mom and dad and not enough husband and wife? Was it, were we not productive at all in business? And did that feel like the scales were balanced? And I don't think they're always 50-50.

I think... Never, are they? No. Yeah. But I don't also think 50-50 is the perfect scale. I think it depends specifically on the day. And by the way, we're not like going through a list of questions every night. It's more for me, it was like awkward for me to say, hey, today was out of whack.

And so what it what it has become is more of like an understanding that at this time we can, we can have these quote unquote awkward conversations and it's not awkward. So it's like been really helpful just to kind of categorize that and put it in a in a frame time. Okay, can I say this? Like, if you're, how many of you are married out here? Love that. If you're not married, there's a meeting up in the parking lot. Like, after this, just pick somebody and call it.

It'll work out great. Do you know what parking lot is adjacent? No. What is it? It is the rescue mission next door, which is great. There's a few of y'all that need rescuing also. You're good. what you just said is super powerful. If I tried to put something in a system for me and my wife,

it would be, it would not work, right? Because once it goes into a system, I'm out on it. But that really works for y'all. And so finding your, it's literally finding your path to, how do we have a, I can't believe you all figured that out. It was two years of me researching a book on marriage when I was like, there needs to be a thing that people do every day and every week and every month and like once a year.

So way to go, guys. You just ruin my book. So I hope you're happy. But like, whatever works for y'all to, it doesn't matter whatever other couple is doing. Like, do we put it in a system? Like in my house, feelings aren't the big driver because I have big, humongous feelings

and my wife is pretty steady. And so if I was like, today I felt out of whack, like it would have no bearing on reality, right? and so we're more like what did today look like versus hey I want to talk about my feelings and I want to put in a system and we're going to do that every night like whatever works for you all is awesome

so kudos to y'all okay we should let we should let doc go I know I was going to say thank you so much thanks for being here thank you all for supporting round applause awesome thank you appreciate you

also you're going to Zanies this fall. I'll be at Zanis this fall. Everybody, all of you, have to be there. Hey, and just so you know, they're like this not on stage. They're like two of the greatest people I know. And so, like, y'all are supporting, like, good human beings.

So thank you all for being my friend. Wish I could say the same, Doc. Wish I could say the same. That's, like, thanks, thanks. Thank you. He's the best. Thank you. Okay.

I did just get the nudge that we are keeping you guys late. So, meaning we've talked to too long. There were, I think, three people raising their hands over here. I thought we could kind of go rapid fire before we wrap this and let you all go home and just say thank you so much.

I really enjoyed that conversation, by the way. He's incredible. Yeah, that was great. I was saying he's my favorite person to interview because I feel like he's like the translator for us. It's nice for like low IQ people to have like a high IQ kind of guy. It's nice.

I say something to you, and he's like, Like, let me just tell him what you said. And vice versa. Yeah. Thank you guys so much. But yes, we're going to go kind of rapid fire. We'll try to keep it, like, brief to the people who had lasting questions. Yes.

I have totally understood. Like, that whole idea of hospitality towards my spouse was not really something I thought about. Like, oh, it took me way too long to have that thought of wanting to want to do the dishes. I speak about it in a way of like, all right, Sean, it's, you're taking it too far. This is, this is too much. And it's like a perfect. This is where we need Dr. John. Yeah, did we just let our only resource go?

Yes, I am grateful that Sean and I are able to have candid conversations where she'll be like, you're a slob. And, like, and I'm like, oh, dang, I thought I really tried to fold the towels really well. wanted to do that for you i didn't want to do it for me she's like well there it's an embarrassment how you did those i am i'm embarrassed for you and it's like uh so it's like that where it's there has to be some middle ground of oh hey i i see that you tried thank you and here's me generously helping you remember rapid fire the what do you remember rapid fire my bad yeah uh one thing that we went to in our most recent like counseling's like

session, they taught us this idea of instead of approaching the whole dishes thing, like, I don't want to. I can't want him to want to, just to, I'm really happy that this is something I can do for us tonight. And if you can try to be more selfless towards each other, like in your mental space, which is hard, you find yourself less resentful of why isn't he doing this? Why is he playing video games? And it seems to help.

Rapid fire. I know. Okay. All right. Next. All right. We have something really exciting that's about to start at our house. We're finally building our family pickleball court.

And honestly, we cannot wait to bring you guys along for the process. And the team helping make it happen is America Sports Construction, which is actually a division of Pave America. These guys are experts. They build large-scale athletic facilities, commercial projects, and incredible sports spaces across the entire country. So we knew we were in the best hands bringing this dream to life. What's been really cool so far is seeing just how much thought and expertise goes into every single step. They handle everything from design through construction, and you can tell they genuinely care about creating spaces that bring people together. Which is exactly what this is for us.

More than just a court, it's a place we hope our family, friends, and community can make memories in for years to come. If you're thinking about adding a sports court or upgrading your outdoor space, head to Americasportsconstruction.com. to get started. Check them out on Instagram as well at American Sports Construction or hit the link in our show notes. I think they're also going to do a driveway. I can't wait. These guys are pretty good with driveways, pickleball courts, whatever you need. Check them out. What I've, what has been uncovered is that the number one trait that people need to have to be a great leader is in business is a tolerance of ambiguity. And within that, I have been thinking a lot about how, you know, as we grow up, we have a lot of clarity in our lives. We have a coach. We have a teacher. We have a

mentor, different parents guiding us along. And then we get into our adulthood. And we no longer have someone guiding that and we're stuck in this ambiguity. And with the leaders they work with, they really struggle with this idea of ambiguity. And so I'm just curious with this idea of security-unlock spontaneity, of going from this spontaneity where there's a lot of ambiguity, and you're going all over the place, how did you guys start to kind of build the box that your work playing in and to create that security

and was one of you more than the other maybe trying to go out of those bounds more and was there any tension within that as you kind of built that box of security? Who goes out of bounds more? Always you. I love that. And I think about the idea of flexibility.

often. And I think if I had to put a phrase to, it would be like directional ambiguity where you used the phrase box. But I think if you just think of boundary list, no constraints, then that's like chaos. And that's not leadership either.

So ambiguity and the ability to deal with that because there's always going to be unknowns, no matter if you're talking sports, marriage, kids, whatever. But you have to, like, I think it's a directional, like, hey, this is what we're shooting for, and now there's all this ambiguity that's been introduced, but that doesn't change our general, like, aim for the stars and hit the moon, right? Kind of thing is how I'm thinking about.

What are your thoughts? Yeah, no, that's, I mean, that's great. I was, like, I'm wondering about kind of just setting even what that direction is, you know, of like starting to create those boundaries in your family or the directions so to speak and having to create that clarity so that you can have the security you need um does that make sense yeah we kind of spell all that out of how we found it and how we found what our boundaries are I feel like the world you could you could say yes to a million different opportunities on any given day and have a lot of fun and feel great. But does it actually feed your purpose, your soul, like what you love doing?

And so after doing all these different exercise, finding our values, sharing our goals, auditing our life, like doing all of these things, we kind of found these boundaries that if we live within them and find spots, continuity within them, it seems like we start noticing that those check-ins on a daily basis or the check-ins on a weekly basis or a monthly basis start to come back more and more positive. So it's almost like the overarching data says, well, we're kind of living within these boundaries towards our values and we seem to be happier and not arguing as much and more filled up. So it seems to be working if that makes sense. I think a good analogy is like in the work we do. like when we get to talk about a product,

we used to be like, let us make whatever video we want to about this thing and tell the story. And then it would always end up terrible and like not accomplishing any goal that the company had or not accomplishing a goal that we had. And so it's been like super helpful to understand, oh, the creative constraints of, hey, let's just talk about what are your goals.

And oh, it's just awareness great. Or no, you need, you need people to like go check out this. Special Olympics website or whatever it is. And it's like, okay, sweet. I know that's our one thing that we're trying to get out of this. And so now I know you, how you are thinking about this and we're thinking about it. And that's been so much more productive. I think, yeah, yeah,

creative constraints. Bear of bad news. We are way over time. Let's see one more. Let's see one more. One more. Okay. Last one. Yes. when you were married, you had systems and frameworks and tactics that you guys have made a huge difference or moved the needle in the right direction. First of all, round of applause. That's awesome.

Let's see. During our engagement, you're saying specifically? Or just early on in your marriage, like what lifted some main constraints or hurdles that you guys found that moved the needle forward the most? Let's see. I think we started really understanding schedules in a different way. I had zero schedule and Sean had a lot of schedule and understanding that. Even like as far as like holidays and things like that,

you really are kind of starting to hold each other's hands through all that. That's one thing that comes in mind. I think are you guys like doing the wedding planning thing too? We're on that right now. It's kind of, yeah, it's great. I feel like the stylistic settlement of, you know, there's so many little details that need to be ironed out. It's kind of fun to be a fly in the wall. Not a fly in the wall.

I was a fly in the wall. Like to start to understand how to approach those. And then we did premarital counseling too, which was massive. I would highly recommend that. And that was like a, that opened a whole conversation of like, oh, so yeah, what chores did you do growing up and what didn't. you do and like how what baggage are you walking into but what baggage are you walking into that's interesting I think we learned a lot of things later on that probably would have been very beneficial right after we got married uh we I feel like a misconception of a marriage is that it's the finish line

like you've crossed finish line you've done it when you should be viewing it as the start line to the rest of your life and when we started implementing this idea that we're going to do date we're going to put it on the schedule like the same day every single week. I think it has saved a lot of our hard phases in our marriage because in the phases of your marriage

where you start to be like, oh, I'm going to go focus on this more or life gets busier. If you always are pursuing each other like you did when you were dating, but in your marriage, I think it's more beneficial. I hope that was helpful.

Okay. I think that was it. Savannah, you wanted people to which side? Right or left? Left. Thank you. Okay. This has been wonderful. Thank you guys so much for coming out. Thank you for being a part of the live podcast. You will be hearing all of this

this week on our podcast. Thank you for being a part of the book in this whole journey. This is our first time doing this. And it has been crazy. Kind of like John said, Not sure we'll ever do it again. But it has been a lot of fun. And I hope you guys enjoy tonight.

But thank you. We have a round of applause. City Winery, everybody. Thank you all. Thank you.