Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 38 Glennon Doyle + Abby Wambach

Episode Date: October 7, 2020

Today in episode 38 of Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew, we’re SO excited to be chatting with powerhouse couple Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach. They’re activists, thought leaders, mothers, bestselling authors – the list goes on and on. Things we discuss: Nontraditional relationships Resistance Not being confined by the box society puts relationships in Relatability factor Not having to understand someone to love them Religion as a relationship with God Identity If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more. And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail]. Last but not least, learn more about Glennon, Abby, and all they’ve got going on at the links below. ––– Glennon’s website, Momastery ▶ https://momastery.com Abby’s website ▶ https://abbywambach.com “UNTAMED” – book ▶ https://untamedbook.com “WOLFPACK: Young Readers Edition” – book (just released!) ▶ https://www.amazon.com/Wolfpack-Young-Readers-Abby-Wambach/dp/1250766869 Together Rising – nonprofit ▶ https://togetherrising.org Follow @glennondoyle on IG ▶ https://www.instagram.com/glennondoyle/ Follow @abbywambach on IG ▶ https://www.instagram.com/abbywambach/ ––– We’re supported by the following companies we love! Make sure to check them out using our links below. Enfamil! Use coupon code ENSPIRE3 to receive $3 off an Enfamil® Enspire™ Infant Formula 20.5 oz. tub ▶ https://bit.ly/CoupleThingsxEnfamil Magic Spoon! Go to magicspoon.com/EASTFAM to grab a variety pack and try it today! Be sure to use the promo code EASTFAM at checkout to get free shipping. ▶ https://magicspoon.com/EASTFAM Best Fiends! Download Best Fiends FREE today on the Apple App Store or Google Play. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Welcome back to a couple things with Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples and the things they go through. Today I am truly, truly fan girling. When I received the message on Instagram when they replied. Yes. We'll tell you who they are in a second. I ran laps around the house. I couldn't breathe. I thought I was living in a daydream. When I tell you that Sean was giggling and giddy with excitement. Yes. I'm not lying. Uh, Today we sit down with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach, two legends in their own right and a power couple together. Abby Wambach, I mean, two-time Olympic gold medalist,

literally the goat in soccer. I mean, the greatest, literally known as like the best soccer player of all time. Two-time Olympic gold medalist. She's also a New York Times bestselling author, as is her counterpart. Her wife. Glennon Doyle, who has written books like Love Warrior and Untain. Yes.

We will link the information for that. And Glennon is making a massive name for herself in the untamed world, preaching this concept of being untamed to being true to yourself. She is in the reading circles of Oprah and Reese Witherspoon, Kristen Bell. I mean, everybody. She's amazing. That's right. So this was the conversation that I think we put the most thought into. We had the most fun with.

And it was also the most challenging in a lot of. ways. So here's a deal. Glendon's story is this. She was in traditional marriage, had several kids divorced, met Abby, and married Abby. And so she has caught a lot of slack from dissenters, but also has gained cult-like devotion from others. And here's our stance. I think whether you are blindly in love with somebody or disagree adamantly with somebody for whatever the reason, it's important to still be able to have a respectful conversation. Still be able to be thoughtful. Still be able to listen and glean things that you do like and you don't like.

And so I enjoy it today because I had so much good things to say. And I'll tell you from a father's perspective that I want Drew to be like them in so many different ways. Yes. It was the greatest conversation of all time. The greatest conversation of all time. I'm not putting them on myself. I'm putting on them. I love them.

I want to be their new best friends. I just, like you said, especially now being mom to Drew, these are two of the most powerful women in today's world. They are not afraid to be who they are. They stick up for everyone else. They have such a strong voice.

I truly, I love everything they stand for. Yeah. And they are activists. They profess to be activists. They're known as activists. And again, no matter if you agree with them on what they're activists about or disagree with them on what

interact us about still listen to the conversation be thoughtful about it and uh and take what you can from it so that's why we're excited to have this conversation with you we're excited to hear your feedback if you haven't please subscribe to show and rate it um love to hear your criticisms your praise whatever it is also today's a big day because yesterday abby came out with the children's version of her new york times bestselling book called wolf pack we'll link the information for that down below but let's go ahead and roll into this one with glennon and abbey Glennon and Abby, thank you so much for joining us. I just want to start off here by saying I feel wildly under accomplished compared to you three

amazing women. It's an honor to be sitting in all of your presences, to be honest. So thank you too for joining us, though. Thank you. What an honor for us to be here with you two. We're excited for this. So I don't know if you know. this, but we just had a daughter not too long ago, and I look at you three women, and you're exactly

what I want Drew to be like with ambition and bravery and all the amazing things you guys have done, and you haven't been scared to do it. It's been fun, though, coming from a pretty conservative Christian background, my parents, when Sean and I first got married, were like, kind of hesitant because our arrangement was a little non-traditional in the sense that, like, my whole life then and now is all about supporting Sean and like her ambitions which is not you know the status the the normal conservative Christian background I'm curious have have you guys ever uh anyone ever told you have like a non-traditional marriage no no no nobody's never mentioned that yeah yeah absolutely and I've had both I mean I was married to a man my first

marriage was a little bit more traditional I think yeah and quite you know conservative Christian also through much of your your first marriage yeah I grew up Catholic we both grew up Catholic and then I was a real very involved in a I guess an evangelical church for a very long time and was a Sunday school teacher I've been told us about a year ago when I didn't wasn't able to do it anymore but yeah I definitely have also been told that our arrangement is non-traditional yes yeah and you know it's funny because for the most of my career any partner that I have had has in a much ways kind of been that support system that you talk of.

And it's really cool now to be married to Glennon because we are both independently, you know, successful. We have our own businesses. But with this untamed book and the success of that, it's been really beautiful and an amazing experience. I'm sure you guys understand now being your parents how when you're so focused on yourself and your craft. Sean, I know you understand what this is. It's like it is one of the most selfish

endeavors. And then to be taken away outside of that, I retired to focus my energy on our family and Glennon's release of untamed. It's been beautiful to see it from this perspective. So I have kind of a unique ability and perspective that I've been in both positions. But yeah, traditional upbringing. I call myself kind of recovering Catholic, because you can imagine what a would feel like to be a little gay kid sitting in the pew next to your mom and your family and wondering what abomination means and wondering what all these big words mean

that essentially my being, my humanness meant that I was going to hell. So I've been fighting against that quite a bit. But yeah, I love the support system. I love being in support and service to somebody else. It's really, I think, why I've been put on here. And it's a beautiful, it's, I think, For us, it's, what I have found works for us is that there's not, I used to have this idea of,

okay, so in every relationship, there's the kite and there's the kite holder, right? So there's like the one who's just like out there doing the thing and flying high and whatever. And then there's the one who's just like holding them steady, right? And both are equally important and blah, blah, blah. But I actually don't think that that works in the long run, you know, because inevitably, the kite holder is going to get sick of being the kite holder, and the kite is going to need to rest. And so I love what we have, which is that it's always a back and forth.

Like the last year has definitely been, you've been the kite holder. And then the year before that was Abby's Wolfpack book release, and that was I was the kite holder then. And I'm sure a year from now, I don't know, I just think it's super important that both people have their time to be the support and that each has the time to be the supported yeah i'm trying to figure out was that a tease for abby's next book maybe was that you know alternating just years i guess so that i can stop being the damn kite well the young year's true that's true yes yes um something i absolutely love about the couples that we get to interview is and it's one of like our missions when we

started it is I got so tired of how people put relationships into a box. They say if you don't do this and if you don't follow these guidelines, then your marriage or your relationship is going to fail. And it's been cool to interview different couples who have gone through some very hard things and tragic things and they've had affairs or they've had, I mean, there's been all these different stories we've heard where people have said, you know what, I don't care what the world tells me to do now, I'm going to go do my own thing, and we're going to make it work. And I think it's just really cool to hear your guys' story. I told Andrew that, I don't know, like, how I worded it, but it was basically like,

you guys are my favorite, favorite couple in the entire world to follow on social media. I die over Glenn and you drinking Abby's smoothies and just all these chronicles. It makes my day. Um, but one of my favorite things that you guys do is you show your relationship to the world. And it seems so quote unquote normal, but yet you're doing your own thing and you're showing so many people in the world that the box that they've defined is completely wrong. And I just think it's a really powerful thing how you guys are kind of living out your marriage and your own way.

And yet it's perfectly right. Is there, is there a lot of resistance that you meet on a day to day basis? to in what way yes and but there's so many areas give me a category of resistance um okay well so I think in in the you guys are both I think in your Instagram bio is activists for a lot of different things is there a lot of resistance for the things that you are activists for yeah yeah all of it yeah yeah Yeah, I mean, I am a fierce feminist and LGBTQ, an anti-racism activist inside of Christianity, which... Nobody gives her problems with that.

It feels a comfortable place to be, you guys. Everybody agrees. Everyone agrees with me, feels good about me in general. Yeah, I think so. But also, you know, there's so. much understanding and beauty. And, you know, I think that when we are really truly who we are out loud, we're not going to fit in any category. I think that you can be sure that you're not being true to yourself when you do neatly fit inside of a category and when no one's

ever, you know, annoyed with you. When you're never rocking the boat. And that doesn't have to be in terms of activism. That can be in terms of family. I mean, we all know that, you know, some of the hardest boxes to break out of are the ones our family puts us in. Right. So, yeah, I mean. I think, just to add to that, I think that one of the most important things that we learned early on when Glenn and I first met, you know, we actually spoke to a lot of really amazing thinkers, people who were close to us. personally and also kind of famous in the world. And one of the things that one woman said to us,

she said, you just have to love each other because we were so worried about, you know, what people would say and she has children. I come from this, like, Christian Catholic background where I've got a whole bunch of shame wrapped up in that. And for us, you know, the reason why we're activists is not to change everybody's mind, though that would be great. We don't believe that we can change everybody's mind.

but what we try to do is educate people. And as it goes in any kind of non-traditional relationship, and what we're saying is a non-white, a non-straight relationship. Like, that's what non-traditional means, you know, anything on the mind. And I think because we are in a gay marriage, we want to just be out loud and show

all the things that happen that also happen in every other relationship relationship in the world because that for us feels like the great equalizer and that's like other than getting on a soapbox saying yes we are gay and we are the same like we're just show Glennon stealing my food and making my shakes leaving the the cabinet doors open and me scaring her like we're just the same as as anybody out there and And the only way you can sometimes show that is just to literally let some put somebody into your house. Well, so I do think, I think it's so important to kind of, to, A, have conversations,

but I think the best way to have a conversation is to find similarities. And Abby, when I look at your Instagram, it's like, it's like pretty much parallel to mine where like you're just showing your spouse and all the annoying fun. cute things that they do. And so I think that, I think that to your point that there's so much power in that, I interrupted you. Well, no, it's, I was going to say it's the relatability factor. I feel like, again, going back to this box that people try to paint, which never works, or it works for some people.

But like you said, Glenn, and they're probably not being true to who they are in some fashion or in some way. But the relatability factor, when people watch you, and they're like, oh, yeah, I do that. My spouse does that. my boyfriend my girlfriend my what does that they start relating to a relationship and a like a form of love that is truly undeniable yeah and i feel like that's where it's there's no argument and glinda you said in your book that um they don't have to understand me to love me i think and i think that that's an important thing we're like hey we all each of us has so many similarities we have we also have

plenty of differences, but we don't necessarily have to understand those differences to appreciate each other. I did feel the drinking the milkshake, Abby, felt that in my soul. I'll never understand it. And just to speak to relativity, because I think that that's a way for people to feel safe. And I know from coming from the family that I'm in, it's like, if you are like us in any way then like come on in and we can have a conversation wrapped around that one little thing yeah and i think that that's why glennon and i and i have such a reach because you know from from what it looks like i i appear to be more masculine she appears to be more feminine but there are certain things that i am so much more feminine than she is about

and vice versa and so there's this kind of confusion dynamic that's also relevant in side of pieces of the relativity that people can hold on to. And I think what that shows is that no matter who you are, if you identify as a man or woman or anywhere in between, it feels to me like human beings can relate in some way, in one way, and let us look for those relativity points rather than the divisive points. And even our family, the way our family runs is so different you know we are people who were taught that divorce is the worst thing that divorce is failure right that what you need to avoid is a broken family and what a broken family is is a divorced family and so I stayed in a marriage we both stated marriages for probably far too

long that in what we what I realized one day was like oh wait am I sure that that the the definition the world has given me of a broken family is right because actually I see a lot of my friends out there in marriages where they are slowly dying and their children are not being served and and and they seem really broken and I see other families but they're still married right yeah yeah they're still in this original structure and I see these other families who have shifted their structure but they're thriving and they're fully alive and they're held and there. And so what if the definition of a broken family is any family in which a member has to break herself into pieces to fit in, right? And a whole family is a family regardless of structure

that everybody is held and free and valued and seen and loved. And so our family is different. You know, we have Craig, who is our most important person. Our most important person is that my and we just went on a huge family vacation like it was don't get me started because we're in a freaking cat in the now home

there was there was like water rafting costumes and like flying through trees like it wasn't fair enough to walk and had to fly through trees

I don't know but I'm white water rafting and zip line Tiva. Ziplining. I was about to say it sounds like ziplining. This is how an artist would explain those experiences. Whatever you want to call. But we were with Craig and his girlfriend and her son and our kids.

And like, they're just, there are ways to do things. There are more beautiful visions of family than what we have in our minds. You know, and sometimes in order to create the beautiful order to create the beautiful family we were made for, we have to go outside of what our culture has told us is acceptable. Yeah. So it's been brought up a couple times. I'm curious, I think, Abby, you said you're recovering Catholic.

What is each of your relationship to religion or God, I think maybe more broadly now? Yeah. Mine's very complicated. I kind of touched on it a little bit before I was born and raised Catholic. And from a very young age, I realized that I was either going to have to choose God and my mom or myself. Your sexuality. Or, you know, myself and being who I was as a gay person. And so 17 years old, I decided, okay, this is something I can't deny who I am.

So I went, I turned towards myself, thank goodness. And so my, my relationship with God at that point, I became a hardcore, like, atheist. I was like, there is no such thing as God. God is, there is no God. That's basically what I, what I was trying to make true for myself in order for me to walk away from God. She was furious at the God she did not believe in existed. Yes. People were rebellious, right?

So, actually, it's one of the things that brought me to Glenn, is her faith. in her definition of God because can you tell the story about when we were at an event, one of your events? Yeah. So we were at an event. I speak at a lot of churches, a lot of brave churches, a lot of crazy churches. And we were getting ready to go out to speak and the minister, we were in the back. And you just, the minister must have been really wonderful because you just really opened up.

Well, she was, I asked, I said, are you open and affirmed? Right. You always ask that first. Yeah. So I would only be speaking in a church that was open. Well, right. I would ask. What do you mean by open and affirming, Abby? So you could probably say it better. Open affirming churches that actually recognize gay people, basically, right? Is there more specifics to that? I mean, I would say that that's not, that it's more complicated than that. So for an open and affirming church to me and in practice, is a is a church that fully affirmed. gay people so not just the thing that churches do where they say we welcome everyone so I always tell people that if you want to know where a church stands you do not look at the pews okay you look at the pulpit so if you want to know who a church accepts and celebrates you don't ask who they

invite you ask who they hire to lead okay because what you will find is many churches say we're open to everyone we welcome everyone um but if you are a woman you are only allowed in the nursery, right? If you will see no people of color on the pulpit, you will see no disabled people anywhere. You will see no gay people in leadership anywhere. So to me, the measure of a church is who they hire to lead. Right.

So to me, like in many churches, you don't see anyone in a pulpit who looks anything like somebody, Jesus would have actually been hanging out. Right? That's good. So if I don't see anybody in a church that looks like a ragamuffin, looks like somebody who's pushed to the sides, looks like somebody who's marginalized in our culture, then I know that what we have is not a church, we have a country club. Right. Right.

So for me, that is extremely important. The question I ask all the time before I'm asked to speak at a church is, can you please show me who you have on staff? That's good. Interesting. So go back to the story. Yeah. So we're in the back, and the minister says, well, Abby says, you know, I at a really young age, was made to choose between God and myself, my deepest self, and I chose myself. And the minister said, damn straight.

She said something like that. And I was like, huh, that's not exactly it. And the conversation we had after, and I think this is the best way that I can describe the difference to me between faith and religion. is that what I realized happened with Abby is that when she chose the self that God made her, when she chose her deepest being, right, when she refused to abandon herself to fit inside religion, she was not choosing herself instead of God and church, okay? She was choosing herself and God instead of church, okay? When she walked away from church in that moment, she was doing that,

to protect God in her, right? So if I had to define what faith is to me, it is an allegiance, an alliance, a integration, not with a man-made religion, but with the deepest self, which is God, right? So I would argue that this is what Jesus was saying over and over again when he was saying, I and the father are one, right?

The kingdom of heaven is not out there, it is in here, right? that there is a deepest self that is like this little piece of God that's been broken off that is inside each of each one of us. And what sometimes I believe is the danger of any fundamentalist religion is that in our, in our, in our, the seeker, the seeker goes to these places. The seeker wants to find God and in these places often is the place where they are most separated from God because what fundamentalists, any, in our,

just religion. Company, cult, any kind of group needs to do is separate a person from her deep as self, right, in order to gain allegiance to that group. So this is why, and in the beginning of all fundamentalist religions, not just Christianity, what is taught to us in the beginning is that we cannot trust ourselves, right? And that is the lesson. That is the heart is wicked. That is the story of Adam and Eve, which is, you know, do not follow your curiosity. Do not trust yourself. You will be, I mean, that's particularly misogynous because it's the woman who's the temptress and torn away.

But I think that what Abby was taught, which is so sad, and I work with so many families who have gay kids who come to this crisis point, right, where they have to decide whether they're going to choose their religion or they're going to choose their child, whether they're going to see God more in religion or they're going to see God more in the beingness

their child, right, is that there is a time where we actually believe that religion and God are the same thing. And they just aren't. And I think that that day in that minister's office, I mean, she literally said all those words to me within four or five minutes. And she's like, okay, I got to go on stage. And I was like sitting there like, holy cow. That, she didn't say cow. No, I didn't. I just feel like it was one of the most important conversations in my life because I had turned so far away from God that even though I thought I turned towards

myself, I also was turning away from myself when I turned away from this God that I thought was church, right? So that ever since then, I think that I've been more in line with divine, with God, with Allah, however you define that for yourself. I honor that in you because, I mean, Glennon's words, it was the first time she allowed me to see myself as godly in a way. And Jesus, you know, I'm obsessed with Jesus. Like, I worship the guy.

I am like full on, okay? And that's because, like, I just feel like it makes me crazy that we're never actually talking about Jesus in the Bible. We're never talking about the actual Jesus who, like, walked around, like, literally looking at his culture and asking two questions, okay, who is power forgetting and who is religion oppressing? It's that, right? Who is power forgetting? religion depressing. And then gathering all of those people together, eating with them, walking

with them, always directionally toward power. That's where the, the crew is going the whole time, right, towards the Roman Empire, right? So Christianity is this, you know, vertical and horizontal of gathering all the people who are marginalized, always, and always going towards the power structure that is causing that marginalization, right? So at, you know, during that time, when Jesus asks, who is power forgetting, who is religion oppressing? It was back then, it was the tax collectors, right? It was the prostitutes. It was the lepers, right?

Those are the people that power is pushing away that religion is oppressing. Now, when we use the Jesus story as a guide to the way we're supposed to be living now and we ask ourselves those two questions, then we're gathering who is marginalized, right? We are gathering gay kids. we are gathering the Muslim people in this country. We are gathering the black kids. We are gathering the black overly incarcerated people. We are gathering the immigrant families at the border.

If we are not gathering those marginalized people, then we are not living as Jesus did in any way, shape, or form, right? And if we're not challenging constantly the power structures that are causing that marginalization, then we're not living as Jesus did. So my vision of Jesus and the way the stories that he, was here to teach us are different than the stories we see about what Christianity is. Jesus and Christianity, to me, can be two very different things.

The interesting thing to me, I'm sitting here listening to you, and I think our theology is slightly different, and that's totally fine. I think more, I think I differ, I don't know how you feel, but in the sense that I'm not sure I view like God in us as much as like I'm a huge believer and I've been so frustrated at the church because I feel like there is like a Christian mold that like everyone speaks the same vocab and says like oh like how's your heart you know what I'm saying what's on your heart yeah yeah yeah yeah I know it all and so it's like like you know the Bible talks about the body of Christ and I am a huge believer like we each need to

figure out why God made us what we're good at like we each have talents that are god given right and like to have specific uses so i think almost like rather than i think god in us maybe it's like like god like displayed almost or like his work but on that it's it's it's i mean i'm just curious it's cool because i agree with a lot of the things you're talking about like the confidence and the sense of adventure and the like the transparency that leads to so much good stuff. I warned Andrew about this, by the way, before we started, he loves debating theology and philosophy.

No, it's fine. Like, we have a lot of... That's all I want to do. Like, let's just do it 12 hours. Let's go. I don't know, I know. But I warned him, I was like, I think you guys could really, like,

do this for a long time, so we have to be careful not to, like, get... But the point is not the differences. I just say that because there's a lot of the similar fruit you could say from our different theologies, which is, I think that one thing that Glennon taught me early on in our relationship is the beauty of language, right? Something that I say, a word that I use might not relate to you in any way. And one of Glennon's genius, a trait of Glennon's that makes her genius is that she can speak anybody's language, right? And you're out.

I know what you mean when you're saying God and it might be a little bit of a perspective shift. You might say my theology is a little bit different. I have a different, but like from the root of it all, I think what you're saying is such similar stuff. Like if you were to get down to this. This isn't the BS of Christianity, right? I'm like, God and me. And you're like, no, it's God revealed in me. Like, we could go to war over that, right?

But we're saying the same thing. And then we've had these conversations so many times. And again, we could go down a rabbit hole. I have so many other things that I want to ask you guys. But we've all, we've had this conversation so many times about just religion in general, how everybody interprets every, the same book so differently and makes their own rules and their own molds. And they say, you have to do this and you can't do that.

and they all contradict each other and they all say if you do this you're going to hell but the next religion says you can do it and you're fine and it makes it makes no sense to me because yes we we argue this not like we're always on the same page for throwing this in i'm sorry but he's like oh no i am curious i wonder if there's any tension at abby from your athletic background glen and i understand you're a new fan of sports and you've you know the sport The sports. The sports. So, but as athletes, we're constantly taught, like, self-imposed suffering lead, like, the importance

of that, right? And, like, denying maybe what we feel like those desires are. You know what I'm saying? Like, whether it's waking up at 4 a.m., as opposed to sleeping in or, like, the diet, all of it. Glenn, your book is, like, it's all about following your desires. And I wonder how you guys have meshed that. Well, okay, I would argue with you, friends, that it is about following desire.

But I think it's really important to talk about what kind of desires I'm talking about. It's about our deepest, truest desires. So, like, the way that I, when people often, you know, who pigeonhole me as like Eve. I, for one, believe Eve was framed, but that's fine. I, like, I am the Eve that's dragging people to, like, follow their desires. Like, that's one way of looking at it. But I also think that we have a way of looking at desire, which is looking at surface desires. So, for example, if a woman comes to me and says, we can't all just follow our desire.

Like, you know, I want to have a bottle of Malibu a night. like should i just follow that desire and i'm like okay that's not the kind of desire i'm talking about so so let's talk about what's inside that want okay what does the bottle of malibu represent for you because in a capitalist culture you can get back to jesus on that in a second in a capitalist culture what capitalism's job is is to figure out what the deepest desires are of human beings and then attach that to their products and then sell the products, right? So what people are selling to us is our own deepest desires.

We just don't know that. So what does the bottle of Malibu represent for you? What it represents is a break, right? What it represents is deep rest. What it represents is stop performing and check out. Like what it represents is get off the hamster wheel, close down your mind, like rest, deep, deep rest, okay? So when I talk about following desire, I'm not talking about let's all go get wasted.

and do all of the things that, like, whatever the hell are, you know, little. I'm talking about the desire beneath the desire, which is something that Jesus talks about all the time, right? Like, I'm talking about, like, the deepest, deepest desires of human beings, which are to be seen, to be loved, to deeply love, to serve, to be free, you know, all of these kinds of desires that actually we were meant to, in life and life to the fullest, to have met and to help other people meet. So when I just, I want to be careful about that when you say it's about following your

desires because on one Christian spin of that is like, oh, she's just out here like, freaking Armageddon is next with what she's telling people to do. And the other part when you actually read the book is that when I followed my deepest desires, what happened is this army of warriors was unleashed all over the earth that has become, one of the leading groups in reuniting families at the border and serving refugees in Syria. And like when people meet their deepest desires, they are freed in wild and amazing ways, which is all of what Judas was talking about. And I think just to go back to like the whole point of that question, the difference between

my athletic career and this drive. Oh, yeah, sports. We're talking about sports. And, like, the drive that I had and how do we connect, right? Like, one thing that I've learned in my retirement from Glenn, actually, is this, the difference between internal motivation and external motivation. So most of my athletic career, I was externally motivated, right? I was motivated by wanting to win gold medals, by financial gain, by awards, by coaches, you know,

praise. I mean, praise. I was motivated by praise. It's a very big personality trait of mine. And then when all that stuff went away, I had to have to, I had to like dig deep inside of myself to try to figure out what that was about because that's like so ego driven, right? So for me, what I've learned is that this internal motivation, the stuff that I've been working on over the past four or five years since I retired, not only is it much more fruitful and fulfilling, but it's actually more in line with God because, and I'm not saying this because I think God is in me or God is outside. I just think that when I'm doing something true to who I am, it will be in line with the world. It has to be in line with the world and service. And there is

this crossover between spirituality and athletics or spirituality and statistics and spirituality because if we can find our truest and deepest and most true and beautiful life that we can possibly live and we live it out, I do think that the, you know, the kingdom of earth, the kingdom of heaven does come down to earth on some level. Good. Something I think you both talk about a lot separately and in the same conversations is identity. Glenn and I think you talk about it a lot in your book.

Abby, you've talked about it with sports and just in your book as well. I know from my personal experience with elite athletics, my identity was wrapped up in whatever the world wanted to tell me I was. I was just the gymnast. I was just the medal. Nothing else. They told me what I could wear, how I could talk, how I could act, who I should hang out with, all of it. Glennon, you've talked a lot about the identity that you got caught up in with your husband and the church and even going as far as like, eating disorders and having an image tied to it.

I'm curious how your relationship has helped that working through both identities and like world stigmas because I know one of the greatest things to ever happen to me was finding Andrew because I was wrapped up in an identity that I didn't know how to get out of. And he saw something different when the doors were closed and I could kind of let that guard down. and he helped me kind of heal through that and become, you know, who I was. And I'm curious if you guys have gone through that together or healed outside of it and, I don't know, like flourished each other's. It's a quick, good question.

I love that. Look at you, Andrew. Good job. Stop. That feels so familiar to me. I think that, you know, I can only. speak for myself but in terms of identity you know I had a whole life before I met Glennon did pretty good you did okay I was a pretty I was a pretty I won some gold

medals I liked a party way too much and I actually met Glennon one month into my sobriety Glennon at that point had been 14 or 15 years sober herself And, you know, it was more like when we met, it was more like a recognizing, like a remembering of something that I had lost in myself long ago. And I didn't have this language until she wrote untamed, but and watching her actually go through getting untamed or untaming herself. You know, you could imagine what our relationship could look like behind closed doors in terms of being two women who are very introspective, very philosophical, spiritual, and seekers and mystics. And sober, so we have nothing else to do. So we just talk all the time about any feeling that comes up. Like, it's the stereotypical, like, what you imagine, that is us.

It is what you can bet is happening in our house. We had a half an hour conversation the other night about whether I got sad enough when she was sad. Like, that's what the entire conversation. That's a really interesting conversation. This is the conversations I wish she would have with me. Yep, that's what. I'm not sure, Sean.

I'm not sure. You think you want it until you find yourself 40 minutes into defending yourself for whether or not you're sad enough when the person's sad. Like, it's just alone. Yeah. I mean, I think I just relate to what you said deeply, Sean, which is just like this person, like sometimes it just feels as if all of life is a stage. And then there's this person that you can just be backstage with.

Oh, true. You know, that is finally that person that you, that sees the act. And I think the act, which is identity, is what we do because we think it is what will make people love us. And sometimes it does. You know, or usually it's probably not love, it's admiration, which is a different thing. But then when you find the person who loves you when you stop the act, that's when you found your person. Well, similar to, again, your past, and I mean, a lot of people's past, I feel like a lot of people make the mistake of they find someone who likes the act or loves it.

They marry that person. And then they get tired of it. They get tired of performing. And when their performance, you know, goes away, they're left with like, oh, I don't know who you are. And this isn't going to work. Instead of just finding someone from the beginning that appreciates who you are, like you said, backstage. Yeah, I think that just to add to that too, one of the things that we always challenge each other on is this external idea of identity. What has the world been trying to tell me

who to be and how to be and what to say and why to say it? Not just for me as a woman, but also So for me, as a former pro athlete, for me now as a parent, as a quote-unquote step-parent, we call me a bonus parent. Like there are so many roles that we step into as humans. Lennon also calls them costumes that we put on that aren't really what we want in terms of the way that it's been portrayed to us, right? So we're always constantly evaluating whether or not the identity or the cost of or the thing that we've stepped into is what we want it to be based on what we want, right?

So if Glennon wants to wear five-inch heels, because that makes her feel good about her, then I'm all for it. But like, is that really true that it's what she wants to, like, limp around all night? That's the 5-Eleven woman who has never been vertically challenged a day in her life? Right. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, let it come from you and the identity that you want to have as a person. So, you know, and it's so cool.

You guys will get this when Drew gets a little bit older. But, like, as your kid starts to develop their own identity, like, we've got a kid who sometimes she wants to put nails on and do makeup and also go out and, like, kick butt on the soccer field. And wear a suit one day. And wear a suit one day. And, like, the next day, she's dressed up in, like, total glam. It's like, I mean, it's mind-blown. but for us we have to always constantly challenge ourselves and our kids like what is identity

what identity do you want what what fits and what doesn't and then you have to figure out what parts you're resisting with your kids like so you guys our daughter for instance jump like she wears suits for a week and Abby's like oh my god this is so awesome she's expressing herself She is a free spirit. She is expressing herself. And then two weeks later, she comes out of the bathroom with eyeliner on and nails. And Abby's like, and Abby's like, we need to talk, we need to talk, Lemon, about what Kim is doing. And I'm like, wait a minute.

She's one step away from golf. I'm like, why is suits expressing herself, but nails is like she's about to become a felon? Like, I feel like maybe we are bringing our own idea of what freedom is to the child. And that's where partnership is really good at being the mirror. Right. Right. Well, that's my biggest fear with her daughter is the world already is like, oh, if you have a girl, she's going to be a gymnast. If you have a boy, he's going to be a football player.

And the world's already painting their identity for them, which is makes me furious. how do you teach a kid from day one to be their own human being? This is so good. I love it. This is it. Here's the game plan. Just all we have to do is get them to be themselves.

Right? Just get them to be themselves. And just have their whole life be a conversation and have parenting them be like the treasure hunt and not like the expectation list. Right? So when I remember, a couple years ago, oh, I put this in untamed. So Tish came home and she was like, mom,

Chase wants me to be in all of these nerdy high school clubs. And I don't want to be in these clubs. And I said, well, Tish then just don't be in the clubs. Like, what's the problem? And she said, well, I don't want to disappoint him. And I said, okay, child, listen. Your job throughout your entire life is to disappoint as many people as it takes. so that you never disappoint yourself, right? And she said, even you? And I said, especially me, right? Because no matter, I mean, listen, as you do,

we know some of the biggest badass, activist, athletes, actors in the whole world. And they can be doing the most amazing things. And at the end of the day, they are still trying to impress their parents. Right? their parents can have been dead for 20 years and they are still living every day to earn the fake approval of parents right that's like the biggest conditioning we we have to raise kids who we have trained not to not disappoint us but to not abandon themselves right because every little being that comes into this world has his or her or their own path right own own

relationship with the God that made them. Yeah. Right. And I think what happens is that parents step in and become these fake gods, right? That the child is looking at us for who to become and what to say and how to act and that becomes their cage as opposed to a direct, the direct, there is no middlemen between your child and their maker, right? And so however you would teach them to look towards that maker instead of us is what we

have to do you would call it something else i would call it like uncovering the deepest part of you which i believe is god right so the idea is to step out of the space of conditioning and expectation right so that they're living their whole lives is this going to please mom yeah i mean we listen drew will take her cues she's a girl right i just want to be clear yes our goddaughter her name is drew also so i just you never know sorry we already had that like a ton though which is hysterical is everyone's oh drew it's a boy i was like no she's girl no it's a girl we get it so good i love you um you drew is going to learn from y'all in the way that you respond to her if she ever gets into gymnastics or if she ever gets into football if it's available for for um drew when she gets older

but like at the end of the day i mean tish like the other day she said like under her breath out loud, I don't know if I want to play college soccer. And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, I don't want to disappoint you. And I was like, Titch, I don't care what you do. It matters not to me. The last time we spoke about this, which was like a year ago, you wanted to play college soccer. So I'm going to help you do that.

If that's what you want, if that's what you say you want, I'll help you. But like, I'm not going to push you. This is all on you. You have to be the one that motivates yourself. There's going to be no like, there's no disappointment. What's the thing that you and Liz Gilbert say to each other? Oh, I'm not subject to disappointment. Yeah, like they get to live their own life and they're going to have some ups and downs.

We're going to be stability people for them. Like, if you meet us, we're here, but you have to go out and figure it out on your own. And that comes at a certain age, too. How old is Drew? Nine months old. Oh, shoot. Okay, she's not ready yet to totally do this on her road. I'm sorry, you too.

You're going to have to stay in there a little longer. But you get to this point, you do get to this point where you switch your role as a parent. It's like if you're climbing a mountain together for a very long time, you're the guide. Right? You're like they're following you. You're the guide. You're telling them every little thing. And then suddenly you're like the Sherpa.

You're like, just give me your stuff. Yeah. I'm following you, right? Like, I'm here. I'm holding your stuff. And I'm like, it's not easy to make that transition for some people, though. No, it's not when you're a control freak. And you know that's for everyone.

He likes to do the guy. I am every day more and more amazed at how humbling being a parent is. I mean, Glenn, you said in your book, like, you, your goal is not to save them. Your goal is to watch them save yourself. And, like, that means so much, even in our baby phase where it's like, man, we want to be all, like, we want to be hands on, even though she's kind of learned how to walk and, like, she's bump. She has two little bruises on her face right now and is brutal, but it's like, like, you just have to remind yourself, like it has to be like this. I feel like she has to have some bumps and bruises along the way or else. She'll probably have the exact same bruise for a while.

They usually fall in the same exact spot for whatever. No, Andrew, and then they get bigger. And, like, I just think if you just keep that visual of your whole life, of Drew with the little bruises on her head, and that that is proof not that you're doing it wrong, but that you're doing it right, that you're giving her enough freedom. It's so hard.

Oh, my God. Wait till she's a teenager. And the bruises are on her little heart. I can't, I, I, I just want to wrap her and bellow wrap. And you suddenly realize that your little Jesus loving heart actually wants to commit homicide everyone who has ever hurt her. Like it's just, oh, it's a journey. Well, I know our time is coming to a close. I'm, I'm sitting here trying to think about who's better at what.

Is it Abby better at soccer or is it Glennon better at words and stuff? stories it's like this is this has been really really fun you guys both have so so much incredible wisdom for everyone to learn and i'm we are just honored to be talking to you guys and please keep doing what you're doing because i want drew to grow up to like just follow you guys and be a fraction of what you guys are well i think it's so cool that you guys are doing this a couple things podcast is awesome i mean shan I have been such a fan of yours. I'm so happy for y'all that Drew is in your life.

I mean, maybe not during COVID. Like, I think that maybe it's kind of fun. It's probably crazy making, but I know that you've probably made some really awesome memories. And it's just the beginning. Drew is going to be so great. We are here for you whenever she gets older. If you guys don't want to put her in gymnastics or American football,

the other football is also possible to talk. I'm rooting for soccer. Or poetry. Yes, poetry would be amazing. Side note, Glennon, that is how I won Sean's heart was poetry. He wrote me poetry.

Yeah. Yeah. So anyway. I know. Hey. And I want to tell you that why they were thinking about your social media, which is I think it's just the way, how much you love each other is clear.

And when you said, you know, your social media is like the cute, annoying things that your partner does. The whole thing about that is when we see that, we think, oh, he took that. video and he thinks she's as precious as she is like there's you can see how much you you can see how you see each other yeah which is a really beautiful thing so thank you for being you and um andrew call me anytime you want to argue about jesus hey well i i love the conversation we're

grateful for your for your time congratulations on both or congratulations are in order for both your books please everybody go get them yeah check out untamed and worth wolf pack glen and abbey we'll talk later