Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 44 Jonathan + Monica Pokluda

Episode Date: November 25, 2020

Today in episode 44 of Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew, we chat with Jonathan and Monica Pokluda.  Jonathan, a pastor, and Monica, his partner in ministry, chat with us about their conflict series… we both felt impacted by this series and we’d recommend it to all of you.  We also spoke about: dating in a healthy way expectations of a pastor family verbal escalation the greatest mistake a couple can make in conflict tools for couples If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more. And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail]. Last but not least, learn more about Jonathan and Monica Pokluda, and all they do at the links below. ––– Follow @jpokluda on IG ▶https://www.instagram.com/jpokluda/  ‘Becoming Something’ Podcast ▶ https://jonathanpokluda.com/resources Jonathan’s website! ▶ https://jonathanpokluda.com/about Listen to the conflict series here ▶ https://www.harriscreek.org/sermons/?sapurl=LytmYzAwL2xiL21zLys2YmdwNWpiP2JyYW5kaW5nPXRydWUmZW1iZWQ9dHJ1ZQ==  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Welcome back to a couple things with Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples and the things they go through. Today we sit down with an awesome couple who has so much wisdom given their entire journey through their relationship. And my favorite topic, we talk about conflict a lot. Yes. So I was introduced to the Pekludas through talking with one of my friends about their favorite pastors. I had never heard of Harris Creek Church or Jonathan Pekluta or JP as he's called. But when I first, first checked out his most recent sermons. They were doing a series on conflict. And I listened to the whole thing multiple times because I thought it was so valuable. And so I reached out to JP and asked

if he and Monica would be willing to come on our show and talk about conflict and how it relates to romantic relationships or marriage. And so I thought that this was a super, super valuable conversation. I'm honored to meet them. I'm so glad they took the time to talk to us. And if you want to listen to JP's full series on conflict. We will link that information in the show notes down below. And if you want to find out more about Jonathan or his wife, Monica, will include their information down there as well. If you haven't subscribed this show or given it a rating, please do so on whatever platform you're listening to. And without further ado, let's go ahead and jump at this one with Jonathan and Monica Pekluta.

for taking the time to join us. I know this has been an eventful couple weeks for you both, Jonathan, you recovering from COVID and you both missing the anniversary trip. It's an honor to meet you. My goal with this podcast is to really talk as little as I can and let you share your abundant wisdom on conflict resolution mainly because I think in marriage and relationships in general, that's a huge missing piece that people don't put enough time or effort into thinking about. So that being said, I would love to hear first you talk about how you both met. I know you've been married 16 years, give or take. Well, thank you guys for having a song. So just funny story at the gate is, you know, I kind of am on Instagram a lot. She's on

social media much less. But she came, I guess, probably six months ago. I was like, look at this couple. Like I've followed this couple. Oh, it's so cute. John Johnson and Pete and so I was like, oh, that's great. And so every now that she'd run over and show me something. Oh, I made a girl. And then you messaged me and I was like, oh, she's going to flip. This is going to be fun. Yay.

Thank you guys for having us on. You're really fun. I love what you're doing. You're bringing hope and joy to people and just being helpful. So that's a really fun thing, a great attribute. I love the way that you share your life with people. So thanks for having us on. Thank you.

And thank you for what you guys do. I think it's really, really important what you guys talk about. Yeah, well, it's a gift to us. And so we met, she was my best friend's sister. And so we were both pagans in the world. And so I'm a pastor now. I work for a church, but I have this really weird, unconventional turn into that. And so I was at a party with my closest friend in college.

And I said, I was kind of giving him a hard time. I was like, oh, this is fun. The mowers are here. He sounds like, oh my gosh, are we under alien attack here? Okay. Okay, so tell me we can, okay, they walked back. So, okay, we're back in it. So her brother was my closest friend, and I was like, given him our time,

I was like, hey, you should invite your sister over, just like being a dumb guy's, you know. And so he did. I have no idea why. And when she came in, I was just like, oh, my. goodness that's your sister and and so from that moment on i had one mission in life was to try to get monica rubin to pay me any attention so um i was i'm six seven kind of weird tall and and she's five three and so that was what we can we can relate on that i feel like we're we're about the same height difference i'm four eleven and he's six three six two six two yeah that's i mean

their height difference is way more than ours so yeah that was a hanging up early on but in the he knew me because honestly like I was I was not a good guy you know I I mean I found so much identity and girls and and he and I had gotten in all kinds of trouble together and so when I was like hey I like her sister he was just like no way man that's that's not I mean that's not what he said he used to a few a few uh expletives but um and so I just I just wouldn't just kept going and well and neither one of us like you said were believers at the time and we were both in other relationships but um we my brother's friend group and my friend group would get together and hang out all the time so we would be around each other we would kind of be

flirtatious but um and then kind of a crazy turn of events he ended up my brother and I both moved out right after high school and then we moved back home like half way through college because we, so Grip in Waco, went to Baylor, and he ended up moving in with my family for a few months. This guy did? So my lease was up in my duplex and my best friend was like, hey, you can come stay with us. And so I did.

And I mean, that's where it went from like this worldly like crush to, okay, I'm seeing her interact with her family. Like, this is a good girl. like I really want to you know pursue her and and then what was happening in my world from a spiritual standpoint is I was at a club 19 years ago and someone invited me to a church and I sat in the back row hung over smelled like smoke from the night before and and began to wrestle with all right what do I really believe about God and because I always said I was a Christian but like what do I really believe about God because I've always just done what I wanted to do and so that

kind of brought us to have this conversation like hey what do you believe about god and she was like well i believe in jesus i believe he died for my sins i believe he raised from the dead and i was like that's what i believe let's start there because up until then we had just fought about it it was just like these manic eyes manic lows you know we're going to be this we're going to be this no we're not and at that point it was just like we had this foundation let's build on there and really that's kind of where everything began to change and and we started dating in a healthy way which i had never done in my life. And really four months later, four to six months later, I had proposed because it was just like, man, we got to get the show on the road. Let's get me. I love that. Monica, I'd love for you

to talk. Jonathan's been, I think, relatively open with some, with the evolution of his life and how he's, you know, his come to faith was really a walk away from a lot of things like alcohol and I think you had some big time job. What was that like to be his partner through some of that or at least through the transition? Yeah, I think, I mean, like he said, we both became believers around the same time. So we kind of lived like the party life together. And then he graduated college two years before I did.

And then he moved to Dallas. And so we would go back and forth and did long distance relationship. and it's when he had gone to a church in Dallas, you know, just surrendered his life to the gospel. And I would go with him and heard the gospel for the very first time there. And so just wrecked my life. And then that's when we both started just really running hard after the Lord and pursuing him. So it was just a transition together. So it's like I maybe not quite to the extent of him, but was kind of.

kind of, you know, the same in the world, worldly life, and then just had a radical transformation. And so I think all throughout our relationship with that, God's kindness in realizing the forgiveness that I had received. And so just being able to extend that to him, whether it was with porn or through job transition and all that. I think in that we were, you know, I think there was some naivity, which was really good, but then also just faith of like,

okay, I trust that the Lord is going to do what he says he's going to do and he's faithful no matter what. She married a sales guy. I mean, I was in, I worked for a corporate 12 company at the penthouse condo in uptown, Dallas, drove the Jaguar. and wanted to be a millionaire before I was 30

and then one day into this journey I'm like hey I think I'm supposed to be a pastor and she was pregnant and so we were going dual income no kids to single pastor income child them away and you know to her tremendous credit

and faith she was just like yeah I mean guys are going to sort that out I mean he's going to work out and he did that's the message I would have for people just as you're hoping him like he's always sorted out the details and taken care of us. I kind of want to go back. You said something, Jonathan.

You said it was the first time you had dated in a healthy way. I think there's something really powerful behind that that I think a lot of our listeners should hear. How would you define that? And what's the difference between dating in a healthy way versus not? Yeah. I just think today we are after, the drama like we're addicted to drama like we we love reality TV we love the

bachelor the bachelorette like we're watching this the manic eyes the manic blows it's entertaining and I heard somebody say once you know you want a boring marriage and I don't want a boring anything the way that required me I'm I'm I don't want boring but what they meant by that is just that you don't want a marriage that would make a good reality show in that you're throwing stuff against the wall and you're calling each other names and it's it's the man it causing love like that resonated with me right and and so when i think because we had that yeah we totally had that and knew that life was not found we would hold each other to you know to the relationship hey you do that it's over you know and all we knew

how to do well was was fight and make love really and and that's the other thing is just like all of the physical stuff i mean that's what a relationship was to me it was it was a search for pleasure and a search for entertainment and a search for fulfillment. And so we were in our premarital counseling and God has done a work in our life at this point. And the pastor says, hey, you guys need to stop pursuing each other and start pursuing Christ together. And I'm just like, roll my eyes. I'm like, oh, that's sweet, buddy. Kind of pat him on it.

I'm like, thank you, man. Did you learn that in seminary? Like, that's really what my heart is saying. But it was kind of a prophetic idea because as you roll the tape forward, that's what we did is we stopped pursuing each other and missing each other and trying to take from each other. And we just said, hey, let's walk down this path together. We continue to grow closer and closer and closer and closer. And so I'm thankful for that word. I repeat that often. And so I think dating in a healthy way, it was hard, right? Because we stripped out the physical stuff. Like we had been physical. We had

been intimate. And then we got to this place where we start reading the scriptures and we're like, okay, I don't think this is God's best for us. We pull that stuff out, pull the parking break on that. And then I'm like, okay, this is really challenging. But it allowed us to go deeper and actually build a relationship that wasn't based on selfishness. Because that's what I think so many people do is they like someone because of how they make me feel. Like I do a lot of, we do weddings and people will say, I'll say, hey, why do you like them? And they'll say, well, I like them for the way they make me feel.

And I'm like, well, what happens when they don't make you feel that way anymore? You know, what are you going to do then? And so I think it's paramount that we learn selfless love. Like we learn how to love each other selflessly so that when the attraction fades or health fades or life throws something really challenging at us, like a layoff or a child with some disabilities or all of these things that we have no idea what they are. like how are we going to continue to partner in life then? With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex.

Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Turns and conditions apply. Learn more at MX.ca. slash Y Annex. I have a question. I'm really curious, your opinion. We've had conversations before with other couples. they have talked about this confusing transitional time for or they we've had we've had conversations

with people who are still in it and we've had conversations with people who have tried to find their way out of it but this concept that people look for love in the physical way they can only feel loved they can only feel worthy through intimate relationships and physical relationships and they don't know how to feel love outside of it is that how like how does someone get out of that yeah you know i do this thing on friday it's called uh friday q and a and i get like a dozen questions on soul ties and that's a really popular term right now and um i i think we move to such a selfish place in love that all we know when we think about love we just continue to think through the pleasure and what it does for me and that's the worst

kind of love in fact it's a counterfeit love i don't even think it's love if you if you just even if you think about the act of sex like god's the inventor of sex i mean he's it was his genius idea he made the parts he made him work the way they do he made him fit the way they do he put the nerve endings where where he did he made it feel the way that it does and then any and he made it bring forth life in the way that it does is genius absolutely genius. And so I think he created sex for two reasons. One, to bond a husband and wife. And two, to bring forth life. And if you think about the way that we think about intimacy or sex now is we try to protect ourselves from the procreation and we try to protect ourselves

from the bonding and just so that we're just left with the pleasure. I don't think we fully realize that the pleasure serves a purpose. The purpose is the bonding and the purpose is the procreating and when you just strip away the pleasure for itself you're left with like the the sugary snack that rots your teeth right like we all have to i'm mixing my metaphors here but we all have to eat healthy so that we can be healthy and if all we ate was was candy bars you know we would be we'd be killing ourselves and i think the sexualization of our culture in ways we can't fully understand right now or don't comprehend it's killing us it's living literally killing us and it's leaving us in a place where we don't know how to love each other.

And to pull that to us, that's what I would say is true about our marriage year one. Well, year one was really like a honeymoon and a blur and just like we just had fun and went on lots of dates. Year two, the wheels fell off because I had no idea how to love her. Like every relationship I had been in, I date somebody until I didn't like them anymore and then we'd break up and then I date someone until I didn't like them anymore and then we'd break up. Or vice versa. So I date them until they didn't like me anymore.

And then we break up. And so this has not trained me for marriage. This trained me for divorce. I had gone to a master class for divorce, right? I've trained for divorce my whole life. And now I'm stuck in this covenant. And I'm looking at her and I'm like, you know, I don't know that I like her anymore. I don't know that she likes me anymore.

What do we do? It feels like we're stuck. And that's where we had to renew our mind around something greater, something selfless, and put to death all of those, you know, selfish ambition for lack of utter term. This is gold. I know. I could ask you guys questions for a week straight. So many questions.

Part of a healthy relationship, and I imagine you guys have had your fair share of this over 16 years of marriage. We've been married for four and I feel like had plenty of conflict. this series you did with at your church Harris Creek about conflict tell us about how that applies to your marriage and it seems like the first step is reshaping conflict from like this really negative instance to opportunity can we start there yes that's absolutely right I mean you said you said a great conflict is an opportunity and so we can't see conflict as bad and we don't see it as something to avoid because then we'll be peace fakers. If we always see it as something we have to conquer, then we'll be peace breakers. And what the scriptures call us to be is peace

makers. And it's a skill just like anything else, like like tumbling or like football or like art or like anything. It's a skill. Your hairstyles. Yeah, yeah, right. It's a skill that you learn. in that you practice and that you get better at, right? And so step one is just moving toward it. There's always, you know, this scene in the movie, maybe you've seen Hurt Locker or some movie where there's a bomb and somebody yells bomb and everybody runs. They run out of the grocery store. They run out of the building. They run from wherever they think the bomb is. And then sometimes, you know, the symphony picks up and the camera slows down and you turn to this guy and he's He's in the, like walking in this cloud of dust and he's suited up head to toe and this gear.

He looks like a SWAT guy. This isn't evident. He's walking toward the bomb. It's because he's been trained to deal with that explosive device. And that's my hope is we can actually learn to deal with conflict in a way that when we see it, we can identify it. And we can be better because of it. And no, it's the number one, it's one of, it's one and two, number one determiners of whether a marriage will make it or not is one is can they communicate and two, can they resolve conflict?

If somebody can resolve conflict, you're going to be okay. But a lot of marriage counseling that we do is with people who've never learned to deal with conflict. And so a lot of times the husband or wife came from a family that avoided conflict at all cost. Like, we just didn't deal with it. We pretended like everything was okay. We were peace fakers. And another one came from a family where they would escalate. When there was conflict, people were yelling, people were throwing things, doors were slamming. And they both bring that dysfunction into the marriage, and they have no idea how to deal with conflict. And so I think, you know, slowing down and learning to deal with conflict is paramount to having a healthy marriage.

Monica, I'm curious with you guys, since your relationship started basically polar opposite from where you guys are now, how has that affected, I feel like this is many part question, but how does that affect your guys' conflict now? How do you keep from not going back to what you were used to when you first started dating? And then how does, we'll just start there. I'm we'll start there and i would say only by god's kindness and grace and seeking um his way versus our way because i think in our flesh and in our selfish desires i am so prone to want to withdraw and not not have the conflict avoid it um he's prone to escalate and um we have there's an acronym called weenie have y'all heard of that weeney what is that never heard of it this weenie but it's not spelled correctly yeah W E N I see all escalation negative

interpretation invalidation that's it W E N I that's what it is W E N I and so we say we need withdrawal escalation negative interpretation and invalidation everyone is prone to at least one of those and so what she was saying is is she's more inclined to withdraw and I'm more inclined to escalate and so what will happen is I'll smother her like hey where are you going come back here we got to talk about this come back here hey before the sun sets on our anger we got to talk about this and she's like man I just need some space and I think early oh yeah Monica we've our roles are reverse there. So to your question, so early on, it's like we didn't, when you can't identify that, it just feels like you're, you're constantly, it feels like all you're doing is trying

to resolve conflict when you don't know how. I think the big difference now is, is we can move toward a path of forgiveness. Like we got in the argument for this week or last week. You know, and just that you did a great job, a much better job than I did, of just coming back and saying, you know, to move toward the practical tips is like owning 100% your whatever person and starting there. Because in conflict, we always, we look across the field and all we can see is what the other person is responsible for and the hurt that they've caused and what they've done wrong. but if you're a part of the conflict you have a part in the conflict and so if i can sit down and say okay what part of this can i own and monica's much better at that than i am and so she just came back and said she was just like hey will you will you please forgive me and i love that question it starts with a will and it ends with a question mark it's not a forgive me it's not a command

it's not i'm sorry it's it's it's a really humbling position to be in will you please forgive me for And she said, you know, just when, when we were walking, I reacted to something you said in a way that was, was not honoring to you. And what that does is it totally disarms me, because then I'm like, well, you did do that, but it was my fault. Will you please forgive me for? And I begin to think through, okay, this is my part. And now what we've done is we've turned inwards and we're starting to deal with our part in the conflict rather than focusing on winning or focusing on the other person's part in the conflict. I think too you had asked about the difference in before being believers and then after and honestly one of the biggest turning points for us and for me specifically in that was once we've become

believers realizing that okay he has the holy spirit living inside of him and that is what is changing him like I am not I'm never going to change um him it is God's work in him that will and so just trusting the Holy Spirit, even when I was so, you know, upset or frustrated or whatever it was with him, knowing that, man, the Lord is at work in him through his spirit and trusting the spirit versus myself or, you know, even him. This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626 horsepower twin-turbo V8 engine, the Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar Rally, the ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca.

The concept of owning the 100% of whatever percent you're responsible for, there's, I feel like a lot that goes into that, a lot of practice that you need to develop the humility and the self-awareness and the willingness, I guess, to like have that conversation and to start bridging the gap. But Monica, I would love to, If you could talk about, we just had a birthday party for a one year old, have one kid. I know you guys have three. And one thing that I feel like we have struggled with in our marriage is the energy and time that you have to resolve the conflict, especially for some of these, like, there's some

issues that don't get resolved in five, ten minutes. Like sometimes it takes two hours of, gosh, like tears. and how do you resolve conflict when there is such a shortage of these resources? A shortage of resources or time? Well, time and energy. Yes. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think one, we believe that it's healthy to have conflict in front of your kids

and show them what that looks like to have healthy conflict. And so we for sure have had moments where, you know, the kids, the kids are there and they're getting to learn from that and see that. And then there have been other times where, you know, we will slip away for a moment. And with young kids, it's hard. It's like, okay, you know, coming back to a time of nap time. You know, hey, let's revisit this at nap time or once the kids go down the bed. And so I think it's important you can totally stop conflict and revisit it at a different time. But just it's always been super helpful for us to make sure that we know when that time is that we're going to revisit.

Because a lot of times it will just get up to under the rug for the one thing I would add there, Andrew, is just this, you just have to prioritize it. Right. And so every day we eat, a lot of times, you know, people will work out and they'll prioritize different things, even in the midst of the crazy, right? even when you, you know, you have a baby baby who's not sleeping and you feel like your whole lot. Yeah, we're sick, right? And so you, we have to say, hey, this is a priority. Ephesians 4 says be diligent and preserving the unity of the spirit and upon the peace. So work hard at it.

Matthew 5 says that if we go to worship and we realize somebody has something against us, we need to not worship, run and be reconciled to them. Matthew 18 says if you if you send again. and someone go to them. What I keep seeing in the scripture is this real sense of urgency. And so we know anybody who's been in a relationship, whether they're dating or married, you know that when that relationship is fractured, something just feels off. And so just to look at each other and say, hey, it is a priority to me to resolve this.

I don't want to move us further away. I want to move us closer together. And so, and to determine the time to say, hey, here's when we're going to do that. I'm going to put, you know, our baby down for a nap at three. And so can you make sure you're here at 3.15 and we can sit down and have this conversation. The problem with that is when we have that moment of peace and quiet and rest, it's like, okay, I don't want to screw that up with. Yes. It's like when you go on a date, you know, you finally get a date and you're at that restaurant and you love it and everything's right.

I mean, the last thing I want to do is throw this date in the, in the garbage by bringing up that hurt from Tuesday. But it's important. And just know that we're running a marathon, especially in marriage. It's like, okay, we're running a marathon. We're in this for the decades. And so, you know, one ruined date is not, it's going to be okay. And I think also a lot of times on the back side of conflict, you're healthier, right?

You feel closer. I mean, sometimes you get to make up in even physical ways. ways, which is fun. And so just right, just to work toward being closer is a great thing. I think, too, to really use that time in between, okay, if we're having this conflict, we're not able to finish it right now, revisiting it later. I think so often I am very prone to, to, you know, get my case in my head of like, okay, what all has he done that, you know, and how can I get my offense I guess and instead of doing that like really to ask the Lord okay Lord show me any wicked way in me you know and and help me to turn from that help me confess it to help me to repent from it

and so that's cool using that time that's really important because you know the the specific example in Matthew 18 they're on their way to court and when you're on your way to court you're thinking about winning like hey how do I win and he says don't don't think about winning think about making it right with your brother or sister and so i think i think the the thoughts that you feed take you places and the thoughts that you feed grow and so if you feed thoughts of anger you're just going to get more angry and more angry and more angry but if you if you feed thoughts of peace if you seek to own your part you know you you grow to a place where you're repentance that's really that's going to change the dynamic of the relationship and i think that's a

huge thing that couples do in the air is when they have that space. They say, okay, well, we can't talk about this until 8 p.m. tonight. So between, you know, 8 p.m., all I'm going to do is just grow really angry at you and hate you in my heart. And so then when 8 p.m. comes, it's, it looks like a UFC match. That's not healthy. No. So your series made me pause and put a lot of thought into conflict. And so there's a couple other things that I came across that were helpful to me. One of them is from a book called 30 Lessons on Living. And this author sits down with people 65 years or older and gets like their life lessons. And one of the biggest things that I took from that was the sooner you can resolve conflict,

the better. And to your point of having that sense of urgency, like the, I feel like the side effect of not resolving something quickly to your point of, you know, the UFC match is, you know, maybe Sean goes and talks to her friends about, gosh, I can't believe Andrew just did this. And then, you know, her little group says, I can't believe he did that either. And, like, you should, you should do this to retaliate. You know what I'm saying? Like, there are side effects to not getting the issue resolved quickly.

And the second thing is that I thought was really helpful is, uh, is knowing that at the end of this in our marriage, we're still going to be married. And that's our, that is our ending point, right? And so I feel like from my perspective, that just helps you get. it's so easy to have the bleak perspective of oh my gosh this is so hard she's you know sean's really annoying me and whatever but if at the end of this i know that we're still going to be married like it gets you out of that mental funk i guess but um i think you had a question um i just i wrote down a question that i was curious about which is what do you think is like

what do you think the greatest mistake couples make in conflict Like, what do you think is the greatest mistake they make? Yeah. I would say trying to win, you know, and seeing it as an opportunity to try. Monica said something earlier that I don't want to blow past because it's been transformational in our marriage. And, like, we have a hard marriage. Okay. And so, like, we are opposite.

I'm, you know, if you aren't any grand people, like, I'm a seven. She's a two. I'm the most extreme extrovert you've ever met. She's the most extreme introvert you've ever met. And so it's just like all of, I love to go and do. She loves to stay at home. And so we work hard. And I would say, you know, today we, and not to boast, but just in the Lord and what he's done,

I think we have the best marriage of anyone that I know close. And that's the work that he's done. And there was this one thing, this one puzzle piece. that fell into place that changed everything for us. And I call it pursuing unity and disagreement. And so I kind of walk through this. She hinted toward it earlier. But it's just like if before, she would come to me and say something.

This is just a hypothetical example. She would say, hey, I think I want a new car. And I would just, I would say a new car. Like, we're not going to do that. We can't do that. And what she would hear is, you're so stupid. What do you think? like really you and just kind of through that negative interpret lens and through my escalation

she would just hear that in the worst light ever and i think coming to this place where and so when i would say that hey we're not you don't need a new car then she would begin to feed these thoughts of like well gosh does he not love me like why can't i don't understand like i don't why can't i have a new car and then she would just want that more and then i would just say and it was like we were playing tug-a-war with the rope you know like i got her side of the rope she's got a side of the rope and we're just pulling you know back and forth back and forth and we're stuck and we it's like we're stuck in this fight and we can't get out and I think pursuing unity in that disagreement looks like this her saying hey I'd really like a new car and me feeling permission to get excited about that

and I think what I think what people do in relationships is there there a lot of times you're trying to parent your spouse and you're you're trying to do well i don't want to get let her heart get too far around that you know and so it's just like i want to shut this down this in the bud before it goes too far down the road but it's like it's okay if she says hey i'd really like a new car and you'd like oh my goodness what kind of car do you want she's like well i'd really like a new suburban oh man those new suburbs those are sweet man like what what color well i like i like black oh yes what what color interior well i was thinking you know like kind of a uh uh you you know, tan leather, oh, that's so fun because Texas, it gets hot and you're going to look

like CIA driving around that, like, listen, hey, I don't know, but let me look into it and just knowing that she's an adult and that, especially if you're talking with someone who's a Christian, that she has the Holy Spirit, that I don't have to correct all of these things, that I can get emotionally excited with her in that. And then if I go, and then I can even go do research and say, hey, did you know that a new suburban is, you know, $65,000 to $85,000 and I don't think we have that in the budget. But what, and she may go, oh my goodness, I had no idea they were that much, right? I'm, I'm, oh, I don't want that. Or, or she might hear that and say, well, too bad. That's what I want. And then I can kind of say, well, I don't, I'm in a place where I don't think

that's a wise decision for us. But if you think it is, we should probably bring. bring some other people into this argument or this discussion, this difference, and let them speak wisdom into it. And then we do what I call widen the circle and bring other influences, other voices of wisdom. And for us, we have a small group or a community group that serves that purpose in our life. And so what happens in that process is we actually grow closer together even though we're disagreeing rather than, rather than, you know, play the tug of war, pull to our side of the

rope, she pulls her side of the rope. It's like, I can come to her side. I can get excited about it and I can apply it and I can say, hey, let's look into that. I'm not afraid of you feeling that way. Does that make sense? Yeah, a lot. That's really good. I feel like that you explained really, really well, a miscommunication that happens a lot in relationships. because, like you said, you have two different people who are interested in different things that, like you said, try to parent one another instead of celebrating one another for their hobbies and their passions and what they think and working through it farther down the road rather than killing the thoughts right when, you know, someone brings it to you.

I would love for you guys to talk. we experience external expectations to a certain degree. But the idea of being a pastor and growing up in a pastor home seems so daunting to me because the expectations for you, Monica, of, you know, I don't know what they are fully, but I imagine that there's some unique challenges that come with your roles in your community. I laugh because I don't know if it's because I didn't grow up in a pastor home. He wasn't a pastor when we got married. But I think for us, it's like we just want to be who God calls us to be.

And so I really don't feel any pressure or expectation to be anyone that God doesn't call me to be. And so I, like he said, we are gifted very differently. And so he, you know, the Lord has gifted him just crazily to lead a church to speak. And with so much wisdom, whereas I'm like, okay, give me, you know, my three kids in our home. And I love cleaning and doing laundry and, you know, all those things. And so, yeah, I think that just the bottom line of, I don't know, there is a pressure. And we try to make it very clear to our kids. Hey, we don't want you to be anyone who God doesn't want you to be.

We don't want you to put on a show. We don't want, like, you know, Jonathan's very open of like, hey, you're going to see our kids throw a fit or, you know, when they were younger or. We're just done with religious games, man. Like, we don't, like, I just, I kind of got to this place where. I mean, I was raising the church, but as you recall that story 19 years ago, being at a club, someone invited me and went hungover. So I think our story is so unconventional, non-traditional, that is just like, man, I want to love people and teach the Bible. And so we are at this really healthy church in Dallas called Watermark and really just grew there like crazy.

They invested in our marriage. They invested in us. That church I went hung over to, I ended up going on staff with, ended up becoming the pastor of. And so that's just kind of this crazy journey. And then since the Lord calling us to this 145-year-old Baptist church in Waco, and her parents were here. You know, I grew up in a small town. And the Lord just kind of grew our hearts for these people, for the people of Waco.

And we wanted to become one of them. And so we moved here. And so the first thing I did was I brought my family on stage and said, hey, this is my family. So here's what you need to know. My kids are not going to perform for you. They're going to be normal kids. they're going to make mistakes. They're going to make mistakes out loud.

I'm not going to be concerned about what you think about me because of the way they act. We're going to raise them in the ways that God calls us to. And I was like, this is my wife. And so we're different. We have different gifts. They're complimentary. She's not going to meet your expectations.

Like if you want her speaking on Sunday, that's not her thing. That's not what she loves to do, feels called to do. That's not where her gifts lie. And so what I know about me and our family right now, is we are going to be an epic disappointment to you at times. And so let's just all be okay with that right now. And trust, even in the back to the theme of conflict, that when I disappoint you, you'll keep short accounts with me.

I think that word is really important on this discussion, short accounts, right? Short accounts that we don't harbor bitterness, but that we go to somebody and we communicate, hey, I feel hurt by you. And that's just what I ask for the body. And that's what I ask for anyone in my life. Like if I offend you, let me know, give me an opportunity to make that right, please don't sit on it, you know. And so I don't know that there are additional

expectations on her. And unfortunately, I know that's rare. You know, I know this. I was going to say, I think everything you just said is a really, unfortunately rare thing, but beautiful thing. Andrew and I talk about this a lot with churches and being Christians. I feel like there's a lot of unfair expectations and pressures put on Christians to be perfect when that's not what it's about. It's about the forgiveness side of it. And I think it's very powerful what you did with your family on stage and just kind of setting the precedent of just because we're Christians doesn't mean we're perfect. We're not supposed to be.

It's this relationship of forgiveness that we're going to be working through, which I think is incredible. You're in Jesus. And it doesn't, it doesn't, um, exempt us from the pursuit of holiness like i want to pursue holiness i want god to deal with the parts of my life that are not like jesus uh but but man i i'm far from perfect i just have a perfect savior i think that you mentioned it but i think that is key too it's like um it's just having an openness and authenticity too where you allow people to speak into your life and so

there's not necessarily a pressure that you feel but it's like man if you have an expectation for me tell me like maybe it's maybe it's something I need to be doing or um you know can we talk about some tools or activities um or habits that young people in relationships can practice or arm themselves with as they're looking towards having a healthy marriage or a healthy relationship in general i know you guys do premarital pre-marital counseling and for shot and i that was one of the most valuable things that we've ever done just because I feel like it set a really solid foundation for us to have healthy conflict. And we've certainly had unhealthy conflict too, but like the understanding that we were able to gain about each other through that process.

And I would love to hear if you have any other tools like that. Yeah, I think, you know, they're all things we've touched on and we can kind of put them in summary form. And so that I hope will be helpful to listeners. so one is just identifying your your family of origin right yeah the the the things that were good and the things that were not good things that were of Christ things that were not because we just think like the way that we fold towels is is the right way to fold towel because that's their mama fold towels and and then somebody else is like that's not the way you fold the towels and it's like gosh i had no idea there was even another way and yeah toilet paper roll whatever that is

And so that's especially true, especially true is just like, hey, this is the way I thought people communicated and to go back and say, okay, what is healthy and what is not healthy? The way to do that is that acronym weenie. So am I more inclined to withdraw? Am I more inclined to escalate? Am I more inclined to negatively interpret for my more inclined to invalidate? And so negatively interpret is where you say, I hope you have a good day and I hear, I'm glad you're leaving. You know, I'm like, wow, what invalidate is, is when she says, hey, you hurt me when, when you said that and I say, well, I'm sorry, you're so sensitive, right?

Those are, that's an invalidation. And so to understand, hey, these are things that I'm most inclined to do. And if you don't know, just ask your partner, right? Because they'll be able to tell you, oh, yeah, that's, that's the one that you do. Secondly, I think just a commitment to keep short accounts. Like, hey, to look at your spouse or your partner and to say, I promise that I'm not going to have conversations in my head as it relates to it. I'm not going to plan arguments. I'm not going to play chess in my head as it relates to this hurt. That when I feel hurt, I'm going to come to you. Thirdly, I would say overlook a small offense. And so the scripture calls us to overlook a small offense. And so it's when, when, when I I'm trying to audit. Do I feel hurt? If it's something that I don't think is sinful and it may be my issue, then I'm going to overlook it. We don't need to spend time on that. I'm going to pray and

move on and take thoughts of that captive. And people say, well, how do I know if I can overlook a small offense or not? And I just would say, if it keeps continuing to come up, then you can't overlook it. It's kind of like when you eat, you know, bad Mexican food, you keep feeling that in your stomach, right? It's like, okay. okay, I can't overlook this. It's staying with me. I need to address it. And so then when you go to address the hurt,

keep in mind that your mission, your goal is to take you to unity, to like grow you closer together, not to fight, not to win, not to escalate. But you want to look at the conversation through the lens of a path of reconciliation and restoration. So as I'm having this conversation, I'm trying to move us toward a place of peace and that takes some intentionality and some planning and some thoughtfulness. And most people, like we just are so given to our emotions that we're not thinking along those lines. And then lastly, at least last thing in my head right now is just the words, will you please forgive me? and try to the practice of, and it's going to feel awkward at first. It's going to feel like a sweater that doesn't fit at first.

But I think you'll find power in it that if you move to this place where you both say, hey, will you please forgive me for and list out the hurts that you think you committed and then give that other person the opportunity to say, will you please forgive me for and have them list out those hurts? That takes you to a really powerful place of peace. Can you guys come lead a church in Nashville? Yeah. Next.

Yes. You guys have incredibly powerful, just, wisdom that I think everybody needs more of. Our time is coming to an end, which is really unfortunate. I want to talk to you guys forever. We do this fun little question at the end. I think this will be fun. We'll see. We'll see how it plays out.

No promises. No promises. So last questions, last three questions. One of you has to choose to go first without knowing the question. Monica's going for me. Okay. Monica, within your relationship, what is your biggest current pet peeve with Jonathan? Wait, what is my biggest wet pet peeve?

Oh, just pet peeve. It sounded like a nervous giggle there. Yeah. I wouldn't, it's just, she's going to have a hard time. It depends on the day. I know. My biggest is my biggest decision. So that's the one, but the, it depends on the day.

I would say in the last 24 hours, it's probably that I've picked up 10 pairs of shoes that literally have only been, like, have come out in the last 24 hours. Yeah. Yeah. And then Jonathan was your current pet peeve with Monica? um um i've like told each other she uh this is like honestly been one of our single

biggest points of conflict which is probably like round two podcast but um it is her hair she'll she'll proof her hair in a way that I just don't care for personally it takes so much time

and and so then it's like it's like offensive to me because I'm like you're doing this thing that I don't like and I don't understand. And so that's, I know that sounds so. Where there is. Oh, I think it looks great, Monica. That sounds so funny. That's been like a point of contention.

And then, yeah, she, like, loves our dog so much. I think I have, like, jealousy over the dog. Oh, for sure. Andrew has the same thing with our dog. Yeah. Okay, part two of the question. question, though. Jonathan, you have to go first this time, is what do you love the most about Monica? She's literally, I mean, like, it's just to follow up literally with the most, I know sounds

crazy, but I believe it with all my heart, the most nurturing, caring, kind person. Like, I tell people when they meet her, I'm like, hey, that's who she is. Like, that's really who she is like that's not a front that's not an act like that's really who she is and um like my kids our kids have no idea i think actually they do have an idea of how blessed they are to have her as their mom because she just i mean she writes notes in their lunchbox every day with bible verses and just wow it's so deeply and it's who she is you know she's just a super kind person and then monica what do you love the most about jonathan sorry I feel like I'm super emotional

the first thing the first thing that like just popped in my mind was honestly just his the way that he loves and pursues and seeks the Lord with all of his heart and soul and strength and truly desires just to live it out faithfully without God's word Wow. We're so thankful you guys took the time to join us today and share so much wisdom. For those listening that want to learn more about JP and Monica, we'll link a lot of things, including the Harris Creek Church podcast where you can find all of the conflict series. JP also does another podcast called Becoming Something that we'll link. We'll also do a social media. And this was this was really, really fun. So thank you guys. again thank you all for having this song thanks for the way you think you guys all you do you guys are

sweet and so we really would would love to hang out in Nashville sometimes so we'll let you know over there anytime we would love that