Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 50 Drew and Ellie Holcomb

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

Today, in episode 50 of Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew, we talk with Drew and Ellie Holcomb. A few topics we cover: - How children change the relationship - What Showing up for life means - How Drew and Ellie met - Dealing with grief - Articulating feelings - What going to counseling for the first time is like - What creative conflict looks like Follow Drew on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/drewholcomb... Follow Ellie on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/ellieholcomb/ If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more. Follow us on Instagram to keep the conversation going at https://www.instagram.com/couplething...  And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail]. HOME CHEF ▶ For a limited time, you can get $90 off your first month. Simply go to HomeChef.com to place your first order and use code THEEASTFAMILY for $90 off - that’s a value of TEN free meals! So, go to HomeChef.com for $90 off! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Mitsubishi Motors, drive your ambition. What's up everybody? Welcome back to a couple things with Sean and Andrew. A podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. Today was a fantastic episode. We got to sit down with Drew and Ellie Holcomb. I've been listening to these two absolutely crush songs. They're amazing songwriters. They're amazing. singers, and we're going to link their information down below so you can check them out too. But truly, they both have voices. I mentioned this in the episode, but he has a voice with such timber, I think is what he calls it. Is that the right word? I don't know, but I do remember you wanted to sing for him.

Yeah, yeah. It was a good episode. I was really impressed with Drew and Ellie and the wisdom they shared. We talk about a lot of different topics, including how Drew ultimately worked his way out of the friend zone as they were dating. How to deal with grief. That's right. Yes, they talk about some kind of major moments in their life

and how they were able to make it through it. And then Drew also dropped what might be, yeah, it might be my favorite line ever since we've been doing these interviews. And he said something along the lines of the human heart was not made for fame. And you'll have to listen to episode to see how we got to that point and why he would say that. But so appreciative Drew and Ellie joined us today. I hope you enjoy this episode. before we jump into it.

If you have it yet, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And give it a rating as well. Again, we're going to link some information in the show notes, so check that out. And let's go ahead and roll into this one with Drew and Ellie Holcomb. Drew and Ellie, thank you so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure to meet you. It's our first time meeting, although I do think we have like some mutual friends.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, Andy and Brooklyn. Yes, that's right. They said that you guys are the couple of their most star-struck by, which is saying a lot. But I'm just honored to be in, like, the host seat right now. I watched Ellie's interview of you, Drew, and phenomenal job there.

Thank you very much. So lower your expectations for how this. Okay. Intimate knowledge, you know. We know each other pretty well. Isn't it strange, though, interviewing your spouse? It is. Because, like, we've done the same thing.

And I, like, we would sit down and I'd be like, I don't know what to ask you. Because, like, you know so much. No, it is. It was a really. You prepared a time. I really did prepare. like I was so excited when we talked about it I was like this is really fun and then I thought we should do our dates like this sometimes not recorded but like I loved the conversation

that came from it and you know I don't know you get we've got three kids and life gets busy and so sometimes I don't know it felt like it did feel like a date on camera yeah well it's interesting because it is an opportunity to like really think about questions that you might not have have asked your spouse because it's like you know it's like oh at this point i know sean pretty well like there's no questions i need to ask her about herself but it was cool that you guys did that i also uh was listening to an interview you guys did um at a conference and you said that on on the similar note that when you became parents it was kind of like a re-falling and love experience for sure yeah hundred percent why i i okay so drew is a he has an amazing heart he's one of the

most intentional men that I know he's amazing he is not like sweet do you know what I'm saying he's just not true I get sweet vibes from Drew he is well now I think I'm kind but I'm not he's kind he's not like oh babe he's not like he's not a PDA like when there were all these things when we first got married I'm like oh you don't like the sun what I thought you loved being it's like on her honeymoon he was like I'll just be in the shade over here and I was like excuse me gives me a headache sometimes yeah and I was like

you can be in the sun I'd like to be in the shade but we need to be in the sun together and I was like why don't we be in the shade together just like absolutely not and I was like see that's kind of how I feel about the sun

but it really was like I will never forget so he is amazing he is intentional he is kind like a wonderful like characterful man but he is not like

cuddled up on the couch Like, I remember when we were first married, I walked in. He was like, hey, we were watching, I think we were watching through Friends, the Friends series. We had, anyway, we were, like, surviving off gift cards from our wedding. Do you know what I was? We were eating, like, peanut butter and frozen pizza, pretty much. And borrowed a Friends DVD set, and, like, that's what we were watching. So we had some ice cream, and he's like, hey, will you get me some ice cream?

Yeah. And I came in with, like, this one little bowl with two spoons, and he was like, no. I mean, I laughed. I was like, I go, oh. that's cute and she's like what and I was like well I kind of want my own ice cream and she started like really crying and I was like oh no she's like I just thought it would be fun to have like one ball and two speeds he's not like a super sentimental like cuddling guy but I went in the hospital I woke up um after falling asleep and I look over and he's with her

he's he's I wake up and I look over and he's just on the little like whatever couch that they have and the thing and he has emily right here and he goes hey little pumpkin i was like did you just say pumpkin yeah and he was like i'll say whatever i want to do my daughter i got really defensive don't don't call me out for being sweet let me be sweet but like depths of tenderness and sweetness that i just didn't know existed within him it was like she brought it all out and it has been it has been so it's been such a joy to parent together to be on the same team. Yeah, I felt the same way, too.

You know, everybody kind of told me, like, the classic sort of thing that everybody says when you have kids is like, oh, it makes it really hard on your marriage, you know, because then your loyalties are split and all this kind of stuff. And which there's obviously some practical truth to that with your time and energy and things like that. But what, you know, when you have a kid, I felt like at least, you know, there's this like person that's half,

you and you feel so connected to them and to watch your spouse like like give so much love and attention this child it was like it was just so attractive and and just like a way that no one had told me that like you'll watch your spouse and you'll you'll fall deeper in love with them watching them give themselves away to this person that you sort of like create it together it's it's amazing to me it is and then the moments i mean it's not like every moment of having kid is like so easy or romantic or like Tinder right you're not like gazing into each other's eyes all the time like with spit up all over you like yeah while you're cleaning up a nasty diaper like gosh this is just you're so cute right but even those moments I think what we I think

when we're at our best is when the craziness happens and you just look at each other and you're like I mean, you laugh together. And you're just like, whoa. Okay, we are on this ride of life together. And I'm covered in vomit right now. Yeah. I love you. Well, you talk about as artists in the interview you did with Drew, as a songwriter,

there's something important about the practice of showing up, as you call it, which is I heard that and I was like so struck by it because in my NFL career, it was like, you know, it took me five years and eight different teams to just like, actually achieve my goal and I heard you talk about showing up and like just opening the the notebook your songwriting notebook and staring at the blank page and you say that the blank page is the enemy of songwriting or something like that and it's like being there living in the moment and uh actively engaged whether it's parenting songwriting football whatever I was like gosh that's that's really what it's all about it's just like you don't know what's going to happen when you sit down to write a song

but like if you're there and you're like trying putting your best foot forward then that's the best you could do you know so yeah yeah for sure we've even started that like the songwriting for a long time i i especially pre-kids it was sort of a we'll just wait till inspiration strikes and then i'll write and then once we start having kids it was more about like getting it on the calendar right like making yourself show up to do the work and we we realize in sort of the beginning of the quarantine in the middle of quarantine that that life was kind of getting away from us And so our new practice of showing up is that we have a date night every Tuesday night. And it's like, and like yesterday all we did was go on like a two-hour walk and go get dinner.

But it's been really, it's like we have to make time to even just have conversations about like what we're thinking and feeling about school or what's going on in the world or all these different things that are happening. And that's been a fun sort of new. And we've been married for 14 and a half years. and it was still like we're still like having to like proactively show up yeah for each other wow figure out figure out how to do that but it's funny we're our neighborhood is very um i don't know we've lived there for 15 years 15 years now and we know a lot of people like because it's just like you you're there we have a lot of friends in the neighborhood it's amazing i love it about the sidewalk neighborhood it's like people walk around and everything

And we laughed so hard yesterday Because I think seven different times We would like pass people on a walk And we'd be like In the middle of people Inever conversation that we're having And we're like oh hey We're like oh there's a friend on his bike

With his one and a half year old And we stop and talk And we walk another like three blocks And it's another friend's running And he stops and talks for a minute And then some friends with their kids drive by We're like oh my gosh You need to like go walk in the woods or something

And then a guy that I work That's like on the purpose of the the record label I work with, he walks by with his new dog, and they just move in the neighborhood, and it was like, man, this is like, we've got to figure out a new way to find a place to walk so we can finish the conference. But everyone that saw us was like, we're the kids. And you're like, I know, right? We dropped them off in Mexico.

Yeah. We're like on a date. It's so cool. It's so fun. It's so fun. And that's the thing. And both of our parents did a really good job of this, but they, um, we're, um, we're, um, We're like, hey, I mean, your dad, what did your dad be sitting here?

Oh, he's always say, don't you ever forget that I love your mother more than you. Wow. But? That's terrifying and romantic at the same time. Totally terrifying and totally romantic. Yeah. And I was like, he was like, I'm only going to be, you're only going to be here for 18 years. And he's like, then your mom and I are going to live in this or live together and be married together for probably 60 plus years.

Because they got married at 21. Yeah. So it was always like this like, whoa, he loves her more than me. but he really loves her a lot. So I guess he loves me a lot too. Yeah. It was sort of like his way of being, especially when I got like teenage years

and I started getting real sassy with my mom, you know, kind of know it all. Yeah. He was like, don't you forget, son. My loyalty is with your mother, not you. I love that, though. I mean, we actually talked about that the day that we had our daughter. I said, we always will be each other's number one,

and she will be our number one, but not like individually. And we've always talked about how you can't be a good parent unless you have your priorities straight because if you put your child before your spouse then it like the dynamic doesn't work so terrifying the way he says it yeah yeah for sure I agree with him I want to hear the story of how you two came to be a couple because for my understanding in an interview did you said that at one point Ellie was almost married to another guy and so I respect that because I had like Sean because you were almost married to another woman is No, no, no, no.

I respect that. Sean made me work to date her. I relate to that. I feel like personally, too, unless you're married or engaged, fair game. Like, if you're dating somebody else and I fall in love with Sean, wait, wait, am I saying this right? I don't know. She's dating someone else.

Yeah. And they're not married yet. She's fair game. That's what you're saying? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Got it.

Yeah. So I'll, I'll, I don't know about that one. We'll come back. Yeah, we'll get some clarity. Yeah, we'll tell it because, and Ellie, you can interject at points because we want to keep it relatively, you know, short. So, Ellie and I were really good friends in college. I was always, honestly, interested in more than that,

but I knew she was coming off of a really intense heartbreak when we first met. I was a sophomore. She was a freshman at UT. And I immediately was like, wow, this girl's amazing. We started hanging out, and then it became very clear to me that she was, like, not ready to date anybody because of this high school, you know, heartbreak. I had a classic high school heartbreak. Wow. You know, like, that just, like, stays with you for several years.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was. I was not, I was not really. And then we also, like, I could just tell that she liked me as a friend, but that was sort of the extent of it, you know. Friend zone. I was pretty severely friend zone.

With a beard like that? I didn't have the beard. See, that's the problem. I didn't have this magic So I went off to study abroad in Scotland And while I was there she started dating this other guy And when I got back He basically had like

Convinced her that like I was out of bounds even as a friend Right and looking back on he was probably right He was pretty smart You know in that way But when I moved back is when I started singing I started writing songs in Scotland and moved back to Knoxville, started playing out around town

and, you know, knew that she was a great singer. And so I'd be like, hey, you want to come sing with me? So we would, she'd, like, come up and sing, kind of like she does now, a couple songs. And one thing led to another, and about a year later, I moved, I graduated, moved back to Memphis and was, like, moving all my life.

And I had heard, did a great friend that they were about to get engaged. And, you know, I respected her enough at the time. And go, like, well, if that's, you know, as my friend, if that's where she's, said it, then I'm just going to like back, you know, respect that. But then I remember, I never forget, I was driving to Knoxville for a show, like four or five days later, and I was just going to see old friends. And her best friend, who's one of my good friends, called me and was like,

hey, here's where we all are when you get to town and come over to so-and-so's house. And I was like, okay, great, I'll be there in like two hours. She's like, oh, by the way, Ellie and so-and-so, he must not be named. They broke up today, and I was like, what? She's like, it's a pretty, it's a pretty bad scene. Broke up on the day that he was going to propose. Thank God. I mean, really, like, but it was wild.

Wait, he broke up? Yes. Instead of proposing. That's right. Yes. Which we don't have to stay around there too long. Let's leave that. Move on.

Back to me, guys. Everybody was shocked, including me, and I'm so glad. But I remember hanging up the phone, and I was just like, I feel like myself, like, because I had kind of suppressed my feelings for Ellie, and they're all just came like rushing over me, and I was like, oh, no, oh, no, no, no, no, no. I know how this ends. She doesn't even really like me. What am I?

Oh, man. And I get there, and she's there, and she comes out, gives you, like, the biggest hug. And we sit and talk for, like, two and a half hours. Dang. And I was like, oh. God, it's making me tear up. I was like, golly. now I'm freaking in love with her.

She's going to break my heart, you know. And sure enough, she kind of did. Basically, she did. So we started talking a bunch, and I was playing music. She was singing with me this whole fall semester of her senior year. And around Christmas time, I was like, hey, just for the record, like, I don't want to be your friend. Like, I basically wanted to be with you since we were, like, freshman. And sophomores.

It's like a movie. I know. And I was like, and I know that you're not ready to date anybody because you're kind of recovering from this thing. But what I feel like based on, I'm just going to say this, I was like, you know, I feel like I've earned the first date. That's freaking cold, Drew. That's really cute. Love that, dude. And he was like, I'll wait for however long need.

Wow. Then random guys comes into the middle. He who should not be named. A second. This is wild. This is crazy. And this guy was super aggressive, you know. Yeah.

And all of a sudden, that was around, like, early December. And anyways, around February, I had a show in Knoxville, and she came, and he came to the show, random guy. He was kind of, like, couldn't. She was trying to push him away, but he wouldn't. So that night, she basically told me, like, hey, I need you to, like, completely back off. And I was like.

To you? Yeah. And to him. And to him. And I was just like, I can't believe I'm getting lumped in with this guy. she's only known for eight weeks. Like, this sucks so bad. And I remember I was just like, I mean, I was devastated.

Just like, I can't believe that this other random dude is like coming in the picture. And anyways, I was about to walk away from the whole thing. And I called my dad and he was like, he just starts laughing at me. I'm like, why are you laughing? He's like, why don't you just do what she asked you to do? And I was like, what, like, whoa, what do you mean? Because I was like, I need to move to Knoxville. I need to tell her I love her.

I need to like double down. Or I'm like, I'm out. Like I'm moving to Mexico Yeah I'm out of here Like I'm calling her and telling her Never mind So he calls He's like why don't you just do what she said

And I was like What do you mean? He's like Why don't you just back off And give her some space And go live your life And he said He was great advice

He said I love this He said nobody wants to be Somebody's end all be all Why don't you go live a life That she wants to be a part of Whoa chills Dang

Like no girl wants to be The end of the story They want to be swept up Into a story right yeah i mean it's very true so i was i was um a pilot at the time like uh small planes for fun what yeah and so i was learning the first day that i met drew ever in college he was coming up the stairs i did my first solo this is the most interesting man in the world it's i know he's kind of crazy uh but i the first day that we ever met in her whole life i i'm a very

friendly person and she literally was like hi i'm ellie hey i'm ellie what's your name drew and i was like what did you do today and he was like actually i flew a plane for the first time today oh my gosh he still let out because he was taken then like four months later it was the second time i saw her and we're at this party in somebody's apartment and it's a big circle of people that are my my friend group Ellie comes into the friend group with the host and the host introduces her to everybody on the last one and before our friend betsy introduced her She's, Ellie says, wait a minute, haven't we met before? And I was like, I don't know, have we?

She's like, aren't you like a pilot? And I was like, yeah, who told you that? And she goes, you did. And all my friends were like, oh, you're so busted. You're totally using the pilot thing to like pick up girls, you know, which was not totally false, but. Not totally false, but not the case with us. Yeah. So anyway, so what I did after my dad said that, it was like, I just like, I was playing a lot

shows writing songs and i was flying like every day i was trying to get a bunch of hours and so ellie would call me and she's like what are you doing like hey i can't talk right now i'm i'm actually i'm getting the plane i'll call you later i really missed him yeah yeah i told him to back off i was like oh because we were before that we were between like it didn't actually want you to yeah yeah she had been like from the time i told her how i really felt through like the the mid-february we were talking like almost every day yeah and then she like cut it off and i didn't i just was like not calling and then just like a week later she's like hey um so i'm so I got this paper I'm working on.

I wanted to get your opinion on it. In my mind, I'm like, okay, she misses me. This is like a good sign. So it totally worked. My dad was right. And then finally started dating like two months later. Yeah. It was six months from that first conversation.

I'm pretty sure if Sean asked me to come seeing with her, I would totally do it. Yeah. And then she would never talk to me again, though. So was it if that was the first pickup, that's pretty much how that would go down. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So to a certain degree, there's been a decent amount of loss in your guys' relationship and lives. And you tell the story about your brother. And then I think in a period of four to five

years, you lost two or three maybe like friends. Yeah. I'm curious your parent, both of your parents seem to have like really laid a solid foundation for you both. What did you see in your parents and how they dealt with that that you guys have carried forward for since then yeah yeah well i'll go since i sort of endured this young tragedy when i when i was a kid i had a brother that passed away which you sort of referenced but so i was i was 17 he was almost 14 he had special needs it was spina bifida kid but he was like totally like a functioning you know he had no like sort of mental disabilities, just all physical. High functioning, highly social, highly beloved.

Yeah, a really beloved guy, and it was a really big surprise. Like, I was actually out of the country when it happened. So I think what I saw with my dad before that point was sort of your classic just like leader, get it done, you know, nose of the grindstone, not super emotional, but a lot of fun. Like we traveled a lot as a family. He made sure my brother, I think there was, my parents knew that his life wasn't going to be like a long life, but I think we expected like 30 or 40, you know. So, dad took him skiing, taught him at a tube behind a boat, like, on the back of a horse. Like, did all these, like, tried to figure it out, you know, like, as best he could.

And after, or when my brother passed away, my dad sort of welcomed us into his grief, which was really sort of shocking because I'd never really see my dad cry. and I saw that pretty young. And I think more than anything, it just taught me, even within the context of their marriage, because a lot of times like grief and sorrow and difficult things can break up a relationship, especially special needs kids. It's like a sort of a data point

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child's next visit. Their marriage falling apart. So they actually doubled down and really focused, did a really good job of like, like they did a monthly, every month in my entire childhood. My parents were doing overnight without the kids. That's awesome. Like even in town, there's like a Hampton Inn down the street that had an Italian restaurant next door to it. And they probably went, there's like an overnight there like 20 times. And we get my grandmother come watch us or, you know, whoever, babysitter.

So I learned a lot about just sort of like investing in, and part of the reason they did that was because my mom was exhausted because taking care of a kid who had five doctor's appointments every week in 14 years is exhausting. You know, and so he did a good job of sort of investing. in her rest, which was really wise, and I think it really helped them. And everybody has the means for that, too, so it's not, I don't, it's not like, I didn't recognize that. I didn't recognize that. My dad was a dentist, he had, you know, the means to do that kind of stuff.

But also the heart, most, a lot of people have the means and don't spend the time in the heart on it. So being invited into that grief and then our own grief was, we were, like, it was a safe place to know that, like, the world is broken. and hard things happen and sad things happen and the way we get through that is we love each other in the midst of it. So that was a big part of it.

And then, you know, I think both of us have been through a lot of hard things. There was a season of time in our marriage, probably like seven or eight years in. Yeah. When three things happened basically simultaneously in our friend group. Some friends lost a two-day-old.

Dang. Just some really tough health stuff. Another good friend with three kids. kids got diagnosed with cancer, pretty aggressive form of cancer. And then thirds are some of our closest friends. Their marriage fell apart. And another friend checked into rehab. Yeah.

Yeah. Another friend checked into rehab. And so it was just like. And then my dad was diagnosed with cancer. So it was just like a, it was really hard season. So Ellie always says, you know, like, we talked about a lot together. But it's like idea that one of the great like points of living or like. ways to make it through life is to hold like joy and sorrow simultaneously you know like that's

how you can sort of survive and thrive throughout whatever happens in your life is like not ignoring the fact that like life is hard and it's broken but also not letting that win the day you know and they're not necessarily competing there i think they're part of the same thing you know your dad did that as as an outside observer watching drew's family greet and I never met his brother and it's amazing our kids have no idea because I know so many stories about him and tell stories about him

because they do such a good job of talking about him and I anyway I can't wait to meet him one day I'm just like I am so grateful that they they grieve really openly

and I've watched them do that over the years something will hit and grief is weird like that right like something reminds you of this person and i will watch his mom just be like oh that reminds me j oh miss it's crazy oh let me take a story about him and i mean so it is both like she lets that move through her let's other people into that but doesn't just remain there and would go on to tell story and your dad i wasn't at his memorial service but your dad at a service had two different lists and he won was a list of really funny stories about Jay

and who he was and amazing stories about crazy funny things that he did and then the other was a list of people who wanted to think a list of people who wanted to think he would start off and say like hey I want to think I just want to like thank our my mom's parents who we live five doors down the street from my grandmother really helped take care and he's just like thinking them then he gets emotional about he's like all right now to this funny story you know he kind of like every time he would get choked up in the sort of thinking people

he would go to these funny stories it was a great picture of what it's like to be alive you know it's like oh this is really hard but it's not just hard it's also really great it's also really beautiful I think it's like a really beautiful perspective to have on life because

we being able to interview a lot of different couples and just hear what people have to say about marriages and relationships don't realize that sorrow should be part of a relationship They think that it's a bad thing And it's something that you have to run from And if there's anything sad or hard Or grief, it pulls you apart

But to have that perspective That it goes hand in hand And it should I think, yeah Really helps a relationship To grow stronger Yeah, and it wasn't even just like Our upbringing, like we've done a lot of, you know

I think We've done a lot of counseling over the years You know, both together and separate And I started going to this guy Like three years ago, after meningitis, I got pretty, I don't know if I was, like, clinically depressed, but I was really not in a good spot. I just couldn't really get my body to recover. And so I was like, I need, you know, so I found this guy.

And he was, like, helping me give, like, instead of just, like, feeling everything, he actually gave me words for it. So instead of, you know, Ellie and I'd be in a fight, and instead of me, like, trying to prove my point, I'd be like, I just, honestly, this conversation, just makes me feel really lonely and sad. She's like, what? And I'm like, she's, then you're not arguing. You're just like explaining, like, when you said that,

it makes me feel sad. I feel sad. Which is intimacy. Like, into me, you see. Like when you, you can get past, and it's not that anger is bad either. That's like a check engine light. There's something else going on.

So that's pay attention to that. What can that teach you? And I literally was like, I think I need to go to your counselor to learn how to be married to you. Yeah. Because you, again, like the tenderness, the vulnerability, this is amazing. Like, I love it, but I'm like, you're not sad. You know, you can carry so much. Your capacity for life is crazy, large, and your shoulders are broad.

Like, you are able to carry a lot of stress, a lot of stress, a lot of. sadness a lot of sorry and and when you started letting me into oh I'm really lonely or I'm really sad I was like you yeah she's like no you're not okay and you're laughing at me makes it worse I'm like oh I'm so sorry I'm so sorry yeah I thought I was the only one who felt lonely and sad sometimes you know so that was one of the things I was curious about you both are very I would say creative people and I from My perspective, it feels like creative people feel more deeply or they're more in tune with those feelings, maybe.

They haven't shut, you guys, you guys welcome emotion. You don't shut it off like a lot of people do. Yeah. Does that make arguments harder? You know, because like me, I'm not, I'm just like a guy. And I have feelings for sure, but it's like, I don't like feel in there. I'm just a guy. No, no, I feel for sure.

but, you know, I was curious if you, too, being like that affects how you argue or, like, did that, was that a hard thing to learn how to reconcile? Well, we, I mean, our early years were very, like, sort of typical of a young married couple. Like, Ellie ran away from arguments. I ran towards them, you know. Like, bye, bye. I'm like, I'm like, you're right, you're right, I'm not. You know, and I was, you know, so, anyway,

that part of that was just personality, too. It wasn't just, like, guy, girl thing. It's just, like, my personality is more of a, like, like, if I have an issue with someone in my band, like, we talk it out that day. Like, if I have a, you know, conflict, I like to sort of head on right into it. So we never have to worry what he's,

if he's upset about something, you'll know, you'll know, which is honestly such a gift. Like, it's amazing. It could also be sort of disruptive. Yeah. It can be uncomfortable. So, especially when you, like, if we first get married, I'm like, we would have dinner with somebody else and Ellie would say something.

I'd be like, that's actually not what I said. And she's looking at the other couple like, we're fine, you know? Oh, my gosh. I remember a big issue when we first got married was I, I just wanted to use to having to tell anybody else where I was. Like, do you know, like he was worried about me. I was also traveling, I was touring at that point. She was teaching school. Yeah, and we did get, we got mugged like five days before a wedding.

So there was some like, like, jokes. Yeah, it is crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. We were okay and everything, but it was, so he had reason to feel. So like eight weeks later, I'm like on a, you know, find somewhere to play a show gone for two days and she's at home alone in the neighborhood where we got mugged. And I like, it's 11 o'clock and I'm trying to call her and she's not answering.

Because I've like got music on. and I'm like grading papers and all of a sudden he would and he would feel so worried obviously because I'm not answering my phone not good at answering my phone but I'd hear a knock at the door and I would be like

yeah and I would look at my phone and it's like 11 missed calls and he would send over a neighbor or friend in the neighborhood to be like are you okay so there's one and then she would call me and be like I'm so sorry I'm like great I'm glad you're alive

I don't want to talk to you right now I'll talk you tomorrow goodbye you know and so you definitely came in one time to a friend's house you couldn't and you knew that I was over there but I wasn't answering my phone and he busts in the door and he was like are you dead are you raped and I was like no I'm fine he's like well I don't know because you won't answer the dang phone and I was like I'm so sorry and in that in that circumstance all the girls that I was hanging out with are like oh my gosh I'm like it's fine I'm fine I'm fine for the last four hours

I don't know where you were. I was getting so much better. Oh, for sure, definitely. But it has been, it has been really. 15 years later. Yeah. I always say 15 years later. Yeah.

It's attorney. But when I started counseling, I was literally that girl that went to counseling that was like, I was like, my first time I was like, my first time. I was like, so I have this friend that's going through a really hard time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just need to know how to help them. Yeah.

She was like, actually, you need intensive counseling. So this friend of yours needs to come back often. Yeah, your friend needs to come in and talk to me often. And I was like, oh. And she was like, salsa, think about salsa. I love salsa. So I was like, yes, mild medium are hot. And I was like, okay, talk to me.

She was like, so you can come in once a year. That'll be mild salsa counseling. And we can talk through the year and give you some strategies or whatever. Medium can be a need to know basis when your friend is having a hard time. You get into fighting, you want to learn how to, like, work through that or navigate that. She was like, hot will be exposing some pretty unhealthy patterns that are in your life that you have no idea or there. It will be really hard. You will not want to come back every time you come.

So she was like, you can choose mild or medium, but in 10 to 12 years, your life will fall apart. Or you can choose hot. Whoa. And I was like, oh, my gosh. For my friend. Yeah, that's also for my friend. My friend, she loves spicy, spicy stuff. I was so grateful.

I felt relieved because I could sense patterns in our marriage. I always say that Porter's Call is this counseling service for musicians. And so I always say Porter's Colle saved our marriage before we knew it needed saving. Like they taught me how to show up for myself and be who I am and fully in our own marriage. And that means you have to have conflict. sometimes and I hated it and I remember I mean we were in a Volvo station wagon for the first how long for marriage four years yeah four years we were in the same car and it's really hard to avoid conflict when you're just in the passenger seat yeah we were together starting the second

year of our marriage we were together basically 24-7 for six years all the time so I would be mad and just be like look out the week go you know like I don't there I can't escape this and when we started having conflict, I was, I was just talking to his brother and his fiance last night. I remember when we first started having conflict, it was so hard for me to learn how to fight well, if that makes sense to, like, really work through conflict. I was, I didn't want to die at all, but there were times on the interstate that I'm like, okay, we're only going 65.

If I open this door and just roll out. Like, I think that physical pain would feel better than how. all this feels right now. Makes me sound like a terrible person. He was not a jerk out. Oh, I just was not. I didn't know how. I felt like an infant at conflict resolution.

And I was not good at it. I was really bad at it. And so I was actually mainly the problem. But it was hilarious because I'm like, I would rather feel physical pain. Well, we talk about that all the time. We're very open on podcasting YouTube that we argue. And people are like,

I've never argued in my 20-year relationship. You guys need some help. And it's like, no, arguing is good. Yeah. But trying to figure out how to communicate something when you're anger. You haven't argued in 20 years. You need some help. You need hot sauce.

You know hot sauce. But trying to figure out how to communicate when you're angry and trying to figure out how to make your spouse understand because you're speaking different languages. Yeah. Because you feel different emotions. You're different people. And you have different histories. Yeah.

It gets so frustrating. And it takes a long time. to figure it out. It takes some work. Sorry. We're listening to this pastor in Dallas, names Jonathan Pocluda, doing this whole series on conflict.

And he starts off by saying, conflict is an opportunity, and you need to see it that way. And like in line with the joy and the sorrow go hand in hand. It's like if I feel like, you know, whatever studies or people you listen to, they always say community is the biggest reason for joy.

But in order to experience true community, you have to have conflict. You have to work through it. Yeah, there has to be. So anyway, I cut you off. No, I just, I think I remember our first, like, really big conflict. When I started counseling, we were in London, actually. And he was, he had been studying, you complete, were you finished with your master's program?

I was up in St. Andrews in Scotland. And we met up after I did the two weeks. Yeah, we met up after his, like, kind of two-week stint there. he was getting his master's in divinity yeah anyway I we got there and we were in line for the London eye and y'all I'm like okay there's just something that was said that I was like okay I need to address this I'm not going to run away from this I'm going to have the conflict and we started it and I got so upset that I didn't see anything on the London Eye and it's like sunglasses on we stood on opposite side of it and I was weeping there's not a

tears running down my face. I was like, awesome. We need to go redeem that experience. But we went to the hotel lobby. We went to the hotel lobby afterwards. And we had Peroni, this Italian beer, a couple of Peronis, and those little nuts, like the bull nuts. But at the end of that conversation, I remember, looking at him and I'm like, you're still here. Okay. Like, we can do this. I was freaking hard. But so whenever I see Peroni on a minute, you, I'm like, I will have that because that is a taste of hope to me. Yeah. And like reconciliation like that, oh, this is what marriage is.

This is what doing life with somebody is, is being able to just stay. It's the coolest thing ever. It gives me pumped up. Marriage is like the coolest. Well, I feel like. Beautiful. It's hard work. But it is like when you move through that and it gets easier.

It's not like we don't fight anymore, but you learn to have conflict better. Yeah, for sure. And to know. other to let it be a way to know the other person better is we we talked to a couple once who they were so wise um and they were saying that argumenting or argumenting that's not a word arguing um it's so intimidating at first because you don't know the outcome yeah but they said when you learn when you start learning within your marriage what the outcome is every single time which is you're still there it makes it easier and easier every time to confront something because

there's no out. I mean, it's, when you know your person's going to be there at the end of it, it makes it easier. Yeah. So much easier. You know how the story ends, if you will. But funny side note, I once asked a married couple. They've been married for like 10 years.

No, this used to be your go-to question to ask couples. And I was like, this is terrible. Because, you know, we're like three or four years in and we're having this really deep conversation. Everyone's being like open and honest. And I was like, what's the biggest fight you guys have been in as married couple? And then they just look at each other. And I realized at that point that that fight never usually goes. It's never resolved.

There's some things. You're like, so you want to relive the fight right now? Yeah. We've caused a lot of arguments to resurface because he will ask this question. And every time I'm like, oh, my gosh. You're like, I'm done.

I'm curious not related to that. You guys work together for six years, I guess, officially in a band. I don't know. Eight and a half. Eight and a half on the road together. In your TED talk, which is dope, you did one, you talk about creative friction. And so Sean and I do a bunch of work together and creative friction is real.

How did you guys, how do you guys do that, do the creative thing and have the creative friction, but also like have the other person as a priority. It's tough. Yeah, it's a really tough. It is, yeah. Well, when you're like, will you tell us your answer? Yeah. I think every relationship.

relationship is different and for us it was at first our creative uh our collaboration was inside the context of my band which had existed previous to Ellie and I being married so she was coming into a sort of work atmosphere that already had like sort of uh you know culture yeah and that culture was this is my band I write the songs I'm the business manager also like sort of a my band and I kind of joke it's like a benevolent monarchy

you know but you know Ellie was sort of a member of the band but also my wife and one of the funniest things we used to

we were in a van at the time and we would Ellie didn't like fighting in front of everybody and so we'd be in the front of two seats and we'd be arguing about something and I would just send

or she would send a text out of the band like hey earphones in that's amazing the band knew like, okay, put the headphones on, like, they need to work something out. And then she'd text them, okay, we're done, you know, like 10 or minutes later. Or three hours later, we're debating on the competition. Have you found out yet?

Did they ever have volume on or were they all just listening? I think they probably did. They're pretty respectful of our space. Our drummer at the time. A drummer hated anything goes. He's like, it's just about love, guys. This is what love looks like. It's working.

It's doing it. That's what we're doing. So we would write a lot of songs together back then. And we have very different approaches to writing. song so my approach is more like lyrics and like what is the song about first and Ellie's more just like let's find a cool

melody and let's nail exactly what the melody's going to be she's more of the sort of music first and I'm more of like lyrics and you know theme first and so that created like every time we would write it would be just like really tough wow you know and so we honestly when Ellie then

when she started writing more on her own she was supposed to be writing songs for us she was writing more ended up writing a whole lot more songs that were sort of about her faith and so it was clear that she needed to be like I accidentally wrote another song about

Jesus I'm so sorry I'd be like no I don't be sorry but you should probably start your own band so she did and I was sort of able to be her sort of biggest cheerleader

and then vice versa and that created some good sort of a time of what we call differentiation. Like we don't have to do everything together. Our work is similar but it's not the same.

And since then we've been able to come back and cross over a lot better because we sort of know our lanes and now when we write songs together I think we give each other a little bit more space and also too if we're writing a song it's like, okay, what's the song for? Is it for Ellie's record?

Then Ellie's in charge. If it's for my record, then I'm in charge. If it's for our project together, put on the football pads, let's do this. There is a friction and attention with that. And I think what's been a really important thing for me, I grew up in the South, grew up in the church in the South, and there is this sort of mentality that I don't think

is the healthiest thing that it's like, when you get married, it's just you kind of disappear and it's about y'all together. and you're just really supporting him. And that is such a part of like supporting together. You become one. You're like a unit. But I also think it is really detrimental to like not be yourself and who you uniquely were made to be,

which is why they, why you fall in love with the person because they're who they are, you know. And so it was such a, it's been such a really, it's been such a good exercise for us. I remember I couldn't be on tour with him when I was pregnant with our first child Emilu I was on bed rest and I was supposed to be on this tour and I remember I got to go to one of the shows

because I got cleared after a couple weeks it was like you're in the safety zone so I could go and I watched him I performed with him for eight and a half years as the first time I've been on stage without her in eight years for seven years because then I got I came back on for another year

but I watched him to the Orange Peel in Nashville North Carolina and he was going to invite me up for a couple songs and I watched him hold an entire crowd in the palm of same by himself he was first to three

open him for need to breathe actually and I was like I haven't watched him do his thing without me being a part of it in forever and I was like holy crap he is so good and I was like don't invite me up I didn't want him

I just wanted to see him do what he was doing and um it has been such a beautiful thing to both learn to be fully ourselves and then i think we're both better songwriters now because of that friction if that makes any sense you get your story is so interesting you being a teacher you going to divinity school and then you both and being a pilot being yeah and then the band and then i was super curious about that point where you weren't officially in a band together. I don't know if I'm saying that right, if that makes sense.

But because Sean and I are kind of in a, you know, like you try to be thoughtful about how you do things. And I love how much time we spend together. But we spend every waking second. I mean, if we spend like two hours apart a week, and it's like, yeah, like that's a lot. So it's just, I feel like there's a lot we could learn

from you guys about that. Well, very similar to what you were saying. It's hard because at different points, of every day, you're wearing a different hat because you're either a business partner or your mom and dad, your kids, or your husband and wife, or you're the HR department of your business, or you're, like, you're, you have all these different hats and emotionally, that's really hard on a relationship because you have to sort through those emotions of, okay, we're having conflict right now, creative conflict. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not in our marriage. It's in our business.

Right. It's in our creative endeavor. But I can't take it first. personally as a wife, and I can't take it personally as the mom. It's just, you have a different, like, it gets to be so hard. It's really tricky, but, you know, if you can do it well, it's really beautiful. Yes. I think, you know, when, like, we've made it through tough, you know, creative seasons or, like, I'll give you a good example. When we were, the way we make records is very different.

So, um, when Ellie, Ellie grew up, her dad's a producer. And so when we were recording. let's call it, let's pick a record, chasing someday. It was sort of an earlier record in our, in our working life and in our marriage. And I'm more of a like, you know, what does it feel like in the moment and like capture that, like, capture the emotion. And if it's not, if I didn't sing it perfectly, that's okay because I want it to feel like real. Whereas Ellie's more like, no, you sing it until you sing it right over and over and over and over again. Like she wants to do it like, wants to sing.

every line of the chorus 30, 40 times until it's like the just the right one. Now, the reality is neither one of those are wrong. Neither one of those are right. Those are creative preferences based on who you are as a person. And so we would fight so much about that. I'm like, you nailed it. Don't do it again. And she's like, no, I want to do it again.

I want to do it again. And so then the next record, I was like, well, can we please make this one more live and in the moment? And she's like, we can try or whatever. So we sang it live three or four times in the band. was tracking for the album Goodlight. And now that record was also a little bit more

me heavy. Like she didn't sing lead on any of those songs because we kind of saw the writing on the wall that she was going to have to take an exit ramp at some point. So she got put on bed rest while we're in the middle of making the record and couldn't come in to sing. And we had a deadline and we had three takes of everything already. And me and the

producer went through them all and we were like, she sounds amazing on all of this. Like we can make it work. And she's like, no, no, no. You'll have to wait and put the record on hold and wait until I get better so I can come sing and we're like we don't have time for that

like we have a deadline and now and then she listens to it and she's like you were right like I sound great on that and it was right for that record because that's how everything was recorded on the record

now on a different record where it's like more of a polished sort of studio approach she would be right you know so like navigating those creative preferences like realizing that some of what you argue about as preference or the way

you do things as preference or how you spend money's preference how you save money like there's there's it's just it's just there aren't right and wrong ways in a lot of these categories um and so navigating that is just like you should be so patient with each other and patience is like the last virtue that that i have like it wasn't given a lot like i had the least i got the least portion from like the you know the virtue gods so god gave you me yeah so god gave you me yeah so god gave me Ellie to teach me patience.

Yeah. And not just patience, you know, she just is a more deliberate thinker. She wants to like look at all the options and I'm more like are you going to show me four options? I only need to see three. Got it. That's the one. Clean up the mess later if it's the wrong decision.

But I think some intentionality has been really helpful for us and you are, that's your strong suit. Like because the layers are so blended of your life when you're working together we have to be really intentional about taking time away just the two of us that has no work attached to it and you add that model by your parents like once a month they would go but we

really try to do that and then every year it's one of my favorite things that we do we take a state of the union trip the beginning of the year and it is it is like okay we're going to look back on last year what worked with work what worked with our marriage what worked with our kids and the stages that they're in right now. Just you too. Just us too. How do we want to be serving? Caribbean or somewhere.

In the shade. In the shade. In the shade. Yeah. But we, but it's, it is, that has been so helpful to, like, really intentionally zoom out from a year and say,

okay, this system worked, or we need more help with this. Like, this is, and figuring out, I think, too, our strengths like this is my lane like i am really good at this and and this is your lane and it's not like we can't ever cross over but sort of letting each other the the strengths that each of

us have like leaning into those and lifting heavier in those and then pulling in help where we need it or shifting things around we're like this is not a great you have to fight standard things like we both have had to fight jealousy with each other about different things I'm jealous of Ellie's ability to play with our kids uninterrupted and like I watch her do it I'm like I don't even know how to do that because I know my mind is thinking about other things you know I'm super jealous of that on the flip side she is super jealous of my ability to get a bunch of practical things done in a short period of time right and so we've like even verbalizing that out loud i'm honestly mad at you because i'm jealous

that i can't do that yeah and it's like okay that just feels good to get it out in the air out in the open but also i love that i love that about you like it's when i favorite things about you but i just wish i had some of it i'm so mad that i can't do life like you can in that way but look we're together so like together i don't know i think it really helps to yeah sometimes if like well organized life can be like one plus one equals three yeah you know what I mean yeah in terms of like our capacity as a as a couple to you know we even had conversations about that we went to a marriage retreat once and this guy was like basically like it's really important into marriage to find out what your yeses are and what your nose are and so like that even drives

things like where do we give our time in non-profit world you know like we want to pick and choose like the things that are like really mean a lot to us and where we feel like we can can have like strategic impact instead of just saying yes to everything because you guys know this as public people you get asked to participate in everything you'd be a part of this fundraiser can you give money to this can you make a video for this and everything's great it's all great and it's all really good and it's all like from the heart someone's vision someone's thing but it's really easy to kind of get lost and all that and we have like had to take a step back and go what do we care about what do we want our sort of like generosity legacy to be

And how can we make proactive steps in that direction? And what's interesting is they're not all the same. Like some of the things that she cares about, I'm kind of like, I mean, yeah, that's cool. Same thing. Some of the things that I really care about, she's like, that's cool. So there's even like some give and take there, you know. And it's just been a fun, I think it's been fun.

That trip in particular has been a great thing for us to sort of create intentionality in multiple areas of life, whether it's, you know, our works, our creative, stuff, how we spend, save, and give our money, and then parenting, and then, like, how we do community, you know? And those are, like, all really important pieces of, like, a whole life. It is an interesting thing, though, and I'm curious about, about y'all, because you're on camera, you're in front of people, you're having conversations live. And earlier, you were like, let's follow back up on that thing that you just said later, which we have that stuff, too,

all the time. Oh, sorry, you're like, just talking about it. I thought. But like I think one of the things and it's really interesting and that's actually how I actually got myself into counseling is we walked out on stage this one night and we were off and and but just busy because sometimes it's like work, there are seasons of work that are crazy and you're both just stressed or maybe one stress and the other's like, oh great. you know like so it is you're navigating that too and having empathy for that is good for yourself and for your person your partner but I think one of the huge things I walk down on a stage and there were all these people out there and you you hear I'm like oh no look at her dress oh I'll go here or whatever and and I had the thought all these people think that I'm amazing what the hell is wrong with you yeah why don't you because we've been in a fight you've been in a fight and and thank god i had the i just that the fact that i thought that scared the hell

out of me i was like that's the beginning of a divorce like that is i don't want to they don't know me first of all like and and you do and i told i we were backstage and i was like i had this thought and i'm so sorry and and i'm going to go to counseling i promise for my friend and so I literally but it is one thing that has been so helpful for us even when we like it's showtime

we got to go on stage and like perform it's to say okay I know we're not on the same page right now but I love you and I'm on your team like and wow

and that has been a huge thing like we will work through this later and a lot of times when we do that and then at showtime we do the show and a lot of the tension that's there. One of us has some clarity

during that. He sings a love song and I'm like, yeah. Or I go, I come off stage and I'm like, hey, you know what? What I said was totally wrong and I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that. What I meant was this. I didn't come across that way. We forgive me. It's just like, oh, okay.

You know, sometimes that we've learned that we need that time sometimes to just like digest whatever it is that's off. you know yeah one of the books that i feel like has made the biggest difference in our marriage and thus my life is meaning of marriage by tim keller yeah and he talks about um he had me read that our first year dating by the way he did yeah and then he didn't propose for three more years i was like okay oh okay it's a great book man it's a great book he talks about you know we're kind of all in the business where people give us praise or people give us uh you know like critiques yeah and he talks about how whether it's praise or critique yeah it should if unless it's

coming from your spouse it should not have the impact that what your spouse says about you does because your spouse knows you the best so that's right if he gives you a critique then that means a lot more than someone on the internet just saying something you know yeah no doubt but i am last question about the creativity thing it's because it kind of relates um at one point you mentioned like you're proud of Drew for being able to you're pretty vulnerable on both of you are in your songs and there's a certain degree of opening up you know and sharing yourself uh you mentioned before the show that like you know you're you're kind of a glass house have you guys been strategic in sharing uh everything or is it hey this is just between

us two and we're not going to share that or You know, Sean and I confront a similar issue where it's like, you know, this is, we know this could be a beautiful art, not sound as good as you for sure. But, you know, in whatever form we make it. Yeah. But this should stay between us. Well, and we have, through trial and error, we've made rules within our marriage of anything that we share, it has to be fully experienced and worked out between us before we share it with the world. And we want to share it. We have that glass house mentality, but it has to be something that there's nothing left to figure out before the world finds out.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we definitely try to be wise about a lot of different things. I mean, that we do or don't share. I mean, our platform is a little different because we're not, our job is not to sort of like talk about our relationship all the time. yeah you know so i mean i you know for instance if people follow me on twitter they know my point of view about the state of the world politics etc if you go to my show you don't necessarily know that about me right because i feel like there's a you know if people are paying money to see a concert they're not paying to be you know like scolded or challenged or preached at necessarily about their

political point of view so i think that but that as sort of a rule of thumb i think that You know, if I'm going to tell a story that maybe has, like there's a couple stories about Ellie that I've told on stage before that could be seen as like being a little patronizing. Like, you know, this moment on our first day, but she did something really funny by misreading something on a ticket. And I always ask permission. I'm like, can I tell, how does it make you feel when I tell that story?

She's like, no, it's fine. Or like, you know what, honestly, it doesn't make them feel good. I appreciate if you didn't tell it again. Or don't tell it in the first place. Yeah. Or there's a moment in a show that is, because we started touring together again, which has been so fun.

I mean, because we took four years off. And like, a lot of years, five. And then it's just been really, really fun doing that, but there'll be,

you know, you're in the moment and you're performing and something is said and a joke is made. And there are times when it's like, hey, babe, that did not sit well with me.

like and so we have to be willing to have those conversations but i think those boundaries are i mean i're like sometimes i'll do i'll be on a podcast and i'll be like because we do live really openly i think that's i love that y'all do that too because i think so many people need to know like it's okay to not be okay like that's part of being human is just not being okay sometimes you know and so to show up to that to yourself to your marriage to your community with an open and vulnerable heart. And it has been one of the most beautiful things. There's so much beauty and goodness that comes from that.

But I do think that there are, it is a, like there will be times that I'll share something on a podcast and I'll be like, babes, real quick, before they publish this, I shared this story and this is kind of what I said about it. Are you comfortable with that? And he's like, totally. Yeah. So it is. And we're very different, too, like Ellie in her music and in her life lives a much more sort of open life about her faith.

Because we have honestly some pretty different experiences and thoughts about that whole world and what it means to us personally and mine is a little bit, is pretty like, it's sort of an internal world that I don't really want to have those conversations with the general public. And honestly, with a lot of people that I meet who don't know me because it's like I need to trust someone before I sort of. of like go there you know and Ellie doesn't have that same feeling about her own sort of faith experience so you know we just we have to be you know like you said you have to be careful how what you share especially about each other you want to I like what you said about making sure you're sort of through the thing before you share the thing um but there's it's interesting the council we went to back in the day uh his name was alley andrews and we got to be pretty pretty close with him and so I asked him one time just sort of a flippant question as we were leaving

I said oh you've been counseling musicians for 25 years like you have one big takeaway and he goes oh yeah that's easy the human heart was not built for notoriety and it was like I feel that on so many levels wow and so that's the tension is like you know you've got like all of us here have a platform where people are listening to us and paying attention to what we have to say to offer the world and that's a beautiful thing but it could get away it can get it can easily get away from all of us you know and like what ellie was same at the time on stage there was another time on stage where we had emilia was a newborn and we were playing every night and we did this one part of the night where we go to one microphone and sing the wine we drink it was really beautiful moment but then like ellie came

but she's like hey i i know you're really busy with the tour and like i was driving our me and our tour manager were splitting driving our own tour bus that tour because we got no money and whatever we're hustling. We were just hustling. So I was exhausted all the time. I had very little time to sort of like spend. Her sister was the nanny on the tour. They're really close.

They were spending a lot of time together, which is great. All of a sudden we looked up and she was like, at least like, that's the closest I've felt to you on tour is when we're on stage in front of like 4,000 people. That feels like maybe not. That's probably not a good like. I'm grateful for that moment. But we need to maybe create some other moments.

In front of everybody. Yeah. And so I think. It is. Those are hard conversations to have. Like, that's, like, not an easy thing to acknowledge on either of our parts. I was like, oh, gosh. But I think to, it is, there is, it is a lot, it is a lot to manage in social media. And I have, you know, I'm like, I try not to, I actually ask my kids now before I post pictures of them on Instagram.

Because I just, really, I don't want to look back and be like, you exploited me, Mom. Like, I'm not. And so often, I love. I love our kids so much, and I love our little girl. She's like this little old soul, but so often, I mean, it will be like, mom, let's just text that to the family. Like, don't post it. And I'm like, why are you teaching me out of this?

And so there is a sense of like, it's beautiful to be a glass house, but it is also really important to respect the people in your own house. And so I think it's like, hey, are we comfortable sharing this? like let's be on the same page and and uh i'm really grateful that i started doing that because it's been a really good check for me too i'm like oh and so there's like way less pictures that i post now because i'm like oh my mom like i love my kid oh so all i want to do is like look at my kids i'm so crazy about them and so it's been a really good like that's been a good barometer and i just always feel like i don't know we're all on a journey learning what works best

for us and some things for certain seasons are like that's great and then you're like wait that didn't feel that good anymore so i think it's just this like open-handedness of yeah always being willing to sort of pivot and you know change course when things don't feel right or yeah or you have new ideas about how to do things especially when it comes up social media can be the most amazing thing but also it can be really like we sometimes will go on a trip and be like you know what this is our trip yeah this is not our followers trip we're not gonna post anything about this trip yeah it's just for us

and then other times we're like this is so bad yeah there's such a balance of just like holding that tension I think but my friend we have some amazing Andy and Jill Gullhorn he is one of

he's an incredible songwriter one of the funniest songwriters of all time yeah he like really poignant Yeah. He's amazing. They're amazing. And they've got three kids who are older than our kids. So they're just like a little further down the road. And I was asking her, I'm like, how do you balance? Like, how do you create boundaries for your family? And like, what are you doing? She was like, you know, she's like, I think what's really important is not necessarily setting all of these boundaries up. But when you look around and you're like, this is too much for us. Like it feels like we've crossed over a line. Like we committed, we overcommitted ourselves. this is too stressful, I'm not well, the kids aren't well, like, this is too much. She was like, I think it's actually just really important to then be willing to hold things open-handedly and have to be like, you know what, we're not thriving here. And then to take a step back.

And she was like, I think your response to that is way more important than like, what are all the boundaries that we need. And I loved that kind of freedom, like, to be like, okay, live your life, go for what your heart is following. And then to be like, take it, take it, take, okay, we're going to pull back and reassess. And that state of the union trip is really one way that we do that. And it's been really helpful over the years. We get asked all the time, they're like, how are you guys able to, you know, do such a good job at preserving your family life and at the same time sharing up the world?

And we're like, I don't know if we're doing a good job. Like, nobody's done this before ever. Like, there's no standard of like doing it well. Like we're still. here we're like all we try to do is just be thoughtful about it be like try to be flexible and like just have a lot of discussions and you know like we don't have it figured out you know we're just we're just going it's like an experiment we're just figuring it out but somebody somebody asked me the other day they're like how do you juggle all the balls I was like I drop them all the time

all the time and then I say I'm so sorry yeah you know like people don't like I don't like we've managers that help and you have people that you know they're running the pot it's not like you know we're all just not just not just like we're doing it all by ourselves that's kind of what my TED talk was about was like man anything like this takes a village yeah you know there's a lot of people off camera right you know and that's actually like has been such a joy and a beautiful part of it and like we have had four nannies now three three three nannies we had a season with a girl who kind of came on and off with us but but three like full-time nannies now

and I told... Not at the same time. No, at the same time. We have one name. That's a lot of advantage. Four years, one or two, and then our other is about to hit two. So I, it is what's been so beautiful about that, because they're usually younger, you know, or they have them for us.

And it's like, we know they don't want to be an Annie for the rest of their life. Like, they have wonderful, beautiful things that they want to go do in the world. And we, like, bless that. But what I told Drew is, I was like, I feel like, like our family just keeps getting bigger. like in our and our community keeps getting bigger as we like feel like oh my goodness i don't know how we're going to hold all these things um it has been really fun to um find people and to develop like intentional community with the people that we work with nannies our management our band um and and to be like to build a great team and you know a lot of a you know it just is like that is an

amazing gift and it's actually like our i think our kids benefit because they're exposed to all these amazing other people not just us who who are working in community together it is a village yeah clearly you guys probably feel the same way but there's that whole like versus don't ever go into business with friends and family and you're like well I'm in business with my wife yeah you guys make friends with all the people that work with us too you know yeah so 14 and a half years of marriage yeah three babies yeah you work together you don't work together Depends on the season.

Loss, hardship, joy, sorrow. Andrew's biggest question that you ask every single couple. And I feel like you guys will have an awesome answer is, at the end of the day, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given or would give to people about relationships and marriage? Do you have anything else? And there's just so many little,

things we've been given over the years that are really really good true every time you talk I like to hold room shakes I don't know if there's anybody else is it a treble it's like the trouble I love it so much the heck is happening this is wild okay so I have one of my I think the one that's always always going is kind of intense but um one of my really kind of mentors growing up I did this night two weeks before i got married where i had like seven or eight guys who'd been really involved with my life older like men scoutmaster youth pastor you know boy scout yeah dude dude let's go come on let's go man yes that's right so he was eagle scott yeah yeah come on sorry it's like my most proud thing about you

honestly and everything in nature i'm like what kind of bird is that he's like i don't know I'm like, you're an Eagle Scout. I didn't take the birding merit badge class. I don't know. You Google it. But he, one of the guys who was at that, at the time, his wife had cancer, and she ended up fighting it for another 15 years. But he just said, you know, just at the end of the day,

you don't know what tomorrow brings. So just like love her today. You know? Wow. And I think that was a really like sort of grounding piece of advice for me. yeah I love that um I think having watched my parents in their relationship and kind of what the things that they navigated through um from early years that I didn't really get to see like so I was really young when they worked through a lot of their stuff and so I always was just like y'all just always had this amazing relationship but they they both have talked a lot of about just fully showing up to be fully present for the people in your life that matter the most. And I think that has been like my dad was gone a lot when we were little. He would say

like he was a workaholic. And he said, and he always says he's like, if I could go back, I would just, my little sister asked him the other day, she was like, what would you do differently like with work like you know like he because he worked a lot he's a producer here in Nashville and um and he would share all of this so I've asked him for permission I don't feel like I'm like totally just sharing his story without permission but he she said the other day she was like dad what would you change like work wise and he goes would have come home more for dinner and I I just I love that um that he even owns that he's just like yeah he's like what actually matters is just showing up for your people in the joy and in the sorrow and

feel like that's been modeled for us really well over the years in a variety of ways we're so thankful you guys took the time to come on the show you have so much wisdom yeah and i'm just so impressed i feel like we could talk for another three hours but we want to respect your time um so yeah if you listening want to find out more about drew and ellie we'll link all of their social media. Check out Drew's most recent album is called Dragons. They're also doing a monthly live stream called Live in the Neighborhood. Yeah. And also the kitchen sessions, I believe is what it's called. Kitchen covers. That's right. That's right. Sing our way through quarantine. It's fantastic. It's awesome. Jamming, hard, dancing, the whole thing

is great. But we'll link all that down below. So thank you guys again. You should do this more often, I think. That's my opinion. But you guys are good at this. So pleasure meeting. Yeah. Yeah.