Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 78 Marlo Thomas and Phil Donahue

Episode Date: August 18, 2021

This week on Couple Things, we dive into a fun conversation with arguably two of the largest guests we've had on the show, Marlo & Phil Donahue. We talk all things relationship and career with these two and it ends up being a conversation we don't want to end. You're not going to want to miss this one! You can follow Marlo on Instagram here ▶ https://www.instagram.com/marlothomas/?hl=en Listen to their new podcast, 'Double Date' here! ▶ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/double-date-with-marlo-thomas-phil-donahue/id1547645093 ANDD....WE ARE GOING ON TOUR!! Check out the link below to see if we are coming to a city near you in 2022! Click here to get your tickets now ▶ https://www.couplethingspod.com/ If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more. Follow us on Instagram to keep the conversation going at https://www.instagram.com/couplething... And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail]. Subscribe for more! http://bit.ly/3rnOdNo Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm Chris Hadfield, astronaut and citizen of planet Earth. Join me on a journey into the systems that power the world. No politics, just real conversations with real people shaping the future of energy. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. You know, I once asked Billy Graham if he ever thought of divorce. And he said, divorce never. murder yes

what's up what's up everybody welcome back to couple things what's Sean and Andrew a podcast all about couples and the things they go through we have been through a lot

speaking of that just a little bit yeah this is our first live intro that we've recorded since having our second child yeah so if we forget how to do this don't

blame the yeah just blame the kid uh we have content all about that whole journey coming soon but by the way how good does sean look right now you look a plus i haven't showered yet for less than a month out i haven't brushed my tooth today are you talking about today or since the baby you haven't just today okay yeah gotcha well what a treat we have with us today yes i love this interview we have marlow and phil donahue that's right marlo thomas and phil donahue are married and this is probably They are the biggest celebrities, I would say, we've had on the show to date. We've had a lot of kind of like young, famous people, if you will. We've had a lot of really insightful professors and other kind of academia world people.

But Marlowe Thomas and Phil Donahue are legends. Phil Donahue hosted the Phil Donahue show for years. He won 20 Emmy Awards. And Marlowe Thomas was an actress whose father founded St. Jude's Children's Hospital. and she is the national outreach director of. So between them, they are just like Hollywood elite. And I was so pleasantly surprised by our conversation because they're passionate about marriage as well.

They had so much wisdom, so many funny stories. And I felt like we got to talk to them for four hours, but got caught off at an hour, which was probably better. Yeah, actually, we did. The conversation was longer than an hour. We got to chatting pretty good. But Phil was hilarious. Marlowe was insightful.

And the reason we were able to do this interview is because they recently came out with a book called What Makes a Marriage Lasts, where they sit down with a handful of couples, including ex-presidents, and many people you would be familiar with, to talk about how they've made marriage work. So it fell right in line with what our show is about, and we're excited to share the wisdom that they have and also that they found through these interviews. The coolest thing about this book is they talk about how it was all this, like, research and data was collected before the pandemic.

So they got to travel all over the world and actually have dinner with all of these couples and just pick their brains about their relationships and why it has worked for them. Yeah. So we will link information on the show down below if you want to check it out. We recommend it. It's good. And it's a good thing to just have lying around, you know. Yeah.

Who doesn't need more marriage positive stuff, right? Yes. But I will say, shout out mom. She was so pumped that we. got to interview Marlowe and Phil. She was freaking out. As was yours. Yes. This is a big deal. So anyway, thank you to Marlo and Phil for taking the time. And I hope you guys enjoy this interview with Marla Thomas and Phil Donahue. Let's get to it. Well, Marlowe, Phil, Phil, it is a true pleasure to have you with us today. I know that I know that you guys have

you know done your fair share of talk shows, but I'm curious where your excitement and maybe nervous nervousness level lies in joining us today on a couple things. Very nervous. Very. Very I had to give him a pill. Yeah. I was stuttering until about 10 minutes ago. I think I'm about my folks, so I'd be sure to, you know, be able to. Okay. That's good news. I am always nervous and self-conscious or maybe more self-aware when I interview, you know, well-versed people such as yourself.

I know, you know, Phil hosted your own TV show for however long, and I feel like you should be the one asking the questions, but here we are. He would prefer it, believe me. He's a very reluctant interviewee. You're going to have to drag it out of him. I will say it's not intimidating at all to see all of the awards just strung out on the walls behind you guys. It is truly an honor for us. Well, you know, this is my study, and we don't put up any professional things in our house, except in our own little studies. So in our living room, you know, our family pictures and all that kind of thing.

But this is the room where we get to show off. And Phil has a study upstairs where he has his 20 Emmys. I only have four. I wanted to put my Emmys outside of the elevator door. And then people would have to step over them. And I would say, oh, who left these things here? And Marlowe decided that probably wasn't a good idea. No, no, I don't think so.

Yeah, maybe you could hang them from like the entryway door so people hit their head on the way in. Yeah. They bump their heads and I say, oh, who left these here? Well, congratulations on your upcoming 41st wedding anniversary. Thank you. As we were speaking before, so honored to be speaking with you both. And I know you just have a book that came out called What Makes a Marriage Last. You have your double date podcast.

I'm curious what inspired both. the podcast and the book you want to you want to take that chief or should i do that you do it okay in our 39th around our 39th wedding anniversary a couple we knew quite well uh was getting a divorce and uh we thought wow they've married 28 years why you know in fact another couple that we know at 23 years got just got a divorce so it was like what how do you discover that after 28 years you know um It's weird enough when people are married three years and they get a divorce. It's like, you'd even give it a chance. If you give your car more of a chance than that.

So we started talking about it. You know, what do they do wrong and what do we do right? What is it that makes a marriage last? And we were talking to each other about, well, what do you think it is? Is it that we have the same goals in life? We were raised the same as Catholic kids. We started to sort of investigate our own. We hadn't thought about that.

And then I got this brilliant idea that we should do a book about an interview, a lot of people who are married over 20 years. Some of them were married like Billy Crystal's married 50 years. President Carter and Rosalind are married 74 years. And then we put a couple of like 18-year-old, 18-year marriages just to see the younger people, what they thought. And so we went out on this journey and we loved it. And then we thought, it's really better, not better,

but it's kind of exciting to hear the interplay between the couple, to hear how the husband and wife talk to each other, and then how they, you know, relate to us. And Phil said, all right, I'll do it, but I'm not talking about our marriage because we never had. But, you know, when you've been married 39, 40 years, you just say, okay, but then once he got there, he did. And I think you did because you wanted to encourage them, right?

Well, we found out that when we talked about our marriage, it like blew the doors open and they talked about their marriage. And it was a very interesting, it changed the whole interview. And the interview was different because it was two and two. I mean, I spent one on one for how many years? 29. 29 years. Six thousand hours. Wow.

Oh, my God. He asked the questions, and he didn't answer any questions. But it's true. Many people, reporters, asked us, how did you get people to talk about those things? I could never have gotten them to talk about that. And I think it's because we didn't go there as reporters. We went to their homes all over the country, went to Boston and San Francisco and L.A. and Florida and God knows where Toronto to interview Elton John and David Fernie.

They went all over the place. But we were meeting them as we are meeting. You know, one married couple talking to another married couple. So it wasn't like a gotcha kind of thing. Nobody was worried that, you know, we were going to try to get them or be afraid of their quotes and, you know, that they'd be misunderstood. It was, that's what we called a double date because it really was. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup.

Pick any two breakfast items. for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. Well, so tell me this. We just had our five-year anniversary, and everyone's like, oh, it's easy from here. You guys got to figure it out.

But then I hear stories of people who have been married 28 years and get divorced. What is the, what happens when you are married for that long and you separate? What do you attribute that to? I think they stop listening to each other. I mean, really listening. Not so much that they're not talking. Your spouse, excuse me, is telling you things and you're not taking it really in. When Phil tells me that he's unhappy about something or something is bothering him,

you know, sometimes I just go on to the next thing. You have to really listen so that you know who is this person and what is the pain they're going? through. What is the, you know, I'll give you an example. After we'd been married about 10 years, Phil had something he wanted to tell me. And he said, I want to tell you something. And I don't want you to do anything but listen. I don't want you to fix it. I don't want you to give me any advice. I just need to tell you this. It wasn't about us. It was about something that was going on with him. And so I said, okay, sure, that's easy. Now, I'm a fixer. If you tell me something that's wrong right now with you, I mean, in 10 minutes, I'm calling somebody to get that fix.

Yeah. So it was, you know, sort of characterologically hard for me. But anyway, he told me this thing. And my first impulse was to call somebody to fix this. And I realized that that isn't what he wanted. And I had to really stop myself from making it better because what all he wanted was to unload it on a person that he trusted and loved and who loved him just to get it out. but not to be told what to do or be advised or to do anything about it. That was a big moment for us. It really was. What he was saying was, listen to me, have empathy for me, and that's all, and love me through it.

That was hard for me because I wanted to fix everything. Yeah. I think for us, when we started this podcast and started talking to other couples, one of the things that really inspired us was we wanted to get married. and we want it to last forever. But I felt like the world was so filled with media and headlines and tabloids of no marriage lasts. Nothing is perfect and nothing can be forever.

And I love having these conversations with you guys who have been married 40 years, almost 41, in your marriage. And we have so many people telling us, oh, it's unhealthy to fight. and it's unhealthy to argue. And if you disagree about something, it must not be the right person.

It's unhealthy not to fight. If you don't fight, forget it. I love that. You have to fight. You have to fight. You know, try not to fight dirty, but, you know, fight. Well, rumor had it that in your 41 years of marriage, you guys had never had a fight.

Yeah. You're saying that's not true. You're kidding. I once asked Billy Graham, if he ever, thought of divorce. He said divorce, never. Murder, yes. Is that a true story?

No, is that true? I love that. That's the best thing to ever come from our show. People who don't fight are suppressing their anger or or they're withholding. Sanjay Gupta talked about that. He would he would withhold how he felt and he'd get more pissed off that she couldn't guess what was wrong with him and I said well why would

you assume she could guess what's wrong with you he said well I was being passive aggressive it took me a while to realize that that was a passive aggressive thing to do you got to say hey this hurts this this makes me feel bad the thing you learn through the year just from reading and talking was we've never been in marriage counseling but a lot of the couples that we spoke to had been and it's It's a great thing to do if you needed it. I think it's the number one, I love you. I mean, you know, to actually commit to marriage counseling, I think, says, I love you and I want to stay with you.

Why didn't we ever do it? No, well, we didn't have that many. We didn't have that many. Well, we had a lot of fights. We fought a lot for both type A personalities, and we both ran our own show. So I was used to being a boss, and I was bossy, and he was used to being a boss, and he was bossy. And so, you know, he wanted it to be a certain way. I wanted to be a certain way.

And we really had to, like, give John McEnroe's wife, Patty Smith said, she said at one point, because they both are very fiery, the two of them. Well, you know John McIner, you've seen him on the court. I mean, he's yelling FU with the umpire, and she's very feisty too. And she said, at one point, I realized, do I want to, do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? So I want to be happy. So I want to let this go. The hell with it. And so that's, you learn that after a while that some of these fights are just so idiotic.

You know, what was it that James Carville told us? You know, he did. He said, when you find yourself in a round and round argument where you said, no, I didn't, you said, I said, you said, kick that can down the road. Now, it sounds so. It's great, though. So superficial. And, you know, but I remember a week later, we were arguing.

And I said, oh, let's kick that can down the road. And we both started laughing. And it's true. You know, there's a lot of cans down the road. But it's, you know, it does, it moves the ball somehow. You know. Well, what do you mean when you say that? Like, just defer that conversation or just.

Or forget it, it's stupid. You're going to say, you said you were going to take. No, no, you said, no, I remember. No, you did. You could have. And it goes on and I don't know. It's ridiculous. And you're in that place where everybody has to be right.

And then you finally just say, oh, the hell with it. Just kick it down the road. Okay, but what if we don't have as good a sense of humor as both of you do? And when we're in the moment, we get tied up. And we can't think of like a funny way to end the conversation, like by saying, saying, let's kick this can by the road. Then go make love. Okay, just jump right to it.

Okay. Go on. But you're going to end up there anyway. So, you know, have your makeup sex before you have the, in the middle of the mom. I mean, so when you realize, you know, what the hell was that about, really? And we talked to Arlene Alda and Alan Alda. They've been married, I don't know, 60-some years. And they used to fight all the time and everything.

They had three little kids. He was traveling all the time for his career. and she felt that she wasn't getting what she wanted out of her career because he was so busy. And she said they used to fight a lot. When I look back at it, she said, I can't put my finger on what we thought about. It was something, but it just wasn't median.

That's an interesting relationship. You know, Alan Alda, I mean, he can't walk down the street anywhere in the world without being recognized. But their relationship began. He was a cab driver. And he used to bring home his, you know, fives and $1 bills and put them in a basket on the table. And she would take the money and separate it according to...

She put them in little envelopes that said rent, food, you know, utilities. The thing is, is they were a team. And you really are a team. If you don't see yourself as a team, then, you know, that's the ballgame. You're the team. And I want him to have everything he wants. That's another thing. You know, people don't really invest in the other person's dream.

From the very beginning, and, you know, 41 years is a long time. So Phil was in his career. I was in my career. And it took a lot out of each of us because we've had these gigantic careers. And the thing is, is that I wanted him to have everything he wanted out of life. And he wanted me, too, to have what I wanted. He wanted. my dream was important to him and his dream was important to me and if that's true if you really

want that and one of you isn't being like hey listen I'm the this I'm to that if you're into that if you're if you're selfish your marriage won't laugh well and I know another piece of advice that both of you have given in previous interviews is that both couple both individuals have to be invested and in it together and I think that's absolute gold but I'm curious so you've interviewed Jimmy Carter and his wife, Ray Romano and his wife, Sting and his wife. I mean, the list goes on. You have George Stephanopoulos, Rodney Pete. I'm curious of all the couples you've sat down and talked with. Is there one relationship where you're like, wow, they do things way different than anything we've ever seen? I don't know that they do things way different, but each couple

what was a very singular. I mean, each couple had to overcome something that the other couple had. There's no such thing as the rice and the white dress and the clear saline.

You know, and everything moves smoothly. Everybody falls in a mud puddle. Sooner and later, some more than one. Whether it's with children, with each other,

each other with careers. Career Sedgwick and Kevin Bacon are actors. They saved $30 million. That's hard to do as an actor. And it was in savings. And they gave it all to Bernie Madoff and they lost it off. Michael J. Fox

three years after his marriage, their marriage, he came home and told his wife he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. Whoa. Three years into marriage. You know? And then Jesse Jackson

cheated on his wife and had a baby with another woman. I mean, these are like, whoa, things that happen. And I said to her to Jesse Jackson's wife, Jackie, I said, did you throw him out? I would have thrown him out. She said, I did. But he came back. She said, he's not going anywhere.

She said, an interesting thing. She said, this marriage is a test of my character. So she saw that her forgiving of him and putting the marriage back together, was the test of who she was. And he belongs to me. And he belongs to me. And she made that commitment. So, you know, Sting and Trudy were married to other.

He was married to another woman, had two children. She lived next door. She wasn't married. She was living with Peter O'Toole. And they fell in love. Now, you know, you fall in love with your neighbor, you know, what could be worse? And they tried to avoid it for a couple of years. And finally, they couldn't.

a kabum happening in the middle one afternoon lorry sullenberger's phone rang at her home at their home your husband just landed his plane in the hudson river right yeah you know now she's got media on the front lawn uh i mean the world has fallen on her house on her self It was an example. I mean, I always, I see this as a kabum, something that you weren't expecting at all. And a lot from that. I mean, the husband could have become a real jerk

because he's like the biggest guy in the world now. She could have been angry about what was happening to their lives or turned upside down and lost their privacy. I mean, that event could have really ripped apart some couples. They couldn't have taken it. that kind of pressure from the outside. So it's, you know, what do you do when this stuff happens? You know, when we first started working on the book and then the podcast,

I said, you know, this really isn't a how-to situation. It's a what situation. What do you do when the ceiling falls in? Okay. You were speaking of extended families and how the family situation could get complicated like with Sting and Trudy. And Phil, I was looking at, I think the clip was from 1981. you did a segment on your show about what the new extended family looks like.

And it was so powerful. You had three different, well, five adults, I think, and four kids. And they had all been married or divorced or, and it was just so interesting. But just to your point, it's not about the how you make it work, but it's the what. And anyway, I'll stop talking. I know you had a question. No. So then the question I'm curious about is, again, within the generations coming up,

everybody's trying to paint this picture of if you follow these rules, if you don't make these mistakes, then it will work. It'll be the picture perfect fairy tale and it'll all be wonderful. But my question is, you guys have interviewed some of the most amazing couples in the world. Again, married almost 41 years.

I know every couple deals with things differently. But what is the big deal breaker? Or is there one? Is there truly nothing a couple can't get through if they're really willing to work through it? Well, you know, that's what I said about

really listen you know keep it keep that ear open keep your heart open he's changing right now so are you in four more years you're going to be different people you're going to keep evolving and changing if you don't you're stupid people you know we all evolve and change you're going to want something different on a life you need to be listening to find out who is he how is he changing who is she how is she changing and and as i told you uh that Tracy Paul and Michael J. Fox's wife said, give each other the benefit of the doubt. Don't say he said that because he wanted me to feel this or he didn't come home last night at the decent hour because give them the benefit of the doubt. Don't be looking to jump on the other person. Step back. Give some

air. You know, I'm not saying put up with crap. I don't mean that. But, you know, give everything a chance, hear it out, you know, before you jump on somebody. And the thing is, if you really like someone, you know, you're probably better to your girlfriend or your pal, your guy pal. You're more forgiving. If your bi-pal acts like a jerk one afternoon, you know, you aren't going to turn your life upside down. If she acts like a jerk one afternoon, that's going to really drive you crazy. And that's what I'm saying. give your spouse as much room as you give your friends because she is your friend and he is your friend and don't let jealousy get in the way of your relationship that will wear you out yeah Phil was very jealous for many years

he would see things happening that weren't happening and it really was upsetting and my friends would say to me well that's flattering I'd say it isn't flattering jealousy is not flattering it's poison and it also makes you the person that's the other person is jealous of you can't stop it there's nothing you can do that will make that go away i'm not i wasn't doing anything he was dreaming it you know seeing it i did a movie with chris christophrson and he was sure i was going to have a can i be honest speaking of jealousy i don't think i've ever experienced this feeling of vocal jealousy that i have of you you, Phil. Your voice is gold. My gosh, it's perfection. I want it. I don't know what you did.

If you got any tips for me, your voice, your voice, the tenor of your voice is just a plus. Well, thank you. You want my autograph? Thank you. I agree. When he leaves a message for me on my phone, I always think, oh, I just love the sound of his voice. Man, it's classic. And that's another thing. there are things you love about each other, appreciate that. I mean, if you like the way she says something or the way she walks or the way she approaches other people or whatever, how she makes pasta, enjoy that, savor that, let her know.

And the same, you know, don't take each other so for granted. That's why I say if you're really listening to each other, then you're going to be getting the real essence of each other. So let me ask you this. You guys have told your story of how you first met and, you know, the clip of Phil, you interviewing Marlowe is classic where there's just this electricity between you two. We've heard that. I also love your comment about you, you know, having an impure thought as a Catholic boy. Anyway, what I haven't heard yet is what was the second meeting like? Let's talk about that. How did that come to be and what was it like? That was Denver. Yeah. I did his show in Chicago and then I left town. I went to Denver. I was on a movie tour. I'm, you know, promoting a film. I really would love to see you again. You were a great guest. Oh, you know, all that kind of flattery about what a good guest I was. And he said, I'd love to have dinner. I said, well, I'm in Denver. Is Denver very far from Chicago? He said, no, not at all. So he came to have dinner with me in Chicago. And I'm in Denver. And that was it. That was it. It was a very sexy, romantic dinner. Uh, he, uh, we stayed up all night. Wow.

Have you been to Denver? Well, I guess I need to go back maybe. It sounds like and go wherever you guys ate dinner. We went to the Brown Palace Hotel. Was that the name of it? Yeah, the brown has a huge American flag in the center. It has an atrium lobby. Well, we stayed up all night and it was raining.

And when he got back to Chicago, I had no voice. He had no voice. They did the show, and it was the first time in his entire career, they couldn't play the show. And then the other, yeah, go ahead. Well, so one of the things I, on that note, it's interesting, you know, Sean and I, Sean, way more than me, and both of us collectively way more, way less than either view. But, you know, have experienced the limelight, Sean with her Olympic success, me with the NFL, and really just being married to her. but we look at the peers that we're surrounded by in the Hollywood culture and it's like how do we ask ourselves how do we prevent ourselves from ending in divorce from having some

existential crisis being addicted to drugs and whatever the cliche result is there how have you both dealt with that I mean with your tremendous success was there ever conversations you had when you know articles came out or maybe for better for worse you know something happened in the career. Do you have tips on how to navigate that when you have millions of eyeballs, you know, that are evaluating your decisions? Well, Phil's theory, I'm very sensitive and I'm very impulsive. As I said, I'm the one who goes for the phone. So I immediately want to speak out. Phil always was the guy who said, never complain, never explain. The hell with it. I mean, people said we were getting a divorce. We've been married six months and there

There were stories all over that we were getting a divorce, that we've been to see a lawyer. And it wasn't true. We had not been to see a lawyer, but they put it in the paper. They're seeing lawyers. And it just broke my heart. And I said to Phil, why would anybody want to step up? This marriage is six months old. It's like a baby crawling.

Why would anybody throw, you know, a darts at that? He said, the hell with them. Never complain, never explained. So we never did. We just said the hell with it. And we kept our marriage. We made a decision. Let's keep our marriage private.

let's not get out there. Let's not do any interviews about our marriage. And then after we were married like 40 years, we thought, well, they can't do anything to us now. What are they going to say? So we got over it. But we kept it private. We decided we went on our honeymoon. We got married quietly in my parents' house. And then we went right to Greece. And nobody knew we were married left. We got out of the country. When we came back, we were very, each of us had a very big career at the time. And so we were asked to co-host the Emmys and co-host the What's it called? The People's Choice Awards, be on the cover of People magazine. And it was kind of scary. You know, it was like, what, what, what? And so we sat down and said, you know what, let's not do any of it. Let's just say the marriage is not for sale. The marriage is not up on the auction block. Tell them the story about the woman on the airplane.

Oh, yeah. We're on a way to Greece. And Phil goes to the bathroom. And this woman, you know, I was very famous for being a single woman who never wanted to marry. it. When I was on the Donahue show, I was talking about the fact that I would never marry. So this woman says to me, yeah, right, I've got my, you know, my engagement ring and my wedding band, and I've only been married one day. And she says to me, are you Marlowe Thomas? And I said, yes, I am. She said, are you married? And I'm like the blushing bride. Yes, I just, we just got married. She said, oh, I'm so disappointed. Why would you get married?

I was always able to say to my mother, Marlowe Thomas, isn't married. and she's not crazy. So I tell Phil this, we get back from the bathroom. He says, what woman? Where is she? You know,

it really felt terrible. But a lot of people, the point of the story is, a lot of people try to make you into something that they need. They try to make you into something that they want from you or that they expect you to be.

And the hell with that. You're your own little team and you're playing your own game. It's completely different from anybody else's marriage, anybody else's ballgame. And I think that's the beauty of finding the right person that you then know, okay, this is us and we're going to make decisions that are right for us. You know, we didn't want to become Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. You know, we didn't want to become a professional couple because we felt that could kill us. That could get in the way of our privacy, of our genuine, you know, private feelings.

I feel like we could listen to you guys all day and just like pick your brains on experience and relationships. But in raising a family together and having, you know, your beautiful kids, what is, what is the one thing you take away from your relationship that you want your children to know? Let's see. I guess that we have faith that the other person is on our side, has our back. I know that Phil has my back. He is not out to get me or hurt me in any way. You know, as I said, I'm a very talkative person, as you can tell. He'll have to fight to get a worded.

But sometimes we'll be out at a party and I'll come home and I'll say, oh, God, why did I say that to Sean? She really looks so upset when I said that I shouldn't have said that. Oh, my God. And Phil will say to me, oh, don't be crazy. You were the most interesting person at the party. Everybody loved you. That was cute that you.

said that he doesn't let me spiral down and you know and that's important that's important that somebody you know wants you to be okay and i i trust him for that i i have faith in that no i had four sons living with me yeah when marl came into my life and i was you know i was scared to death i didn't know what to do with them and uh you know when i would go off on the kids They called it a spaz, two zees. And I remember walking past, Michael? Yeah. Michael's on the phone with this buddy.

He says, I'll have to call you back. My dad's having a spas. And then what did they tell you? Michael, Michael said to me, we like it when you're around. Dad has less spas when you're here. I took that as a great compliment. Yeah. And I know you guys have to be thinking 41 years.

Now, what can we learn from these two people so that, you know, we have that? And I think that, you know, love and listening and lust, you know, those are the big things in your life. And knowing that, you know, you're not going to lie to each other. You're going to tell each other the truth about it. You can trust that the other person's going to be going to give them their best part of themselves. You know, if all he has in his mind is to make you happy, and if all you're trying to do is make him happy, then you'll both be happy. But if all you want to do is make yourself happy, he won't be happy. And it's just, you know, and also accommodation is a big thing.

We learned, we didn't know the name of that, but we learned it on the road talking to these people. And Judith Viorch, who's a wonderful writer, she said, they've been married 60 years. She said, no matter how hard you try, he is never going to be you, and you are never going to be him. So that's a given. Now, try to figure out how do you allow him to be who he is without having it aggravate you? And how does he let you be who you are without aggravating? And we're very different. I'm this impulsive person, and he's this person who takes an extremely long time to come to the decision of what it is we're going to do.

I'm with you Phil That's right And that's the impossible one Yeah And that's a fight for us You know I'll say come on Let's move let's do it

Well I'm thinking Okay So we've had to Do you know Live in that thing And many times He'll say to me

I think you were right That we move fast on that And I'll say to him You were right It's a good thing We didn't do that So we've learned To listen

And say Is he right about this? Is it to be better to wait? He has to say to himself, should we move on this? So we're listening without competing, without wanting to be right. It's what Patty Smyth said. You want to be right? You want to be happy.

And if happy is what you want to be, you'll stop being such a little prig about what you want and try to figure out, you know, she does have a good idea here. He couldn't be right about this. Let's just talk it out. So let me ask this, we've mentioned your many accolades, Phil, with your 20 Emmys, you've directed movies, the list goes on, Marlowe, with your, with your Golden Globe, your Presidential Medal of Freedom. I'm curious, since you know each other so intimately, what is the award or maybe experience that you are most proud of the other person accomplishing? I think that I'm proud of Phil for remaining such a decent human being. You know, this business of, you know, when I first met Phil, almost every woman in America wanted to marry him.

I mean, he was hot and sexy. Is that right, Phil? Yeah. Well, I don't know. She told me. He was very, very popular, and he was single. And women who watched his show, you know, thought he really understood women. He didn't really understand women.

He just knew that women were smarter than most of the other people who did television shows. The women who worked for me and most of my office during the time of the Donahue show were women. And they would all tell me that when a woman came on to me, I didn't know it. You know, I mean, I guess I'm a typical Irish goof, you know. I didn't, I didn't know it. But, you know, with all this right now, we're hearing, I mean, Charlie Rose and Matt Lauer and all these famous men who misbehaved so terribly. And I said to film one day, you know, you had nine female producers and an entire female

audience and you were single and you were always a gentleman you were always a decent guy you know how lucky for you that you were because if you weren't we'd be hearing all about it now you know and i think that's a real accomplishment in the world for a person to be very famous and have a lot of temptation and and not act like a jackass you know it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a what is it's it's it's a It's a, what do they call it, an occupational hazard. Yes. And a lot of men are that way. Which leads us to your title that you guys, are we found of you guys, which is America's

favorite feminist couple. I mean, how does one get that title and the passion behind it? Where does it come from? I don't know that we have that title, but I think I would. was born a feminist because my father's Lebanese and was one of nine boys and they were very chauvinistic. And my mother was one of five Italian, four girls and a boy. And they were very chauvinistic, the men. So I grew up, you know, wanting, knowing that I was going to have my own voice and nobody was going to dominate me. And I had to get rid of the feeling that if you're

married, the man is going to dominate you. I had to like figure that out that he wasn't. We were going to fight about it. I had a woman in my audience stand during the show to ask a question or whatever and she was, the woman in the audience was talking about bicuspids and molars. And I said, are you married to a dentist? She said, I am a dentist. And I said, oink, oink, oink. Yeah. So there were, yeah, I mean, it's amazing. How much you can learn hanging around women who would come in and sit in the audience, and I would encourage them to take part in the show. Phil, what about, what are you most proud of Marlowe for? Well, I mean, her devotion to this marriage is pretty remarkable. And I admired, I admired her family,

too, her dad and her mom. You know, Rosie, her mother and I were aces. And that's unusual. for the Italian and the Irish. Somehow we got along great. But it was only recently that I learned about, I put Kitty Kelly on my program who had written a biography of Frank Sinatra. I can tell this, right? Sure.

Everybody's dead. I'm nervous. Well, this was a real... She wrote really rough, nasty books about Elizabeth Taylor, Frank Sinatra, And Frank Sinatra was one of my dad's best friends. My father was the godfather to his son, Frankie Jr. So Frank called my father.

And it's your story. And, you know, put pressure on him to tell his son-in-law not to have Kitty Kelly on the program. And Danny, her father, said, no. You know, it was much later I learned this. And I thought, wow, that's He thought more of Phil than Phil's integrity than he did of his friend

who's saying, help me out here. I don't want, you know, just get her off the show and he said, I can't do that. Yeah. Oh, bye-bye, sweetheart. We love you. Our house guests are leaving. It's so fun to,

it's always so fun when we interview couples to see how the dynamic is between the husband and wife and the two. And certainly this has been no, exception. I'm not going to lie, Phil, coming into this, I thought talk show hosts, he's going to, you know, steal the mic, but then Marlowe, you know, you both have such a good balance and you let each other, you know, have their own space. I appreciate that. I will say we ask one question of every couple

that we interview. And I'm most interested to hear what you guys are going to say. You guys have filled this entire interview with some of the best advice. But if you were to look back on your 41 years of marriage and 45 years of knowing each other, 44 years of knowing each other. What is the one piece of advice, the best piece that you have either been given or would give about relationships? Oh, gosh. One piece of advice. Marley, you've given so many, so I'm curious.

Yeah. Well, what do you think, Chief? Well, thanks for throwing the balls to me. I think, you know, kick that can down the road. Don't make everything a solemn high mass, you know, move beyond it. Whatever is troubling you at the moment is not going to change the orbits of the stars or the earth, and you're going to move forward. You're going to feel a lot less emotional about this tomorrow.

right than you do tonight or today and you know a lot of people told us enough people said this that it it even it stuck even in my brain and you are not going to change each other you are not going to do that and when we were first together I would say the first 20 years of our marriage we fought every time we traveled because I take way too much luggage and I will admit it. I take too much luggage, but I can't help it. I simply cannot decide when we're leaving. I know I need six pairs of shoes. I don't know why, but I got to have this pair for this, and this pair is like fun and sexy at this pair. This piece is for cobblestones. This pair is if I wouldn't need water. You know, I got all these shoes. And he would fight with me and carry on

the whole time in the car on the way to the airport. He would be saying that the driver, you realize that this we're going away for like 10 days and we have six suitcases and the tips I mean before we got on the plane I was out of money and then we get to the baggage guy who could care less and Phil would say to the baggage guy do you believe all these bags and we're going away for 10 days and he did it and he did it and he did it and he would make himself miserable and then I was miserable the whole day in the way in the plane and then one One day, sometime 20 years ago, I don't even remember, he stopped doing that. He finally said, what did you say?

You told me, you said what? You said, I know, this is crazy. I can't get her something. Yeah, I knew that I was not going to change this thing that was making me crazy. So I kicked that can down the road. I finally moved on to worry about something else. And I think that is probably the best advice. you are not going to change each other.

So accommodate it. I mean, unless it hurts you, unless it's hurting you, you know, let it go. And what's her name, Viola Davis said, she said, your marriage doesn't start when you walk down the aisle. Your marriage starts when you're sitting across from your spouse at breakfast. And he does this thing that you really can't stand. And you think to yourself, I am not going to be able to live with this. And then you say to yourself, hey, I'm going to have to live. with this. This is who he is. I love him. I'm going to have to take this into. And that's

the truth. Because otherwise, it's just a fight all the time because he is not you. You are not him. And it's never going to switch where he is you and you're him. And it's never going to switch. I think that's the best advice. I love that. That's gold. Phil, a professional question for you. How do you compare podcasting to your talk show? Do you enjoy it? Well, this is easier because I'm with herself here. You know, I mean, you know, when you're alone, you've got to, you know, and you're juggling, you've got to catch all the balls in yourself. So this is a lot easier because I'm with Miss Chattie Kathy here, who never runs out of

something to say. Okay. Hey, well, we so enjoyed our 53 minutes with you. I wish we had more time. I know you guys have a wealth of knowledge and if you listening would like to get more of that knowledge, you can purchase their book called What Makes a Marriage Last. The paperback just came out. It's on Amazon. We will link that down below. And also their podcast called Double Date is out anywhere you listen to podcast. So I would be honored. If you guys are ever in Nashville, we would love to host you. And likewise, you know, we would love to continue

the relationship. So thank you so much for the time. And it was a pleasure to meet both of you. Thank you. I hope we were helpful. Hang in there. You're both so cute. I really hope you hang in there together. Thank you. Thank you. It's truly great, great to hear all of your advice. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Bye, bye, guys.