Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 85 Laura Heck and Zach Brittle

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Laura and Zach have a research-based approach to relationships. Join us in our conversation with them on red flags in marriages, if marriage is worth saving and what single people should be looking for in a spouse. We learned SO much and know you will too! Here are a few topics that we cover: 0:00 introduction 4:00 what is the Gottman Institute? 8:20 the most common piece of advice for couples 12:36 why is marriage worth saving? 15:45 advice for single people searching for a spouse 25:35 separating the identity of being parents vs being married 31:28 the four horsemen of the apocalypse 34:40 defensiveness 41:52 strategies for dealing with conflict 47:07 practicing emotional intelligence  1:03:03 importance of switching things up during a rut You can follow them on Instagram here ▶ https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/ The Gottman Institute’s website here ▶ https://www.gottman.com ANDD....WE ARE GOING ON TOUR!! Check out the link below to see if we are coming to a city near you in 2022! Click here to get your tickets now ▶ https://www.couplethingspod.com/ We are sponsored by these companies that we love. Check them out below: SlingTV ▶ Go to slingtv.com/EASTFAM to sign up now and get your first month for just $10!  Bite ▶ Go to trybite.com/EASTFAM or use code EASTFAM at checkout to get 20% off your first subscription order! If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more. Follow us on Instagram to keep the conversation going at https://www.instagram.com/couplething... And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail]. Subscribe for more! http://bit.ly/3rnOdNo Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In about 20 years, your adult children are going to be sitting in front of a therapist, and the therapist is going to say, tell me about your parents. What did they teach you about marriage? What do they teach you about respect? Right now, you have an opportunity to shape their answer because they're going to say words. Why is it worth saving? Because of those words. What's up, everybody?

Welcome back to a couple things. What's Sean and Andrew? A podcast all about couples. And the things they go through. Today, we have from the Gottman Instinct. Laura Heck and Zach Brittle, who are licensed family and marriage therapist and counselor. I'm really excited. We keep reiterating over and over again on the show that we love sharing with you guys our experiences, our relationship, and how we get through things. But we are by

no means professionals or know what we are doing. So we brought in the professionals for you. Yeah. We like bringing on people who are qualified to actually give advice. And that's what Laura and Zach are here to do. They are certified by the Gottman Institute, which is an institute that has been doing research for dozens of years with thousands of couples. And you may have heard of a couple different research that they've done. They are well known for the four horsemen, which are like the four kind of early detection signs of unhealthy relationships. And also for the book, the seven principles of making marriage work. So it's a couple, the Gottman Institute, Dr. John Gottman, the doctors Gottman started the Gottman Institute. Yes. But we're very glad that Zach and Laura, who are Gottman

certified came to join us. And we talked about a lot of different things, including why marriage is a cool form of relationship. And why relationship can be worth saving a lot of massive red flags within a relationship and kind of how to work through that. We actually went through kind of a live counseling session towards the end that was very beneficial. I actually asked them after our interview was over if they were taking on new clients because I liked them so much. Yeah. And they said they are not. So they're actually doing a workshop, though. And a couple of weeks, we'll link information to that down below. So check that out if you're interested.

And also, I want to tease next week's episode because this episode did inspire us to do a full show where we do counseling together. Yeah, we did a live therapy session with the shrink chicks who are awesome. Yeah. Again, we love therapy, whether you're in need of it, like you have an issue or if you're just wanting to work through communication, I think it's always very healthy and very encouraging and a good thing to do. no matter what. Yes. So thank you to Zach and Laura for joining us today.

If you want to hear more from them and you enjoyed this episode, they actually have a podcast of their own called Marriage Therapy Radio. So we'll link that down below. And before jump into it, do want to let you know that this podcast can be found on all the different platforms, including YouTube. We do a video form, which is really fun.

So you can join us over there. And wherever you listen to the podcast, please subscribe to it and give it a rating. We really appreciate that. So without further ado. Let's jump in with Laura and Zach. Zach Brittle, Laura Heck. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.

We secured this interview through the Gottman Institute, which I would love to hear you explain what the Gottman Institute is and how important it is in the marriage landscape today. We're going to probably talk over each other, not because, well, mostly because we think, I think I'm smarter than Zach. Zach think that's part of, but. Well, just for clarity. Yeah. So our stick, just our stick.

Okay, here's the deal. We host a podcast together. it's called marriage therapy radio we are married but not to each other we are both certified gotman therapist we've spent about four years kind of in each other's space and so we're kind of like brother and sister we spend a lot of time kind of interrupting each other stepping on each other making fun of each other and so a lot of people when we get reviews or whatever they're like zacks mean or laura doesn't listen or whatever and all of that is true and it's kind of just the way we've learned to be in relationship so that's said we're

happy to describe anything that you that you want but yeah we'll probably interrupt each other and i might be mean and laura laura doesn't really listen sometimes so okay all right so okay here's here's what's up with the gotman institute is that the gotman institute was is really it's founded by doctors john and julie gotman they're a married married duo dr gotman is world renowned relationship researcher he has mr doctor gotman yeah mr john gotman there's two doctors got there's two doctors gotman yeah so that's true yes john gotman julie gotman Okay. So he's done over 40 years of research with couples with over 4,000 couples. And he's studied relationships in a way that has never really before been done where he was really studying

relationships in like a laboratory setting, which gave a lot of amazing information that is now really like the founding research that all other couples therapists are using around the world. You cannot get through a book or an article or any sort of relationship advice without stumbling upon the findings that Dr. Gottman found over the last 40 years. So the relationship Institute, the Gottman Institute is really a place where you can find resources for couples. You can train other therapists, which both Zach and I have been trained as certified Gottman therapists. They host workshops. So the art and science of love is an amazing workshop. Actually, Zach and I are going to be teaching it this month, which is pretty cool. Yeah, pretty exciting

about that. So the Institute continues to do research. And we'll talk. about some of the findings because I think it's pretty important to be able to ground your relationship not just on an opinion of what somebody was able to do in their relationship, but really figure out like what does relationship research have to say about it. That's good. The cool thing too about John is John Gottman is like John Julie, but John will describe himself as a mathematician or researcher. Like he, that's, that's who he is. And he met Julie, who is much more of an empath. She's like really great at sort of communication and

and trying to figure out how to reach people's hearts and souls. And the joke that he'll tell is he just had all this research and he was happy. He's like, I got math. I know how to do all this stuff. And she wanted to help people. And he didn't really want to help people. But then they compromised and decided to help people. Yeah.

Sounds about right. Yep. That's kind of how it goes. And so, yeah, they've just built this. The Institute helps couples and it also trains therapists. And so that's kind of the two-pronged approach that they, that they're bringing to the table. And then we use the methodology that comes out of the research. to sit down with actual couples in our offices and kind of walk them through, you know,

what science says about relationships. Yeah, oh, yeah, that's it. He's more the scientist. She's more the artist. I guess that's good. Here's why we're excited to talk to you. We decided to embark in the YouTube world and stumbled into like sharing about our dating and marriage and family life. And now it's turned into people want advice from us. And we try our hard we try our hardest not to because we are not qualified and we say that probably not every episode but we try to at least every other and so you guys are actually professionals at this and we can ask you advice and the good thing is is it's research base so yeah that's why we're pumped to have you and i i have to caveat every single time my wife i've been married 24 years to my wife she doesn't

listen to the podcast anymore because her experience was like yeah you you you don't do that stuff that you say that's not really you. So I have to caveat all the time by saying that professional expertise is not the same as personal mastery. So I like that a lot. That's good. That is really good. Laura though, her marriage is airtight. She's got it down. So if you want to know who's like who's who's practicing what they're preaching, that's right. Mostly because it's my husband. It's not because of me. He's way more emotionally intelligent than I am. I just show up and take he takes the rain. So yeah. Is there is there any like this is very stereotypical, but everybody says like don't marry a therapist. Do you guys ever like find that within your marriages that

you end up like analyzing your spouse more than you do? No, I would say don't become best friends with your therapist. Like I'm not, I don't think it's great that Zach and I are are good buddies. I mean, I think that that can get tough. But in, um, I dig it. I think it's great to have be married to me. It's not great that we're friends. I don't understand. Well, it's two therapists being friends. It struggles sometimes. Well, yeah. Okay. That's fair. What's the most common question you find from couples? Like, what's the go-to, like, I guess, piece of advice or complaint? Yeah, or complaint.

What do you think, Zach? I think the thing right now that people are talking about a lot is this idea of feeling, like, we just feel like roommates. Like, we're just kind of going through the motions. COVID has really done that to people. Like, we used to have these really clean rhythms of, like, being able to come and go throughout our day. And, like, I could miss you. you would go away and then you would come back and I missed you during the day. But now I don't really, I don't really miss you because you're here all the time. And I think that that without the

skills and even just the anticipation, people dropped into these really kind of boring rhythms. And a lot of what I'm seeing in my office right now is we're, we're just sick of each other. Like, it's just there's no fun. There's no intimacy. There's no. There's like no novelty. We're snippy about everything all the time. And that is, that's really real for people, you know. So sounds like the The first couple months of having a child, too. Yeah. Well, how long have you guys been married? Six years.

Five and a half. Five and a half. All right. I'm going to blow your mind. Ready for this? I'm going to blow your mind. This idea that 50% of marriage is ended in divorce, it's actually, it's pretty popular idea, but it's actually most of us in the industry don't agree.

That number is too high. That 50% is probably too high. But what we do know is that most marriages that end in divorce, they end inside of seven years. It's most common around year four. And there's usually a toddler in the mix. And it's because of all the things that you guys are living and doing right now. It's because it's crazy and hectic and this isn't what you signed up for and our friendship isn't working and sex isn't the same. And like all of that stuff piles up on people.

And until they learn how to kind of weather the curve, a lot of people bail. And I think what's cool about me getting to tell people that is I'm usually telling people who are asking for help. The thing that those people who are divorcing don't do is ask for help. And so when you do, that's, I think it's a really cool skill. And sometimes that's asking for help from YouTube, and sometimes it's a therapist. And sometimes it's, you know, your mom's group at, but, but yeah, that little list that you just ripped through is like, hit me pretty. I mean, that was kind of what we're living right now. Yeah.

But is your, is your response and advice to that problem to ask for help? Is that the, is that the answer? Yeah. So the thing interesting, too, like we're going to, we're going to share a whole bunch of research with you because this isn't like our own opinion. this is really what what the Gottman Institute has to offer is this like breadth of research but most couples if they're divorcing within the seven year mark most couples are not seeking therapy until year six so they're really waiting like those problems are kind of just like stewing and brewing over six years and then that's when they come in for help and so yeah I think when we get

couples in our office it's usually after a lot of resentment has built up a lot of bad habits and bad patterns and that's really what we're trying to do is just kind of like rewind a little bit and get them into a healthier spot. So you guys are, you're in year six five, six. Six years. In year six. Yeah, we're five and a half years. Wait, hold on. You got engaged. You knew each other 30. What? I'm confused by this math. I can't do math. We're in year six. We're in, we're halfway through our six year of marriage. Is that what you're thinking? No, we haven't hit six years. We're halfway through the sixth year. Am I saying that right?

Like your baby. Your baby is halfway due its first year before it has its first birthday. Oh my gosh. All I know is we're coming up on our sixth anniversary in April. But we dated for two years. So he's been married for five and a half years. I got this. I got you.

There you go. Dated for two. We're engaged for nine months. Been married five and a half. And we have an almost two year old and a two month year. A two month old. Yeah. Almost two. Do you have two in diapers right now?

We do. Oh, yeah. Holy moly. Yeah. We struggled to get pregnant with our first. And so we figured we would struggle to get pregnant with our second. And we got pregnant on the first try. Yeah.

Oh, man. I always love to ask lots of questions about that process. But I'm going to go ahead and leave that to the mystery. But I can explain it to you, Laura. I mean, here's a high level question, though. And I think it's worth asking, why is marriage something that's worth saving? It's interesting. I mean, I think a lot of people, I mean, I'm kind of curious, Zach, what you would say about this.

But do you feel like people are giving up faster or sooner? I think so. I mean, I think we live in a world right now where the stigma of divorce isn't as high. And people, you know, have more options available to them. And sometimes they are wiser, kind of about the cost, benefit analysis. And, and you know, Andrew, I don't know if this is the right answer, but I'm not sure it is. You know, some marriages aren't necessarily worth saving because they, they really don't allow you to be your best self. And I'm not pro. I'm not pro ending marriage at all. What I'm saying

is if a marriage doesn't help you become a better version of yourself, then it's probably really worth asking the question of whether or not it's worth saving. And I also think most of, most marriages can help you become the best version of yourself and that and what what what needs to happen in that case is that people need to have a plan right they need to have a plan they need to have a why that's a big business like cliche right now what's your why but when you become clear about your why then you can and you you gain access to a plan then it can become it can just become fun it's an it can become an adventure it can become rewarding I mean here's here's a thing I play this trick on my clients all the time and I'll play it to you right now your children

they're two and two and a month two and a half months or whatever in about 20 years your adult children are going to be sitting in front of a therapist and the therapist is going to say tell me about your parents what was their relationship like what was it like growing up in their house what did they teach you about marriage what did they teach you about respect what do they teach you about conflict and you know right now you have an opportunity to shape their answer because they're going to say words words are going to come out of their mouth and and you know you you You have an opportunity right now to say, why is it worth saving? Because of those words, right?

Those words could be really powerful and good and maybe change the world, which I think is worth investing in for sure. Well, we're huge fans of marriage. And every time I hear like these, you know, self-improvement gurus or a self-help speaker, everything, all the concepts they're talking about, I feel like are best represented in marriage like you know disciplines and long-term thinking and like all there's a whole list we could go through and marriage is i think a unique context to experience all those things in uh so i don't know but i think the other side of that though is you we are lucky to be in a marriage where we both

believe that where it's it's worth saving for us it's worth working for it's worth we do feel like we bring out the better side or we try to challenge you each other to bring out the better side of each other. But given how many people you guys have worked with and how many couples you've worked with, is there a piece of advice you would give to single people going, searching for marriage, searching for a spouse that sets them up for a successful marriage? So that later on down the road, they're not in a marriage where you're sitting in front of a therapist and saying, I don't know if this is worth saving because it's not for the

better of both of you. I think, Laura, you have a really good answer to this. If I think, if it is what I think it is, then I think you're the best person to answer this question. Yeah, I love that you think you know how I'm going to respond. Um, my biggest piece. And it's funny because my, my little sister is like out there right now in the dating world. And, you know, she shared with me, she's like, yeah, I went on my third date and we decided we're going to delete our apps. And I was like, no, don't delete your apps. But, um, part of me wants her to date a lot to be able to, you know, like, meet that person and experience, like, what different type of conflict looks like in different relationships and how, like, your family of origins influence how you

show up. But the number one reason why I was pumped was because I know that she has done the work to show up as her best self and figure out who she is before she gets into a relationship. I don't know if you thought that was what I was going to say, Zach, but. Yeah, it's not. I'm a huge, like, um, advocate. of knowing who you are so that when you do get in a relationship, you can communicate about your wants, your needs, your desires. And if you don't know what those are for yourself, because you haven't, A, you know, been by yourself for a while,

experienced life, dated other people, you're not going to really understand what those things are. You're just kind of going to melt into the relationship. And I think a healthy relationship is two individuals that are sort of coexisting and have decided that they're going to do life together. But you have to be an individual first before you can become a partner. shit. So I mean, my biggest piece. Well, we got to hear what Zach's. Okay. Well, I'll say two things. One is a hundred percent endorse that answer. I think, yeah, absolutely you need to like do your own personal

work. I mean, the people who struggle in my office, a lot of what we try to do, what I try to do anyway first is help them take responsibility for their own stuff. Like if they are defensive or if they are critical, like that's the starting point. Like you got to, you got to rein that in. And that's actually maybe a good segue to this piece of the research that's pretty relevant around divorce. But what I thought you were going to say, Laura, is Laura, Lauren and her husband are really good friends. And she talks a lot about how the basis of their origin story is that she married her best friend. Like she, they cultivated a very solid, just like camaraderie and regard and sort of playfulness that I think survives today. I got to spend a few days at their

house last month. So if I'm a single person and I'm looking to figure out who to like how to be in a relationship with someone long term a i got to get my own house in order right like take care of my own stuff but b like don't don't knock like oh this person is we're really good friends but i'm not attracted them or this is a really good friend but you know i think of them like a brother like those people they stick around like that is you know my i have two daughters and right now my my wife's all about having them date the nerds like date the nerd date the theater date the computer geek like those guys are the ones that end up being you know the awesome as i talked to two professional athletes i was a theater kid i was a theater kid

yeah yeah right on you were you were kind of a nerd when we started dating i'm not going to lie in a professional athlete since he was a nerd um i was going to say i think her point is around like don't chase the guy the people who seem like they have it all yes right because maybe they haven't done the work of actually suffering through relationships and figuring out how to be kind and be humble, you know, like, so I don't know, it's a stereotype, but that's what, that's what my wife's training our girls to do. Isn't that crazy that people don't figure out how to be kind? Like, just skipped over that part of life. Yeah. Anyway, it took me 30 years. Really? Yeah. He's still not kind. Um, I was going to say, Laura, that one, something you said kind of hit home for Andrew and I,

when we started dating, we had both come off of relationships where we openly talk. We openly about this in like the first week that we dated that we felt like we were changing who we were for the other people so much so that we weren't ourselves anymore and within the first week of dating we're like you know what I'm just going to be me and if this works it works and if it doesn't we're going to go separate ways but we got so tired of of camouflaging ourselves so the other person liked us that it was exhausting and it was so freeing to get into a relationship and be like take it or leave it yeah we both And Laura and I both have a professional crust on a woman named Logan Yuri, who is kind of, she wrote a book called How to Not Die Alone. It's four people who are dating right now. And we got to talk to her on our podcast. And she's just doing really great work and a lot of clever insights. But one thing that she said recently that kind of blew my mind was this idea of when you go out with your friends. Like let's say Sean is going out with her new boyfriend and the three of us are with her. And she's done. And she says, hey, what did you think of my new this date? What do you think about this guy? Logan's like, that's not the right question.

the right question is what did you think of me with this guy those of us the three of us who love you really well and we already know you like did we sit there and watch you transform into another person or did we watch you go no you came out like that guy totally brought out the best like he he sort of made you shine like I think that's a really interesting observational question for your single friends maybe who are listening and trying to figure out like I really like is this the right fit for me yeah that's good my thought was Zach I liked your answer to marriage because I think I think there is an effect of becoming your best self.

But I almost viewed as like a derivative effect of like, hey, if I, the goal of me marrying Sean is not like, hey, let's bring out the dopest version of Andrew. I guess it is. I don't know. That's interesting to think about. No, like if you really think about why did I marry you, it's interesting. To bring out the dope as part of myself a whole. But it's not like, it's ultimately not for my personal gain, right?

It's like, oh, it's a derivative and sex. secondary effect of me committing to the relationship. I don't know. That was my initial thoughts. I married you because I like you, but I married you because I like me when I'm with you. That's cool. Yeah. I think ultimately when people like walk away from an experience or a date or whatever it might be, when you walk away and you're like, dang, I feel really good about myself when I'm with you, that's where you start to say, I want to replicate that experience as much as possible. But does that road end at a certain point? Because like when you're parenting, I don't feel good. It does.

The reason that you, the reason that you guys are struggling and the reason that people kind of have a hard time weathering that toddler phase, especially, is that the friendship takes a dive, right? Like the friendship goes away because we're not going on dates regularly. We're not getting enough sleep. We're not getting, you know, we have this other person who we love and who's amazing that wants our attention. And so we give them that attention. And they make us feel love. And so why would I, why would I turn to you when I can turn to this snugly, you know, warm, cuddly thing that needs all, you know, dopamine hit all the time, snuggling. I mean, that's really it, right? The, the antidote sort of weathering that, that phase. And I think

phase is a really important word for marriages. Like, there's lots of phases, right? I've been married 24 years and I think we've been through four different marriages, maybe five at this point. Like, it's really important to represent, to recognize that you're just going through a moment. But But this phase that a lot of people are in, and it's kind of that four to six range, four to seven range, the friendship needs attention because it's not novel and fun and, you know, interesting anymore. And that's a big part of, you know, what the research reveals is that maintaining the friendship in specific ways sets you up for the rest, right?

Like I don't tend to argue about like petty stuff with people that I love and trust and that I feel like or fond of me. But I will argue with you if I don't think that you like me very much. I'll argue with you about the dishwasher. And I'll go to war over it. That sounds familiar. A conversation that we have a lot lately in this phase because we remember having it with our daughter after she was born.

The difference of identity that you take on as mom and dad. And something that we talk about a lot is we get very tired of just being mom and dad to each other and not husband and wife. And at the end of the day, I'll be like, I want you to see me as your wife and not just the mother of your children. And the compliments are wonderful of like, you're such a good mom and stuff. But at the end of the day, since that friendship kind of takes a toll, all you want to hear is like, I love that you're my husband. I'm attracted to you as my husband and not just a father. So that's something that we work through. Well, actually, Sean, I think you're actually really good at that.

I, like I said, I watched a handful of your videos and you're, you're very good at letting Andrew know that you love him and that you're interested in him and you're, like, I think that that's a, if I were to, if I were assessing, you know, yes, please. I would say, yeah, that's an area of strength, apparently, at least that's, that's hardwired into you. And, and that's good to know, right? Like, maybe that's even easy for you. And maybe it's not as easy for a man or for Andrew or for me or whatever. But learning how to do that stuff and almost inventorying, like what works. So for example, maybe Andrew hates it when you, he doesn't,

but maybe he hates it when you say, I love you and put your hand on this. Like maybe that's a problem, but he loves it when you make him coffee. Like learning how to make the coffee, even though it's easy for me to say, I love you, that's actually also a sign of love, right?

It's kind of going out of a way to speak your language, which I think, you know, why wouldn't you do the thing that you're good at? Well, because sometimes it doesn't land for your partner. And so you have to learn how to do the thing that they need, which is but i push it Zach i push it like even a little further of maybe not just husband and wife but i have made a point that whenever i'm with somebody or i'm talking about my husband i refer to him as my lover it's just this switch in the way that i talk about him like do you ever notice that when you're

you know like talking to your daughter and you're like calling him dad and even when they're not around you're calling him dad he is not your dad like he is your lover he's your intimate partner and i think that the language that you use starts to settle in when you're like, yeah, this is, this is my, my lover and people look at you kind of funny. But I think it's just a good way to shift it in your mind. And then the other piece is that there's a difference between adoration and appreciation. And I think especially right now, there's a lot of maybe appreciation that you're referring to of like, hey, thanks so much for, you know, like getting up last night with the baby. Thanks so much for taking the garbage out. This is all appreciation of things that your

partner does for you. But you didn't marry Andrew because of the things he does for you. You married Andrew because of the person that he is. That's adoration. And if we can continue to verbalize, like, I love you because you're incredibly generous. And here's how you showed up being generous in the last week that I just like took my breath away. That's adoration. I think that it does, it goes a lot further in relationships when you're trying to get that spark back, especially if you're kind of like tired or you're falling into roommate syndrome is lean on adoration more than appreciation. I had a thought of something I recently read from actually he was a rabbi.

Rabbi Lapin. And it kind of talks about what you just discussed and also how I actually feel about the purpose of marriage. He says he breaks down the parent-child relationship and how oftentimes selfless acts create more adoration from the giver of the acts than the receiver. So like the parents are oftentimes more committed to that relationship than the children are. Like if you look at when kids grow up, it's like there's a lesser degree of commitment there. And that's where I feel like I can feel the best about myself if I'm most selfless. And that ultimately achieves that goal. So anyway,

that's actually happening to you physiologically. It's not just emotional. It's like actually happening in your body generally when we well it's and the reverse is also true when we when we demonstrate contempt for others it generates stress hormones inside of our body and it also generates stress hormones inside of our partner when we generate gratitude and appreciation and fondness it reduce it generates stress reducing hormones inside of our body and it and it does that for our partners too so contempt i use that word on purpose it's for example one of what the research revealed this the four horsemen of the apocalypse so they're sort of four things that are divorced predictors I guess contempt is one of them and contempt is basically you know whenever you're sort of spend

time looking down in your partner and it's the most toxic because it's physiologically the worst for you like it actually affects your body not just the not just the tone of the relationship it got to the point too where they were like Andrew if you were contemptuous um if you were contemptuous of Sean, then Sean would be much more susceptible to communicable diseases. Like, it starts to erode away her actual immune system functioning, which is crazy. So, like, you ask the reason, like, why are we in marriages? Like, what's the point? If you're in a healthy relationship, it actually shows that, like, you are going to be

healthier, Andrew, because you have a partner that is also like nurturing and taking care of you. But if you're in a bad relationship, it's actually eroding away your physical health. Wow. You're actually going to live longer. You're going to live longer. Married people live longer. Wait, I just read an article.

It might have been from the Gottman Institute about how the biggest indicator of five major health conditions, like heart disease and I don't know, there's four other ones, is a bad relationship. I think it was directly with your father, or maybe it was talking about like any bad toxic relationship in your life. But it's like, what? I've seen a piece of that for sure.

That's crazy. I know the Gottman Institute is super well known for the four horsemen. Can you talk about those and what they are? Yeah. Yeah. So just like kind of rattling them off. So there's there's really these like four behaviors that Dr. Gottman was able to take a look at. So he was able to look at groups of people of couples. And he sort of labeled one group, the masters of relationships. And these are going to be the folks that are married and relatively happy. I mean, the bar was fairly low. But

then you have the disasters of relationships. And these are people who were either married and really unhappy or their relationships dissolved over time. And he, he looked at, you know, what are the common factors in these relationships that eroded over time? And he really identified these four particular behaviors. So we have criticism, defensiveness. And those are usually married. Like if one of you, and I'm kind of curious from each of you as we're talking about the four horsemen, like what shows up in your relationship. Um, because we all have. Here goes the other 50%. It's right now. We all have, uh, these behaviors in our relationships. And so generally a criticizer is generally married to a defensive human being. It's just sort of the law of the land,

the nature of how it goes. Or they draw it out in each other. Exactly. Yeah. So you have criticism and defensiveness and then you have stonewalling and then contempt, which is what Zach just talked about. Are those married too? Not usually. You will find well, I mean, gosh, not as often as criticism and defensiveness to be honest. Like those ones are and actually they show up in just about every relationship. So we all have all of them. Exactly. It's not that it's not that they're present.

That's the problem. It's that they're present and uncorrected or unchecked. You know, that's the thing. But I think, Andrew, I think if I remember correctly, women tend to be critical and contemptuous. Men tend to be defensive and stonewalling. So that sounds right. Sounds right.

You nailed it. Yeah. The deal with criticism is that it's really just, we need to have, a relationship where you can identify a problem or an issue or how I put it is, it's most often you just have a want, wish, need, or desire. And we have to be able to communicate that to our partner. And it's going to come out as a complaint. And what ends up happening with criticism is that you take a problem in the relationship,

but you make it about your partner and now it's a character defect in your partner. That's the critical nature. So that's tough because obviously if you feel like your partner is attacking you or being critical, what's the natural thing to do? It's like to defend yourself, right? And so that's where that tends to be married in relationships. So you're like nodding your head. Are you critical in the relationship from time to time? Yeah. Yes. Yes, Sean. And I'm sitting there thinking like, when is the last freaking time I brought something up to you? Like I have issues with you too, but I don't freaking talk about them. Like can we all the time, all the time. Like, but go ahead.

Yeah. Andrew, when you played football, what position did you play? Longsnapper. Oh, right on. Oh, I love long. I have a question for you. I have a long snapper friend. I was wondering if you knew him.

But anyway, we'll talk later. Okay. But, um, okay. So, so I get to talk about defensiveness. Yeah. Is that cool? Can I do that? That's my favorite.

Because I am, I'm personally defensive. Me, Zach, like, that's part of what I said. Took me 30 years. Like I, about about when I was 30, my wife was like, I can't do this like this anymore. Like, this isn't sustainable. And she was talking about that part of my. my approach to just being in a relationship. But, you know, what defensiveness generally is, is people, they tend to take the wrong

amount of responsibility. So they either take no responsibility at all, like they counterattack or they'll take 100% and they become martyrs, right? So if a defensive person is like, fine, I got it. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of this. It's not your thing, right? I guess it's always my fault, right?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can never say right. I have a lot of empathy for defensive people because it's me, right? Hold on, hold on, pause. It's like a verbatim phase that happens. I feel like I'm realizing we're both critical and defensive. Uh-huh.

So I usually start the criticism of whether it's with parenting or whether it's with like household chores or whatever. That's usually my go-to is like it starts as a complaint or a request that I don't know how to verbalize and becomes as criticism or I would guess is interpreted as criticism. him. And he'll get baseline defensive. Yeah. And then his criticism will come out. And I go, I go all in. I go martyr. She's like, yeah. Like whatever you just said, she says that. I'm sorry. Yes, I can never do it right. Whatever you say, honey. Yeah. Yeah. That's me. So here's a, here's a, I'm going to give you a like a bonus. But I think it's really good that you can name that. Right. The fact that you

can sort of map that out a little bit is really healthy because if you can map it out, we can know that it's kind of boring. That's sort of boring what you just described because you know it's going to happen happens every time. It's not interesting. It's not fun. So let's change it. Let's just change. Let's do something else. I literally was working with a couple one time. And they were kind of doing exactly that. And it was his turn to talk. And I had built this alliance with the wife. So she and I were ready. We were like ready for the next thing. And she and I stopped him. I said, Tony, stop, stop. Stop. Say anything else. We know, we know what you're going to say. Both of us already know exactly what you're in everybody in the way and he just he stopped for a second and he said do you remember

what he said laura was it cocoa puffs no it's fruity pebbles he said i really love fruity pebbles and it changed the entire tone she went huh and she laughed and giggled anyway but but back to the part about defensiveness the thing of that defensive people need to learn to do is to take anywhere from one to 99% even one percent changes the conversation right one percent is you might be right or i never thought about it that way and i think you know those of us who and i and i believe this is me right now. Those of us who are really good at being defensive, it's the reason I asked you about football because you think about really good linebackers or safeties, they're good at it because they're patient. They're good at it because they recognize the difference between a perceived

threat and an actual threat. They good at it because they study ahead of time. Like really good defensive players, they're not good at tackling. They're good at making sure you never get the ball in the first place. And so those of us who identify as defensive, part of it is just to learn how to be patient and and smart and willing to belay the impulse to tackle perhaps or counterattack long enough to go, oh, maybe there's something here that I ought to pay attention to. And when we can begin to do that, that's me taking responsibility for my stuff back to what we talked about at the beginning. And when we start to do it together, that's us protecting our relationship from those four horsemen out there, right? That's us saying we're not boring. We're not

regular. We're not normal. We're actually really good at identifying an external threat and protecting us from that. So sometimes that's the defensive person and learning to say to the criticizer, hey, I know you're unhappy. Sounds like you're trying to ask me for something. Right now I'm feeling defensive. Do you think you can just ask me a question? Because that way, maybe we'll get to the root of this. All of a sudden, we're all of a sudden we've changed the whole game. And that I think is where the Gottman method in particular gives people really clear roadmap for how to do it differently. Yeah, to do it differently. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big deal is just, it's, it's about, it's actually kind of scary.

I mean, when Dr. Gottman's book, I have it. So it's like the seven principles came out, seven principles for making marriage work. A lot of people read the first three chapters, which is all about divorce prediction. Pretty gloomy. It's pretty doom and gloom. And the whole idea with Gottman Method is, yeah, we're not, nobody's doing it right. We don't have models of how to do it right. We've come out of relationships where we weren't doing it right.

We're in a new relationship. But it's really just about interrupt. these patterns that we know are eventually going to erode away. Maybe not today, but if left unattended to for the next several years, it's going to erode away your friendship and a road away at your joy in the relationship where you stop showing up as your best self. And so it's really about just identifying those and saying, do this instead. So like Sean, you mentioned criticism. I try to bring issues up as, you know, gently as possible, but they're perceived as maybe being threatening or critical. And it's really all about like just a trick is like just start

the sentence with I rather than you. I mean, the moment you say like you, it's like pointing your finger at your partner and saying you're the problem rather than, hey, there's this thing that is not really settling well with me and it kind of makes me feel this way. And I really love it if this happened instead. That's super gentle. That's the antidote to criticism. And so it's really just about figuring out how to do it differently and do it in a gentle way. beginning is actually it's actually i feel but what it's definitely not is i feel like and it's definitely not i feel like you feel like you don't pay attention to me when i'm talking like that's not a feeling that's a that's a that's a never taking out on date so i have two questions um okay

we're probably going to go over time just so you know because i'm enjoying this one is we have tried to set this cadence of monthly checkups with the purpose purpose being on my end to have an area where I know Sean's going to criticize me. Because I feel like when we're in the moment of like the dishes being done, it's going to end in an argument. If you say you never do the dishes. And I'm like, can we not talk about it live? Right.

Yeah. Is that a thing? Yes, 100%. And it's interesting because we talk about like, let's say that the two of you are getting frisky. And Sean, I'm going to get like frisky in a good way. Frisky in a good way. Yeah. Sweet love in the bedroom and maybe things just don't since having a baby and like you don't feel the same about your body and you like of something that you used to like doesn't smell as good and sexy to you as it used to be.

So the time to talk about that sexual experience is not right after you're done and you're like, oh, that was talk about it is after the fact like when you are ready to when you're on a walk and like you like the you've got a kid on a bike, you got a kid in a stroller and you're like, hey, um about us like getting frisky that like didn't actually go well for me and here's what i was thinking would we really go better or here are the things that i really really liked that you did um and lean more into that but yeah i totally bothering you like don't talk about them in the moment make sure that you're showing up as your best self when you do take on that conversation meeting or you're like state of the union of the relationship you can prep for that you're like you know what i'm going to work out ahead of time. So I'm in a really good mood. And I'm going to make sure that I'm done with my inbox. So I'm not thinking about work. I'm going to show up to this ready for whatever

you have to bring to the table. I'm going to, I'll add something to you. And it's a little bit of a plug. But this thing that we're teaching the art and science of love, it's I think maybe it's before this podcast comes out or whatever. But it's five times a year, I think. And one of the things that I like about it is that during that event, you learn about five different conversations to have on purpose. And they have different purposes. So, for example, the first one is about stress reduction. Learn how to have a conversation for the purpose of reducing stress.

That's a really important. Sometimes we don't know how to do that because my partner says, oh, I'm stressed out. And what we say instead is, well, did you think about this? And maybe you should call and have you tried. And that's not stress reducing. That's actually stress increasing. So part of it is learning how to label the conversation. So to your point, Andrew, like, I think if there's a spot in your relationship where,

hey, I need to have a spot where on purpose, I hear about the things that are on your mind that are bothering you or that you need me to correct or redirect. Like, we can learn how to do that. And the cool thing about that is, let's say you have it once a month or once a week. And it shouldn't be like a bitch session. Like there should be really rules about it, which is cool. Yeah, we do. But here's the reality.

If Sean, for example, knows that every Sunday night, she's going to get 45 minutes of your undivided attention to talk about what's on her mind. Then on Thursday, when you do something wrong with the dishes, she doesn't have to tell you right then. She can know that I can wait till Sunday. And chances are she'll forget between Thursday and Sunday. Because the main thing is, I know that I can talk about this. And when I know that I can talk about this, maybe I don't need to.

I was going to say, I think that's actually, that actually makes a lot of sense, given the phase we're in, is I think a lot of our bickering comes because we don't know, we don't, one, get any time with each other and know when the next time is going to be. Yeah. So it's like my only shot, or you'll say something like, yeah, or you'll say something like, hey, did you, did you make that deposit at the bank? And we don't, we don't know what the rest of the, the sentences. Like, is it you lazy bum or because I just wrote a check that we need to cover or because I think the check's in my purse and I, and I hope that I didn't make that bad. If you don't know, then I just get to make up a story about why you're asking me that question.

if I'm in a bad mood, if I'm hungry, angry, lonely, you're tired. I'm just going to, like, be like, no, I'll get to it. Jesus, why are you asking me again? I told you, like, and all of a sudden it's just not, not a thing. That's hungry, angry, lonely, tired, but it's, it's halt. Are you just doing this? That was good. Yeah.

Hungry is oftentimes where I live. Yeah. Well, I mean, but here's the other thing, too, right? If you get to, if your friendship is strong and you know that your partner is doing their work, if I look across relationships, and I know that you're doing your personal work, the thing that we've talked about already. And then you snap at me. I can go, wait a second.

I'm going to, I'm going to snap back. I can be like, ah, snap back. Or I can go, hey, do you need a sandwich? Like, what's going on? This isn't you. Like, can I get you a sandwich? And I'm not, I mean, I don't mean to be trite about it. But if I can look at you and go, hey, you, your best you doesn't treat me like this.

And so maybe you need something other than me to show up and not my best me. And it might be a nap, might be a sandwich. It might be just to go for a walk without the kids. kids, like, who knows, but it's a clue, right? My partner misbehaving or acting out as a clue, not necessarily, I think. So what I say to defensive people all the time is feeling the attack isn't the same as being attacked. It's good, right?

I mean, the feeling and the response to go, maybe there's something else going on here that I need to pay attention to. Okay. People who are really good at being defensive. I have two questions. Yeah. Okay. Maybe loaded.

They're maybe loaded. To what you're just saying, Zach, patient people may be able to realize that there's something else going on there. how I feel like the the better you get to know your spouse year after year you start to you start to notice when there's something wrong and I feel like a tendency between us is we haven't even addressed it internally but we can tell we can we can feel it in each other and so when those when those rifts and those arguments start whether it's me going to him or I could say and or I know something's wrong and it's not this it's not dinner it's not the dishes it's not there's something else how do you how do you address that as a partner without it coming like what i feel like it often exactly yeah yeah yeah well okay so what you're talking about sean is emotional intelligence i mean what you're doing it's amazing it's just being able to we need less of that laura we tone that down just you guys it's good but i mean there's

another facet of emotional intelligence which is knowing yourself like being in relationship with yourself, recognizing what's going on for you, but then also being in relationship with going on for them. And, um, you know, there's something we say a lot, which is all about curiosity of just coming across in a curious nature of like, hey, and I love this phrase. I think that Brene Brown uses it a lot as therapists use it a lot. And it's the story I'm telling myself. And so you could start and just be like, hey, like the story I'm telling myself is that there's something going on for you. I think you're stressed out, but I'm not really sure. I'm just just curious, like, what is going on in your life?

But it's so interesting because then it's like, no, there's nothing wrong with me. And then she's like, oh, he's being defensive or like, uh, but I know there is. But yeah. And then it's an argument to that like. Yeah. Yeah. Well, to that though, like even that response right there was like I would label it defensive because you didn't there. If you put a pause in and you go, maybe there is something wrong with me. Doesn't mean there is. It means I hear you. I validate what you're saying. I respect that you're my partner. One of the things that's that, This is the other part that I would give you is one of the things that's really awesome about being a therapist is I get to do this stuff. Right. I get to go, no, I think you actually just said it wrong. Like that's not the right. Like, but what's built into that is consent. Like people pay me money and they come into my office and they take time out of their day to ask me to tell them what is going on. And we don't often get that consent from our partners. So Sean wants to come in and go, hey, here's what I think is going on. But you don't have consent yet. And so part of what you may need to do, do is go, hey, I have a theory. Can I test it with you? And then he gets to go, sure, test it. And then

the theory is out there. And then maybe, Andrew, you get to go, oh, yeah, maybe. I don't know. I mean, I don't feel like anything's wrong. But I mean, you know me better than anybody. So I'll check it out. Like, that could be, that could be the pivot, right? On that note, and we actually just did a live stream this morning. Someone asked this question. And Sean and Andrew are freaking terrible at this. I think it's an art. How do you transition out of an argument? Yeah. Like what's,

okay, I love you, I'm sorry. Yeah. What freaking, what, okay, you can have.

And I will also add to that. We need all of the advice. So both of the answer. I will also add to that. I'm a fighter. So like, it's hard for me to turn fighting off. Yeah.

I just like, when the gloves come out, it's like, let's do it. Let's just go. But there's a, there's a tipping point for you, Sean,

where the gloves are still on. Like there's a part of you that can stay in the conversation as your best self where you're still like gentle and you're still empathetic and you're still humorous and you still like have compassion. But so Dr. Gottman noticed that there really is like a tipping point that folks go through where you go into fight or flight where the gloves come off and you're like, we are in this. And for most people, it's right around 100 beats per minute. So like if we're exercising, our heart rate is going to go up. But our resting heart rate for most, you know, healthy average human beings is going to be like between like 50 and 70. So it's going to take a bit for your

heart rate to reach up and over 100 beats for a minute when you go into what's called diffused physiological arousal. And that's when you're like, we are on. We're in this. But the whole idea is to keep you at the point before you take out what Dr. Gottman calls repairs. He says that this is like healthy, happy relationships. And repairs are really just these like little minor adjustments that you're making in your conversation that keep you from escalating to the point where you are emotionally flooded and you're ready to take your gloves off and go to battle. There's all sorts of phrases that you could use. And you guys actually probably have a lot of repairs that you're using. And it's things like, I'm sorry, I actually use this one with Zach. Do you remember what

I said to you earlier today? I said, hey, I had a really tough time sleeping last night. And I know that I'm going to be irritable with you. And I just want to apologize in advance. It's sort of like these phrases of like, ooh, that came out wrong. Do you think maybe I could like, can I rephrase that? Or, ooh, that was like a dagger. Can you be a little more gentle with me? It's all of these little moments where you're just correcting the conversation so that it doesn't end up in a full on brawl. But if it does end up being a brawl, that's where you like do the moonwalk, exit stage left. And you're just like, I think we need to take a break. This one, this isn't going well. And anything beyond this point is just going to end up in a massive fight.

We're just, it's not going to go well. What were you going to say, Zach? I was going to have a lot. I got a lot. I know, right? Give it to us. What do you got? Here's the thing about you're a fighter.

Sure, you're a fighter, but you're also a dancer, right? Like I know this. I've watched you dance. And you know that choreography is a thing. And in fact, most combat is choreography. Most combat is not just pugilistic. Let's take the gloves off and do this. It's mostly a, it's a response and interaction.

And part of it is learning to think about your, arguments as choreography, not combat. And that means, you know, you're going to try and play each other to create something. Like, here's the thing that I think is really cool. If you do combat really well, or sorry, if you do conflict really well, what's on the other side? If you do it really well, what's on the other side? Connection. It's makeup sex, right? That's called makeup sex for a reason. So if you do it really well, what you're doing is you're sort of respecting the battle and respecting the opponent. Those of us who are combative or who are fighters, that becomes a problem. And one of the ways you can respect the battle is to realize that you're in

over your head, one or both of you are in over your head. And so the moonwalk thing, I actually prefer to what Laura did with me this morning, because what Laura did with me this morning was a very relational, self-aware in the moment thing. And it changed my brain because I was kind of getting annoyed and I was sort of, yeah, I was kind of getting annoyed. And I was sort of like, don't talk to me like this and blow a block because we do that. And then she said that. And I literally went, and that was it. The whole thing was over. But the moonwalk thing, what it does is it gives you permission to exit without having to be emotionally intelligent. And sometimes that's a hand signal. It could be a code word. In my house, we have a restaurant near our house called the Royal

Unicorn that if one of us says it in a social setting, it means I got to go to the bathroom. And what it means is for my teenage daughter in particular, you need to go to the bathroom, go to the bathroom, calm your shit down, pull it together, stop behaving like this and come back when you're ready. But it keeps me from being at the dinner table and going, hey, you're acting out. Don't do that. It's disrespectful. Blah, blah, blah. And we have a lot of cousins. So she, this is when we use it the most. I'm like, go to the bathroom. But that little tiny code interrupts the, the inertia that sometimes getting in the combat can create because it's there's no, you know, I don't know what I mean, that's why that's why boxing matches have bells, right? Like ding, dang, it's like a break. It's so interesting. Oftentimes I feel like an argument doesn't end with us unless there's tears. And it's like, once there's tears, then it's like, oh, I hug. I hug. I hug. hug you and I love you and I'm sorry and then it's we can proceed from there slowly is typically how it goes but that's really good it's Rona week now until Wednesday and the best part we're ready

to help you extend your summer you know the saying the grass is always greener on the other side well this summer make sure it's your side of the lawn head to Rona today for 5.2 kilograms of Scott's turf builder fall lawn fertilizer at only 1499 build it right build it right Build it Rona. Conditions apply. Details in store and more offers at rona.ca. And I also think like observation from our side of when we argue, I feel like when we argue,

we tend to go cold towards each other. That's the stonewall. Instead of sympathetic or empathetic of any kind, we just get colder and colder and colder. So that transition out of an argument is very hard for us. because by the time we've gotten to the end of it, we're so shut off that neither of us feel loved. So it makes it very hard for us to transition. And so I think the tears usually come from a desperation of we just want connection.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So I will say a lot. I'll say this a hundred times, like repair is more important than resolve. Repair is more important than resolve. Repair is more important than resolve. Most of us want to resolve our stuff. We want because resolution feels like the goal to us.

But again, the research revealed that about two things. thirds of what you have going on in your relationship is unresolvable. It is baked in. It is not going away. It is going to be there. It was there five years ago. It's going to be there five years from now. You know, you're never going to have some of the core hardwiring that you have. And people bang their heads against the wall forever trying to solve that stuff. I want to change you. I want to do that. Well, you're not going to. Like, it is a waste of energy and it creates more conflict than it doesn't. So if you focus on repair, meaning exactly what you said, let's make sure that we stay connected. Then you can create a new perspective about the thing that's unresolvable. So we put a

question on our Instagram page. I think it was, what's the worst marriage advice you got? Can you imagine the the number one answer? Go to bed. The worst marriage advice. What is it? Or don't go to bed angry. Exactly. Don't go to bed angry. It is terrible. It's terrible advice. Go to bed angry. And go to bed and go to bed in separate beds. This isn't Dr. Gottman's research, but I think it really makes sense of like, you know, here's the thing. I love keeping like the bedroom sacred. And that's sacred, it's a sacred space. If you're irritated and angry and you're frustrated, I wouldn't necessarily want to bring that energy into the bedroom. Like if you're just calling, you're saying like, ding, ding, ding, like, hey, we've really had a tough time.

Let's sleep on it. Let's eat on it. Let's like take a little break, get back to our best selves. And if that means that you are, you know, going to another room so that you can kind of fuel up on yourself and come back and then have that resolve to have that repair with your partner. A okay. But that is Laura Heck advice. there is be okay sleeping in another room. Well, it can actually be respectful, right? Because maybe you wake up at the morning and go, do we still need to do this? And you go, no, I just needed

I just needed to go to sleep because I was tired, right? H-A-L-T. I was tired. It's so interesting. You mentioned or you phrased something at the beginning, Zach, that I found interesting. You said, like how I do relationships, how I am in relationships. And how I am, Andrew. Well, you said, as you were Zach. But like, it is interesting this idea of like, you know, where Andrew is like a personality, but then he gets hijacked in different situations, whether it's in like marriage or like friendships or in competitive environments. And it's like just the having the ability to, someone said, be both the performer and

the audience as you're living your life of like, oh, I'm experiencing this frustration in marriage, but I need to have the self-awareness of this is, you know, what, what happened when I do like when I'm in conflict it's interesting because like you it's like we're getting hijacked by our emotions or our hunger it's like it's weird well and the psychobabble version of that is like who am I talking to? Am I talking to Andrew? Am I talking to Andy? Am I talking to A dog? I'm talking to you know like who am I talking to because those are all different people and what I want is my lover right that's I want to talk to that guy can I have that guy and maybe the answer is no I'm still distracted about work or and I just I just

woke up or I just but but you but he'll show up later he'll be here at lunch you know that if Sean knows that that she can get her lover at lunchtime then maybe she doesn't try to like force him out during breakfast you know that takes strategy though and like yeah it does it does absolutely choreography if you will yeah bring it up I I feel like I could ask a million more questions because you're hitting like every everything that we've ever argued about I'm like all the different hats that we were in a day, the toddler stuff. Yeah, it's just, it's really good. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, yeah, there's nothing new under the sun, man. People are all dealing with this stuff. It's, it's hard for everybody. And I think, again, one of the things you guys are really doing

that's adding value is giving people access to help. And even if it's just an honest conversation about, this isn't what I signed up for. Okay. Well, let's sign up for something else. And some people choose to sign up for something else, meaning I'm going to opt out of this relationship. But, But those of us who are committed to the process, you know, like I said, I've been married to the same woman four different times. And we had to like negotiate new terms as we entered new phases. And, you know, part of that is just learning how to be in the phase you're in. And then when it's time, like for example, do you guys know if you're done having children? Do you have any idea?

Maybe that's too personal the question. That is a very personal. Oh, that sounds too personal. It's okay. We can ask it a million times a day. We don't know. Yeah. We don't know.

Yeah. So, but if you did know, for example, if you're like, yep, vasectomy. all done, whatever. You're in a new phase all of a sudden, right? We're no longer growing our family. This is our family and this is the unit we're working with until, you know, they turn 18 or something. That's a different phase. The phase of still expanding your family is unknown. It's unclear. Like we don't know. Maybe we're going to have babies. Maybe we're not. Maybe we're going to try and be unsuccessful or maybe we're going to accidentally. That's a different phase. But, you know, once you can sort of label and clear the hurdles of the phases, you can behave differently. And that does take

strategy to your point, Andrew. So you mentioned, you know, we try to provide help for people. Our goal, I'll say it again, is we do not give advice because we are not professionals nor qualified to do that. That's why we do live therapy sessions. If anything, you know, maybe people listen to our conversations and they're like, wow, Sean and Andrew are really messed up and I'm glad we're not like that. And that's a win for us. That would be great. But how can people get help from from your camp if you will yeah well i mean i think first of all it's like if folks are thinking i'm not really sure like they're because oftentimes you have one partner that's like game on love their partners like begrudgingly just showing up but not really invested i think a great

entry into that would do do a couple's workshop it is like really low stakes you can sit on your couch with your with your dog and do a live virtual workshop with zach and myself it's called the art and science of love. Our next one is on October 23rd and 24th. You can find it gotman.com forward slash mTR. We'll be there. That would be awesome. We'll give you the homie hookup. How about that? Hey. Yes. So my son was going, yes, the other day. I was like that he's six years old. I love it. So that's one way. But I think, you know, if you're someone who found you through podcast through YouTube, if you're into taking an information like that, Zach and I are always, We're about, I don't know, maybe 40% information and 60% entertainment on our podcast.

Oh, I'd flip it over. You would flip it over? All right. Maybe 60% intelligent information, which is good. And so our podcast is a great place to go. It's Marriage Therapy Radio. I think a really good entry, too, is the book that I had mentioned that Dr. Gottman wrote. It's a New York Times bestseller.

It's been around for a long time, recently updated with new research, but it's called The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. And that's really just like an overview of the foundational relationship skills that every couple can integrate into their relationship. Yeah. And I would say do anything, do anything at all. It doesn't, it almost doesn't matter. If you're feeling like roommates and you're stuck, just switch it up. I mean, you can, you can subscribe to a date night in a box. You can, you know, listen to podcasts. You can try a new show. You can switch sides of the bed. I mean, shoot, you, you know, sleep on the other side of the bed tonight. just anything because part of what part of the trauma of relationships is we're just in a rut

we're in the same we're in the same thing we're telling the same stories over and over again because we have you know 500 words and you know a podcast will give you 10 more and a book will give you 30 more and you know switching sides of the bed it'll give you a few more and and then when you have more words you can tell you know a truer more textured more layered story about what's really going on you know dang that that that'd be my advice is you know do anything at all like But yes, also follow us on Instagram at the Marriage Therapy. We'll link everything that Zach and Laura just mentioned down below, including the workshop, but we should do, the plan was to do a live therapy session, kind of did it, didn't

quite, but we'll do a part too. How about that? Are you guys down for that? This was fun. And we're thankful you guys took the time to talk to us. So thank you. Yeah, thanks for helping us.