Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - 87 ShrinkChicks

Episode Date: October 20, 2021

This week we are joined by the "Shrink Chicks." They are a LMFT female duo (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists), giving their professional thoughts on marriage and relationships! Here are a few topics that we cover: 0:00 introduction 6:10 doing the work 7:45 what does it look like to fight 10:45 importance of healthy and happy relationships 14:34 how shawn and andrew's parents dealt with conflict 17:47 what a typical blow up looks like 23:35 analysis by paralysis 27:47 fear of detachment 32:02 coming up with a safe word 34:00 phrasing a response vs reaction 42:02 catering or pandering behavior 46:00 not using your tactics against your partner You can follow the Shrink Chicks on Instagram here ▶ https://www.instagram.com/shrinkchicks/?hl=en Shrink Chick’s website here ▶ www.shrinkchicks.com ANDD....WE ARE GOING ON TOUR!! Check out the link below to see if we are coming to a city near you in 2022! Click here to get your tickets now ▶ https://www.couplethingspod.com/ We are sponsored by these companies that we love. Check them out below: SlingTV ▶ Go to Sling.com/EASTFAM to sign up now and get your first month for just 10 dollars! Bite Toothpaste ▶ Go to TRYBITE.com/EASTFAM or use the code EASTFAM at checkout, to claim 20% off your first subscription order! Best Fiends ▶ Download Best Fiends for FREE today in the App Store or Google Play! If you haven’t yet, please rate Couple Things and subscribe to hear more. Follow us on Instagram to keep the conversation going at https://www.instagram.com/couplething... And if you have suggestions/recommendations for the show, send us your ideas in a video format – we might just choose yours! Email us at [e-mail]. Subscribe for more! http://bit.ly/3rnOdNo Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Twitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/ShawnJohnson Snapchat! ▶ @ShawneyJ Follow AndrewsTwitter ▶ http://www.twitter.com/AndrewDEast Follow My Instagram ▶ http://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Like the Facebook page! ▶ http://www.facebook.com/AndrewDEast Snapchat! ▶ @AndrewDEast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. We started out this whole interview thinking we were just going to ask you questions, and now we're just going to do a live therapy session. I can't wait to get into this. Yeah, well, we're excited too, Jennifer. Yay.

Oh, oh. Dang, this is like hitting home right now. Yeah, this is really good. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things with Sean and Andrew, a podcast all about couples and the things they go through. Today, I am solo, but Andrew is part of the interview. I am soloing this intro and I'm a little nervous,

but I'm really excited about who we interviewed because I think this has been maybe my favorite of all time. we interview the shrink chicks. We interviewed Jennifer and Emily, who are licensed, marriage and family therapist, and we even did a live counseling session, which was pretty crazy. To tell you a little bit about Jennifer and Emily before we get started, they are co-owners of the therapy group and co-hosts of their podcast, Shrink Chicks, where they talk all about marriage and family therapy.

We learned a lot from them. We got really intimate and vulnerable. really quick, but I did ask them at the end if they were taking on new clients because I was obsessed. I think you guys will really enjoy this. If you have any suggestions for content, categories, subjects, or people you want us to interview, please put it in the comments down below. We love that you guys follow this. Also, you can find us on any of the listening platforms that stream podcast. And remember, you can see us on YouTube as well because we film all of it. So without further ado, let's get started with the shrink chicks, Jennifer, and

and Emily. Welcome to Sean and Andrews therapy session. We're just going to get going right here. Emily and Jennifer, thank you for joining us today. We have the shrink chip. Oh my gosh. Oh, was that? Not the chips. We have the shrink chicks live with us. We do like chips. Yes. But we're pumped to be here. And we wanted to do maybe a live therapy session if you're okay with that. We're doing it. We are thrilled to be here. Jennifer and I are both licensed marriage and family therapist and sex therapist. We believe that relationships indicate your quality of life. If you are struggling in your life, we first look at your relationships. We believe that happy, healthy relationships can lead into everything beautiful. And also, we believe in thinking

generations above and generations down. So also what you do in your marriage is also going to indicate what it looks like for your children's marriages. And we think that that matters because your children and your children's children also deserve to have beautiful, long-lasting marriages and relationships. Wow. And I'm really excited. And I also think we have to break down the stigma of couples therapy in general because I think so often we believe are been taught that you go to couples therapy when there's

a problem. A punishment almost. It's like a punishment or, and what we know is that people tend to go to couple's therapy way too late. About seven years is what research tells us. always go, they're at the point where they say, listen, this is our last stitch effort. When they come in at that point, we're like, oh, seven years too late. Wow, that's seven years.

And we really go. Oh, no. I was going to say, total side story. We did like a marriage therapy session virtually the other day. And she was like, well, what's the problem? And we're like, oh, we don't have one. We're just trying to like, you know, maintenance. Maintenance.

Yes, yes. Just proactive. She was like, I've never had this. she didn't know what to talk about because our voicemails are filled with I'm calling because we're on the brink of divorce that's the number one thing what we know is preventative medicine works and we think that this is the same thing right if you're also thinking about how you're moving your body and what you're putting into your body and your sleep hygiene and all these other things also how much preventative maintenance are you doing in your marriage so it's true

most people are not coming in preventively which is what should happen How do we feel? And even the therapists are surprised when it's happening. Yeah. We've been busy putting out fires. Right. Yeah. And we're always terrified when that's happening.

Yes. You were asking one of the, you know, the things that we'll see that that will come and we'll be like, oh, that's not going to work. Yeah. And the tough thing is that one of the most important things is that both partners are willing to do the work in therapy. One of the things we see is that one partner is willing to do the work and the other one is already like one foot up door.

door. And so the ways in which couples are the most successful is when both partners are willing to put in that work, even if it's difficult or uncomfortable. And typically, couple therapy is uncomfortable. So let's make you both uncomfortable. Yes. Speaking of discomfort, Sherry's cut for this in the other session. Yeah, we started out this whole interview thinking we're just going to ask you questions and now we're just going to do a live therapy session. I do, I do want to jump into that portion of it. But I have a couple questions before we before we get uncomfortable. Well, one was, Emily, you mentioned a generational impact of having happy, healthy marriages and families. I just finished a book called the book you wish your

parents read and your kids will be glad you did. And it's like, it touches on this where, you know, approaching relationships from a healthy perspective really does have a generational impact. And like, it's something that you essentially train your kids to do. Anyway, so that was one thought. Second, Jennifer, you talked about doing the work of therapy. I want to talk about what you actually mean when you say that. I have a couple of thoughts, but I would love to hear you unpack that. And then I, sorry, I'm just hit, I'm hitting y'all with it right now. I'm curious to get your perspective on, I don't know what your background is, uh, religious or spirituality wise, but you mentioned your goal is to help people have happy marriages. And why is it do you, why is it that to you,

marriages lead to a better family life, et cetera. So those are my questions. So why don't you start out with what is doing the work? So doing the work in therapy ranges based on the couple. Everyone, you know, if we talk about the intergenerational transmission process where we're taking things that we learned in our family of origin and bringing them into our relationship, typically we end up in some sort of negative interactional cycle in our relationship, you know when you feel like, oh, we have the same fight over and over and over again. And it just shows up in different ways in your relationship. Doing the work is being able to, instead of blame your partner for that, you're looking

inward and saying, okay, what is my part in this interactional cycle? It's so much easier to go in and blame your partner, so much harder to look in the mirror and say, how am I contributing to this? and because of because of the fact that we were never taught how to communicate in our relationships for the most part and we're kind of flying by the seat of our pants taking ways that we learned how to communicate from our parents bringing them into our dynamic that we often feel like oh this is how I'm supposed to communicate this is it's supposed to work if I communicate like this and then we end up blaming our partner and so doing the work is really being able to

look at yourself and saying, what can I do differently? How can I be vulnerable with myself? Because the thing that gets tough is that when we start blaming our partner, we just continue to get stuck in that interactional cycle. That's good. So when you think about Jen started to talk about we were never taught this. Usually we learn about relationships from modeling. I can remember very directly, my mom taught me how to make a phone call. Hi, my name's Emily. My I speak to Jennifer. right like like i remember as a kid being taught the proper way yes she did right like a proper way to introduce myself but i wasn't actually directly taught here's how to comfort my partner here is how to love here's how to fight and here's how to make up myself exactly perfect example right we are taught this

through modeling and for a lot of us especially something that was really common for millennials is that something that a lot of people in the baby boomer and gen x did was like we're We just won't fight in front of our kids. The issue isn't necessarily fighting in front of your children. If you could fight fairly, go have conflict in front of your kids. Everyone is conflict. The issue is sometimes what will happen with parents is they will fight in front of their children because reactivity is high because they're being pass or aggressive because it'll come out in some way.

And then they make up behind closed doors. So a lot of our kids see how to fight and don't always see how to make up because it's not directly taught. It's taught through modeling. We always say we're a little bit more, I don't know, fearful is the word, but when couples come in and say, oh, we never fight, what we're really hearing then is that you're not communicating. There's so much more to work with when there's arguments, even if they're unhealthy, then we can say, okay, well, what are you working to try to communicate and how is it affecting your relationship? But when couples come in and say, oh, we never fight, what I'm hearing is you're not communicating at all. that's actually like a really common theme for us and the opposite is we are always so open about we argue a lot and people are like oh that's so unhealthy and we've always thought it's a good thing yeah it is a good thing right here's what we look at we're not looking at the quantity of the fights we're looking at the quality of it

there's not a magical number if you only fight five times in a year there's no like thing like that and that's what people always want to know the number one question we got right how many times should we have sex for it to be helpful like people want to know exact numbers because as human beings or like how many sessions can I have until we have a healthy relationship because we want to cling on to something we want to know we want to make it work that that's a normal thing to want to put it into a box but what we're really looking at is what does it look like when you do fight what does it look like when you disagree do you name call do you stonewall like do you like not let your partner in are you sarcastic. Are you passive aggressive? Do you shut down? Exactly. So really we're looking at

is what does the interaction interaction look like, not how often it happens. I love how much you got in each other. I can't wait to get into this. Yeah, well, we're excited too, Jennifer. Yay. We're bombed. Uh-oh. No, importance of marriage though, Emily. And then I can jump it. Yeah. Okay. So there are ways, not everyone needs relationships to feel like they have a fulfilled life. Some people are perfectly happy living on their own and just having their cats or just having friendships. There's not like a right or wrong, but for the most part, human beings wants connection. It is completely part of what is truly, if we think about the things that we need in life, food, sleep, drink, and relationships and connection. It doesn't have to be

romantic, but relationships very much matter and satisfactory fulfilling relationships. When we actually think about stress and burnout and anxiety, the antidote to that is connections and communication. So we talk about it. We're not talking about it. If it feels like it's a religious or spiritual thing for you, that's amazing. Like if it feels, you know, there are some people believe like, this is truly why I'm here on this earth is to be married couples. I think anything that matters for you is wonderful. But what we do know at a historical biological level is that human beings want to be with other human beings. They just do. This is how we're supposed to be able to connect. And so if we think about how do we put our children in a situation to be in

happy, healthy marriages, if I grew up in a family that never fought with each other, but also didn't talk about anything and also maybe had relationships that were transacted, Actional, right? Like I only, you know, my father only came home and kissed my mother if the kitchen was clean, right? Like, so like you saw these very direct, whether they were spoken or not, this is what we call as unconscious and conscious contracts. An unconscious contract might be if the kitchen is clean, then I get loved when my husband comes home, right? A conscious contract might be, hey, part of your job in our relationship is to take out the fresh, right? And I'm making it about House Joyce just because that's what I'm thinking about these go into every single dynamic. And when we have conscious and unconscious contracts, sometimes we're playing by rules that the other partner doesn't know. So all of a sudden, I'm playing a game and we're not on the same team about what are the rules here and how to best have this as a family. We can sit here, right? One of the things we know from research is that

family dinners matter. We know the children that have three to four family dinners a week end up often with less drug use, with more relationship satisfaction. Like it's this really simple thing, like family dinners, but because of that connection. And so that's what I mean, that relationships matter, whether that's romantic or platonic. Interesting. Okay. So what I'm hearing you say is relationships are a human need. Families are obviously one of the main relationships that we as humans have.

conflict is necessary in order to actually form meaningful relationships and marriage is not the only context but is a good context to which and through which to have healthy conflict to get those relationships. Okay, cool. Right on the money. Beautiful. Let's dive into it then. I'm ready. Are you? I guess so. Okay. I just want to let you know I love you. And I apologize in advance for anything. Me too. Me too. Okay. So, and we're going to give the disclaimer that they did not know that they were going to do this until about 13 seconds ago. I will see. This was on our bucket list for our show, though, is to do a live therapy session.

So, boom, we're doing it, right? Cross it off today. Okay. Great. Jen, you got, you got first question. All right. I first, first, I'm trying to think about like the speediest way to do this. Yes.

And so first I want to hear a little bit about how did each of your families handle conflict growing up? my mom is perfectionist by nature so she's there to please she's there to like make everything perfect and make everything okay so a lot of conflict in my parents house growing up was due to my mom feeling like not worthy and like a lot of um self-consciousness and insecurities that that kind of ran the household so whenever that became an issue it seemed like arguments and conflict always came up and every argument would be like a blowout. It would be like so many insecurities and so many things would just come to the surface that it would just be like a fighting match because she needed to be heard and seen.

And then my dad's side was always trying to comfort into the point where he couldn't comfort anymore and it was just kind of a blow up. So that was conflict. Okay. Okay. So my mom is the most patient woman I've ever met. and my dad is the most ambitious maybe to the point where he'll like I have this image of him we're on a family walk but he's 20 yards ahead of everybody else because he's always like you know

he's always pushing the pace and doing something so that being a little bit about them my parents argued gosh I think not often that I can remember but my dad is kind of a been till he breaks kind of guy so it would be we're cool we're cool and then he loses it right like and so that was always you know exciting times around the house whenever that happened um and then my mom would be more i think self reflective and and cry in conflict so like and maybe feel guilty for herself even though she didn't do anything so that's that's how it went it's it's interesting because although you had two very different experiences, you both have a similar theme of try, try, try, try,

and then explosion or blow up, right? So a lot of that is I try to keep it together. I try to keep it together. And it's a little bit like put air into the balloon, air into the balloon, and then eventually it pops. So I'm wondering, does that ever happen with the two of you? So we're very aware of that.

We've actually talked about it in our marriage a lot. And so we try to talk through. through every possible issue as soon as it arises, almost to the point where it's probably too much. And we get tired of it and we break and blow up. Well, that was a nice answer, but I'm also thinking about last week. I know. Yeah. So yes, that did happen. And we just had one on Friday. Whereas like, we're, you know, stress because we're in this car ride with our two kids. One of them is a newborn. Yeah. And I'm just trying to drive. And, you know, I've, I blew up and that's so happened.

Both of us did. The kids ended up being totally fine in the car ride and we were the train wreck. Yeah. The kids are angels. We were. Can I ask you guys like what does what does a typical like blow up look like between the two of you? Like how will that play out in your dynamic? A blow up will get to the point where I shut down and he hates that.

So he you will get like loud in trying to pull. something out of me yeah for we we don't have a lot of blobs I would say no a hand like three a year maybe maybe maybe three year but yeah I do I tend to when Sean is digging your heels in and not sharing anything because I'm like solution oriented I'm like hey let's work through this I'm sorry I hurt your feelings can you tell me what I can do next time to not do that or let's figure this out and then she'll be like no it's fine you're I was wrong I'm sorry don't like forget about I even brought it up and then and then that's when I get mad and just have this habit of talk to me. I feel like the blowups too usually come from.

We've both tried to communicate something so much and neither of us are hearing each other's side. And so I shut down and he gets mad. So have you ever heard the term analysis paralysis? No. O overthinking that leads to freezing, right? Which is I'm trying so hard and that's what things that happens. And that's the thing.

It's like, nobody talk about marriage is hard. It's because it's actually freaking hard. It's so hard. Right? Like, there's two people that literally do this as a living and that are experts in it and then are married. This is hard. And so one of the things is you're trying so hard to keep connecting, to keep connecting,

but it starts to also get a little bit like that Chinese finger trap where the more you pull at it, you get stuck. And so when you form into that analysis paralysis, I want you to think about a term that we also, there's a type of couples therapy called emotionally focused couples therapy it's from dr sue johnson and she talks about this interaction that keeps happening and the way we get out of this interaction where we have someone who distance or shuts down we won't say who we're talking about right now in this exact moment and we have someone who just hypothetical and everything away and then we have someone else who keeps pursuing and usually when they pursue they go from logical

and not emotional so logic how can i solve it which also is what men often do we want solution focus we want to keep going. And there's something part that logic that a woman's feeling in her feelings and a man's coming from logic that ends these two people to keep hitting heads. And it's because we start speaking two different languages. And there's something that's happening to in the interaction, right? Like when we're fighting with our partner, we go into a protective mode, like I need to protect myself. And everyone's protective mode is different. Right. So shutting down is a perfect example. Or trying to like pull something out as a another example. And so what you're seeing there is actually your reactions to a feeling in those

moments. And we're typically reacting based off the other person's reactions as opposed to getting down, well, what's going on for me in these moments? And usually you get to the point where you are, you're being so protective of yourselves that you're pushing each other away. And so my question is that it's review and you can tell me what you think about this is when you are in that interaction when you're having that reaction of either shutting down or you know trying to pull each other out of it what's underneath that what's the emotion that's coming up for you after this fight that we had last week i actually it was like two days later where i i answered that question to him and i told him i said it's weird when we get into these fights where i i get to a point where i feel exhausted

my first reaction is almost to wall up my heart and just be like just leave like i would rather you just walk away from me than me accept the fact that I'm I'm being like I'm wrong and I'm causing you to like not love me so it's always out of an insecurity of I'm I'm causing issue with us and I would rather just be like oh I don't care and you can just go so that's usually where which sounds a little bit like your mom yes yes right Apple's not too far from our perfect tree. So, Andrew, for, yeah. If that cause, if you saw that cause such conflict in your parents' relationship and

you're feeling insecure, I wonder if there's a fear of, I don't want that to play out in my own relationship. So I'm just going to shut down. Absolutely. Real quick, Emily, you mentioned analysis by paralysis. I have a deep history with that. That's, so I played football and NFL in my first, I had. zero like issues mentally and it's a pretty high pressure situation that I might they might beg

to differ or yeah I'll let you decide how bad my mental issues are but it's a pretty high pressure position that I played and then I got to the NFL and like I had nothing to distract me like in college I had school and friends and whatever whatever and I literally like analyze things I would break everything down of oh this is why I didn't do this 100% anyway ended up I've I've tried to wash that away from me, but in football, it took me like five years ultimately to like get back to where I was before that. And then the overthinking, we're doing it because we think that if we think about it enough, we'll figure out the solution.

But sometimes there isn't one, which I know none of us actually want to hear. Any of us that like control, we don't want to hear that answer. Which is really all of us. Human beings like control. It feels scary. It feels overwhelming. So it makes total sense that that overthinking, we keep doing, we keep doing, we think it's going to get us there.

But at some point, we do just freeze. And that's the paralysis of it, right? And we can see it whether it's professionally, whether it's personally. Well, I also wonder, too, that perfectionism piece that you mentioned in your family of origin, if that plays a role for you as well. Oh, a thousand percent. I'm a hundred percent of perfectionist. And if I ever feel like I'm not being like a good wife or a good mom or whatever, that crushes me and comes out in different ways.

Yeah. Well, and Andrew, you spoke to how motivated your dad was, right? And when you speak about your dad, you have so much love and respect for him. So I'm imagining you also took on some of those personality traits. Yeah, yeah. I definitely love and respect him for sure. On a side, no, this is a weird context to bring this up. but that is our hesitation with this podcast in general is like analysis by paralysis

where like sometimes we'll be talking through an issue because it's something we want to share with our audience and it's like this is not good for us to freaking talk about and try to unpack over a half hour. So anyway, I would say when we spent our week working with couples and then go home to our own partners and we're like, oh man. Yeah, I would say the emotions that I feel. yield during those fights are like sadness and frustration because like this one last week it was I know we can make it through this issue but now it's now like the fact that there's a fight

around this issue is making you shut down and now I feel frustrated and sad because I feel like this has been way overblown so I don't know if that counts but yeah it absolutely counts and I think that the most common emotion is specifically that I hear from men and husbands is frustration and feeling overwhelmed. And then this other feeling of sometimes feeling incompetent that they can't solve it because we are solution focused. So if I can't figure it out, if I can't get to you in your shutdown, I start to get more and more frustrated because I'm going in every which way to do that. Yeah. And it's like it's like this inability to communicate too. Like Sean, I don't know. I'm I would say I'm probably below

average IQ. If it's like smartness. But I just. There's this, I can't communicate and I'm trying. I'm using all the words and vocabulary I can, but I just, I can't do it in a way that makes sense, you know? Well, I wonder too, is there any anxiety for you that Sean's shutting down in those moments? Like, are you starting to feel anxious? Yeah, and that's when, that's when things really get interesting.

It's because it's like, you're not listening. Like, yeah, that's the frustration or anxiety. And that's when I get super emotional, which I typically am able to. to regulate my emotions pretty well. But when this person that I love the most is, like, disconnected, it just, it doesn't go well. There's an experiment that is done. It's called a still face experiment. And what it is, it's just so you know, for parents, it's actually a bit upsetting to watch.

You can YouTube it. I am not a parent. And it is upsetting. And so one of the things that they do is they have a mom looking at their baby that they're recording. And the baby is interacting and excited. you know how much your kid is like so hype to see you right and what they do is they have mother turn around mother stops having any type of emotional expression turns back around to baby

and doesn't give them anything back totally still face don't like all children it's it's heartbreaking you do all children do the same thing yeah stoic right okay so all children do the same thing first they reach out then they pull away then they try to reach out but in an aggressive way and then it's meltdown and we have almost the same exact idea in couples therapy i'm trying to reach you i desperately want to be with you now i pull myself away now i come back but maybe it's sarcasm or a or a side comment or the last remark or something a bit sharp and then it's meltdown and it is because when you go still face on me when you go stoic when you shut down i feel detached from you and i start going back to a childlike self that I have to protect myself or do something to get you back,

which isn't always the healthiest way to get you back, but it doesn't matter. I need you back. That makes me sad. I know. It is sad. It is. But you know what? The more you understand that part of you in those moments and not necessarily think,

well, what's my partner doing wrong, right? So we go into like, oh, God, they're being so annoying or they're being so, you know. And so instead of to be able to say, like, I feel myself shutting down right now, this is what's going on for me right now will better allow you to communicate that in those moments as opposed to have the reaction right so if you feel those feelings um and you feel yourself shutting down to be able to say like hey i feel myself shutting down right now can we table this and come back to it sometimes i'll recommend that couples come up with like some sort of safe word that is almost a signal that they'll take like 20 minutes apart and come back together and say

are you ready to talk about this? Are we ready to get back into it? And if you're not, you can take more time apart to come back in. Always recommend coming back to the conversation because then it's easy to sweep things under the rug. One of the things Emily and I love to say is that, you know, everyone gives you that advice is of don't go to bed angry. We completely disagree. Sometimes you're tired. Sometimes you're tired. You need sleep. And you know how sometimes you go to, you know, you're so angry or upset and you go to sleep and you wake up and you're like, is I even upset about. It completely changes your mood. So we always say, like, go to bed, give yourself some time, give yourself some space, and come back, allow yourself to regulate your

own emotions or really understand what you're feeling so that you can come back together to communicate it. We always say to have a response rather than a reaction is going to be the most healthy thing in your relationship. And the reaction is coming from a place of, I need to protect myself. And the response is coming from a more vulnerable, vulnerable place. So I want connection. And this is how I'm going to reach out to get it. Dang, this is, this is like hitting home right now. Yeah, it's really good. But how do we, so typically when I would ask for space, Sean would maybe interpret that as, oh, you're just trying to, it's like disrespectful to some extent. Is that where the safe word plays in? Or what's the right way to go about that conversation?

So if you come together and say, listen, we're going to use the safe word. And this is what this means. The safe word means, I love you. I want to communicate about this. I want to feel connected to you through this. But right now, my emotions are running too high and I'm going to be reactive to you. And I don't want that. So we have two tricks and secrets to do this, right? So first is called what Jen just described is stroke, stroke kick. I love you. I want this to work more than anything. And I need a break, right? Stroke, stroke, and a boundary. Now, the next thing we always want you to think about is using and instead of but, but I need time away from you as opposed to I love you. And I need a few minutes to take care of myself. I'll be back. I will reenter here.

part of things about marriages besides the tax break is the point of like that i know this person will be here for life what we're talking about is attachment when i think somebody will leave it's going to actually cause your amygdala to go a little bit on fire looking for potential sides of danger if i know that this is for life that it's through no matter what i actually can let myself take breaks because a crisis doesn't mean an emergency. Even if I'm in a crisis in my marriage, which frankly, a lot of us are during postpartum years because it's really hard, right? Even if it's a crisis doesn't mean it's an emergency and we have to act as such. And so when you think about that we are in this together no matter what, it actually creates more safety to take space to reconnect. Can I ask

if one of us is more emotional? And like, you know, Jennifer, you mentioned a reaction as opposed to response. It's like, how can I identify, hey, maybe this is emotional. Sorry, how could one of us identify, hey, maybe this is emotional and not, hypothetically. I'm not disrespecting the emotions, but I do feel like there's this understanding of, hey, this isn't necessarily like the reality, you know? So the important thing, and is that still being able to validate your partners, emotion, even if it's not your experience, that's where that's important. And the thing that we always talk about in communication, the thing that's complicated and difficult, no one teaches you how to speak like this is when you talk about your emotion, you're able to say something to the

effective. I feel really hurt or I feel this. I feel rejected. I feel abandoned. We typically instead start with you did this and that made me feel this way. And when you start with you did this, you start with you, your partner is much more likely to get defensive. It's going to be much more difficult for your partner to validate your emotions, right? But when you say, I feel this, your partner can so much more validate the emotion that just because it was, it's not your experience doesn't mean it's not their experience. What about the statement? I feel like you're disrespecting me or like I feel like you.

that's that's why i would say that's not a feeling that's a thought i'll often say to people okay you know i'll teach him this tactic and i'll be like all right so you know how are you feeling let's try this they'll be like well i feel like he's being a dick and i'm like he's being a dick we got to do a lot of education around emotions and because and you know what we were not taught this in a lot of ways if you were taught us in school you were so lucky if you're parents taught you this that was amazing but for the most part a lot of us were not taught about our emotions or what we're feeling but i have the times when i say this in couple's therapy the couple won't know what they're feeling i i will literally have them print out a feeling

to start just to point out what they're feeling so that they have the words for it and so often and i can tell you that happens all the time i'll say let's start with i feel and they'll go into i feel you yeah and i feel you is not a feeling we're going to say you over all of our cheat sheets. Yes. One of the things, don't worry, and you're going to print them out, you're going to put them on your fridge. And one of the things, we'll have to give them to your listeners.

One of the things you have to think about is also a way to say this is, I feel blank when you blank and it makes me. I feel hurts when you walk away when I'm talking to you and it makes me shut down, right? So when we can phrase it in that way, we're able to see the effects of what we do. there's a lot of times where it feels like your emotions like what are you doing like you're like this is just because you're so emotional you're so crazy you know like you're making this up but but there are even if it doesn't feel totally real or valid it's still somebody's very real emotional experience and if i can find some truth to that i can de-escalate their emotions if i can find even a little bit

of truth is something they're saying is you're right i don't understand what's happening for right now. You're right. I'm missing you. You're right. I seem to not be understanding what's happening because I do see that you're so upset and I'm not getting it. And when I can find a little bit of truth, it actually is able to de-escalate my partner's emotions down that they can take a breath and try again. Yeah, I apologize for saying that that doesn't, like emotions don't necessarily equate to reality. No, no, no. Maybe I actually really do feel that way, but it's more this frustration or it's like hey can we just chill out and actually talk about this as opposed to just being emotional you know what I'm saying but sorry I was I was gonna say it's it's crazy

to talk about emotions because I feel like there's this underlying understanding of I know what my emotions are and I'm I'm an adult dang it I can deal with them but I have been continually it's funny to have kids and realize like oh it's nap time she's upset and that's why or oh she's hungry and that's why she's upset and it's like oh my gosh I'm the same like we get so angry at each other it's like oh we just should probably eat and then we're good yeah it's like dude we're like we're not really adults in a lot of ways yeah and if you think that the times now of course also as parents we often can get exhausted and lose our patients but with our kids we're so good at this we're so good at detaching from their feelings and

realizing it's not about us when my daughter's having a complete toddler meltdown because I have to turn off the TV. I can see that that's not about me. And even if she's having big emotions, I can detach. The thing is, we often struggle to do this in our marriage, even if our partner's feelings have nothing to do with us and seem way too big for the situation, we all of a sudden we get annoyed with them and frustrated and feel like we want to reject them. But with our kids, we can sit here and say, like, oh, man, like, you're this little being that's struggling. But, like, that's kind of all of us. We're all these beings that are struggling. And we're just humans having a human experience. And I think when we see our partner upset, right,

it hurts us. We don't want our partners to be upset. It's painful to see them upset. We love them. And, you know, I think the way in which we try to fix the emotion is to rationalize it, right, to say, oh, you shouldn't feel that way because of this, this and this, when in the end, that ends up feeling very invalidating. And actually, the way to fix the emotion, I'm saying fix just because it works for the situation. It's to validate and say, I hear you. I hear what you're saying. I understand this. And if you think about like when you're really struggling with something, when you're really feeling the intensity of it, if you think about what do I need in those moments, like what would be the most helpful thing for my partner to say? That's actually something

I can ask you guys is like when you guys are struggling with something, what is what would be the most helpful thing for your partner to do or say or able how how can they be there for you in those moments i mean this entire conversation has hit home because i think it's exactly like what we struggle with i always voiced that i feel invalidated because i do that to be honest with you well and i apologize you argue you argue through you argue through logic i argue through straight emotion i always do and i just want to every time i'm saying something i'm saying i'm saying i feel this way, I just need you to say, okay. And instead, it'll be, that's when our arguments start, because it'll be like, well, yeah,

I don't even know how it usually goes. It usually just takes off. But for me, it's the validation of like, I'm sorry you're feeling that way or I see that you feel that way or whatever. It's this fine line in marriage because, like, we'll have this same argument a thousand times and she'll tell me, like, I feel, I just need you to say okay about my emotions. and I'm like at some point I don't want to like cater to this or like pandering maybe is an aggressive word but like I don't want to validate this invalid thing which again you're seeing

a lot of my flaws here but I would say what I what I look for is I really do just want to be connected so whether it's like a hug and she's like sweet and like vulnerable with me in that way where she like trusts me to even do something like a hug or like I love you then I'm good I feel like yeah and so let me ask so it's interesting right so you said the thing about catering or pandering and imagining with your daughter you've had this feeling before right if I say yes one more time or like you know like am I enabling this behavior and so these are like things that we think about, like, as human beings, like, what brings more growth? We think about it in parents. We think about it in our relationship. And I think the fear is that if I give into it,

then it will never stop. It actually just doesn't happen that way. The opposite. It's the opposite. Actually, typically, when I give in, it actually reduces it. We are not talking about behavior, growth in a toddler. We're talking about a grown person looking for your reassurance. The same way that we're looking for our partner's reassurance with a hug and with softness and sweetness, I'm often looking for their reassurance with my emotions. Am, will you, is this unconditional? Can you accept me in my darkest moment, even if I'm being quote on what crazy, I need to know that you take me as I am right here. Because that's what unconditional love is.

And for many of us, there has been conditions put on our relationships. And that's not always a bad thing, right? If somebody hits me in the face, that should be conditional. I got to go, right? If my child hits me, I have to say, I can't let you do that, right? Boundaries in relationships are good. But for many of us, there was conditions not intentionally done to hurt us in our childhood, but because that also was generational, right?

That like, all right, to know that my, for my parents liked me the most when I was happy. So then I just tried to be happy. Or my parents liked me the most when I was successful. So I kept trying to be successful. And that wasn't that our parents were trying to hurt us. It was because our parents also wanted growth and wanted us to have better than them. But one, this is one of those times that I've actually never heard of tough love working. I don't know what that is.

When is love tough? What does that mean? And do I accept my partner at their very darkest moment when they're totally logical and driving me much and when they're totally emotional and driving me nuts? If I can be seen and loved and care for at that time, I actually don't need to go there as much. And what we're witnessing, right, is a body language just switched between the two of you. Your bodies actually were a little bit farther apart while we begin this conversation. And as we started to normalize it, Andrew, you just reached your hand out to Sean to join her.

So in that moment, you wanted to say, I hear you, I love you at your deepest, darkest moments, and your brightest, highest ones. And that's what allows us to feel safe in relationships and to grow in relationships and to have more warmth and love in relationships. I have a question, and I don't know if you do, but then I would love for you to share how our audience could hear more from you.

But one thing I just have a subconscious habit of doing is say we have like a therapy session or we learn something new. and like Jennifer, you were talking about emotions and you mentioned reaction versus response. So in my mind, it's like, okay, I have this kind of tool now where I understand maybe more how Sean works. And there's a book we mention all the time,

meaning of marriage by Tim Keller. And he talks about how it's this great irony in marriage where it's this most vulnerable and intimate relationship where you know the other person better than anybody else, but that also leaves you susceptible to being injured by them. them, like, in worse ways than anybody else ever could. And I have this tendency of, like, you know, the next argument we might have, I would just pull that tool out and say, Sean, you're reacting right now and not respond.

And, like, you know what I'm saying? Use that in a sharp way. And how can couples do therapy and learn about the habits of themselves and the other person and not use that in an attacking way? That's a great question. And that goes along with the us taking responsibility for our own work, our own reaction, and our own responses. And you might very well see your partner reacting instead of responding.

But the thing about couples therapy and the thing we always say is it takes consistency and it takes work and neither of you are going to be perfect. And it is going to take time for you to really learn these things. And so to really not use that in an attacking way, because I think that so often happens, the therapy gets pulled in and it's almost like a, like a, remember what Emily said last week in session, right? I can't even imagine how many couples like pull up games, yes, but I think to hold onto yourself in those arguments to say, listen, in these arguments, it's my responsibility to say,

what can I do? What can I work on? It doesn't mean your partner is going to be perfect, but it's not your responsibility to monitor your partner in that. So let's end with two terms. The first is going to be radical responsibility, exactly what Jen just talked about. I'm going to take radical responsibility for my behavior, for the things I say, the things I do. I'm going to learn to apologize.

I'm going to learn to take ownership. And the second thing we want you to take away is curiosity. The best way to meet your partner where they're at is to be curious in knowing them, all parts of them, the parts I like and the parts I don't like. Just the way that with our kids, we try to understand all parts of them. If we have radical responsibility and accountability and curiosity, that's going to all lead to growth while also leading to nurturing. Curiosity, I like. I like that. I want to understand what this is for you. I want to understand what's happening for you. Yeah. I heard someone say, if there's conflict and you, you know,

you might in reality only be responsible for one percent of that conflict own your one percent like you have to take responsibility for that and a lot of times it's like 50 50 but you got to take responsibility so it is no matter what we contribute to our relationships yeah right and so taking that responsibility is so essential because that's what you have control over you have control over the way in which you react you respond and let me just put a caveat on this this does not apply to a of use of relationship. Oh, yeah. Yes.

But to be able to, right, and to be able to take responsibility for your part in that, that is what you have control over. So often we try to control our partner's reaction, and that's where we get in some trouble. Okay. So the main question I have is, are you guys taking new clients? We're not. But we form, we have a practice of over 25 clinicians. We built the therapy group based on our own.

own bad experiences in therapy. We really want to create a practice built with therapists who take a really down-to-earth approach and are connecting with you on a human level. So we have a practice of therapists that you can come see at the therapy group. We are not taking new clients at the moment. But we do have a podcast, shrink chicks. We have an e-course. We have a making the most of your marriage e-course if you're interested in doing our e-course and we'll do a promo code for your listeners we'll do a couple of things promo so if anyone is interested in that and it's all and it comes with pdf downloads of all this stuff we're talking about that you can literally print out we're going to send them over to you guys we're going to send them to you guys we're going to print it out

put it on your fridge and this is how you remember the same way if you're working on like learning different movement in your life and maybe you'd be like put reminders up do the same thing for your relationships if the things i got out of this was curiosity radical acceptance, respond and not react, the stroke, stroke kick, write those things down after listening to this episode, put it on your fridge, come up with a safe word, come up with your safe word, and take radical responsibility for what you want your relationship to look like because we can control that, but only if we drop. Well, we'll link all that down below. Emily, Jennifer, thank you so much for the time. We'll do a part too. This was important, so thank you.

Thank you for having us. Thank you guys. Thank you, guys. Thank you.