Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - Balancing the Mental Load & Building Intimacy

Episode Date: April 18, 2025

Today, we had the pleasure of sitting down with relationship expert, wife and mom of two- Dr. Morgan Cutlip to chat about managing the mental load in marriage for more joy, less resentment, and deeper intimacy. All topics she covers in depth in her new book, A Better Share! This conversation was both eye-opening and encouraging. We gained valuable insights on recognizing unhealthy patterns in how we carry our mental loads, how to prevent the resentment from creeping into your marriage and how to keep your marriage playful and fun despite how long it’s been! Let us know your thoughts in the comments 🙂 Love you guys! Shawn and Andrew Order Dr. Morgan Cutlip’s book ▶ CLICK HERE Check out Dr. Morgan’s resources ▶ https://drmorgancutlip.com/ Follow Dr. Morgan on Instagram! ▶ https://www.instagram.com/drmorgancut... Beam Kids is now available online at https://www.shopbeam.com/COUPLETHINGS Take advantage of our exclusive discount of up to 40% off using code COUPLETHINGS Follow our podcast Instagram ▶   / shawnandandrewpods   Subscribe to our newsletter ▶ https://www.familymade.com/newsletter Follow My Instagram ▶   / shawnjohnson   Follow My Tik Tok ▶   / shawnjohnson   Shop My LTK Page ▶ https://www.shopltk.com/explore/shawn... Like the Facebook page! ▶   / shawnjohnson   Follow Andrew’s Instagram ▶   / andrewdeast   Andrew’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@andrewdeast?l... #ShawnAndAndrewPods #BookRec #MentalLoad #Marriage #Intimacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things interviews. With Sean and Andrew. Today we have a fun one. One that Andrew just like jumped right in on Dr. Morgan Cutlip. Honestly, I'm confused. I thought we were all on the same page. You? I was impressed and I was also like, wow. I really enjoy this interview. Dr. Morgan has a great personality. She's a bunch of fun and also has some really good things to say. I do want to preface this by saying I had some revelations through this all.

but it was things I'd thought about before just heard in a new way and I think that's what she does well in her book A Better Share Let me just say ladies If you have an evening or a time Where it's just you and your husband And you can put this episode on in the background

Do it Because I literally was like I owe you doctor Because the amount of stuff She like revealed to you Was amazing So ultimately it comes down to this. What was revealed was the importance of the mutual feeling that there is a fair share of workload distributed between the couple and a feeling actually being founded on a fair share of workload.

She goes to explain in-depth mental load when it comes to women versus men. This is all stemmed from her new book, which is a better share, how couples can tackle the mental load for more fun, less resentment, and great sex. That's right. It was a phenomenal interview in one. I really think you guys are going to enjoy. Ultimately, at the end of this, I feel, I feel like an emotional white belt, emotional rookie, and all you females are like emotional black belt. I think you went up a level, though.

I think I learned a little bit. We will link down below all the information to A Better Share by Dr. Morgan Cutlip. Highly, highly recommend reading it. Well, I love listening to you guys. Oh, thank you. I've listened to quite a few episodes. Oh, thank you. Yeah, you guys are great.

Curious what you think. As a professional. I think you're doing so much right. Okay, good. Yeah. And just like your mindsets about your relationship. Welcome to the show. Dr. Morgan Cutlip.

How are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. We're going to talk about sex today. Oh. Wow. You did not.

There was like no warm up for that. He didn't warm. Yeah. Is that symbolic? Pretty much. I'm uncomfortable already. All right. If only knew how.

Out of character, that was. Oh, my gosh. You, I love to hear about your background. We'll get to the sex, but I want to hear about your background and why your perspective on this topic is unique. How did you come to write a book about this topic? Well, this book comes out of my own experience. It's like the book that I needed when my husband and I had a family.

So I have two books. One book is for moms, and that's the book that I needed as I transitioned into motherhood and just goodness with all my education all my knowledge all of my background I was completely blindsided by how much motherhood really affected me felt totally buried by it and then the second piece that I really couldn't believe was how quickly I developed irritation and resentment toward my husband after kids and it's almost like this experience of gosh did my life change and his kind of stayed the same. And so I think a lot of that had to do with the differences and responsibilities who was doing what. At the time he had, we were living in Florida for like

not even a year. And he got a job change and moved to California. So the first, our daughter's name is Effie. When she was born, those first eight months, he was in California. And I was in Florida. So it like changed our experience for sure. But we had a great relationship we do now. And I was like, man, you bug me a lot. I'm so overwhelmed. I feel on edge. And I think a lot of it had to do with just this disproportionate way we handled home and family life. And then it just started coming up more and more in conversation. I started seeing it on social media. And I was like, we have to have a new way to navigate this time because modern family life is so relentless. Andrew talks a lot about how different it is. And I even agree, being married to

someone who's not a mom and being married to someone who's a mom like me before having kids was a completely different person than me after having kids and the mental load that happens after you have kids as a mom do you think that changes a person and so you have to like go through a transition process of like getting used to the new you yeah I think you have to get used to the new you and then your partner has to make adjustments for the new you it sort of can like go to an extreme where I think the new you can become like super uptight, super anxious. The less your partner jumps in, the more you have to sort of like over exaggerate some of these just like felt responsibilities to kind of make up that gap. I think the change is so rapid because it almost literally

happens overnight when you have a kid. It's like I was good before and then the next day wake up and I'm responsible forever for keeping this person alive, all the responsibilities that come with them all the anxieties and the worries and and so it changes rapidly couples aren't usually prepared for that what I see that happens a lot too is like usually the guy notices this shift in their partner and they don't know what to do with it and maybe it's kind of scary and so they sort of create a little distance and then that distance becomes more frustrating to their partner and then we start this sort of pattern that ends up creating some pretty big issues for a lot of couples. I feel like that was something we have talked a lot about after having three

babies, which is there are so many resources and so many people who prepare you for having a kid. Literally like prepare you for leading up to the day you have a child. And then as soon as you have that kid, they're like, oh yeah, you did it. You crossed the finish line. Now it's all like, just go off and raise them now. And I remember some of our biggest frustrations were, came with like the dynamic of us after kids and it got a little longer with each kid it took a little bit more time to like get back to us yeah i remember feeling like nobody ever talked about what happens to mom and dad oh nobody prepares your relationship for that but if you look at the research i mean it's been probably a while since they've looked at this because every time they looked at it they

found the same thing which is that after kids your relationship satisfaction drops other things change like your like joy you find in life and meaning in life like that stuff shifts for the positive direction but it's a normal experience that couples are not prepared for and then men and women experience it differently so men usually have this drop in satisfaction because they feel an increased pressure to provide and because the sex life changes that's kind of where that lives and then for women it's the loss of freedom which is one that hit me real hard I don't know about you but I was like I cannot go to the bathroom without bringing contraptions in with me and then the other is the increase in responsibilities so we experience it differently but it's

like just knowing that would be helpful going into having kids and like let's talk about how we're going to navigate this stuff but that drop in satisfaction is temporary right does not it ultimately supersedes those without children do I have that right yes it does so it's like those first like I think it's three to four years there's this drop and then it comes back, I just think what we have to be careful of is that sometimes that drop in satisfaction sort of shifts the bar of what we think of as our new normal. So there are some couples who become disconnected during that time, which is normal, but then they never actually repair. And then during that time of disconnection, they create a lot of hurts that end up sort of

lasting the rest of the relationship. And it sends them off on this trajectory that ends up doing a lot of damage. And these are the couples where many, many years down the line, you know, the kids are grown and they're like, I don't know, we just grew apart. You know, it's like, well, there may be some small things early on that started that pattern. So do you approach the data point with your mindset on, okay, I just have to get through three or four years? Or do you actually have to actively work those three or four years? You're not just like waiting for the time, the calendar to change. Right. I think you have to be proactive.

Yeah. I think you have to have a plan. I think couples need a plan for after kids because it's like before kids everything unexpected is like fun you're like oh we're going to build a house that'll be exciting or oh we have this work move that's an adventure you know everything is exciting and fun and just something you do together and create new experiences but after kids all that stuff becomes stressors because there's way more involved and I think we have to have a plan for couples after kids enter the picture I feel like one theme of the book is this ability to be playful almost and why is that important it's actually a core value of ours but why is that an underlying

or important tenant to work through this I know it sounds cliche but a lot of couples don't do this which is to keep fun in your relationship and the reason why it's so important is because we start to just get in sort of like the logistical monotony of life after kids where we're just like uploading and downloading information to each other but we're not actually remembering why we fell in love, why we chose this person and enjoying each other. And so it keeps the relationship fresh, keeps you remembering that you love the person that you chose. And I think, too, it adds new experiences. So you have stuff to talk about. Like I was on Netflix last night and there's a comedian. I won't say their name because it's embarrassing. But my husband, I love

comedians. And he was like a new special. And I texted my husband. I'm like, new special. Do not watch it without me. And he's like, as if I ever would. You know, but it's like now we'll have inside jokes that we'll share, that we'll talk about. And I think a lot of times people, when they've been married for a while, they sort of feel like I already know that everything there is to know about you. But knowing has this like never-ending horizon point because each day we have new experiences. And so this just gives you more shared experiences to talk about. That's really well said. And I think now that I am reflecting on this, being playful almost shows that you have.

almost like an added way to navigate reality. It's like there's always the stuff that happens to you or happens in the day to day. But are you able to be a little bit detached from that and move around through all that stuff more loosely and like with more fun perspective? Yeah, like some humor. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's tons of studies on humor and relationships and it's so beneficial. Right. Like we got a joke about stuff. And like life with kids is bananas. We have to be able to laugh at this stuff. like one of my favorite moments with my husband is like when the kids will be I don't know like kind of annoying and we'll be across from each other and we'll make eye contact and we'll just be like you know it's like we're on

the same team we're connected we're aligned and like that just feels good especially in this hectic time in life so for anybody listening if they were to find themselves in that say three to four year period where they haven't actively been working on their relationship they find themselves distancing from each other, growing resentment, feeling like, you know, they're just not together anymore, how can they turn that around? And like, what would be step one? Oof. A million dollar question. Step one, so I have like my mind works in like a million ways. So it's hard for me to choose a step one. So I'll give you one, but I can give you a couple. But one would be to start expressing more gratitude.

And this is really hard because people don't like to give until they get in relationships. And they get sort of in these standoffs where it's like, well, you're not doing this. So, I'm not going to give. So relationships require a lot of humility. Yeah. But when you step into gratitude and appreciation, it will immediately shift the tone in your relationship. And so that's like a nice way to kind of like disrupt that pattern and start to shift toward a better place. It kind of like opens the door for more positive interaction.

So that's one place I would start. Another is like a bigger picture type of thing, which is that I think couples need to start incorporating regular meetings. I think you guys have talked about this, like the business meeting in our relationships. But it is like one of the best tools you can incorporate into your family life. And if a couple is in a bad spot, this first meeting can be kind of scary because you're like, are you just going to gripe about everything? So I think the first meeting, let's say in your bad spot, the first meeting would really be about sort of just like assessing where we're at and dreaming up where we want to be.

So don't get into the nitty gritty. Don't get into all the things you're upset about or that are bugging you. But let's talk about we're here right now. This is not where we want to be, not happy. Where do we want to be in this time next year? And then let's come up with two to three things we can start to do differently together as a couple to try to work for. getting there so keep it kind of big picture is another place that I would start to make a big difference and then schedule your next meeting continue to touch base what are some of the

mistakes that you see when they're on different sides trying to come back together what are some of the mistakes one is that they they try to win I remember at our wedding my husband and I are really competitive and so you guys cannot relate to not at all and that was like our whole wedding ceremony was like about how we'll have to put our competition aside. And it's true. We really had to work hard at that. And I think a lot of times when couples are making mistakes, it's like they're viewing each other as the enemy. They're villainizing their partner. They're stuck in a bad attitude. And they just want to have that sort of like all their gripes validated. And instead we have to start to externalize some of these issues and realize.

is that you and your partner are supposed to be aligned on the same team and navigating some of these difficulties together. So instead of trying to win, I think we really need to work on addressing the actual issue and externalize that so we can think about what are some ways together we can navigate some frustrations and hardships. I love the conversation that you painted and laid out for that first meeting. It does, it's such a fine line though because marriage is contraction.

to a certain degree right and like to have a total degree it is it is a contract but i've i've realized that when you really are dead set on like this is xyz is what you need to do and these are the chores and the tasks and this and you didn't do this and you didn't do that and you're i'm supposed to do xyz and i think that's really good and necessary to have those uh relationship roles but i think a side effect of that can be losing the flexibility or the understanding or like the team aspect of it and it becomes more of a legalistic type you're not holding up your side of the bargain when there is maybe a little more grace or charity involved in like especially in a marriage unlike any other relationship it's like hey I'm here for you you know how do you balance those two things where

it's like you need to explicitly state this but also know that I'm here for you if you need anything. So balancing the rigidity versus the flexibility. This is actually why I think meetings are really helpful because they're a structure, but within the structure you can be flexible. And if you have relationship rules set, which I mean, probably more couples would benefit from doing that. I don't think a lot of couples set up their relationship rules.

But if you have some set, when you come to this meeting, you can sort of renegotiate. Like, are these working for us anymore? Like, is it working that you're supposed to get up? in the morning with the kids, and I don't, or should we swap that? Like, so that meeting provides an opportunity to reevaluate and revisit some of the, some of the ways that you're operating as a family and as a couple. And I think that it's nice to have a forum for that. Because what I find when I talk, especially with women, is that a lot of times when they

initiate a conversation about the relationship, and usually it's women who are initiating their relationship conversations. I know there's, but usually, they end up working up a whole lot of curse. and energy to do it because a lot of times their partners don't tolerate it well. So it helps to avoid some of this like bottling everything up and then blowing up or developing these deep resentments because you have a regular place, touch base, share the responsibility of the relationship. The other pieces, a lot of women will feel like, why am I the only one who cares about our relationship? Why am I the one who's like talking about date nights doing these things?

So I think that meeting sort of like helps who will eliminate some of the rigidity or reassess it can make adjustments. That's really good. We get to ask all the time like, hey, do you ever think like you guys are too structured, too rigid, too scheduled out? And it takes away like the whimsy of life, you know, like this whimsical spontaneity or like the romance that we all like to think just like happens. It's like, well, I know myself well enough that I'm totally irresponsible with my time if I have no boundaries on it. You know what I'm saying? So the meeting from my standpoint, us having these structured things, these structured times, we call them monthly checkups for like when we need to, when we come together and say, hey, this is a pattern I've seen that I would like to change or the weekly schedule meetings, which are my least favorite. they're my least favorite but you've gotten really you've gotten so much better at them i i think

we have a long way to go but sean shan was good in taking the courage and having the courage to want to establish those and i think i'm more good at like hey well it's on the schedule like i'm like let's do it but not when you when you have it planned and everyone's expecting it to happen it's it's way more easy uh to just hey we have a meeting and this is what we do and it's not like emotionally charged thing like what do you want a meeting about like what I do wrong or it's just like no this is what we do and maybe there's something that needs to be talked about maybe not but it's there you know yeah I feel like that's one of the main benefits is that like when you have this on the book then and you do it repeatedly it sort of like takes the heat out of having these conversations

where they're not charged anymore because you get so used to it and then I think that usually there's one partner who's more on edge about how things are going in in the family and in the And so it takes out some of their anxiety knowing that these things are scheduled and it's like with kids, you know, with kids we've learned that when they have boundaries, they feel more secure and they feel safer. And probably having meetings like this with a little bit of structure provides enough safety and security to then lean into more whimsy and ability and spontaneity in other ways. Because like that box is checked. It's handled. I was actually going to say exactly that. Like when we started implementing more boundaries within a relationship, it's like, we know date night is every Thursday and some people will say well you don't have as much freedom to be you know impulsive or adventurous or whatever but it's like since we know that we find ways with each date night to have adventure and to have spontaneity and to have whimsy and to have like these moments so it's almost allowed us to have more yeah yeah i just think that's nitpicking yeah like these people are because it's like a lot of people don't even get a weekly date night

I know. And so, okay, so you have one that's scheduled? I mean, it's kind of like people say this about sex, too, about scheduling sex. But that just takes the fun out of it. And I'm like, not really, because then you have all day to sort of like be thinking about it and getting in the mood forward and thinking, you know, all of that stuff. And so I think that there are benefits to having some structure. You talk about the five questions, the five important questions that go along with intimacy and the conversations that you should have to kick up your intimacy. Yeah. Can you tell us what those are?

Oh, gosh. I can, well, they all require like a little explanation. Yes. So let's just do like maybe one or two. Great. Take over. Great. Check out the book if you want to read them all.

Yes. Yeah. So one of them is exploring your desire. And a lot of couples don't really understand how desire works. A lot of people don't. And that's just kind of normal. Not understand it. So I can explain like Desire 101. The desire is a two-part system.

and the easiest way to explain it is that we have an accelerator and we have a break. So accelerator is like what turns you on, break is what turns you off. And then they operate separately. And you can have different levels of sensitivity for each. So somebody might have a really sensitive accelerator and it's like a cool breeze turns them on. And they have like a very like unsensitive break. So nothing really turns them off. Somebody might have a really sensitive accelerator but also a sensitive brake.

So you sort of have to, like, kind of understand where you fall. And for the most part, for women, the break will override the accelerator. So if you start to, like, kind of think about this as how and how it applies to you, you can start to think about things that, like, turn you on. And by the way, like, I'm not just talking about stuff in the bedroom. For the most part, like, some of my biggest turn on is, like, happen outside the bedroom. And I think that's where sex starts outside the bedroom. So you think about what turns me on, but then what turns me off.

So that's why it's part of my book on the mental load is for a lot of people, a full brain crowds out any, any opportunity to get in the mood for sex because it's occupied with things. Or if your partner, you come to your partner and you're like, I got to talk to you. I'm overwhelmed. And they're like, you know, it's going to be okay. And they kind of like dismiss it. And you're like, that's not what I need. That can shut down desire.

So there's, we have to sort of expand our definition of it. But then also couples need to talk about this stuff. Because I think we get this narrow view on sex where it's basically like, what does it for you in the bedroom? But it's like, no, we need to talk about the dynamics outside of the bedroom that are killing desire. Like a lot of women after kids are like, I just can't find it anymore. And there's a physical and a physiological component to that.

But also, we're super overwhelmed. We're super busy. And for a woman to be turned on, her brain off. And so we really need to talk about. things as a couple so we can maximize all the things that hit the accelerator and minimize everything it's the break jumping back to explain a little bit of what you're saying can you explain mental load yes because we've even talked about this how like it's taking over social media at the moment people trying to explain the woman's mental load or the mother's mental load and the

differences between like a mother's mental load versus a father's or a man's this is a long answer I know. I'm sorry. I don't hear me like, does she stop talking? No. This is why we brought you on. We want to know all of this. Okay. So the 30,000 foot definition is that the mental load is the seemingly never-ending running to-do list that we carry around in our heads as two key components. Most of the stuff involved in it is invisible, which makes it hard to explain to somebody else, which makes it hard to outsource, and also it's hard to get appreciation around. The second piece is it takes some cognitive real estate. That's kind of what I was talking about. Like it crowds out energy and space and room for other things like peace, presence, patience, regulating

your emotions, getting in the mood for sex. Everybody has a mental load. I remember my husband and I in the beginning when we talked about this. He's like, well, do you my mental load? And we're like, now we're competing. And I'm like, this isn't going anywhere. So everyone has one. But research shows time and time again in home and family life, even if a woman works or doesn't

work, she tends to carry the majority of it in the home and family. Okay. So I think the easiest way to explain sort of like the in the weeds differences is I actually have a visual in the book. So I'll describe it. But think of a Venn diagram with three circles. So the tasks involved in the mental load have three different domains. The first is a physical. Stereotypically, this is where guys crush it. They're like, make me a list, babe. Like, I'm on it. I'll do the dishes. Do you feel better? And we're like, better. I'm still overwhelmed. it's just like doing the tasks then there is the mental which is making the list or like grocery lists or work stuff so a lot of mental and then the third is the emotional and this seems like the differentiator to me like I looked at the research and talked to men and that is like the ongoing calculations that we're regularly making to try to maximize positive experiences of members our family so it's like the short-term stuff where we're projecting those into the future where we'll be like okay it's dinner time like how do i make something everybody will

eat so that i don't have like my son's name is roy but roy doesn't go to bed and like as soon as he gets in bed he wants a bar or some sort of snack you know and make sure he gets like enough nutrition because he's like itty-bitty and like how do i make sure i fill that kid up right it's like that's a short-term one and then the long term is like educational decisions for our kids where we're like oh where should we live get the best school but also they have good people around them and set them up for You know, we're future projecting and the stakes feel really high, even in the short-term ones. And it takes up a lot of space, a lot of energy, a lot of research, a lot of times.

And so that's the one that's really hard for a couple of reasons. One, it's really hard to explain to somebody who doesn't think the same way. Second is that it follows you everywhere. So you could be like at work and be just whiplash back out of the presence into this sort of emotional calculating state. And it requires a really deep knowing of members of your family. So it's hard. You can't like hire somebody really to do it unless they've been around your family

a really long time. So the last piece. At the intersection of these three circles is what I just call the triple threat. And that's that and most of the task of home and family life sort of occur there, which means that dinner is not just booking dinner. It's thinking through what's in your pantry and in your fridge. and what you need from the store and then like always missing that one stinking ingredient figuring that out and then it's also that emotional piece how do I make something everyone will eat

get an nutrition you know it's one little task that seems really simple unpacks to contain a ton of work energy thought and heart from all these three domains and i think that's the piece that's helpful for our partners to understand because um a lot of times women will be like i'm so overwhelmed. And partners were like, tell me about it. What's going on? Like, well, I've got to make dinner, permission slips, like enroll them in Little League. And they're like, no? Like, that's life. Life is busy. Like, make a list. Knock it out. You got this. It's not a big deal. And for us, a couple of things happen. It can feel like, shoot, I can't figure out how to explain this. Or it can feel like my partner doesn't get it. They just never will understand. Or we can start

to judge ourselves. Am I so overwhelmed? This is normal life stuff. But when we understand that each task unpacks to reveal all of this effort, it makes sense why we're often pretty overwhelmed and sort of always needing to be productive. But the very things that are triple threats.

I'm like, yes. Yeah, no, that was actually super helpful for me. Thank you. Was that good for you? Okay, good. Thank you so much. I think I should just like go around, explain to husband. The amount of times they get overwhelmed at dinner

and trying to explain that. I'm like, I'm thinking about them 10 years from now and do they have a bad relationship with food because when I made them for dinner? Yeah. Or you're like, even the thing of like, do I make them finish their food or make them eat a few more bites?

Or do I'm like, no, you set your own boundaries. Like, the whole thing is overwhelming to navigate. Then I got to bed thinking about my kids talking to their therapist someday about how my mom made me finish my meal every single night. You know. When you said everyone has a mental load, I kind of felt like a buffoon though

because I was like, comparatively. Sean's mental load is just, I know it, she knows it, it's way larger than mine, you know, and I'm like, I don't even know if I have a mental load. I think I'm just vibe it. The amount of times it is, it is common, just vibing. The amount of times will be sitting in silence and I'm like, what are you thinking about? He's like, there's literally nothing. I'm like, I don't understand what do you. No, my husband is the same thing. Like what words are going through your head. Like my dialogue literally never stop. Never ends. But she'll say like one sentence too. And then she'll like say another. sentence that's like my response to her response to my response and it's like I don't even know what just happened in your mind I'm just like I'm just smiling and waving you know and like is your is your brain literally just like a blank white wall or is it not even a wall I think I think I should go get checked out or something like I look that's super common by the way or at least or my husband's there

too because I'm like what you're thinking about he's like nothing like how do you do that I think I would literally have to in my brain think nothing nothing nothing it would just have to be on repeat yes yes it's impossible impossible the very things that you described is almost the mind field of like the triple threat where it's like hey dinner when i belittled dinner that's a big deal for sean and she feels offended because there's the mental the physical and the emotional part involved in that for her which i'm sure i'm my own i'm not self-aware enough to know what those are right now But I'm going to try to find one. But I also think that it's those very things that are triple threats that could lead to the most hurt that also are the most powerful and beneficial, especially like dinner.

It's like for me, our family dinners growing up were so formational to me and like core to our family identity. So they should be paid attention to both because they're soft spots and could cause hurt, but also because. And maybe as a result, they are, there are the very things that, like, mean the most in a lot of ways, you know? Yes. So. That's why the stakes feel high. Yeah. With stuff like this.

Very. Yeah. I am curious, though, so you mentioned the resentment that you started experiencing towards your husband. What happened next? Then I was scared to have another child. I mean, that's the truth. Yeah. It's because it was, it felt, you know, and part of it was our circumstances because of that.

move and so when he when he went to california and i stayed in i stayed in florida because my family was close by and i was like i'm not gonna what live in temporary housing while you're busy at work dinners like i'm gonna stay here where i have support and so i remember um so we just kind of carried on like honestly it's like not the best years of our relationship i um grew up with a mom who was like this stereotypical 80s 90s super mom and so i just took all that and i just like place that on myself as the expectations I carry for myself. I have a lot of stamina. So I just like put my head down and I just handled stuff. And the more I handled stuff, the the less involved my husband was. And that's his, he carries responsibility for that too. But also I just kind

of was like, I got it. I'll do it. Don't worry about it. So we went on for a while like that. And I remember when we were talking about having a second kid, we went round and round because our daughter, Effie, is, like, kind of spicy. I can't. And then we're like, but she can't be an only child. So you're, like, stuck in that world. And I ended up getting pregnant really fast. And then I was early with her and it was really late with our son.

And I remember I had a midwife. I was talking to her and I was like, I don't know what's going on. I'm coming. Like, what's happening? I think you're holding on to something because she thought it was some complication with my first birth. but I think I was holding on to actually like the worry and the fear about what would happen to our marriage because I felt so uncared for and not understood, like very misunderstood during that time.

And so we had to have a sit down and we had to talk about it. We had to talk about expectations and the second time around we did it differently. I think after that talk, Roy ended up coming within like in the next couple days. So yeah, so we had to make adjustments. And the adjustments were personal adjustments and how I showed up this time around and then also how we navigate it as a couple. So I talked about this in my first book,

but I had to really get good at expressing what I needed. Women are notoriously horrible at this because we make our needs really small. And partially we have to. Me, I first have kids. You're like, I can't be a priority. But then we sort of get stuck on the back burner. And then we get to a place where we're so disassociated from ourselves.

we don't even what we need anymore and be like hey you have a minute we're like I don't even know what's going to like a drop in the bucket by that point so I had to get good at identifying what I needed and then express it with like a healthy sense of entitlement I'm like a jerk but just like I had to get in there a little bit with my husband and he had adjust I remember at one point he's like you're different I was like no I'm just not stuffing it all down and so like let's figure out how I can deliver this in a way you can handle and then we had to make adjustments as a couple where he had to get to step up more to make more room for him I had to change some of my expectations and we had to get better at talking about this stuff on a regular basis one of the questions we have here

why is it important for both people in a relationship to speak up and be able to say what they need I want to talk about that entitlement piece because yeah I don't know the right balance but I just had a lunch with a business partner a couple weeks ago he's like let me I I need to, I have to tell you what I need in this. And it's like, okay, please do, but what do we do with that? Like, your needs are not the freaking top of the food chain, neither am I. Both the needs really matter, but they're not, they're not the most important thing. So how do you, how do you view that, the entitlement piece of it?

You know what I'm saying? In the relationship? In a marriage. I mean, everything is kind of a negotiation in a marriage, but I was at a place in my own, so I'll speak to how operated in ours. where I feel like with my husband, Chad, he didn't have to speak up a lot for what he needed because, like, naturally it kind of just shook out that way. And not like, you know, nothing wrong with him.

But it's like, I remember after our daughter was born, he was on a work trip. And then on the way home, he stopped and got a haircut. And I was like, are you serious? Like, are you? We had like a two month old. I was like, must be, you know, and I shouldn't be this upset about it. But I was like, must be nice. That you didn't like rearrange the stars to get your hair done.

And you didn't check with me. So in some ways, like, his needs. needs just kind of got met a little bit more easily. And so, I don't know, I think that there seems to be, and I know this isn't always true, but there seems to be a bit more space for like the husbands and the dads to kind of find that time often. This is what I think is important to keep in mind. As a woman and specifically as a mother, if our needs aren't met sometimes, like we

don't have to go first. It's not going to happen all the time, but we got to take turns. Like a lot of mothers don't ever get a turn. Then we're not able to show up for our family in the ways that we really do. When a mom is lifted up and cared for and like getting close to feeling whole, she's going to be able to better give to her kids, be patient with her kids, show up in her relationship, have more energy to give to a relationship. So sort of like the heart of the family for a lot of families is the mom.

And so it's important that you find your voice and that her needs priority. I 100% agree. I find myself sometimes at my worst when I'm like, you know, when things are tough or the kids are screaming or there's chaos and you're just, I just need a minute of silence. How do you differentiate needs from I would really like this and it's not possible or it's not realistic? do you see the difference it's like that's not really a need that's just me I gotta tighten up I gotta freaking step up to the plate

and I'm thinking about this wrong I'm being honest I love it this is keep going like when do you like power through and when do you take the minute yeah it's like what do I actually need I actually maybe I need to think about that more

but like whenever I get in a place where I'm I'll just say it from my perspective like mentally fragile enough to say I need this then I'm like uh oh I got to freaking boot up and like not view that as a need anymore. You know what I'm saying?

You say. I, you're going to start bringing up arguments that we have because we talk about this a lot. I think there is a difference in getting to that point and saying, oh, I need to boot up and I need to be better. And I think you should, in my personal opinion, please correct me if I'm completely wrong.

I think a better approach is like just admitting a vulnerability and saying I actually need more than a minute I need your help like I need your support as a spouse to allow me because of whatever it is mental load of some kind I need your support right now and I actually do need in order to be the best parent to go sit down for five minutes yeah and I don't think that's I don't think that's you You being a bad parent, I think that's being human. And I don't think you need to be stronger. I think that's literally why you have a teammate. But you know those times where you're like, I need a glass of wine right now. You're like, that's not, that's not right. I think, you know. But I think reading into that as a spouse and saying, my spouse is saying, I need a glass of wine.

I need a second. I need a piece of space. No, you don't need a glass of wine. You don't, alcohol is not the answer. Let's say that. But like, my spouse is obviously struggling with. something. Yeah.

So rather than exploiting that to them and saying, no, do better, be better. It's like, babe, it's okay. I agree. And how nice to have, like, both people receptive to one another's needs. Yeah. And I think, like, I've noticed this in my husband is he'll try to be needless sometimes. And he'll sort of do the thing where he's just man up and you just push through, pushes through.

And then all of us are like, why is dad so grumpy? Like, it comes out in other ways. You know, you're like, so I think, you know, it's hard to answer your question because everybody's different. And so I think like a good metric is thinking about your time and your energy. And like you and Sean can then talk about if one of you or both of you are at your wit's end, like who's got the energy to sort of push a little further and do you have the time to and vice versa. But I think we have to know ourselves. We have to check in with ourselves. Like what is it that's going on for me right now? What do I need? That will help me fill up a

little bit so then I can show up in a in a more present way for my family and if you need the minute ask for support it feels good to give in our relationships it really does so it's like if you come to her for support it's probably going to feel kind of good for her to give that to you and then she knows you'll be yeah ready to give later on no I agree what what I am just fully real well coming to realize in this conversation right now live this is this is a great conversation it is I'm realizing how emotionally like I feel like I have a pretty good emotional IQ or whatever the EQ but like when you say something it's like levels to it like the glass of wine it's like okay I got to think about what is she actually saying you know babe we've been together 14 years I think there's like there's depth to it

and I take things so literally where it's like oh she needs he's like you don't need to sit down like you don't need to sit down you're fine standing this is literally how we yeah I'm doing a lot of self-reflection as a result of this, so I'm glad. And kind of like even the other day, Mr. Grumpy Pants is walking around, and I'm like, what's wrong? And he's like, nothing. And I'm like, obviously something. Well, now it is because you put me on the spot. I'm like, no, there is something.

But like, it's fine to say it. It's not making you a weaker human being. Yeah. It's literally just helping me support you. Sometimes, I used to have a term for it. I used to talk about my husband. I can't think of it right now, but it's basically like having like insight and retrospect where it's like you're grumpy and she's like, what's going out?

You're like nothing. And then you're like, I'm fine, I'm fine. And then later on you might be like, oh, well, this happened today. And I'm kind of. It's like the insight comes. It's the late onset insight. That's like, literally. So you might just need to like slow down and check in with yourself and figure out what is it that I need.

But I think, you know, overall people, men and women, can be pretty bad at expressing what we need. We tend to focus on women, but men are pretty bad at it too. So we have to get better at this. And I think, like, if I were to give a quick sort of tip for how to get in touch with what you need, one of the quickest ways to get there is to think about what you complain about the most. So our complaints, our windows into our unmet needs. And if we're like walking, I don't know, I do this on me, but if you're like, I'll walk around the house muttering under my breath when I'm like at my level. limit. So if you like analyzed your mutterings, it would reveal probably a need that you have that's not getting it. And then I think the other pieces is that when we express a need, it's

helpful to accompany it with a clear deliverable. Sometimes in our relationships, I see this across the board with relationship stuff. We'll just complain about something, which is a need a lot of times. It will be vague. Like for years, I would say to my husband, like I just need more romance. Mm-hmm. And he's like, okay. And I'm like, why doesn't anything change? It's like, well, that's vague. You know, what does that mean more romance? What does that mean to me? He doesn't understand that. He sent flowers once and then nothing happened again. I don't understand. And what happens a lot of times then is that, like, for example, in our own relationship, I'd be like, that that's not what I wanted. And he's like, oh, you need so much. What's like, you're so complicated. I'm just not like that. I don't need that. And like the little things and suddenly become big things pretty quick. in our relationship so if we're clear with the outcome we want to see in the deliverable it can save us we talk a lot about goals and like vision and i think that kind of plays into that where it's like actually a really fun process to go on that adventure together of like hey flowers do do an experiment of like try a bunch of different things and see what makes you feel romance or

whatever it's like flowers actually didn't make me feel like i was romanced or holding hands really did or and it's like I don't know I'm probably I'd probably like write too much stuff down I'm probably too analytical like that but it's like okay Sean like that she likes a holding hand that's great that did work check and it's literally what you do that's so nice but it's like I think people probably wish their husbands would do more of that like be be intentional about it yeah but it but it really is an adventure and it's like a game of like we're both finding that out and I'm learning about her and she's learning about her and she I'm learning about me and she's learning about me. I'm curious, the tagline, less resentment and great sex. So as promised at the

beginning of the episode, actually just define what great sex is. How about how would we start there? I've never had to do that. That's a good question. I think great sex is, is subjective to the couple that's defining it. So great sex is where both people are like relatively happy with the frequency of sex. Usually there's always one who wants a little bit more and one like wants less or they're good with where they're at. So they're both relatively happy with it. And it's a mutually fulfilling sex life. Both people get enjoyment out of it.

It enhances the relationship by bringing it closer. And there's a sense of openness. I'm just winging it. I don't rate sex right now. But I think those are some of the key components. What would be to follow up that question? The biggest mistake you see couples make, like within their sex life. I think one is they don't talk about it, which is like really funny that will get naked.

We're like, this is too awkward to talk about it. You're like, okay, that makes absolutely no sense. So I think that's a big piece of it. I think the other is that we have to remember that I talk in the book about two core desires everybody has in their relationship to feel loved and to feel secure. And you can unpack those in different ways. But the way that we arrive at those feelings are very different. So broad strokes, stereotypically for a lot of men to feel safe and loved relationship,

got to have a healthy sex life. You got to have a fulfilling sex life. That's sort of like lets them know, oh, I'm desired, I'm wanted, I'm safe in my relationship. And I think for women, broad strokes again, for a lot of us, we want to feel connected when we feel safe and loved. Then we feel better entering into our sex life. And I think there's just like, we just miss each other on this. It feels just like the game is rigged a little bit. We're like, why can't we just feel the same on this one?

And so sometimes I think one partner will minimize the importance of what's going on in the bedroom and the other partner will minimize the importance of what's going on outside the bedroom. And we miss each other. But we need to, again, it's that stepping toward with humility and understanding can make a big, big difference. And I think, you know, something throughout the book I try to do is provide a lot of explanations and understanding of dynamics that can become very personalized. And then when they're personalized, we get offended and we just our own. partner doesn't care about us but there's some sort of like sort of like universal differences that really impact our relationships i think this is one of them yeah how do you feel connected what's

interesting about sex with the differences you just described is like what a like magical alchemy of like okay because all of these outside the bedroom type things you described earlier and the connectedness that does come with sex but then the sex that's that is desired by one party maybe more than the other like the physical part of it it's like this create there's a lot that goes yeah you know what i'm saying yeah you're just realizing this i'm i don't think i don't think they do some i don't think sorry i don't think like my husband too i remember once i was like did you realize he's like oh yeah yeah yeah we're very we're very complex been a great conversation you had another question oh closing question okay what

If you were to come up with one, what's a challenge for couples listening that they could take away from this or try this week to hopefully help their connection, not just with sex, like just within their relationship? Okay, I have two. Can I give two? Please. Okay. I do experiments in my relationship without telling my husband.

I keep waiting. I'm like saying it more and more where I'm like, I'm going to see if he listens to any podcast I've ever done. That's amazing. But I do. I've been doing them for years. He never knows. And then I just watch and I see if anything changes in the relationship.

And it's wild how much you can change as an individual in the dynamic of your relationship. So one of the ones I did several years ago is so he'd always accuse me of being too sensitive. And I'm not like easily offended. It's actually really hard to offend me. But I'm just like a sensitive person in that like I pick up on stuff. So I was always like, are you okay with me? Are you okay with me? I was always like doing this temperature checking.

That's me. Yeah. And drives him crazy. You're probably a highly sensitive person. Very. Yeah. So have you read that book? No.

You should read that book. Okay, I'll read it. Literally the highly sensitive person. Great. Okay, so read that. And then you'll be like, oh my gosh, my life makes sense. So anyway, I would always be temperature checking and I would annoy him. And it would actually start fights sometimes because then you'd be like, I'm fine.

And now I'm not fine because you're bugging me about this. That happened 45 minutes ago. Literally right before you walked it. Yeah. I was like, what's wrong? It's a thing. It happens a lot. So I did this experiment.

where I just started taking zero things personally, nothing personally. And I did it for 30 days. Okay. And so if I felt his mood, I was like, eh. And I would not engage. I would not temperature check. I would not respond. And it made the biggest difference in our relationship.

And he would shift if I picked up on a mood and I was usually right. Because like I have, he has that delayed onset insight. Oh, yeah. So I would kind of know, but I just let it go. And he would shift out of it faster. And it never created that tension between us. It's like kind of amazing. So that's one thing.

The second thing is where I started is just to increase gratitude in your relationship. And in the book, I give a formula for a really good compliment. And so I think couples should do this today for each other. And the formula is observation of either a personal quality or something that they do, plus how it makes your life better. if couples did this every single day I think it would completely their relationship so I'll give me an example

it might be I see how hard you work to put a good dinner on the table for our family I cannot tell you how much that relieves any worry that I have that our kids are going to be well fed and taken care of and I appreciate all of the heart and the people that would feel good

we get once a day both people do it to each other wow I have one more question Because you mentioned you didn't feel supported. Were you not supported by your husband in those early years? Or did you just not feel supported or does the difference even matter? Does trying to differentiate those two even matter?

I feel like in some ways he wasn't, he was very passive. I find this a lot with like partnerships of after kids is usually a lot of times women will have partners who are willing, but they're passively willing to do things. So they're like waiting like, what's my orders? I always joke my husband's like Emmett from the Lego movie. because he just wants a set of instructions. Yeah. I think in one hand, he wasn't stepping up enough.

And so that had to shift. And he had to sort of just like know he had permission to get it wrong. And I was okay with that. And I really needed him to go up in some different ways. And I think, you know, and I do think, yes, he did support me. Of course. Like he wasn't absent. But maybe the support was different than what I needed at the time.

I don't remember the last part of you. question. No, I think that answered. That was really good. Well, compliment for you of gratitude. I know you've spent a lot of time writing this book, and it's based off of a light lifetime of devotion to this subject. So thank you for coming, blessing us with your wisdom, and this was a really good conversation.

I think you changed our relations. I hope so. Yeah. Thanks for having me. That was awesome. I love what you guys do. So for those listening that want to learn more about Dr. Cutlip, we'll link your information down below, as well as the link to your new book.

look, a better share. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.