Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - John Eldredge

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

Today we got to interview someone we’ve been hoping to meet for a long time and that’s a personal favorite author, counselor and teacher, John Eldredge! You may know John from his most popular book, Wild at Heart, a book Andrew recommends to everyone. “Wild at Heart” has inspired a ministry that currently includes events, retreats , a podcast and several additional books published by John. As parents of two boys, it was really impactful to talk to John about how to best support, encourage and raise confident young men in today’s world. We hope you learn as much from this conversation as we did :) Love you guys! Shawn & Andrew To learn more about Wild at Heart or find a retreat near you ▶ https://wildatheart.org/ Follow our podcast Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/shawnandandrewpods/ Subscribe to our newsletter ▶ https://www.familymade.com/newsletter Follow My Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@shawnjohnson Shop My LTK Page ▶ https://www.shopltk.com/explore/shawnjohnson  Like the Facebook page! ▶ https://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow Andrew’s Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Andrew’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@andrewdeast?lang=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things, interviews with Sean and Andrew. Today, we have a wonderful guest, John Eldridge. You may have heard of the book Wild at Heart. I have now read that book about three times, and it's a phenomenal book. I think it's an important book for any father of sons to read or any parents of sons. Or even a spouse. Yes. Yes. It really talks about the operating system of a man. And it was written by John Eldridge, who has three sons himself. John and his wife Stacy are living out in Colorado Springs, and I am so honored that John joined us because this book has meant a lot to me, and I feel like it really reflects how my father

raised me, which means a lot. And John is an author, a counselor, and a teacher. He's also president of Wild at Heart, which is a ministry devoted to helping people discover the heart of God, recover their own hearts in God's love, and learn to live in God's kingdom. John went to Cal Poly and got a theater degree there, and then he worked at Focus on the Family for a while, got his master's from Colorado Christian, and he was working as a private counselor at a private practice before launching Wild at Heart, and he's big outdoorsman. He loves all the Colorado Mountains and the beauty that that has, big in the Shakespeare, which we talk about bow hunting, cigars, all the manly stuff. They also, at Wild at Heart, just came out with a series, which is phenomenal. You can find it on YouTube, which is Wild at Heart, the series, walks through different stories of men who have stories of redemption. And definitely worth checking out.

It is really beautifully put together, and they have several of those videos out. So thank you, John, for joining us today. Thank you for the work that you've done. Thank you for the book that you've written. He's actually written several books. I just read another one of his called Fathered by God. which kind of walks through the different phases of manhood. It's just nice to have kind of like an awareness or a framework of vocabulary that you can use

as we navigate raising sons as I navigate what manhood looks like without a father as I navigate what it means to be a man in general. I think it's an important topic. So hope you listening learn something. Did you have any takeaways? I just think he spewed so much wisdom, especially as a parent to both two boys and then a girl, he was able to kind of simplify the complexities of raising both sides

in a way that really clicked for both of us. And I just felt like we could have talked to him forever. So if you want to find out more about John and what he's up to, we'll link his information down below, his books, The Wild the Heart series, his podcast will include down there. And we hope you enjoy this one with John Eldridge. John Eldridge. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.

I want to start with an oddball question here first, because I hear one of your interests we actually share. And the question is, is Shakespeare real? Was he actually a real poet or not? I need to know. Yeah. I think the case that he didn't exist is pretty, pretty slim. What's really interesting is the case is, was he a believer? Is a really interesting question because he was a really interesting question? a Bible translator for part of his work. I read a book by Bill Bryson, who's a wonderful author, all about Shakespeare. Yeah, yeah, it's a great book. Yeah, and it honestly, it made me super interested in Shakespeare just because it's like, man, the guy was a legend. No one wrote like he did, and to this day, like everyone still kind of rides the coattails of his style, it seems. But

anyway, you also kind of look like him, but that's kind of a side now. I don't know if that's, I feel like he looks like Shakespeare. Shakespeare or a desert father. Yeah. Well, we were just talking off camera a little bit. We have three kids ourselves. Our oldest is a daughter. She is this wonderful, beautiful princess, super into fashion.

She's five years old and picks out her own clothes. It's amazing. And then we have two boys, a three-year-old who is, I mean, the book Wild at Heart, it feels like. epitomizes our son epitomizes jet is his name and a 10 month old named bear who also seems to be like he's rip ready to go and just conquer life but uh i i just want to say thank you because reading your wild at heart watching the wild at heart series which i know recently launched and for those listening who haven't seen that uh on youtube definitely check it out it's about um it's about different men who have experienced brokenness and then come to be redeemed, but then also fathered by God is another book that you wrote. And that has so much informed my approach to parenting in this age where I feel, I don't know, it's like, I don't know what it, I don't even know what it means to be a man, you know? And it's like, so thank you for

helping guide that path. But I'm curious for you, what inspired that process of writing the book and the impact behind it. So I raised three boys. So part of it was in the trenches, but I had an alcoholic father. So I came from a really traumatic background. And I wasn't fathered well. So how do I do this?

At the very same time, I'm a young therapist. And so I've got all these clients that I'm trying to help. And there was this convergence of, wait a second, no matter what my client was struggling with, you know, one guy, it was a gambling addiction, another guy, it's depression, another guy, it's a marriage thing. The core issues were always the same. We would always discover a pretty significant father wound, or perhaps a mother wound. We would discover the search for validation. I'm like, wait, this is really universal. I know it's true true for me. It's really true for my boys. It's true for my clients. And so I started speaking

on it before I ever wrote wild at heart. I was doing men's retreats and conferences, you know, around the country, around the world. And in other cultures, guys were going, yep, that's me. Yep, those are my questions. And I went, whoa, this is, this is universal. Like there is something true to just the masculine soul, you know, whatever age, wherever, whatever, whatever, whatever cultural context so out of that then came the book itself I could dive in I don't think you knew this but I was actually gifted your book when I was a 19 years old and read it when I was 19 um love it love everything you're doing I do think it's interesting though before we like dive deeper into the teaching of it could you define in your words? Could you define in your

words, the masculine soul, because I do think we unfortunately live in a time where that's very confused. I feel like we have many different definitions where people are coming from what's too masculine, what's not appropriate to teach to a boy, what you have this whole generation of like too much masculinity is actually toxic. And then you have another side saying, well, you can never have enough. What is your definition? And is it biblical? And where does it stem from? Yeah, that's good. I enjoy chatting with you guys. Thank you. I think I would say it's courage on behalf of others. And now let's really unpack that. Okay. So I do think it's biblical. I do think if we go back to the narrative, the human narrative, Genesis 1 and 2, there is this extraordinary dignity that

is given to gender. It says that God says, let us make man in our image, male and female, he made them. So gender is more than biology. We immediately know that, okay, because God is more than biology, right? In gender is at the level of the soul because it's where the imprint of the image of God has given to us. And so there's an enormous amount of dignity that I think we can restore to people as they're wrestling with gender questions, as they're wondering, gosh, is this just socially constructed or how much is nature and nurture, that sort of thing, go, no, no, no, let's back up and go, this is God's imprint in your humanity. I mean, for those,

who are kind of curious about the biblical thing, and then Jesus goes on, like to say, you will be a man or a woman forever. Like eternally, that is imprinted in our soul. You know, when Jesus walks out of the tomb on Easter morning, he's still a guy. He doesn't become an angel or some sort of, you know, wispy being. He's got a body, and he's a guy. So there's a dignity there that I think would be really good to restore in people's framework. And therefore, I think questions of gender, heartache around gender, wounds around gender are some of the deepest wounds that we carry as gender identity is formed in childhood and some of the deeper questions of love and affirmation.

This is where people are going to carry some of their deepest wounds. also so that that would be an overview where do you want to go from there what what do you think is the source for the the modern pushback and maybe it's a tailable as old as time against this concept of god making us a certain way like what is it about us that wants to push back against that? Well, there, we have to recognize that there are men and women and individuals who struggle whether they are male or female or, you know, they, who have endured a great deal of pain because they didn't fit the gender mold. You know, so like our son, our middle son was a really sensitive boy and he cried very

easily at things. He was deeply emotive and deeply. Well, you put that on a grade school playground, like that is shame and embarrassment and, you know, you're weak. And there were a lot of wounds that he received outside the home. against his masculinity. And we had this beautiful, beautiful day. We were actually skiing and we're on the chairlift and we're going up. And I was describing, hey, hey, you know, Jesus was kind of a, he was a real guy. And Blaine's like, yeah. And I said, you know, he, he wet. Like, he had a lot of

emotions. He was a deeply emotive man. King David, you know, he was a, he was a real warrior. but he had a lot of emotions and just affirming blame that his emotions were good and it doesn't mean he's not strong and brave and true also you know he he is a man and but he was really assaulted there so let's just recognize you know there are women uh and let's go to athletics you know there there are women who are like i don't want tea parties i want to get out there and crush it on the soccer field. There are things I want to do. I'm a climber and I want to, I don't want to be at the dress, you know, store. I want to be out on the rocks, you know. So we've got to recognize people have struggled with square peg round hole. Okay. However, I think the deeper issue is this,

you guys. Over the course of several millennia, but but particularly in the modern era, we have really exalted the self. Be the best version of you. That's kind of the latest. We've exalted the self to such a degree that the self gets to define itself. And what I want to point out is that the rise of anxiety and depression have followed right along with that choice. You know, you make the self its own source of meaning, validation, orientation, purpose. That's actually a crushing burden to put on the self.

But let's, so we have now a culture of the offended self. And you can look at it in politics. You can look at it, you know, on social media. I mean, you guys, post an opinion about raising a dog, like dog training. And you will be, you will be met with this fury of offended selves, right? So having done that, I think the self is like, well, maybe I get to redefine even at the level of gender. Maybe, maybe I can just, I can choose whoever I want to be. But, but I would, you know, and I would recommend Preston Sprinkles's book on this.

He's a great, great writer on this stuff and he's got a great book on gender. Essentially what he's going to say is your biology tells you who you are. You are male or female. And apart from surgery, you know, you are in neurochemically and how all that works. So I want to come back to you. Gender has enormous dignity. It's under an enormous amount of salt these days. And I think the evil one.

I think the kingdom of darkness hates the image of God in us and wants to dismantle gender. Going back to gender identity trauma or gender identity wounds, as a parent to little ones, who we tried to help our children define themselves in the image of God from the get-go. what on the therapist side seeing all of these cases what gender identity wounds tend to happen at a young age that some parents might not even be aware of because I do feel like you were

kind of alluding to that there are these cultural beliefs that might be flawed of boys can't cry so being told as a young boy stop it your boy you can't do that or girls who can't do X, Y, and Z because they're a girl. What are these traumas that we can impose on our kids without even knowing? Yeah. Okay. So because we're getting into parenting questions, I just, I need to bring in the assurance. Guys, this rescued Stace and I and many, many, many parents, that the beautiful

passage in scripture that says, love covers a multitude of sins. Um, your, your child's core need, male or female, boy or girl, their core need is to know that you adore them. Okay. That's the core need. And if you are meeting that need, okay, a lot of your other mistakes as parents of like, oh my gosh, we really missed you on, you know, that, I didn't know you wanted to be in choir.

I'm so sorry we didn't get you in there. Just all the failures that, that we're going to face. as parents, look, if you are laying a foundation in your daughter or son's hearts, we adore you. They're going to be good to navigate a lot of what would otherwise be wounding. Okay. They're going to be good. Because if that isn't there, then the uncertainty, you know, and the lack of attachment, frankly, it's fundamental attachment. will make small things very wounding okay so if you're lay that foundation everybody love covers a multitude of sense just okay so um the the the the wounding tends to come in

what would be gender stereotypes so like boys can't cry you know you got to be tough get up on the field you know suck it up do harder girls um tomboy isn't feminine right she she wants to get dirty she wants to play in the mud. She wants to, she wants to ride motocross. Like, um, like to, to recognize that there is a beautiful femininity to be found in bravery and courage. Okay. And to affirm that and go, sweetheart, if you want to get out there and ride dirt bikes, that's where we're going. And to identify to, because this is the key thing of parenting as well. You need to delight in what your kids delight in. And, and, And I missed my son pretty bad, our first son, I missed him really bad with video games

because I hate video games. And I think there are a waste of time and yada, yada, yada. Until they found out, by the way, that the next generation of fighter pilots were better and faster at their reactions because they had played video games. But I really missed him. And what I needed to do was meet him there. You'll avoid a lot of the gender wounding if you'll meet your kids and what they delight in. Go with where their passions are.

Follow them into that, even if it's not your personal inclination, right? And so, you know, there's a family I know where the son, the family's value was academics, both mom and dad, PhDs. But the son didn't want that. He actually wanted to work in carpentry. He wanted to work with his hands. They really almost broke his heart over that. Like that's menial.

You're not rising to your potential, you know, that kind of thing. And now, thankfully, he is a carpenter and loves his life. And there's been healing there. They didn't read their son well. They didn't delight in who God made him to be. If you're doing that, you're going to be fine. You're going to avoid a lot of the wounding scenario. so the stereotype it seems like there's like a bit of attention because there is this there is this

definition of a man as meant as built by God right but you're saying that that doesn't mean this is the one style that that results in it's the expression of a man can look a million different ways, is what you're saying? Not a million. Okay. Not a million. Because this is helpful to say that. That's a really helpful question.

We're not saying it's just anything and everything. Yeah. There are some pretty core attributes that I think are essential to masculinity. And I named the core, you know, the idea of courage on behalf of others. I think, but courage for one man. is to finish grad school. Courage for another man is to join the military and serve his country. Courage for a third man is to have children.

Like there are a lot of parents that are terrified to have children because of their own personal trauma stories. They don't want to repeat generational legacies. Sometimes the bravest thing you can do is become a parent. Right? So I think that there is something deeply embodied in the word strength as well, Andrew. I think there is a soulish strength that a man embodies in ways that now for some men, it ends up being physical activity and risk taking and let you know, let's go

skydiving, let's, you know, let's be archery hunters in the wilderness, let's do those things. But I would say, okay, let me, let me actually say it this way. This will be more helpful. Because strength, okay, what is that? I would say passivity in any form is antithetical to masculinity. Yeah, I like it. The video game thing comes to mind again, too, because this is something that I've changed my mind on. Your book sparked this deep interest in the topic of manhood for me. I lost my father coming up on two years ago. And then that like, I was like, oh, shoot, I got to, I got to be the type of father to my sons and my father was to me. So read books like intentional father, anxious generation of boys and men is really fascinating. Your books

have been extremely helpful. But it's, you know, the video game thing, okay, passivity, is that being passive? Or is this screen time issue? Or like, you know, the corporate, I have a lot of peers that are, like, resistant against, I'll never work at a desk job. I never want to work in a cubicle.

I think they kind of interpret that as, like, a lack of adventure or, like, or somewhat passive. and I'm curious your perspective on that because I I um it seems like there is the social constructs of gender are are wrong in the sense that we're like I think we're associating the terms wrong right so like passivity to you means something different than it would to me or like a man crying to you you know if socially it's it's maybe not seen as manly but as you define it it is like no it's actually it actually is a type of courage in some ways so it's almost like in the in the semantics of it all sometimes it is yeah and i think that especially in the social debate it is because what people

end up debating are caricatures like cartoons of what it means to be a woman what it means to be a man passivity what I mean by that is if you are hiding you are not living with courage on behalf of others right so some guys to stay in the cubicle he's hiding I've known guys who have turned down promotions because they didn't know they have what it takes and that's the core issue of a little boy every little girl every little boy has a core question for the little boy it's do i have what it takes depending on how his father answered that question is how he's behaving as a man right now okay so if he hides right or he hides behind his title you know or or his wealth um but he doesn't engage his 16 year old daughter she doesn't even

know him he's hiding okay he's checked out he's passive um So that's just a helpful tool. Am I engaged or am I withdrawing? Am I hiding? Am I playing it safe? Right? Beautifully said. Thank you for delineating that.

There's so many different ways we could go with this because we talk about this on a daily basis, raising boys, trying to foster in them their greatest attributes in a healthy way that sets them up to be. respectful kind men later on but shifting gears a little bit to husbands what are some ways that as a wife I can honor the masculinity and respect to masculinity and foster that in my husband thanks for asking the question yeah man okay um

I actually want to start with your three-year-old. Okay. And then take it into marriage. Okay. Because what you're discovering in your three-year-old is there is a wildness to boyhood. And he doesn't particularly want to wear clothes. And he wants to make loud noises. And he wants to blow stuff up.

And, you know, so what happens in marriage is most women are drawn to the wild. and then they tame it. And that's where things go bad. That's where he's going to lose heart. There is a desire for, so women have a profound inner need for a secure environment. That's a good thing, okay? But if you are controlling your husband, controlling his passions, controlling his desires, controlling his dreams,

his dreams so that you feel secure, you might be killing him. Right? Let him get the motorcycle, ladies. Let him change jobs. Let him pursue grad school. Let him chase his dreams. Like, you're going to have to let go of some control to see your husband come alive. But you were going to love the results. Because the more alive he is, the more present and engaged he's going to be. Right? Because most women's heartache is that they're lonely in their marriages. They have no access to their husband's hearts. Well, you don't want to play a part in that of shutting his heart down. Right. You want to be part of calling his heart out and up. And into freedom and the more alive he is living from the heart the more yeah it gets a little bumpy

in the marriage right but it's better than control ladies it's so much better than control beautifully said i um gosh i i'm so thankful for the way you've thought about this topic it is it almost I feel like I have permission to raise my son in a way that allows him to Yes Our son learned how to ride a bike

When he was like one and a half And then we got on this little electric Yeah And then petal No pedals And then he learned how to ride This like a little electric motorcycle And people

I don't know We're getting like Wow that seems so dangerous And I'm like Yes It is You know It's like

But we're not being reckless It's, it is, it is like, we're parenting from a slight distance, you know, because I don't, anyway, so thank you for giving this type of permission. I, um, the freedom of self topic is fascinating. Tim Keller did this really interesting series about identity. I don't know if you're familiar. It's modern identity versus traditional identity versus biblical. identity. The traditional identity is, think, like, Spartan 300s, everyone wears the same thing, does the same thing. And it's, if there's tension between the individual and the

tribe, then the individual abides by the tribe's rule. Yeah, tribe wins. Yeah, yeah. Modern identity is, if there's tension between the individual and the tribe, then the tribe is wrong, and that they should adhere to my rules as an individual. And then there's this, like really tough to peg down in some ways with the biblical identity as I'm defining it probably slightly different than than Keller may have but like it is this full freedom of self that God has made us he has made us an individual with like this beautiful responsibility or calling to the tribe to contribute and it's like how do those things how do those things actually build each other up.

So, yeah, I love how you put that. But back to Wild at Heart, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the goal of the ministry is to create a type of wholeheartedness. Yes. And I'm curious what you mean when you say that term, wholeheartedness. I don't think most people know that the purposes of God is the restoration of their humanity. I don't think they, like, I think they might understand, well, there's justice and service or there's compassion and generosity, but those things flow from, love flows from your, the

healing of your humanity. So the combined consequences of human sin and the sins of the tribe, okay, and the assaults of the kingdom of darkness, every human being living. in this world right now is living in some state of trauma that so you know it might be fundamental lack of attachment to their parents and now that's expressing itself in adult isolation you know it may it may be a whole host of things but um when jesus walks on to the scene in luke chapter four he quotes Isaiah 61. He said, he could have chosen, you know, a million other verses, like almost literally a million other verses, but he chose to say, I'm here to heal the broken and set

the captives free. The intentions of God is to get us back to Eden, right? Wholehearted humanity living in partnership with God for the great enterprise, you know, of human creativity in partnership with God. So that's not taught clearly in most gospel settings. Some version of what the tribe expects is usually what's taught. So if you're in a real fundamentalist background, it's these moral rules, or if you're in a real social justice, you know, environment, it's, you know, service. But God's intentions are to recover what was lost. The son of man, came, Jesus said, to seek and save what was lost. And so when I, when I say by wholeheartedness, I mean the, so let me first say how that happens, because it'll help to reflect what wholeheartedness is.

The soul is healed to reunion with Christ. He is divine. We are the branches. Human independence doesn't work because you're like a cut flower. Like you have no source of life. And you might look good, you know, for a while, but that flower is eventually going to wilt. You need to be attached to the God who created you. The soul is healed through union with God. And as Christ permeates our being, in some instances, we become more brave. In other instances, we become more patient. In some instances, we become able to move towards people. In other instances, we're able to move away from people when that's required. Like, what is happening is we are being conformed to the image of Jesus, right?

That's the goal. You see in him unbroken humanity. This is what we get to be, but only through a restored union with him, not by personal effort. Would you say that's the goal of your life is wholeheartedness? That's the style of your life. Well, that's a really big question. Because if you want this, you see, here's the thing. If you want the reintegration of your fragmented humanity through union with God,

if you want that life, you have to choose a life that puts you in that situation. You know, like this is the spiritual disciplines and sacred rhythms and kind of that how you live your life matters. And so, yes, I have, I am a bit of like a desert father. I have a very sacred rhythm to my life. There's an intentional way I wake up in the morning. And there's an intentional way I go to bed at night. Before we were recording, you guys were hearing the monastery bells that were ringing. in our offices at 10 and 2 every day that causes the whole staff to stop and pray.

So there are rhythms, there is a lifestyle. You have to choose because the world's going to eat you up, man, and spit you out. Like to be a human being in this current cultural context is exhausting. It is constant stimulation, constant media bombardment, that your soul will not heal unless you choose a lifestyle that's very very countercultural right now what are your rhythms john well you would need to come and spend some time with me to see that don't tempt me but yeah for example folks i can give you like some really really simple things um our phones are not in our bedroom at night okay and and part of the reason why is when you wake up in the morning the first thing you do

should not be to check your phone because you're you're in the matrix you're in the here's the crisis text here's the the angry you know email from your boss that you're late on something you're immediately taken into the world you're when you wake up in the morning you need like a sacred space that allows you to be human you make a couple of coffee. You put on some beautiful music. You say your prayers, right, before you get into the world. So that would be one example. My mornings are early because I enjoy that. They have no media, no technology. And it is prayer before anything else, right? And same thing with our evening. At the end of the day, Stacey and I will close our day with worship and prayer. And

communion we have the sacraments almost every every night because of the healing effect on the soul because of what it does does everybody resonate with that like if i'm if if if i'm not a christian do i understand what what that means do i agree with the healing effects of the soul you know well this is the really fun thing so so so um what what the neuroscience is beginning to show is that all of the ancient practices work. Like it's just, it cracks me up, including human fragmentation. So this is, you know, the big discussion in trauma now is trauma fragments the soul. Everybody knows that. How do you heal that? But you have Isaiah 61. When Jesus says, I come to heal the brokenhearted, the Hebrew is

led shabar. It literally means human fragmentation. So God knew. God knew centuries before the neuroscience, the human condition, trauma fragments, and he knew that union with him heals that. So it's a fascinating thing. Just what we're doing right now, to have someone listen to you with compassion and understanding actually heals the brain. So yeah, that the person who's not walking with Jesus yet can realize, wow, some of these ancient practices of silence and solitude, of prayer and meditation, of being very careful who's framing the narrative for you, right? Like, who is framing the narrative for you? Is it your social feed? That's a disaster game. Yeah. What does freedom mean to you, John?

It used to mean freedom to do what I want to do. It now means the ability to navigate the world without the world poisoning me. I say you've touched on so many topics that I... I know, guys.

We literally... I'm throwing stuff at them. We go through so many... philosophical debates on all of these questions and ideas daily we are literally talking about just the political climate this morning of how it's really disheartening to me that this idea of what you're just talking about having someone compassionately listen and understand and be curious is the way we talk about it but to see the complete opposite the evil that's taken over it where people are no longer curious. They're just hateful. There's no way I could ever sit down and ask you a question because you have a different belief.

Is contagious? And Andrew and I talk about a lot how the question you brought up of, if I'm not a believer, does this even make sense? It's that concept of like, we obviously are eating this up. We love it. everything about this. This is our foundation in our life, where we read about this every single day and we are believers.

But how do you take your neighbor, who's not a believer, who's wound up in this evil, who isn't curious enough to have a conversation, who is restricted by this belief that

if I become a believer, I'm giving up my freedom of self, my freedom to do anything that I want, which I feel like I'm granted on a daily basis, how do you even get them to open the door to these ideas? Well, Jesus has this great line where he says, you will know them by their fruit. You can test anything with that. You can just ask them, so how's it going?

how's it going, you know, being spun up by politics? Do you like that condition of being really spun up right now? No, I hate it. It's frying me. Did you know that anxiety and depression rise in direct correlation to the amount of time you spend on social media? Maybe, and you can just, like, this is actually discipleship of a pre-Christian. You can say, maybe you should cut down your media intake.

In fact, right now, I think you should just. just get off all media. Get out of the election news right now because you are, you're literally putting yourself in a constant state of agitation. It's not good for the soul. Why don't you take your dog for a walk? Really, it's like basic discipleship. You're teaching them to disentangle from the world. Right? And so you ask, John, what are your sacred rhythms? For example, my media intake is very, very small. You know, I'll check the headlines. I'll take a quick look at a couple different news sources in the morning after my prayers. What's going on in the world? What do I need to be praying about? You know, but I don't live there because if you live there, that is, that is

guaranteed going to spin you up. It's going to fry you. And it gets to shape the narrative for you. Right. I think for you to listen to your neighbor with compassion. and go, yeah, these things are really upsetting. They really are. Why don't we play cards? Why don't we go play pickleball together? Why don't we just, let's get out of this. So I know, for example, right now that my youngest son and daughter,

youngest, meaning, you know, 30, they're really, really spun up by the election. And so my text to him this morning was, hey where do you want to go fishing i just had to get him to like literally change the direction of his attention right and and put his attention on something joyful yeah it is uh the neuroscience of it all so we're we're in the process of writing a book and just in our in our line of work i felt compelled to go back to school and i'm working on a phd in psychology and doing it through Liberty University, which I went to Vanderbilt for undergrad and for business school, never had

like a biblical worldview of education. It has been so delightful. Everything we do, you have to tie it back to scripture or like the biblical worldview. And it really is incredible to see all of these like Silicon Valley gurus saying, hey, you know, digital Sabbaths are, are in, you know, are like, you should look into this. And it's like, well, the Sabbath has really been a thing for a while buddy or like you know shared table eating together it's like all the science of how how good the effects of that are it's like yeah well you know this is rather a biblical concept and it is um even like prayer you know it's like we have a buddy who like we're doing this book together and it's the the power of praying husband and anyway it's like he's he's saying how positive

his marriage has been affected and I don't think he would say he believes in Jesus but I'm like yeah well think about it's it's amazing because you're stopping and reflecting you're stopping in like almost vision casting like what do I actually want you're stopping in like there's this aspect of humility regardless of if you believe or not and it's uh and then it's like you you add on to that this aspect of miracles and like that God is actually in control of that conversation and Anyway, it's like there are these wonderful tangential side effects of these biblical practices, and I think they come so much more to life when you actually believe with your heart. So anyway, it's been cool to dig into that a little bit.

Yeah, isn't it? It's really beautiful. Yeah, yeah. So one of the books you wrote was Get Your Life Back, all about technology, right? What was your conclusion with that? your life back is about sacred rhythms okay it's about living a life that is designed by your choice you're making deliberate choices here is my lifestyle that results in the life you want peacefulness and generosity and love and intimacy with God you have to choose that it's not

just a Sunday experience or even just morning prayers, you know, that's not enough to sustain that life. What's fascinating is get your life back, came out right before the pandemic. And then everybody got trashed by the quarantines and the fear and the narrative and, you know, all of that. The hostility, you know, the deep cultural divisions. There is a way. you can live that it is that your humanity is designed for there is a way things work that that's like one of the most fundamental lessons of childhood right there's a way things work you can't put your hand on the hot stove right you can't ride your bike with no brakes down the big hill you right there's a way things work and and that's true of how god created us and how he created our union with

him to work. And so if you'll choose those sacred rhythms, one of the really surprising ones to people and get your life back is beauty. I talk about the power of beauty in our humanity. Beauty heals the soul. Beauty heals trauma. Most people don't surround themselves with beauty. Like listen to beautiful music. Make your home or apartment a beautiful place to be. When you see something beautiful in the world, the frost on the window pain, the bird song, you stop and you let it in. Like beauty is something we need to actually be nourishing ourselves with. And most people don't think about that, especially in a tech saturated world. So there's a way. There's a way God created human beings to live. And if you want to thrive as a human being, you come back

into alignment with the way things work. Yeah, the idea of freedom is so, like, because that's kind of, there are rules that come with, but instead of the result of that being a feeling of restriction, you're saying it actually unlocks, the rules unlock flourishing. I don't want to be redundant and say freedom again, like that that idea just does not come naturally to the human brain i don't think uh well because of the independent self yeah but guys you know this about your body if you drink eight cups

of coffee this morning you're going to be fried if you only eat donuts you're like you're going to has so much anxiety and depression your body is reacting there's there are rules there are rules to human flourishing so like when jesus said the way is narrow the way to human flourishing is narrow he wasn't being restrictive he was just being honest a lot of the stuff that jesus says he's just being honest. He's like, well, that doesn't work. You hold bitterness in your heart towards your neighbor. That doesn't work. There's a way things work. I'm going to jump again to one more. Since we covered raising boys, masculinity, I want to take a small moment to talk about girls. We have a five-year-old daughter, and we have learned firsthand through trial and

even, but it's so blatant that the needs of little boys and little girls is vastly different. Yes, love across the board, but the way my daughter learns versus my son, their activities, their attention

spans, their relationships with us are completely different. As a father of three boys, but also someone who has seen so many cases, How do you think raising daughters is fundamentally different than raising boys?

You are going to be forced into a level of relating that your boys are not going to ask of you. If you wrestle with your boys, it's gold. Relational cup is full, not so for little girls. There's narrative. there's there's talking things through it takes time i am in the most beautiful moment so i'm a grandfather now i have granddaughters i got these precious little girls seven years old six years old my my six-year-old granddaughter i absolutely love it because her basic rule is you don't get access unless you relate to me those are her terms there's no No, quick. Okay, okay, okay. Come on. Let's get this. No, no, no, no. It's like, look me in the eye. Relate to me. So women are relational geniuses. And you're going to watch that develop in your daughters. And that's got to be honored. You have to set a pace even of your mourning that makes room for that, right? You can't just blow through relationship, which is like, that's gorgeous.

that's fantastic thank you ladies i think he said that so perfectly sean's been trying to tell me that for like three years it's different he's he has struggled so much with our daughter in in such a beautiful way like you he's been desperate to have this intimacy with her that you're so close to having but you're also just this giant kid that wants to always have fun And having a daughter first, he always just wanted to wrestle. He just wanted to go straight and like, let's wrestle, let's play, let's have fun. And she is. She's that like, you've got to warm up.

She shuts it down. You got to talk, you got to cuddle. You got to get on her level. You got to. And then once it's there, man, she's open for business. But I've been, thank you. Isn't that fantastic? Oh, it's comical.

Because like our son, no, no, no. wrestle first we might cuddle later it takes so much more thought i've found yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's good uh i am i'm curious so you are more like you're this man's man you know traditional adventures your books talk about being up in the mountains hunting like that that more traditional form of adventure that maybe not everybody relates to so so when say someone's interested in reading your books but maybe they are more emotive what do you say to them to lessen that maybe intimidation factor or like yeah hey i'm not like that yeah i would tell them that hey this isn't about becoming a lumberjack um he's actually a really

sensitive guy. Yeah. And what the phrase I like that John uses is warrior poet, you have to be both. Yes, there's courage, bravery, but there's also sensitivity and intuition that are part of the masculine soul that need to be cultivated. I think you can say things like that. I think say you're going to be really surprised by this book because this isn't about college football. Yeah. Well, I was just going to ask him about the series and how many of these

videos do we get to watch? Is it just ongoing? I hope so, because I think five have come out so far. So season one is five. Yeah, five episodes. And what we wanted to do was we asked ourselves if very few people read anymore. And just the whole book world is not what it used to be. span has literally been rewroteed by the internet that neuroscience shows that too if we were to start today what would we do we said oh we'd make we'd make we tell stories we tell stories through film so we went and found some of our closest pals who we knew were reliable their marriage is not blowing up they don't have a secret hidden life you know there's no addictions here we ask them

Can we tell your healing story? Because they came from brokenness into healing through a journey. Like, can we tell your journey? Can we tell your story? And so that's what Wild at Heart the series is. Are these beautiful, beautiful films that take people through a narrative. It's not teaching. It's storytelling.

And it's a look into somebody's life. And what's so beautiful, this is fascinating about group therapy. If you're sitting in group therapy and you're sitting in group therapy, and you are not the focus of attention, you get 70% of the healing. Have you run into that yet in your studies? Not that. That's fascinating. Oh, it's fascinating. That's why it works. That's why small group works, right?

So when you hear someone else's story, it helps you understand your own. And so that's why we put these stories out there. Yeah, season one's out, and we're praying about. season two man they they really are beautiful the stories and the cinematography just extremely well done so thanks yeah no great job on that we'll link that for the listeners to check out down below thanks but uh i also i'll just close and you can ask maybe one last question i i mean this stuff matters so much and your engagement in this topic is really i think courageous and impactful if for no one else but me and my family so thank you and uh and i you know you just look at the

statistics of men and how they are faring in today's world and the education graduation rates are declining the imprisonment and crime rates are increasing suicide rates between male and like there is a statistical difference between males and females And I think you talking about what does it mean to be a man is part of the solution to help alleviate some of those problems. So thank you. Yes. Especially to say to guys, it's not an embarrassment to be wounded. Because men experience any level of brokenness as shame.

But if we can get that stigma off of it, And we can get guys into healing context. We can heal guys. But, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. I could talk for another seven hours with you, John. But it is, so like the men don't cry, I think stems from that, stems from the idea that, hey, maybe I don't have what it takes, and maybe the tears are an indication that I don't have what it takes.

Or maybe my brokenness is an indication that I don't have what it takes. but I think like I think working through all of the emotions and all of the difficulties is like just that practice is what it means to have what it takes you know it's not like having what it takes

means to be perfect yeah that's not it's not I'm making the most money and I'm the most athletic and I'm living in the biggest house it's like no I have what it takes to take the next step yeah and continue yeah

and to have the courage to let people into your story. I just wanted to ask about your new book coming out in March, Experience Jesus, really. Give us your... Just tell us about it, because we'll be the first to buy it. Well, God is not an idea. He's a person. and he is a highly relational person as witnessed by human beings, right?

If we bear his image, people have not experienced God. They may have heard about him. They may have read stories. They may pray. They may study the scriptures, but most people have not had an experiential life. with God. But Jesus came to bridge that gap. The whole idea of him showing up in humanity and the incarnation, his presence. The wonderful news is you get to experience Jesus every day. You get to experience his help, his presence, his

joy, his protection. If you engage it, just like everything else we've been talking about. If you will engage, you can have a phenomenal life in God. That's what the book's about. Love it. What a delight this hour was. Thank you for the time. Wasn't this fun? Yeah, we could keep going. Yeah, we could. But I know you have your normal rhythms to get back to and thank you for including us in that today. So So for those listening, if you want to learn more about John and his books, also the Wild Heart series, we'll include some helpful links down below. But this was an absolute pleasure. Thanks, guys.

It was an honor to be with you. Thank you. Thank you.