Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - Our Story, Our Faith, Our New Book | Steven & Mary Beth Chapman

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

OUR BOOK IS FINALLY HERE! https://thecouragetocommit.com/ This week, we're honored to sit down with legendary Christian artist Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife Mary Beth Chapman for the second time on this podcast! Together, they share the remarkable story of their marriage, family, faith, and the experiences that shaped their lives. We talk about the challenges they've faced, the lessons they've learned through loss and heartbreak, and the hope that has carried them forward. We also dive into their newest book and the stories they felt compelled to share for the first time. This is an honest, inspiring conversation about resilience, faith, family, and what it takes to keep moving forward when life doesn't go as planned. find more about Steven & Mary Beth here! https://showhope.org/about-us/founders-story/?ads_cmpid=23390702105&ads_adid=&ads_matchtype=&ads_network=x&ads_creative=&utm_term=&ads_targetid=&utm_campaign=&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&ttv=2&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23395102279&gbraid=0AAAAADtVAwWvP3iq39NVK0lBsxFuu395O&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrs7RBhDuARIsAIVfBD3KAQMjTBmk4m-0IfIpK3ruAt43XkuxXN1xtyvog7tRcXSeSs4PeocaApj4EALw_wcB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Welcome back to a couple of things interviews. With Sean and Andrew. Today we have Maribeth Chapman and Stephen Curtis Chapman, who I would say are our mentors. I love these too. Honestly, we should just have the podcast be with them as co-host because that would be a blast. I think I want to adopt a kid now. I am in love with them.

Yeah, they're great. They started a nonprofit organization that helps people through the adoption process. That's part of their story. Stephen Curtis Chapman, if you don't know, is one of the. the greatest Christian artists of all time. Artist period of all time. One of the greatest artists of all time. Thank you.

Yeah. That's right. And honestly, what I love about them, though, is Mary Beth, his wife, is. Runs a show. Yeah. She is so awesome. To hear their wisdom on so many things in life, I truly believe and like stand by the statement that we see them as mentors and really are excited to have you all listen to

what they have to say. That's right. And they just came out the new book. If you want to learn more about that, then check it out down below. Thank you, Stephen Curtis, and Mary Beth for joining us. How long have you all been buried? Dear. 10 years this year.

Yeah. We're getting up there. Wait, how long have we been married? 41 years, baby. It'll be 42. See, hey, can we get that on film on whatever, please? My wife just asked me how many years are we married. So today is Emily's 40th birthday.

So we call her this morning, you know, Tanner and her on away for the way for the last. the weekend I called talking to her and she goes well mom I told the girls Grammy was 39 when she dropped me off at Baylor I turned 40 after I took Emily to college wow crazy so it's just time's weird right it's just a weird when you were 20 when you got married I was 19 okay then I was 21 I got pregnant and then they just turned 21 and then she was born so this isn't like a one-up session here but my parents oh got married at 16 yeah They've been married, 45 years.

I can't do math for them. 47 years. Wow. Yeah. My mom and dad, I'll run up you. They're born in 59. Are they are? They're born in 59.

No, my dad was born in 35. Okay. They just celebrated 71. Yeah. That's amazing. Isn't that crazy? And they're just, you know, they're starting to really, it's getting really hard. We have all four of our parents living.

So it's a whole other. That's incredible. That's really crazy. I know. So we're trying to, my parents in particular are really, their health is becoming a full-time thing. Yeah. Anyhow, but yeah, they're 71 years, still very sharp mentally.

Amazing. Memory stuff, but there's just their bodies. Yeah. Anyhow. No one's going to say that about me because no one's ever said that about me ever. Oh, so. Never said that. Not too sharp. He's mentally solid.

He's so sharp. Hey, I'll say it. I'm saying it, bro. Do y'all have any questions for we formally? No, we were excited because we've done this before. Thank you for having us back. We were trying to remember how many years has it been. It's been a hot minute.

When did your 50th number one come out? Just that's what it was. Yeah. Was it around that? It was right before. I was stressed, dude. I feel like, yeah, it was right before that release. Oh, yeah, years ago.

No, no, no. That was don't lose heart. Oh, that's don't. 50th number one. one was don't lose heart, which was like 22, 23. Yeah. So it's been three years, maybe two, three, yeah, about three years. Where's the time go?

Wow. That's crazy. Well, fortunately, Sean and I's whole agenda when we started this show seven years ago was to have you guys on not once but twice. So now mission accomplished. Yeah, we can retire now. Well, it shows over. Honestly, that was one of the most fun conversations we've had.

So not to set expectations high today, but it's so good to have you guys back. Congrats on the 50th number one. Thank you. That is so cool. Congrats on the joining the Opry. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

That's crazy. Amazing. Oh my gosh. What took them so long? Yeah. Truly. Yeah. Well, and that is, you know, spoiler, I guess, but that's the point of this is to, you know, give away

some of the fun things we get to talk about in this book that we wrote together still here. because the last chapter we tell the story about my Opry invitation and then induction in the Grand Ole Opry. But my wife was really the champion of that, and I have to give her all of the credit. Oh, chucks. Because she did. A few years ago, she was like, you know what, your whole thing started at Opryland. I mean, that was my first job, was working at the park when we used to have. Did you guys ever go to Opryland?

what that was. Okay. Yeah. There was an amusement park. Nope. Didn't do that. You didn't know the amusement park. No, I don't know. No, I'm talking about it. It's Opry Mills Mall now, but that was like the coolest. Yeah. It was like a Dollywood, if you know, if you know that at all. So it's kind of a small, but super cool little amusement park. And I grew up going to it. So my church group would come from Kentucky, and we'd go to Opry land. That was a big deal. And they had rides and, you know,

a few things. And, but they had live music shows. And they were really great shows because it was Music City and it was Nashville. And so that was my first kind of gig professional job out of high school. I graduated from high school in 1981. My brother and I both got hired for summer jobs at Opryland. And I was in a country music show. And we would dress up like George Jones and, you know, all the country music stars of history and current and come out.

And I've got some great pictures of all of my wearing the. Porter Wagner suits and all the stuff. And we come out and sing and do our little thing. And I got asked to sing on the Grand Ole Opry. They would invite kids from the park, kind of like, hey, let's showcase some of the kids, you know, and future stars, I think they called it, you know, the future stars of country music or music. Wow.

And I got invited to come sing. I sang George Jones. He stopped loving her today. A great country song. Forgot the words. And on the Grand Ole Opry, like, lost my place. I mean, it was everything. Every nightmare, if you ever watch American Idol, it was like all the nightmares that happened on that.

And this was my big moment. My dad's dream was to be on the Grand Ole Opry someday. He was there. He was just so proud. And my mom, my brother, and I forgot the words, and it was just a whole deal. But that's arguably where my whole kind of journey started was on the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. And Opry land, which was built right around the Grand Ole Opry house, right outside the doors was where the park was. And so all these years later, you know, I get to go.

back and start doing it regularly as, you know, an artist now and all that. And so my wife very lovingly, uh, supportively said, if there was ever an artist from Christian music, that ought to be in the grand old opera, it ought to be seen Curtis Jammer because, you know, it's where it all started and it's in his DNA. And I mean, I grew up with bluegrass music. I'm named after my dad's best friend. Yeah, I'm from Kentucky. And my dad's best friend who was a dobro player who played on the grand old opera, Jack Curtis Martin. where my middle name comes from. So it's all woven in to my story.

And so it was very, very, very cool when that happened. That was kind of like just an amazing taste and see. The Lord is good moment for us. I want to hear about how this book came to be. And what I'm so excited, and I feel like you guys capture better than so many couples that we know, is like the joy of just having the depth of all of these stories and like the little nuances.

of every one of them too. You know, we were talking about that show we did Special Forces and like, it's one thing to say, oh, we had to do the Army crawl through the sand. And it's another thing for Sean to know that when I say that,

it's like, oh man, there's glass shards there and you won't know the pain. It was like 2 a.m. After a full day, we're shivering. Like all of those little details that just are unnecessary or crazy that you can't capture. But you guys have lived a life

full of those stories. Yeah. And it's so, fun and i think you guys show the fun of it all so beautifully well so i had the book come to be yeah well you want me to lead off and i'll be your color commentary yes yes she'll she'll tell all the stories in between that we'll add it out later um no you know we've been asked um so 41 years uh of of our journey together our great adventure when early on uh four or five years into our journey I wrote a song called I Will Be Here that was written out of my mom and dad's divorce actually,

which was a really painful thing because my parents were kind of the, they were our sort of standard. That was the bar, like their marriage, they were, they counseled people. You know, they were really solid. And so it just really sort of pulled the rug out from under both of us, especially me as a son, but both of us. And it was heartbreaking, and they were heartbroken. and it was a whole deal and I, you know, love them so much and they're doing great, you know, now.

But it's just, it was a thing that out of that I wrote this song for Mary Beth because really we looked at each other and it was like, look, we thought they had it all together. It actually kind of scared us. It was like, oh. Yeah. If they didn't make it because, I mean, I heard them say it hundreds of times, divorce is not even a word in our vocabulary. It's not even an option. We're taking that off the table. And then suddenly kind of out of nowhere, it was like.

they were divorced. And so we really at that point, it just, it did kind of scare us and it kind of shook us to say, wow, just saying it is not enough. And that was where we, the first time we ever walked in a counselor's office, because we had a lot of stuff and a lot of baggage and a lot of mess. But we didn't, we just kind of, we weren't ignoring it, but it's like we didn't know how to deal with it. And all of a sudden it's like, look, we need to deal with it.

But I wrote this song, I will be here out of that for her. And it's interesting because. It came out of such a just a determination of, no matter what happens, no matter how we feel tomorrow morning or whatever day, I really want to honor this promise to you and this vow before God. And I'm going to trust him that he's going to give us what we need to honor that commitment to each other, whatever comes. And so I wrote the song, well, it almost immediately turned into a very popular wedding song, which was crazy because I did not expect. I'm like, this is not a wedding song. It's not happy, you know, flowers and, you know, rose petals. It's like tomorrow morning, if you wake up and the sun does not appear, I will be here.

You know, it's a song about when it's not amazing and awesome and like it feels on a wedding. But out of that song and just the popularity of that and people, you know, begin to ask us, you guys should write a book pretty quickly. And so we sat down with some people and tried. And we were like, you know, we're never going to sit with a blank page and go, you know, it was a dark and stormy night. You know, in the beginning. Like, we don't have time.

And or the, you know, the capacity for that. We're not writers in that sense. I write songs. And she was raising, you know, all of our babies and doing amazing things. But it was like, we don't have time for that. And every time it just never felt right. And it felt honestly like people write books once they, I mean, you know, I want to read the Sean Johnson book, you know, of how I, you know, won gold medals or, you know,

know, the, you know, how we survive the, you know, after it's over. We survive special forces and here we are. And we're going to tell the story. But marriage books usually you think this is, you got to know what you're talking about. And we were always painfully aware of the fact that painfully aware. We can write the book on what not to do, but we have not figured this thing out. And, but we would try anyway. After 41 years, we were probably four or five years ago, we were approached again. And I think we both sort of looked at each other. and said, you know what, we still, you know, we're still figuring this out. We feel like we've made every mistake you can make.

But by God's grace, the fact that we are still here and on this journey together, and have had these amazing moments that now, and incredibly difficult and dark moments, and it really is, is not like just you throw out there the grace of God. It is only because of his grace and his faithfulness that we're still here. Why? Why is that the case? Why is it the grace of God that you're still there? Because we haven't, because we've made every mistake.

We've blown it. We've, and God, but God has held us together because we just kept saying, God, we really, we need you. We're desperate. We, a lot of repentance, a lot of forgiveness, and just grace, just his grace. I think to the different periods of time where we would try to sit. with people and they would try to like draw out whatever wisdom they would be able to put into a book. It just, it never felt like it was the right time. So when, when this time came around and we met an amazing man named Lawrence Kimbrough who worked on the project with us and just as a

amazing pastor, teacher, theologian, friend, writer. And I think he really helped us continually to drill down these like each when it turned into like 10 chapters like each chapter and each kind of like little nugget and again I told Steve I said boy we can this cannot be like marketed or we can we have to make sure that people don't think this is a how to book because this is about as far from how to because we still like you said we still feel like we're figuring it out but what it did help us figure out is when you ask you know how is it just the just the grace of God it's because I think or I don't think, I know it's because we've both made a decision. And I think if you drill this book all the way down to bear with one another in love.

And that is, yeah, that's if I could say, you'd probably don't have to really read the book, but I probably shouldn't say that because it's really, it's got a lot of other good stuff in it too. But it's just really, we made a decision to bear with one another in love, which is, as you guys know, you've been married for a long time now. That's way easier said than done. And who wants to do that on any given day? I'm a sinner married to a worse sinner. No, I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding. But, you know, just making that choice to go, yeah, to just bear with one another in love and go, okay, that's probably worth telling some stories about Caleb, our secondborn, was asked to write. I don't even know what he was asked to write it for, but an article about. his parents or, you know, talking somewhere in the, or his journey or whatever. And one of the sentences he used it was, he was really, really honor and it was really, really sweet to read it. But one of the things he said that really caught us in a moment of, well, maybe those are stories then we can tell to encourage others along the way because, well, and it's basically Caleb saying, my parents have not done everything right, but they hobble. They hobble through life in that,

but they hobble well. And I'm like, oh, I can talk about that. I can talk about that. I can about how we've had to take two steps forward and several steps back plenty of time, right? I think we live in a time where it's very easy to put on our Instagrams and our social media, all the things that look like it's going well and all the things we want people to know. And I don't think it's any surprise that we don't put a lot of those really hard things. Like, oh, I didn't, you know, we had a massive argument today and we're going to post about it, You know, just, and I think because of that, because of Stephen and Mary Beth Chapman, maybe there's people who might assume that it's gone a whole lot smoother and easier

than all the bumps and bruises along the way. Not that, I don't want to sound like gloom and doom, but just choosing this person who I chose to love at the very beginning of our marriage and am still going to choose that, you know, all the way to the end. Hopefully it will be an encouragement, right? Yeah. I think it's a huge encouragement. I remember that from talking to you guys

almost three years ago now. I remember the weight of just how you spoke about things realistically. And you didn't paint things as like the perfect picture, but also even though it was messy, it was so beautiful. I truly remember that. I remember that about parenthood and about marriage. And it was so inspiring. And I feel like similar to what you guys said about your parents

and dealing with a divorce, I feel like for some reason, we've hit that phase in life where it seems like the people we idolize for better or worse. Yeah. We've seen fall. Yeah.

And it's made us even in our marriage go, wait, are we okay? Because I thought they were perfect. And it's made, it makes you not question, but wonder if you're doing things right. And I also think, to your point,

Mary Beth, of social media, people paint marriage today as if it's not perfect, don't stay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. How would you encourage people? How would you convince people? I feel like it's almost trying to teach people about God,

which is really hard to summarize in an elevator pitch. But how do you convince people that it's actually better to stay, even though it's so messy? Yeah. Well, first thing, I'll have to probably, the caveat is obviously, there are times when you shouldn't stay. For sure. I don't want to.

Absolutely. Someone who is really dealing with a lot of pain and such, obviously. I'm not the professional. However, I think the Lord and His graciousness again, even giving us the story of his sweet, sweet mother and father who, you know, we just, we love them dearly and would have prayed for a different outcome, did pray for a different outcome. I watched him and his brother, Stephen and his brother, almost begin parenting his mom and dad, trying to help them understand. I think what I would say is it is worth it. We have taken so many steps forward and so many steps back there.

You know, I think Stephen has had, I think our family has had a huge target on our chest. Like, oh, we're going to be pro family. We're going to be pro-adoption. we're going to be, you know, pro Jesus, I'm going to give my life to the ministry. And don't think for a moment that the enemy does not want to tear that down in any way. I feel like in a lot of ways, even our accident was a fatal blow from the enemy trying to just destroy anything and everything that had to do with our family, our legacy and whatnot. so very aware of the enemy force in that. And then also willing that it's worth it because of all the promises that God is enough and that we can do this.

And then I'm going to choose this person every day, even when I don't want to choose this person every day. Because there may be times when I'm so much trying to that check him. Hypothetically. Hypothetically. Purely. But there's so many things and so many. periods of our life that we could talk about when it was really dark, when it was really hard. But I will tell you this story is when our oldest daughter, Emily, got married.

Her and her husband moved to Ireland to finish their education. They went to Bible College for a year. And then Emily studied at Queen's University to get her master's and then Tanner stayed to do his undergrad in theology. And surprise, surprise, that's when the first baby came along, Eile. And so our first grandbaby was born in Ireland. And Stephen and I had an aha moment was standing. The story is in the book as well. Standing at the crib of our oldest daughter's first born, our first granddaughter.

You talk about, is it worth it? Yeah. That could have been forfeited. I mean, that was a very hard time. Yeah. And it was a dark. It was a hard time for us. It was not that long after we lost Maria.

Yeah. It wasn't that long after we lost Maria. Just the number. The number, the depression and the dark that I had gone through, you know, trying to love our family well, trying to get them the right kind of help, loving our son. Then, you know, you're celebrating at the peak, you know, this is our first grandbaby. And she came along. She was such a surprise.

You know, Emily was in the middle of writing her master's thesis and all that. But, I mean, literally a physical picture of a little baby who's nursery in Ireland, everything so small like we literally decorated a closet for her little nursery and standing there. It was a really profound moment that there's there's been a lot. It's been a lot. There's been some really hard, hard days. And yet here we stand beating up, worn, weathered and all the things. A few more wrinkles on our fingers. Battle scars. All the things. And yet here we stand holding hands looking at this little person who is going to call us Grammy and Pop Pops and we're going to get to participate in this together. And so, I mean, that's one way. I just think, guys, think about that, right? Like,

what if you had to do that separately? And again, there are, I don't say that with any condemnation of people who are walking those individual dreams because God's grace and love is, covers that. And yet for us, it was just such a profound picture of, we could have missed it. We could have missed this moment together. And so, wow. And I have that hope, you know, hope is just such a powerful important, I mean, you know, part of marriage of anything of life, you know, I mean, it's like this. And that is not what our culture and our world and music and movies and everything is so built, for the most part, around, you know, what are you feeling right now? What is it? I mean, and love, you know, romantic love and all of that is so amazing and feels so great. But it, like, that's what

has been presented, you know, for the most part of what love really is. And if it doesn't feel like that, or if that's the ultimate goal and that is, you know, when that wanes or that goes away or it's whatever. And, but to have hope, you know, I'm thinking of the scripture, you know, even talks about Jesus, you know, for the hope set before him, he endured the cross, you know, it was because of a hope of what was to come. That's what hope is. You know, it's what we have fully real. We have fully real. but we believe and know. And that is, you know, for us to have that set before us as in our marriages and as a couple to say, these are the things that we will only get to, you know, and only get to experience

and enjoy together, you know, that would still have happened, but to stand there, that's why it was so profound for us because we were, we were, it was such a hard time and it was fresh after losing our youngest daughter and all of that, but to stand there and just have this incredible moment and to get to, you know, do that together and have our arms around each other with all the heaviness and all the sadness. But this was just such a profound one of those moments we'll never forget. Just, wow, we get to experience this together. What we could have missed. Yeah, what we could have missed. And it is, that's the last chapter in the book is called it's worth it, you know, because it just, that's the hope that we feel like if we can keep encouraging,

we have to keep encouraging our own hearts of that. And God's put people in our lives throughout our journey to keep, you know, kind of stoking the fire of hope of, hey, I know right now this feels like this, but, man, there's, there's so much goodness, you know, as you continue. It's out there, but keep, keep on the journey. I do. I think, too, it's a good reminder for us because we do live in, you know, 2026, a lot of our culture is about self-care, self-love, which is not a bad thing, right? it's very good to take care of ourselves, very good to like, I was going to talk to you about

creatine later. Like, come on. Let's talk about it. Like, right, it's all good stuff. It's on love. I'm like, seriously. You should take it. I mean, really.

And I'm like, I'm 61 and I'm like, I need some self-love. I mean, you know, all the things. It's all good. But we also, you know, it's, and I've been, you know, we've been a little nervous because can we talk about sacrificial love? Like, what does it look like to maybe not have my way? you know, and maybe have to sacrificeally go, okay, you know, we've got to bear with one another in love. And it might be his idea that wins today and not my idea.

And all the things, right, to consider is not probably the most popular, right, today to talk about that. Because I think I would probably get myself in trouble. but, you know, a lot of, you know, the word submit to your husband. I mean, that just sounds, I don't even know if I should say it, but it's scriptural and, you know, making, you know, him, you know, knowing that he's ahead of our home. And yeah, I'm a very, very strong, you know, it's like big, fat Greek wedding. I'm the neck. I can turn the head in any direction I want to. You know that to be true.

No, you know, but just, you know, how do you work in that really glorious, mysterious, mysterious. description, you know, in the Bible that talks. That's so complimentary that allows, you know, Sean to work within her strength, clearly a strong, gutsy woman. And, you know, how do you, you know, come under his leadership as a leader of your home? It's like, it's scary, right, to talk about that because you, you know, you don't want the comment. You don't want the negative comment. But, but I have, you know, this idea or I want to be this. It's not that. It's just how do we really, um, sacrificeally love each other so that that becomes what is the most important, which is not easy for me. Anybody that knows me, they're listening to it right now going, that's Marybeth. She's one of the strong, you know, strongest, you know, strongest headed women that I know.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. It took a strong one to marry me, that's for sure. See, he's squishing my hand really tight. No, that's a love squish. It's not a. I will say. I needed a really strong one to marry me too. Yeah.

Yeah. But isn't it sweet that you have that? He's not going anywhere. And like you can just rail against him. And he's like, gosh, really? Okay. She gets to rail against people. Like, you're just there, right?

You're there for her. I will say, I don't know why I'm even bringing this up. It's out of context. But it was funny. We were having a TIF this morning. Like, arguing about something. What? Yeah.

What? I don't know. And. you mentioned something about your kids the stumbling along or hobbling along hobbling well I will never this is this will be a core memory of mine because I think we've maybe done something right

but our four year old just comes running into the kitchen and we're not like yelling at each other by any means but like there's a tip and he gets right in the middle of us he looks at Andrew he looks at me he said just apologize and then he runs out of the room and I was like okay I think he said waiting on you to apologize. Really?

Oh man. Yeah. Mike dropped, four-year-olds. Seriously. They're the little people in your lives are the truth bombs, right? But completely like... Put his underwear on backwards and cut his lace. Unaffected by any of it.

He's just like, wait, yeah. And I was like, oh. Okay. I'm curious, could y'all come up with a synonymous phrase to love or bear with one another in love? Can you try to take it that for me? a synonymous like say it differently

okay it's hard to yeah how do you how do you say it different I mean the reason that verse that that phrase is so key for us is I just think people have over the years said

what's what is the what's the secret you guys are married your kids like hanging with you you know that I mean this is kind of weird kind of rare you know to see and you guys really seem to enjoy each and, you know, we see you, you know, you guys are, you did it. What's the secret? And we really do.

We sort of look at these there and go, do we tell them the truth? We have no idea. We don't know the secret. It's just, it's all of it. It's a lot of prayer. It keeps showing up. But we have often said, there's that verse in scripture that that says bear with one another in love. Love bears all things. That's first Corinthians 13. It's one of those words that you don't really hear often. Because it sounds like, oh, man, I don't have to bear with, I mean, I get it. I'm supposed to, you know, bear with each other, but in marriage, like, that means, you know, that implies that you're going to have failures and flaws and disappointments and hurts that you're going to carry. Baring something.

It means you're, you know, I mean, we joke and say, you know, and you first get married, you're like, I'm all about bearing with you, baby. It's a wrong bear. But I'm like, but when you have to. start bearing B, E, A, R-A-R-ing. Yeah, it's just, that's a different kind of, I'm still for it, but that's another subject. That's the next show.

That's the next podcast. We'll come back in three years. Yeah, we'll come back. Yeah, we'll come back. But it is, I think for us, you know, because here, I'll go a little rabbit trail, but this is something

that I think is just worth saying, because one of the reasons we didn't write a book, is most of the books that I feel like we would pick up over the years are written by people that, and you read it. And usually for us within the first few pages, chapter or two in, I'm like, we've screwed up everything on every page. And we'd go to the marriage conferences. And we literally would sit there and be like, we're so posed. We don't think we're doing any of this right, you know. And we need to have, you know, this.

your date night and do this and do that and do that and it's like man we need to okay yeah and then so it sets you up for kind of just this sense of you know failure and frustration and i think it maybe took at least me because i'm a very slow learner a lot of years to figure out that you know what there's some really good things and please don't hear me taking anything away from the great books and counselors and and marriage family and marriage ministries that have been built that have helped a lot of people. We've been helped by them, I'm sure. But we, they're so often, I guess for us, because we're both just, I want to do it right. Give me the book.

We'll figure it out, man, we'll do it right. And then to realize, well, you're not doing it right. Or, you know, you're not doing that. You're supposed to do this part. And if I'm doing that part and it can set you up. And for us, maybe that's where that, if there's a secret, it's like, maybe we're never, you know, we're not going to figure this stuff out. And it was kind of a revelation, I think, to us, certainly to me, that scripture never said, okay, get it all right. And once you,

you do this, you do that, and you'll get it, you know, then you get it right. That's the goal. The goal is lay your life down for the other person. Consider the other one more important than yourself, you know humble yourself um you know and even if you're following jesus pick up your cross and die to yourself and and as it relates to one another bear with each other and love carry the weight of disappointment and it hurt and all of that and that's going to make you go to god and have to trust more on his grace and more of what it's all about anyway it's tim keller says what if god's idea of marriage is a whole lot more about making us holy than it is about making us happy. And that isn't a message that we hear and maybe even enter marriage with. It's like,

man, you complete me. And you do. But that completing process is sometimes a lot more painful and harder than it seems. But as we do go into that process, we start to discover what God, I think, really meant marriage to be all about. Yeah, it didn't take us very long at all. I'm not even sure we were back from our honeymoon before we scheduled our first counseling appointment because it was like pretty apparent pretty quickly uh-oh, you know, I don't think loving someone just just pure, I love you, I love you, I love you

is going to be enough but early in our marriage we went one of the many counselors that we've been to we have built wings onto many people that are within earshot of this podcast but we went to see this counselor and he had us do this personality test. I don't remember which one. There's been a myriad we have taken them all. And he sits us down to show us our results.

And however my results were grafted and however Stephen's results were grafted, mine started here and went up, his started up and went down. And when you laid him in trying, it just made a big X. And it was like, he goes, I think I know the issue. I found the problem. X marks the spine. But isn't that true, though? I think so often, at least for me, I think I was super attracted to somebody who had all these

qualities that I didn't. It was what, it was so many things in Stephen or things that was like, I wish I could be more like that. You know, that's what opposites, I think, maybe not always, but in our situation, opposites definitely attracted. And then you get married and it's like immediately that's what starts driving the wedge, right? Like it's like, you need to be like me. You need do this ABC like me not like XYZ you need to do it like I want to do it my you know the selfishness starts coming out I think that became pretty evident pretty quick and and then it's like I think now at 61 when I think back to all the fussing and feuding we did early on in our marriage trying to do it right or trying to get it right or trying to maybe make you do it my way or you trying to make me do it

your way, I go, there's so much wasted breath and, and awfulness and energy because I think what's happened over time now that, you know, the old phrase hindsight's 20-20, you live enough life and you start looking back and we talk about this a little bit in the book too. I think if the more I've concentrated on and again, I am, I am the walking example of not doing it the way I should be doing it. But just the more I've really tried and focused on becoming closer to the Lord. And he focuses on becoming closer to the Lord. It's like that triangular approach. We started out way over here. For some reason, that's really the attraction as to why we got married in the first place. But then as life's gone on, it's like, as long as we can focus on the

Lord, you know, drawing us to each other, those little things that can really irritate us in the beginning have become less and less important to the fact that you wanted a a synonym about bearing with one another love it's really weird but things that I used to do impeccable and very OCD and all the things he now does and like I'm just like this is so weird we're like flipping positions of you make the bed he makes the bed every day I used to be me making the bed and you know the pillow's just so and it's like I come in and like now after he's done this long enough Now I'm trying to race back there to see if like I can get it made before you know. It's like it's becoming like this full circle thing.

And I know that's just such a small insignificant thing. But it's big, you know, when when you see someone trying to outdo you in kindness. And it's like that's like a full circle moment. We also because I because of our personalities, he's more I always the simple way I put it. He's more the girl. I'm more the guy. It's because he's a songwriter and he's very tender and he's a romantic. and all the things are beautiful in these words.

And I mean, you know, I have every, to my knowledge, unless one accidentally got thrown away, there's he, every time he leaves town, I have a note from him. Like, who does, who, what man does that? You know, and so it's kind of a little opposite with us, but I have every note he's ever written. And I can't write a poem.

Roses or red, bios are blue. I love you. Who, who, who, you know, those kind of things. But, but yet, so, you know, we've had to really work at when we would go to those marriage conferences and be like, let's just go to a movie. Like they say 80% is like

this, you know, for the guys, 20% and then we're always the opposite or whatever. I say all that to say it's been really this book was a great exercise and really getting to look back and go. There really has been in just the mundane

and then the big pieces of life, this growth of we've kind of been doing it all along, not perfectly, and we don't have it all figured out, but just the kind of choosing each other and that bearing with one another just in everyday life.

And so all of a sudden it's like, oh, I wish I could have been, I wish I could be me now back there because I've wasted a lot of busing and feuding. I don't know if that makes any sense, but. Beautiful that you all. all have had the runway to figure that out. It's like the duration of time to experience, oh, well, I wish I had it then, but at least I have it now. Yeah. It's kind of cool that you just

kind of stuck with it and you're still here. I was, we had baptism Sunday at our church this past weekend. I was sitting there watching it. And you have like these, there's a couple 40, 50-year-old guys up there. You can only imagine whatever their life has been to this point. And by the way, I've sat through like, you know, hundred of these baptism Sundays, but this struck me differently. Just like this grown man puts on these, you know,

not fancy clothes for this public debut, goes in the water with these clothes, which, you know, no one ever does. It's kind of like this humiliating type of thing. You get in this, like, vulnerable position, you let someone else dip you under water. It's like, it's kind of silly and humiliating, you know? Yeah. But then I was just thinking, that's, that's it. That's the whole, in some ways, like, that's, that is the right approach to life. Whether you're, like, this guy could be

a leader of a business or be surrounded by the mess of whatever he's created in life, but like the best thing they, they can do next is say, hey, I am willing to admit that, uh, this, I'm doing it wrong. Or I'm like, yeah, I'm open to something else. I might not be doing it right. And I just like, what you guys were just describing that, like, that sacrifice or that humility. And it just is like such a beautiful way to live life. So well done.

Thank you. I have a, I have a pivot of topics. Yes. Out of curiosity. Yes. I want to talk about adoption. Okay. Oh, out of curiosity.

Yeah. Out of curiosity. Yeah. Can you walk us down where your mind is at? And what drove you to adoption? I can. So in 1997? I think, yeah.

Right around there. Yeah. Emily and I, our oldest, took a trip to Haiti. First time I and she had ever been out of the country to a third world country. We went with Compassion International, one of our favorite organizations. And we had had some friends in church. had adopted. I think secretly if he were to,

if you were to admit, you had that kind of rolling around in his kind of back of his mind. Emily, we've always called her our tiny theologian from an early age, Emily was, had the heart of a theologian. We got back from that trip and pretty quickly, she was like, all right, guys,

we've got room at our table. This is something that we should consider. And Stephen tells the story over and over again, we sat her down and said, that's great. And you should do that when you grow up and get married because God's laid this on your heart. However, we were walking with families at church, families in our small group that had adopted. We had seen it, you know, first and foremost, you know, up close and personal. And I was probably the last holdout that was thinking, you know, we can be the part of the body that helps fund this adoption and just really had never considered

it for our family. We had Emily and Caleb and Will, he used to say in concert, we have any, me, any, money. We're not having no mo. And that was kind of the... I have to credit Minnie Pearl for that. That was actually, that was an Opry land. I learned that at Opryland when I was working back. See, it all goes back to Opryland, I'm telling you. But it was perfect for us because we did.

We had three kids. And I would say in concert, we have three kids. We didn't name them any, meaning, money. We ain't having no mo. So, yeah, so Emily got her brothers on board, full-out assault campaign from the kiddos. Grassroots effort there. roots of it. We have copies of all this. She wrote us a letter that said we might be living in

disobedience to God's will for our life. You're 11 years old. Wait a little that after. And had her brother sign it as witnesses to the document. We even called Scotty Smith, who we still walk with to this day. He's served on the board of Show Hope many years. We called him and said, you have to come over here and talk some sense into. Of course, it should be the parents, you know, that are driving this. However, we all were beginning. to feel that call. And then we agreed with the kids that we were going to start praying about it and that we would be willing to pray about it.

I told her she could bring me any information that she wanted to bring me about it. And I would read and I would pray about it. About that time, the China adoption program was just opening up. There were, at that time in the early 2000s, a lot of orphaned girls because of the Chinese one, the one child policy tended to be mostly girls. Stephen and Emily went to a Bethany Christian Services event and brought a bunch of information home. Emily had three things on her Christmas list that year. I have a picture of that too, and it was a Bible concordance.

So let's make sure, you know, that's on there, a four-wheeler and for the family to adopt. That was her three things. So you get a bunch of little kids praying and you get us praying. And then she's bringing me information. And one thing led to another. And we told the kids, we're going to, you know what? We're going to pray about this. And we would like to say that we're on a journey towards adoption.

God can detour us at any point in time. But, you know, we're going to take steps and see what happens. And it felt kind of one of like one of those things where if you just kind of step on the mat at Walmart and the door just flies open, that's every time. We turned around. There were an obstacle, but like God just opened up the doors. And that was everything from the way the laws were structured for adoption from China to all of it. we didn't even know people say all the time why did you adopt from china and i always say that's because that's where they were at you know just god directed it and it ended up being china um and so yeah

the lord made it really clear that we were to pursue this adoption and so we did and in 2000 showy came home and um that was going to be that and um i think i knew deep deep deep in my soul that before i ever got off the plane. And like I said, I was kind of the last holdout. I was really fearful of all the things you consider when you're adopting. And yet I knew when God placed her in my arms, I would have died for her in that moment. Everything shifted. I really understood my adoption in Christ at that moment. I mean, when they hand you a person that you have had no attachment to and in that moment you feel like I would give my life for them, you think about your spiritual adoption. It's like, okay, I'm really beginning to understand this now. So I feel like

Steve watched that, I think in my eyes and in my heart and was kind of like, uh-oh. I think we all knew before we got home that show. We may have a sister from China at some point, but then this one had to be convinced of that. And the Lord had to do work on his heart. And And then Stevie Joy came home in 2003 and we were a family and that's how that was going to be. And then he went on a trip to China with Louise Palau for a crusade and called me and said, I just literally said, I just met a girl named Maria, which is the name of a song. And before he ever got home from China, I had started the paperwork to try to pursue the adoption with her. It was just like the Lord just had us in this rapid of adoption flow for this period. of time and just like that, we had a whole new family. We had the, we had our natural and our

supernatural is what I'd like to say. And then from that was we have to help. This is a, at that period of time, we couldn't find another organization that was giving adoption aid grants for people who wanted to adopt. And so we kind of stepped into that. I'm so excited that you asked me about it because back then it was like, what if we could help like a hundred families adopt? Because we began hearing. We would do that. We would step into this, not just China anywhere, you know, here in the United States, other countries. And like, what if we could help 100 families adopt? And this year we're going to cross the 10,000 mark at Show Hope. And we do get to do a lot of other neat, cool things, kind of caring well for families because adoption is, it's a journey,

not for the faint of heart, but it is the most beautiful picture to us of the gospel. of Jesus that we could ever experience in our family. It is forever. I can't wait as 100 years goes by and they look at our family lineage and all of a sudden there's this introduction of a whole new branch and I just love what God has done through our family with the miracle of adoption. And then I've gotten to be just a witness to so much goodness through the work of Show Hope. But we can also go to dinner with you too and answer many, many,

more questions if that is something that you would like to ask about further. That's a setup. That's a setup. I know people. I know people. Thank you. Yes. That's beautiful. We are just so blessed to be their parents. I just, our youngest is getting ready.

Well, as you know, our youngest passed away when she was five years old. But our youngest now, Stevie Joy, is 23 and she's getting ready to graduate in May with her master's from University of Alabama. I just think about that what I would give to just give a snapshot to a birth parent to not because of her successes, but just because of her life and her love of Jesus. She's just, and Joey is now a child life specialist at Vanderbilt University in the emergency department and using her. She's using her trauma skill set of her own trauma as well as her skill set as a child life specialist. and just the beautiful lives that these girls that we've got to be a part of of raising them, it's just so, it's so miraculous.

Not all of us have conditioning our experiences of knowing people who are in our lives that are still here. And I'm curious, like, you mentioned it's a choice that you've chosen this guy, but I'm just kind of curious, how do you think about teaching someone about still being there for someone else, like whether it be your adopted kids or your kids who are getting married?

Like, how do you still be there? You know, Jesus used stories to teach about the kingdom of heaven. It's what I love about songwriting. And, you know, it's what I love to do with songs I write, tell stories. I've always been way more compelled by someone telling me a story. It's probably why we love movies. it's fine you know then then textbooks i really struggle with textbooks but stories you know i really resonate with and i think it's very cool that you know that's how jesus really taught uh his followers

and teaches us through scripture and maybe that's part of the reason again you know sharing the book i mean as my wife is talking i'm over here you know trying to hold it together and it's really weird. I don't know why because I don't typically have this emotional reaction, but I think just even she starts telling the story of adoption. She starts telling the story of, you know, our daughters and, you know, the impact that they've had and are having in the world and even our biological kids, you know, and all of these things that is just kind of hitting me again that all these stories are really only possible because we just can't. making this decision to stay on the journey together.

I mean, the adoption journey, all of that, you know, wouldn't have potentially wouldn't have even happened. You know, us being able to sit here and tell the story of how radically our lives were changed by this little girl being put in our arms named Shohanna, you know, and how that would change our hearts, the songs I would write, you know, the people that we were just with this morning doing a video. before we came to talk to you guys talking about show hope and the guy behind the camera comes around says, hey, I got, you know, I have five adopted siblings. It was your, it was you guys.

I'm like, wait, are you? It was your story. It was you guys. Tell me your story that inspired my mom and dad to consider. And I got amazing, you know, five siblings that, you know, God used you guys in your story. And the truth is. I was probably up there on stage singing that song after we had just had a knock down, drag out on the phone. And I'm literally walking out on stage going, can I really sing? I will be here tonight because we're a mess. And people are going to sit out there and go, yeah, but you'll have it so together. Look, listen to that beautiful song he wrote.

And I would, I would say from stage, guys, don't get the wrong idea about this. We don't have it figured out, but we're here. And we're just going to keep trusting God. and God keeps showing up and being enough and being sufficient for us. And so I think how do we teach that? I guess we keep telling the story and we keep sharing our stories of God's faithfulness. And, you know, we keep, I mean, with our kids, I think the reason why Kayla would say, you know, my parents hobbled well and still hobbled well is if we modeled anything for them,

it was two things it was it was we modeled a lot of mess up and then repentance and can we make her repentance greater than our than our screw up than our our mistakes and her sin and and if they can see that you know and so there were so many times we'd sit and just be like this is the last thing we want to do right now but I am sorry will you forgive me you know and she'd say the same But it was like our kids, even now would say just that affirmed to us, you know, they love each other. They're, I mean, because our kids, they're way smarter than thinking we actually have it figured out, no matter how we may try to, you know, make them convince them of that. But anyway, that's, I think telling the story with our lives is how we, is how we teach that and how we pass that on.

I love that because I feel like it's been super helpful for me. You know, we do this weird thing where we make podcasts and videos and like inherently and subconsciously in the back of my mind, no matter what happens, good or bad. In my mind, I'm like, oh, this is all part of the story. And like when you make it through this moment, we'll be telling a story about this. And it's so rewarding to think about it that way. And it's like, I guess it brings a little peace or like comfort where you're like, okay. Just make it through this and we'll tell a story about it. Yes.

Yeah. Totally. Just the whole paradigm shift of two of who you're really battling against. You're not battling against each other. Yeah. You know, the enemy doesn't want you all to do podcast and be in positive encouragement and be of light in the community and nationally, you know. And so it's like really identifying too. Like, you know, if you've said it once, you've screamed it at me a million times.

I'm not your enemy. Yeah. There is one. I'm not it. There is one. It's so true, right? Yeah. so true

wow well again please don't wait three years before you come back and let's go get let's go get dinner oh you say it every time can we come back next week

can we come back tomorrow can we stay forever Stephen did invite us to a dinner and this was back in the fall oh yeah I'm gonna have you come to show hope dinner because then you can hear all about I tried to get them to come to

and you guys were out of town so next November we're coming by you so we were trying to escape but we're down that would be a blast I am so grateful to speak with you guys.

I remember the last conversation it planted seeds in my mind. And I think we had another kid since we last song. I think you did. I think he just had the, right? How old?

He's a little one. He just turned two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know that you might have just just been pregnant or not even pregnant yet. Yeah.

But we were talking about your number one and then we talked about ambition in that show and then I needed to hear that, dude. And I just love your guys' perspective, your openness, your honesty. I really like,

going into that third kid needed to just have a different perspective and y'all have unlocked that then and I have a ton to think about after this conversation so thank you so much for those listening who want to hear more about Stephen and Mary Best book and how they have lived their life so well

we'll link the information to their book still here down below we're big fans of y'all so I hope you all read it so thank you guys thank you both man