Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - Rebecca St James & Cubbie

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

Today’s conversation was such a meaningful one, wow we loved this couple. Rebecca St. James has won countless Grammy and Dove awards, is an accomplished actress and the author of more than a dozen books. You probably recognize her husband, Cubbie Fink, as a founding member of the multi-platinum Grammy-nominated band Foster the People. While they’ve both experienced high success, one of the coolest things about them is that they’ve been so open about the hard seasons they've walked through together and it’s helped so many people. In their new book, they open up about their journey with infertility, childhood trauma, depression, processing emotions, career, parenting and more. Honestly anyone can learn something from their story, they’re amazing. We hope if you’re going through a hard season, after listening to this episode you feel encouraged to keep going.   We love you! Shawn & Andrew Get a copy of their book “Lasting Ever” ▶ https://www.amazon.com/Lasting-Ever-Faith-Music-Family/dp/0830787852/ Follow along with Rebecca ▶ https://www.instagram.com/rebeccast.james/?hl=en Follow our podcast Instagram  ▶ https://www.instagram.com/shawnandandrewpods/ Subscribe to our newsletter  ▶ https://www.familymade.com/newsletter Follow My Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@shawnjohnson Shop My LTK Page ▶ https://www.shopltk.com/explore/shawnjohnson  Like the Facebook page! ▶ https://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow Andrew’s Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Andrew’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@andrewdeast?lang=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to Couple Things interviews with Sean and Andrew. Today we have a wonderful couple, Rebecca St. James and her husband, Cubby. Cubby Fink is a founding member of the multi-platinum Grammy-nominated indie pop band Foster the People. Wow, casual. How about that for some bona fides? And his wife. Rebecca St. James is also a Grammy and Dove Award-winning Christian music legend with more than 2 million albums sold.

She's also an accomplished actress And the author of more than a dozen books And they are here Because they just published another book Lasting Ever Faith, Music, Family and Being Founded by True Love We had a really fun conversation If you want to find out more about what they're up to

We'll link their information down below As well as information on the book Hope you enjoy this one with Rebecca St. James and Cubby Fink I've got a question super fuss for you How is the social media thing like at that level like that's a lot like how do you keep it from dominating your life because that's you've got a lot of followers and i just does it feel like a constant battle to kind of keep it from invading your privacy or i'll let you go first i think it did yeah but we have

figured out a system that works really well yeah to where it almost doesn't feel like it's even there anymore like our team is so wonderful yes that it does it actually feels way less invasive than it ever did before yeah that's great i uh well i'm actually curious to get y'all's perspective on this because i am just continually grateful for sean's experience she started being in the limelight at age like 12 and so the way is she's conditioned to yeah fame i think it's so much different than like the TikTok stars will blow up overnight and all of a sudden you're like sweet I've hated and like all the weird things that can happen and they're freaking out probably because of it or making bad decisions yes exactly and they don't have people around they haven't

figured out the system of what does it look like to navigate this healthily yeah because it is it can be overwhelming and disorienting I remember you guys know the holcomes we had the pleasure of talking with them and he said something that's really stuck with me that the human heart is not meant for fame you said the same thing you said oh dude I freaking love it pretty much for bite on the same thing. I love that. And I think it's so accurate. And so it's like, all right, so how can we, I love what we do. So in some ways, I want it to consume our life. Because I'm like, dude, this is, I love it. Like, I'm sure like you guys do feel about your work where you're like, oh my gosh, this really feels meaningful and like an application of the skills I've been given. Yes. But how do I create a buffer between myself and like the whatever the reaction is by the by the populace, you know? So, um, But I don't know, yeah, Caroline and Lexi and everyone you just met have been pivotal. And then Sean's wisdom in navigating has been crucial as well. How long have you been married?

Nine years, eight years? Eight years. Thanks for coming to interview us, Rebecca. Sorry. This is really good. But you've dealt with this your whole life, it seems, no? Yeah, yeah, since 13. I mean, similar age.

I went on my first two at 13. So how do you? Yeah, I mean, that does help. I mean, well, there's trauma around that, too. For sure. You know, and, I mean, for me, I feel like it was always trying to live up to these expectations, you know, that were on me from really young. So there's stuff that you have to process based on that. But I think it helps you stay grounded when you've done it since that young because it's kind of like you're not being shocked by the crazy as it just kind of maybe increases later in life.

I think also seeing a lot of it as a kid helped because like you're not quite old enough to experience all of it and understand it but you get to witness all of it and I just normal a little bit yeah and I got to witness the good and bad of it I got to see how people handled it really well yes and how people handled it very poorly and people who are consumed by it and um it just kind of made it easier now that we're older to say oh I've actually seen where this can go for the good or bad, and I want to make sure we don't ever end up in the bad. It's good. So you learn from other people.

Yeah. Yeah. How old are you guys now? 33. Both of you? Yeah. Oh, that's cool. She just had a birthday this week.

Happy birthday. Thanks. How long have you guys been married? 14. Amazing. Amazing. How's it going? Good.

It's coming great. It's kind of fun. It's getting pretty serious, I think. As you have your three babies next door. Yeah. Yeah. I am curious. You, congratulations, by the way, on the book you just wrote, just came out and very excited. How was that process, though? Because we're about to enter that journey. And I need tips. I need wisdom. Share it all, please. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a massive undertaking. And are you going kind of memoir style, or what's the approach of you guys' book? Yes. It's... Memoir with a topic focus.

I think the interesting thing that I learned through the process is it's it's rare that you're forced to focus on your life to the degree that you have to in order to write a book and it's something that I found incredibly therapeutic cathartic and really healing in ways and just it was just a beautiful process and it's something I've really been encouraging people you know getting over to the hump of actually finishing the book going back now and encouraging people just pause and look back on your life. There's so much there that you probably missed, and especially missing the hand of God. I think it's very easy to miss God in the work, God in working in your situations, especially in the hard times. We can miss God's hand, but getting a bit of perspective and getting it to be on it and be able to look back. It's beautiful to see the way that he is just so intimately involved in every granular detail of your life. and we just saw so many points of things that we missed before, so many points of God just orchestrating things so beautifully and points connecting that we never saw connecting before

and even the ways that he was growing and maturing her and preparing her for me and vice versa. And so all that to say, just get ready to dig up a lot and bring things to the surface that probably haven't been brought to the surface in a long time, but also just be aware of God in the midst of it. and what he's trying to show you just to the beautiful stories that he's written on your lives. And it's funny, getting all of the words out on the page. It's almost like, I can't even take credit for those stories.

It's just so clearly God and his handwriting all over every page. What led you guys to write a book? It was actually a friend of Al. So we had a movie come out last year through Lionsgate about my family story called An Sang Hero. And it was a producer on that film. film that, you know, around the time that we were, what, getting ready to release it, I suppose. That was, that a year and a half ago. Yeah.

He just said, I feel like you have a story that needs to be heard right now that, like, people are needing encouragement and their faith and then marriage and family life and just all these things. And you have a story that could really help encourage people. And so it kind of ignited something in us that I think we'd been feeling since we were probably early married, like at some point. you know, way down the track, we'll write a book. But I think it brought things up, you know, to, like now,

to where we just felt a sense of, like, mission and timeliness around it. And, you know, a lot of people are deconstructing their faith or, like, you know, really questioning, does this faith thing, you know, work for me? Or they're discouraged because people have let them down and maybe Christians, you know. And so we hope that the book, like, that people kind of close the book and go, God is good. And I've seen that in their story.

And we hope that people feel like they, like, sat down and had a coffee with us. Like, it's just real like that. And that it's applicable to where they're at in their season. I feel just tickled that we actually get to sit down and almost have a cup of coffee with you. Thank you. It's like artistic royalty here in so many ways. Thank you. The book is called Lasting Ever, Faith, Music, Family, and Being Founded by True Love.

what's behind the title there? Last thing ever was that? Yeah, I mean, I think it really tied into kind of this whole, like, happily ever-after thing that I think we all long for, you know, of just happiness and life and marriage. And then kind of just going, well, you know, we are promised in the Bible that in this world you will have trouble. Like, we know that that's a given. Like, we know that it's going to be challenging and there's going to be pain. but then to kind of go, God is faithful and he will restore and he will redeem those challenging moments.

And so how do we live out a lasting ever, like, or everlasting. It was kind of a creative play on everlasting. That kind of everlasting love, receive it from God. So that's like being found by true love is really like this whole idea of being found by God's true love and then having that play out in the way. we do relationships like so we're committed and we we stick it out in the hard times because there will be hard times you know yeah in our family life in our marriage in our face and hopefully this book just encourages people to to courageously stand firm in those hard times yeah and i think the

the happily ever after kind of alludes to a nice neat package with a bow on top but i think the lasting ever the playing on the everlasting is it's it's more of a commitment to truly endure. I think it's a matter of enduring and what endurance produces in the midst of the life that we lead together

and in our family and really just a commitment to last through the hard times but enjoy the good times. Do you have a question. When you do a photo shoot for the book cover, what percentage more time

do you spend on your hair for something? It's a lot more pressure. It's like, it's perfect. The cover is incredible. And the color scheme? I'm, I love it. Well, thank you.

I'm very impressed with you guys. We really love design and we love, I mean, he especially loves photography being a director. And so, yes, your aesthetic. This looks like kind of our house with the black and the wood. Did you shoot this? Did you do the photo shoot for that? No. Oh, okay.

I was my design. That would have been impressive if you were able to do that behind the camera. Set the timer and running back. The hair is impressive regardless. I love the, I'm trying to think, is there a different mechanism through which to realize God's goodness and faithfulness other than that reflection that I think happens in different forms, whether it be prayer or something like an event like writing a book? Because when you endure through whatever season life has to offer and you make it to the other side and then you look back, like that, that's, it's just a really amazing way to kind of construct the

like to view the breadcrumbs where you're like oh man I didn't see it when I was in the forest but now I can step back and see really everything that patched together. I'm just trying to because faith is an interesting thing that I see that cultural Christianity actually is on the rise and it's like really amazing I'm pumped about it but like dissecting some of the derivative effects

of like wow when you're able to sit back and reflect and then like see the goodness that life has brought you whether it be like a euphoric good time being on stage or being on the podium or the goodness that comes through the difficult times too it's like what other way is there to appreciate that you know I'm not sure anyway yeah I mean I think

there's it is interesting because I think we're able to value things far more afterward through them I think we can we can take in as much as we can in the moment and I think there is a call to find contentment in the moment and I think that's really a verse that has guided a lot of my life is when Paul says I've found a way

to be content in all things because I think it's easy to look to the next thing that will bring us quote unquote contentment but I think a lot of it is striving for this just fleeting happiness

but I think contentment is really found in the present because we're not anxious about the future and we're not just depressed about the past it's being content with who we are in the here and now and what God is providing us in the midst of the high times and the not so high times and just being okay with with being in the presence of God and having that be enough and I think contentment speaks more it's beyond just joy and happiness it's a true just sense of of

peace and rootedness and being okay in the here and now hmm well said I think that we can also see like these full circle moments um in community because I I just find like some of the biggest like aha moments that I have are like having a conversation with a friend you know over a coffee or whatever and or and our small group and you're just kind of talking about your life and you're just kind of reflecting on it or somebody's asking a question and and you just kind of sit back in in those like community communal moments and you just go oh yeah like I I see God's hand in that or that's kind of coming full circle like I think that's why we need community.

I think when we island ourselves off and we're just trying to keep up these appearances that everything's fine and we're doing great and all of it, I think there's a loneliness in that and there's a lack in that. Whereas if we're in community with other people that share our same hearts and are asking questions and there's this free flow of kind of ideas

and like talking about your life freely, like it's almost like we start kind of hearing God's faithfulness in our story more so I just think there's a high value on community to reflect and you don't have to have a book or you don't have to be this expert at journaling every day to like see the hand of God I think if you're in community yeah

Andrew has Andrew and I have talked about this a lot but the reason why we started this show was I got really frustrated at looking at culture and looking at society and seeing this like trend of people saying if things get hard especially within marriage it must not be the right fit to leave and quit and then i also feel like in culture today in regards to anything whether it's a new job or whatever category across the spectrum if things get challenging it must not like it must not be the right right right which is kind of counter cultural to what you're writing in the book yes

And I think the question I'm like trying to get at is for someone who's a skeptic to faith and to God and to something greater, you want them to read your book and walk away and say God is good. But how can you convince someone that the hardship they're enduring is actually potentially a blessing on the other side and not just the world giving, serving them up a bad hand? Yeah. I mean, I don't think we can convince anybody of anything, really. I mean, we don't have that power, you know. But I think all we can do is seek to share authentically and go, man, we have had some tough stuff happen. His mother was dying slowly for years and then just recently died. In our winter season, what we call our kind of most painful time of our lives, I miscarried twice. So it's like a loss. of dreams and just my body failing me seemingly or he lost a job unjustly out of the blue and there was betrayal of friends in that and you know it was just like thing after thing after thing hitting us and I think in that time we probably could have gone life just is you know stinks right now like it just really is awful and I don't you know I don't see how we're ever going to come out of this pit like

but I think what we felt challenged to do and I think helped us not only get through it but then get to the other side of it to like what we consider our spring was going God this is really hard actually to like believe that you're going to redeem this somehow like miscarriage you know or just the things that we're walking through are really really hard to navigate and hard to feel hopeful even about like how does something good come out of that loss you know but on the other side of it like we see that in that winter time there was stuff happening below the surface in our hearts that was good like like we were crying together and just

going I don't even have many authentic encouraging words to tell you right now but we're in it together and like we are seeking to trust that God is good and he can somehow get us through this and then you know we get to this time where the spring did start and like an internal spring came to us and it was actually through worship it was like through like a event that I was part of and I'm like singing to God and I like spring came to my heart I know it and it was happening at the same time completely separate from me to him and then we had a second child and a third child and all this vocational stuff has come and now we can kind of go like we can comfort out of the comfort that we were receiving from God in that time so all that

to say like we can't convince any listener of anything other than this is true of our experience like we authentically experienced god being there for us and we have seen the redemption and now we can kind of encourage other people that are in their own winter that spring does come and i think there's something that that can be agreed upon whether you have a faith perspective or not is that we only grow through the hard stuff it would be nice to believe that when life is good and we're living on the fat of the calf that we're going to be growing and maturing, but the reality is we don't. It's just far too easy to get complacent and just think that, I mean, you're not forced to grow when things are easy, but it's through the hard times,

it's through the pain, it's through the challenges that we do grow, we mature, we have to to overcome to get to the other side. So because of that with a faith perspective, you can see God at work through the challenging times, growing us and maturing us, ultimately creating us into the beings that he designed us to be through the hard stuff. And it's, I mean, it's funny, if we had the power to just create a little human, which, I mean, just for the sake of an analogy, and you wanted to instill patience in that little being, you wouldn't give them whatever they want whenever they ask for it. You would make them wait, and that would be hard for that child to receive.

So instilling patience in that being is withholding. That's hard for that being, but that's instilling a virtue. and them that will only benefit them. So it's when we're experiencing things that might feel unjust or hurt or don't make sense, it's what are we learning through that process that's going to benefit us in the future. And with a God perspective, it's all the more beautiful because it's him at work and all of that. It's him providing purpose in the pain.

Pain is something that we run from at all costs in this culture, but it's embracing the pain because you know there's purpose in it. on that note I had the experience of writing a eulogy and it was really there was a moment that hit me where

I realized that all these stories I was telling about my father were they could be seen in so many different lenses and it's like what the stories that I choose to share in this eulogy and how I talk

about them matters because it kind of cemented that in your mind and I wonder as you're making the movies or doing the books how do you think about positioning those stories in a way that like psychologically locks those stories in because just like the child who feels the pain of you withholding something it's like and if they if they told that story right now that would be that would be coming from one place of like yeah you wouldn't believe what my dad did and he hurt me but then give it a few years or give it a

space and that story would look totally different like oh my gosh my dad really loved me so much that he taught me this lesson so that just whatever effect that is of like how how am i telling this story am i am i the victim here am i the hero or you know did you guys confront that at all with this you're you're hitting on something that i just think because annie recently struck me about how powerful that is like our perspective we were talking to somebody recently on a on a on a I think it was a podcast actually and um they were saying that there's been this like research that's been done and how you talk about your marriage can definitively say whether your marriage will last or not and um so if you're kind of saying

yeah we've been through some hard times but we like see see good in it and we're closer on the other side of it or like yeah we we should have got married so we did get married and like, you know, it's the way that you tell your story and your love relationship literally speaks of how, you know, if it'll last or not. And I thought that was so fascinating because really perspective is just about everything, you know. You think of people that lived through the Holocaust, like people that survived that and then went on to, you know, write books about it or like live a thriving life. They had a perspective of hope or that there's some kind of purpose in the pain and they got through it to the other side and we're able to bless other people

you know with their story or their book because of their perspective so i think there's something there that is huge and hopefully people hear a hopeful perspective here and it's not all just like challenges there's a lot of humor in there there's a lot of like you know out when we met and like it was so magical it's like a hallmark movie like there was just so many really sweet amazing moments out he's playing at the grommies with the beach boys and like like, you know, we're traveling the world together. There was some really, like, fun, cool and sometimes very funny parts in the book. But the real stuff, too, I think has so much value and it's how we're thinking about it

that I think impacts the peace and the joy of our life. So I love that you're speaking to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I also think I love the humor. I love reading books that have humor in them, for sure. But I do think it is the hard stuff that people relate to and, like, hold on to. do so much.

Hearing your story about infertility, I hate that you're a part of that group. We are a part of it as well, and I wish nobody to ever go through that. But the amount you have spoke about community, the amount of people that came into our lives and how big our community grew because of that was just a testament to the perspective you have.

And I'm curious within your marriage, Was that a hard season for you guys getting through that? And how did that affect you as a couple? And how did you manage to get through that season to have second and third for a second and third? Yes. It was hard. Did you know that electrolyte deficiencies can cause headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog, and weakness? It took me forever to find this out the hard way.

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That's Andrew's favorite. Try element today totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they'll refund your order. No questions at. Yeah, I mean, it, like Rebecca alluded to, it was just one of those seasons that everywhere we looked, it was just, it felt like the world was caving in on us and just felt underneath feet of snow, hundreds of feet of snow, and it just felt like there was no way out of it. And Rebecca often speaks about, you know, she was struck at her feminine core because her body was

feeling her, like she's not able to do the thing she was created to do. I was struck at my most masculine core because suddenly I found myself in job loss and not knowing how I was going to provide for my wife and brand new baby and then that's only compounded by my mom dying and all these other things and so there was definitely

the challenge was finding the strength to be enough for each other because we both felt like the weak ones neither of us was the strong one to kind of lift the other one through the hard time and so I think there was a lot of just focusing on what we knew despite our circumstances not being in alignment with that. We still knew God was good, even though we were experiencing a lot of pain and just trying

to put one step in front of the other. And I think the other massive component for me in that season was in admission that I needed help. And I think there's, you know, the culture will say, especially as men, just, tough it out and bear the emotions and and just be the macho man but i think admitting that i needed help because of the way i saw myself responding to my wife in ways that were were unkind and unjust um really were was was proof to me that that there was stuff beyond the external circumstances stuff internally that needed to be dealt with and and i used the analogy in the book of

if I were to reach out and touch her Wrecka's arm gently she would probably just say yes you're touching my arm but if she had a gaping wound on her arm and I touched her in the same way she would have a visceral reaction and probably yell something and jump back and I started noticing the way that I was responding to things that should have been

fairly benign in very visceral ways which was proof there was something buried beneath that needed to be uprooted and dealt with which which was the beginning of saying, okay, I need to find somebody they can help me with us. I found a counselor, and then that led to another counselor

that ultimately helped me walk through this journey of just uncovering some pretty dark and painful trauma from my childhood that ultimately was able to kind of uncover, but not only uncover, but experience the healing of Jesus Christ in the midst of that, and just see really my life turned upside down

and profoundly came out on the other side, just so much more healed and whole and able to be what I would hope to be a much better husband and to my wife and fathered and my children. So really, the hard season spurred on that, that, you know, journey, and it's an ongoing journey. It's not over. But yeah, so trusting on what we knew to be good, despite you know it's it's like relying on the last word that you heard from god even in the midst of silence or or hardship and then and then also not getting in the way of your own healing um because i think we can be sent to a shame place and and and also a fear place of like being fearful of pressing into the hard um so standing on what you know to be true and then also having the courage

to step out and push into the hard what is it about males and emotions i know that's like because I can't wrap my mind around them either. But like, yeah. It's such a, such a mostly accurate stereotype of like, man, I don't know how to, Sean's like, how are you feeling today? I'm like, I don't know what you want me to say. I don't know the words of what emotions are. But how has that been for you?

Because it seems like you've done some work there. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because it's funny because I don't know how much of it's taught, how much of it's innate, how much of it is learned. but I distinctly remember the day that I decided crying was stupid I was probably five or six years old I was in my room I don't remember what spurred on the tears but I remember like kind of finishing up my cry session

I'm like that was stupid I'm never going to cry again and I kind of decided from that moment forward I'm done crying so that was the beginning of bearing a lot of emotion and then I grew up in a family that didn't talk about emotions and a lot of things were swept under the rug. And so I never developed any kind of an emotional vocabulary, which I was able to start that process in college. I ended up kind of finding a mentor.

He was one of my professors and really helped me with a lot. But one of the biggest things he helped me with was how to put words around the things that I'm feeling and kind of taught me that vocabulary, which allowed me to, you know, ultimately help me in this relationship first and foremost. But that's only deep. been the kind of the the further i've gone into the areas that that had previously been just the avoidance areas the places i didn't want to go to so it's it is uh it takes intentionality for sure i mean especially for guys because i don't think it comes naturally to us um but it's something i

would absolutely encourage other dudes to do because it's especially for guys that are wanting to have any kind of a semblance of a healthy relationship with a woman it's kind of important It is so hard, though. And I'm curious how you've navigated the patience of that process. Sean's been very patient with me. But like the balance between being emotionally tuned in and like very aware of that versus being emotionally resilient, which I think is also good. And it's like, because this emotional resilience turns into burying things and like glazing over things and not. thinking about it and sometimes i feel like the emotional tunic or like being in tune in that way

you can be i don't know is overly sensitive a thing is that like a is that possible maybe maybe not probably for us women but like yeah but like how do you balance those two because like all right well i need to acknowledge this at some point but i also need to understand that like okay i don't know i have a family leans on me or something you know yeah i mean i think there's something about husbands and wives I think it's why we put together like why God made us that way because it's almost like I think we draw out our men right like when we're you know I talk about it in the book

but like I think there's a sixth love language and it's curiosity where you just ask the people that you love you ask them questions and you or you know or people that you've just met you can also ask them to learn from them but but I just think it's it's a love language that we offer in relationship is, you know, drawing each other out. And I think a lot of girls, like we like to talk and we like to communicate and connect in that way.

And so it's easier for us. But then I think there's a balance. I think we draw out our men. And then I think that we probably at some point as females, we can be real sensitive. I know I have been and probably am. But I think I've had to learn some emotional resilience too of like early in marriage. It's like, we need to knock out. out this conflict that we're having. It's three in the morning and we're completely exhausted,

but we've just got to not let the sun go down on our anger. You know, like we've just got to talk about it. Get to the other side. He's been down for hours. Yeah. You know, and so, and he's falling asleep and I'm like more upset. You know, this is early in marriage to then this place of like going, you know what? He's in his process and I've just got to kind of let him think it through and let him have some time and we'll talk about it at a different point when we're less sleepy. You may take nuts on that? It's a process. I'm the hash out.

I got to get it out. Yeah. We're working on that. We're working on that. You mentioned a winter season, a spring season. Do you all have a fall and summer season of life or no? I don't know. Maybe those are like coming.

I feel like the summer was probably the blissful years. I mean, I think summer represents. bliss for both of us growing up near the water. I'm Australian, yeah. We like the sunshine. And so, yeah, I think we didn't label it in the book, but probably the blissful years is probably the summer. Our first few years of marriage were, like, pretty amazing.

He was traveling with fossil people, and we traveled together a lot and traveled the world. And, like, I mean, got to really experience some pretty amazing things together. So I think that, yeah, that was probably a summer. And I think there'll be more of all of it, right? Like, there'll be other summers. and I think we're in a kind of a little fresh spring right now. But you kind of come in and out of these different seasons in life.

And it's, you know, talk about resilience. I think it's kind of learning how to roll us out of bit and not be thrown by it and stay steady in all the different seasons. I love how you just said that. We have had a lot of conversations with friends of ours who are desperate to be married and are still searching for their person. but it's funny how you ask them what they're looking for and they have this idea in their mind of

I want my life to look exactly like this or I want a life like I see you in my friends and the way you said you have to have the resilience to be able to go through those ups and downs I think a lot of people a lot of people today who are searching for their person fail to acknowledge that there is a roller coaster you ride and it's probably more low than high,

and the highs are fun, but the lows are part of it. But nobody sees that or wants to experience that to get to the highs anymore. They just want the bliss of it, which I think is interesting. Yeah, I think it ties back.

I find that the narrative conversation really fascinating, kind of want to revisit it, because it's not the purpose of faith, but I think it's a purpose of faith, But I think it's a beautiful side effect of faith where it really is the best, most optimistic, ambitious, positive narrative you can embrace where it's like, it's, it's withstands a test of time. Okay. It's like been around for thousands of years.

Again, not the purpose of, it's not the purpose to have all these fancy feel good narratives. But like you think about, okay, if I want to be a contributing citizen. that uses by skills well and I'm like contributing to a community what's the best way to do that? Well, let's talk about humility. Let's talk about sacrifice. Let's talk about

character integrity. Yeah, yeah. It's like it's all baked into the whole faith thing. So whatever. I just find it like for the people that are faith skeptical, it's like there is, there are a lot of positive derivatives to it. 100%.

Love that. perspective yeah you're right on yeah um speaking of perspective we're in a phase of parenting where narratives are important too we have a five three and one year old and there's a lot going on with the kids a lot going on with us you have a podcast practice makes parents what have you learned in that process of documenting the whole thing dude so much i i love it like i'm sure you guys relate to this where it's just there's certain things that you do that you're like I get to do this like there's just joy in it because you just feel like it's so congruent with your season and that's how I feel about this podcast because it's like we are in the thick of it with our three and wanting all the

wisdom and so I get to do this parenting podcast with the head of parenting at Focus on the family so they've got like decades behind them of like wisdom when it comes to parenting my co-host is like a doctorate in like counseling so it's like expert and then we get to interview other experts so I'm learning all these like things about like you know if you want to you know just kind of ride the you know wave with your child and just like kind of maintain relationship then about four hugs a day is a good idea if you want to really up your game you know like six hugs a day if you want to really like like grow super much closer to your your child wild and feel much more connected than them to you.

Eight hugs a day. Like all this kind of like. Is that thing? Eight hugs a day? Well, and the wild thing is I, I mean, I'd never heard this before. You know, and maybe for different kids. Like some kids are going to be more into that, you know, the hugs. And maybe your female kids might be more into it than your son needs it.

I don't know. But I've noticed it with our oldest who's like preteen. I'm intentionally hugging her more. It's almost like I'm just sewing into her little personhood and I'm seeing her flower in this new way and some walls come down. It's like working. So I'm getting all these little tips that.

And what was the challenge? The challenge to let the child let go first? Yes. Have you heard that? We've done it and it was wild. How long they hold on to you forever. It's so amazing. Makes you want to cry.

I know. Seriously. Yeah. Hold this together. No, there's a moment I had with my son where I was like, Shana just told me about this. I was like, I'm going to try it out.

We just stood there for like three minutes. It's amazing, right? It's magic. Yeah. Yeah. Or like another idea that I kind of got was having this like jar of marbles. And every time you find your child doing something good, you put a marble in there. And then when they get to a certain amount of marbles, you do something special with them one-on-one.

It could be a walk or it could be playing Legos. But it's something, you know, that's special for that child. and they're like seeing the good choices that they're making and you're affirming them instead of just kind of correcting all the time. I mean, it's been so helpful for me. Like, I just feel like I'm being poured into with these like tips and tricks and nuggets when it comes to parenting and it's really helpful.

I'm like, what else do you have? We're doing these two for sure. Eighthows a day and marvelous. Yeah, well, and this kindness, based on, again, some of the things that I'm learning from these experts, it's, I started this like kindness board where if the kids, you know, are kind to each other because I feel like breaking up fights amongst your children is just a thing at this age. It's like, come on, guys, just be nice.

How hard is it? But when you find them doing something kind, you're like, that was great. And you're going to get a little, a tick on the board for, you know, being kind. And you might have some taken away too if you're not so kind. But just noticing it and affirming it. and there's going to be a good kind of result that comes from us seeing this pattern of kindness. I've noticed such a change in the kids. So, anyway, I love, I love it.

I love this podcast. And now you have like an in-house parenting coach, right? That's right. So, yeah. She's the at-home expert. No, definitely not expert. Work in progress for sure. Something else that you guys speak so well on, and you speak on it a lot, is actually purity,

which we have had so many conversations about in terms of. trying to figure out the way to explain it to kids, especially in today's world. Yes. How do you feel you will address it when the day comes or if the day has already come? We are. The day has come. Okay.

We have a five-year-old. We should get on this. And, yeah, tell me how you approach the conversation and the meaning behind it for you guys. Well, I mean, you know, we have two girls, so I've probably spearheaded it with our oldest, you know who's just about 11 so I mean they say really you start you can start having the conversations or reading like age appropriate books like by like five like five and eight

there's these there's these books that are very simple they're not showing too much it's like it's you know but it's just kind of educating them on healthy sexuality yeah um very age appropriate but then so starting the conversation I think is actually younger than what you think and it not being this one and done thing. I think in generations past, it's like, oh, we've got to get that talk over at a certain point, and then we're good. Or we'll just kind of let school handle it.

And I think both are not really, with the research that's been done now, neither is a good idea. Don't let school handle it. Parents handle it first so that they're getting really that very caring, very intentional approach, very nurturing approach.

And then it's a series of conversations. but we just, my daughter and I just started a series of like kind of mother-daughter dates to intentionally talk about like self-image and friends and identity and sexuality. And so we've just started and we're doing this little program that Focus on the Family puts out called Launch Into the Teen Years and it's amazing. So we've just done one. But I love it and it's bonding us in a really cool way. It's kind of starting these like little conversations and it's got a little.

little video that you watch together and then you've got journaling and you know a series of questions but it's deepening our mother-daughter relationship in a really cool way and so I'm instead of being like oh yeah this is like something after dread it's actually been something that I've enjoyed and we even dressed up we got our nails done we went out to eat and we talked about some of the stuff and it was like celebration of womanhood it was really fun that's really cool yeah I think it's drastically different than generations above us because it's it was always the same thing taboo you don't speak about it it's just the way it is if you ever cross any lines it's shame on you right and to see how much it's evolved is really encouraging as parents yes because it can be

daunting at times yes i think for every parent it is but it doesn't have to be i think it's something that's uniquely christian that i think it's twisted sometimes and the christians i think get wrong I know several Christian couples that like the healthy sexuality doesn't there's no sexuality because it's all just bundled in shame and like oh I was always told this is a bad thing right so I don't want anything to do with it and we're married you know so it's like it is really but obviously there's a fine line of like okay how do we talk about this in a way that you're comfortable with and there's no shame attached without overdoing it I guess it's another fine line to navigate but I don't know how you how y'all are you all do it you have to send us all the resources okay well do yeah are you a part of those conversations at all with the daughter I mean not I mean not as much yeah but you will be and yeah and probably and definitely with our son I think he'll be spearheading that one but I think even as she gets older like speaking even into clothing and stuff you have spoken into that like just clothing choices like what are you saying and not to be legalistic like we're not

trying to encourage that. I think the ways I have interjected is, you know, from a guy's perspective, you are showing, you know, this part of your shoulder and that's communicating something to a guy and just making her aware of, you know, obviously she just wants to look fancy and cute and all the things, but what she's putting on is communicating something to everyone around her and just helping her understand it from that perspective. And again, not from a legalistic standpoint. It's like, we've got these hard, fast rules. And if you break them, then you're in trouble. It's more. And And I think that's where, I mean, even the purity movement, there was so much good in it because it was upholding a beautiful virtue.

It's what God has called us to do. But unfortunately, upholding virtues can get intertwined with legalism and then things go awry. And my hope would be that God or that people wouldn't blame man's or blame God for man's shortcomings. Because we have a tendency to screw things up all the time. I mean, people get angry at the church and they blame God. But the problem is church is just wrong. run by imperfect people. So my hope is that people would be able to delineate that. It's not, it wasn't God that created this legalism. God had provided something that is best for us and best

for our families and best for our marriages. And he asks us to, to honor it for our good. It's not like he's trying to lord anything over us. He's, he's asking us to do something's only for our benefit. But when that beautiful virtue tries to get enforced by imperfect people, it obviously has very negative fallout which i understand and i'm i hurt for your friends that are bound up in shame because of of the way that they were taught things so i think it is trying to enforce things in in a way that that communicates the love behind the idea and not the legalism to enforce and and to cause shame and i think the intent behind it too you know when we talk to our daughter about like clothing like you know there's a lot of clothing today that is

many versions of adult clothing you know it's like showing your midrith or it's really like high skirts or um lots of leg you know with these super high shorts or things like that but it's kind of helping her to go beyond just these rules like hubby was saying it's like it's not about the rules it's about the intent like are you trying to you know get this attention from a boy that is is really looking at your clothes in your body and going she's sexy and you're 10 years old like is this what you really want or are you really wanting to go I I really want to be honoring to God in every part of my body and I want to dress like that I'm respecting my body and so I know and I know some of this stuff is like hard to talk about it but it's the kind of things that we do need

to be talking about as parents because what we believe about this you know about what's right or wrong, you know, to do sexually before marriage, or what we believe about modesty and, you know, the way we dress is going to impact our kids. And they will be influenced by how we talk to them about these things. So I think, you know, we talk about it in the book. Like, how our experience with purity was great. Like, it was protective. It was good. And it wasn't legalistic. But other people have had an experience that was, but what are we passing? on to the next generation. Like what are the values that we are going to stand by

when it comes to what we pass on to our kids? So we have to sort through it. We have to figure out what we believe and how we want to direct them, I suppose. But it's hard. It's not easy. It is. It's a lot of conversations that come,

like you said, so much earlier than you think. Yep. The things that we get asked even by our three-year-old sometimes, I'm like, wow, I don't know. We've got to think about this one. Let me come back to you. My default is, I need a thing. talk to daddy about it.

Yeah. And it buys me some time. We've had many questions already in so many different categories of life and areas, not even about this, but where you're just like, I didn't know your brain could even comprehend these topics and thoughts already. So it's challenging, but it's fun to keep up with it and try to honor their curiosity and give them answers that are really thought out and intentional and not just like, oh, I don't know and sometimes we need a minute to figure out what we do think about it right yes yeah and maybe get

some counsel on it too yes chat with some other people i would say you guys just came from one of our favorite councils cissy she is just a genius with words and kids thomas raising boys and girls i mean they have so many resources so many great books i've always said i'm calling you with every question i ever have because the way she processes everything i'm just like oh yes it's so good The emotion wheel. I remember that one. Your kids are here. Yes.

And it seems like that's common for you to bring them with you. What's the philosophy or intention behind that? Because I like it. Thank you. I, you know, I grew up in a family that we did stuff together like that. You know, we did ministry together. And so I think I saw it modeled and we homeschooled that, you know, so that that allowed kind of that flexibility.

And there was something about doing it together that helped us to navigate even some of those challenging years, I think, you know, when we had just moved to the U.S. And then we're moving into ministry, and we were out on the road a lot. And the togetherness helped. And I think for me, I just don't ever want our kids to go, wow, mom and daddy were gone. And they were helping everyone else or they were encouraging everyone else, but they weren't present to us. and I never want that to happen. Like, I think I will quit just about everything if they say that. But right now, especially our oldest, just says,

I'm so thankful that you do music, Mom. And I think she's seeing the adventure and the joy of it. And while ever it's that, I think we will do it this way. And it's, for me, it makes the whole thing of music new and fresh, like, doing it with them. Like, it's joy. and we get to travel and have these new experiences. We're going to New York in about 10 days to do some media there and Good Morning America and Fox and Friends.

And we'll go as a family and we'll probably go see a show. But it allows us, I think, it's comforting for me and it's kind of grounding for me in a special way, but I'll also think they're learning and they're growing through the adventure of it and the togetherness of it too. And we're growing in our relationships. that's really cool yeah and i think i mean for both of us we have a mutual belief in understanding that our first ministry is here between her and i we can't be good parents if we're off our next ministry

is our children we can't be good ministers of anything else if our relationship with our children is is not healthy so everything kind of stems from that and i think i mean we made a commitment early on in marriage when I was heavily touring I mean I was gone 300 plus days a year and it would have been very easy for us to go months without seeing each other because I was just gone that much but we made a commitment really kind of from moment one that we weren't going to go longer than two weeks without seeing each other and and I think laying that foundation in our marriage just making sure that we were prioritizing and even when it was hard when we'd have to fly and meet each other on a day off from two other opposite sides of the world just to make sure we weren't going

beyond that two weeks. I mean, it really kind of set the standard for the way we wanted to operate as a family and continuing to defer to this being our first priority and first ministry. And now that children are part of our world, it just kind of gets enveloped into that same mindset and wanting all of the other things that we do, ministry and elsewise, to stem from the health that we try and maintain in the home. That's great. I'm curious, is there anything left on the creative bingo for you guys? You've got the music, you got movies, books.

I mean, what else? Sculptures, maybe. Interpretive dance. Yeah, you've done it all. You've done it all. Great job. It's an honor to meet you all. Thank you for joining us.

For those listening, they want to check out what Rebecca and Cubby are up to, including a link to their book lasting ever we'll include that in the show notes but this was a real treat so thank you thank you we've enjoyed it it's a lot of fun yeah that one is