Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - Rich and DawnCheré Wilkerson

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

Today we got to interview Rich and DawnCheré Wilkerson, a couple we’ve been wanting to meet for a while and the conversation didn’t disappoint! After an 8 year battle with infertility, DawnCher�� and her husband Rich are here to share their story of God’s faithfulness after a long season of waiting. We talked about DawnCheré’s powerful new book that explores what it means to find purpose, joy, and strength in seasons of waiting, and how we are all waiting on something in our lives. Together, Rich and DawnCheré share how their journey through infertility, ministry, and unanswered prayers transformed their perspective on pain, purpose, and God’s timing. So whether you’re in a holding pattern or coming out of a hard season, we hope this conversation reminds you that your story is still unfolding. Love you guys! Shawn & Andrew Purchase DawnCheré’s Book ▶ https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/slow-burn/ Follow Rich ▶ https://www.instagram.com/richwilkersonjr/?hl=en Follow DawnCheré ▶ https://www.instagram.com/dawnchere/?hl=en Beam Kids is now available online at https://www.shopbeam.com/COUPLETHINGS Take advantage of our exclusive discount of up to 40% off using code COUPLETHINGS Subscribe to our newsletter ▶ https://www.familymade.com/newsletter Follow our podcast Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/shawnandandrewpods/ Follow My Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/ShawnJohnson Follow My Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@shawnjohnson Shop My LTK Page ▶ https://www.shopltk.com/explore/shawnjohnson Like the Facebook page! ▶ https://www.facebook.com/ShawnJohnson Follow Andrew’s Instagram ▶ https://www.instagram.com/AndrewDEast Andrew’s Tik Tok ▶ https://www.tiktok.com/@andrewdeast?lang=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things, interviews. With Sean and Andrew. Today we have a fun one, Rich and Don Cherie Wilkerson. We had some good giggles in this podcast. We did. A lot of humor. Rich is hysterical.

And seeing their dynamic was so much fun. So Don Chari just wrote a new book called Slow Burn, which we have. Where is it? Where is it? We have it right here. And it's all about how life is in the waiting. Yes. And some really good perspectives.

I feel like I walked away, refreshed, just like encouraged of, hey, you know what? Things don't have to pan out on my timeline. I don't need to feel rushed or stressed or are all worked up. It's like, just enjoy where you're at. And this is where life happens, you know? Don Tree wrote this book after her story of battling eight years of infertility, but still ending up with four kids after that and what she learned through that journey. And then her and her husband actually lead a church Voo in Miami

and hearing their dynamic of how they both lead that and just kind of what they're, Facing in culture today is really, really cool. We talked a little sauna, a little cold plunge, a little pizza. We had a good conversation. We hope you enjoy it. Thank you, Don Sheree, and Rich for joining us. And if you want to learn more about them, including information on how to get Don Sherey's new book,

Slow Burn, then we'll link it down below. But without further ado, we'll bring you Don Sheree and Rich Wilkerson. What do you guys do? Do you guys have junior monitors? What are you? It just is, it mostly makes us feel cool more than anything else. It's official. We're getting a breaking news update.

We're going to have to break away. We need backup, back up, back up. The eagle is in hand. Where do you guys live? We're in Nashville, Tennessee. Oh, my goodness. She's flying to Nashville. I'm coming to Nashville tomorrow.

I lived in Nashville when I was 18, and then we went to school in Tennessee. Yep. In Cleveland, Tennessee. So I really love your city. I've seen it change no much since we were seen. majors. Don Cherie and Rich, how are we today? It's good to see you. Doing good. Sending a lot of love from Miami. It's a beautiful day. Glad to be talking to y'all. Thanks for having us. I love to hear it. Thanks for joining us. Congrats on your new book. That's the reason for our

conversation. Thank you. And I'm excited to talk about the topic at hand, but I first want to hear how you two met. Oh, okay. We met 23 years ago in Nashville, right where you. you are. That's one of the reasons I love your city. And I was 17, so was rich. And we met actually in a church service. Yep. I was there visiting my brother. Little, little unknown fact about Don Tree. Don Tree was a Christian pop artist. So think Christina Aguilera meets Britney Spears meets Jesus. Wow. That's huge. What's the combo you've been waiting for? Yeah.

I think it needs to come back. I was in love with that. Let's just be honest. But she was under a record label in Nashville, and my older brother happened to be to the same record label. I go out to visit him. He's doing a little, like, kind of Christian concert. I think it was at a Christian school,

but it felt like a church service. And in walked Don Chirie, and I saw her, and I was like, yep, that's the one right there. Wow. And started talking to her that day. it took her a while to like me back but we were long distance she lived in shreveport louisiana full time and i was in high school in miami and i hung out of the whole day took her to subway as you do yeah went thrifting after subway there's always at a time you get it answers but um eventually

i found her number from a friend and um i proceeded to call her many many times finally i think days later she called me back and then i learned from her that in her household she doesn't call boys like ever like even when we we probably talked for six months and we were talking but don shrie wouldn't even call me back it was like I had to this is true I had to like make the phone call but um we were 17 years of age we fell madly in love she broke up with me I think two and a half times and eventually after five years of courting she uh she engaged in holy matrimony with me we've been married 15 years in August You guys have been blessed and we've ever seen.

This is insane. This is great. We've been together since we were kids. We grew up together. We've done all of life together. More life together now than we were apart. We've gotten to grow up together. I'm really grateful for it.

So I'm grateful for the long distance. Grateful for getting to go to college together. And then we've been married for 19 years this year. In August, we've been 19 years. And we used to have a lot of dates off of Harding at a little place called Baja Burrito. Ever been there? Oh, my gosh.

You guys got some taste. I love it. You know what's funny is it's still there and it's still great. I used to jar up the salsa and sell it on the black market. One time I forgot my wallet and I had to go to my car and find all the quarters, but they had such good prices. I made it work. I found quarters. Oh, my God.

Wow. Dang, that would be a lot of quarters. Yeah. Two hands. It was like. but dang it was before inflation yeah uh i'm curious so i'm a musical artist with the name don shiree just i feel like that you you were made to it's a very long name my parents and i'm from louisiana originally so double names are very popular and yeah so i think when i was singing i think i

just went by my first name yeah don't sure don't sure don't sure oh yeah but i think i didn't use my last name i think they were literally just using my first name wait well what's your full name it was don chri duron at the time but don chri leney duron yeah then i that's pretty darned got a ring she dropped her middle name and kept my she kept my maiden name which i was totally against really just crushed the i i did the same thing i did you did thank you oh Oh, yeah. It's a part of me. A question, though, have you?

Oh, no. Wides commit to your husband. And so you got to pick and choose your battles. And so she's put her father's name, which I'm totally against. But we've made it work. Yeah. Had you heard about this before or did you do that on your own, the whole like dropping your middle name and keeping your maid a name as?

I don't think it was super popular when I did it. I think it was a little bit of a shock to it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I had never heard of that, except I learned. from my mother-in-law she did the same thing i love it yeah and i was like huh i think i want to do that so you did it shan really glad i did it yeah we married strong women yeah i mean you guys get the last name now you still won but we to win win it's totally a competition that's how much it's good

it is always just strong hand our way into earning the last name i will say it's i mean it's been the most humbling thing in my life to marry Sean because here I was I thought I'd like made it I made the NFL roster and I was like dang my name's going to be up on the marquee sign it's going to be the headlines and then I I walk around after marrying Sean and people call me like Mr. Johnson this is this is probably better for my ego it's fine it's okay well now you know how I feel showed up to a women's conference with Don shrie you know yeah I walk her up to the stage I get on my knees. Yeah.

Country's husband, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You guys actually lead a church together. Yeah. I feel like relatable, similar, not in the sense of we are by no means leading a church. They're a little closer to Jesus.

They're closer to Jesus. You guys spend a lot of time together, actively working, leading, being married, being parents, everything. Does that, was that like a seamless thing? for you guys to incorporate into your marriage was like co-leading and working together or has there been struggles along the way with that? Oh my goodness. Constantly working at it. Constantly for 18 years we've been working together.

Yeah. There's been lots of different challenges. We can talk about those for sure. But once again, I think we met when we were really young. We ended up going to university together. We had the same major. We were in the same Greek clubs together. we graduated together we moved to Miami together we started like a youth ministry

young adult ministry together and so I think in many ways it's just kind of been the grace that's been on our marriage that at this point I feel like we've just always done things like that together that we've learned each other's flow and so I think like any great relationship you have strengths and weaknesses and I think that you're there not to point out your spouse's weakness but to cover those weaknesses and to lean on one another and I think working with Don Sharia has been the joy of my life and hopefully she would say the same absolutely but certainly yeah getting to know each other we're very different personalities she's a little bit more introverted I'm a little bit more extroverted

I get super energized just being around people and hanging out don't shrie loves her family she loves quiet time and so I think all of the different nuances uh working together and figuring out how to build a church has been challenging at times but for the most part I think coming together I like that scripture that two are better than one you know putting the man who falls and has no one to pick him up. I really feel like we're better together. And I think we've figured out the flow of working together and operating together. Often we kind of make the joke that I sort of draw lines. She brings color. Yeah, I think we've spent 18 years together working. We moved to Miami nine months after we got married and just dove head first in the ministry. And we

served for eight years with Rich's parents here in Miami. They were pastoring. And I think that in that in those eight years we wore so many different hats at church wherever there was a need you know we just jump head first into it whether rich was like learning how to do the soundboard or speaking into the kids ministry or working i remember we used to teach membership class rich would learn every single name of the people in the room every time we'd be in there it just like gave us eight years to really experience all the different facets of ministry and so when we started our church which is 10 years this year. It's hard to believe. You know, I think that by then we had a vision, kind of what God was putting in our heart to create. And Rich is a visionary. Like even we have

a conference in a few weeks. And a few months ago, we were sitting on our deck late at night. And he's like, you know, it would be so cool. We should do activation. We should get runners. And we should start in Washington State. And we should run from Washington State to Miami before or Vucon. And I'm like, you're absolutely insane that he like goes to work on it. And it's not Washington States in Jacksonville, Florida. But right now there are people running. It's 400 miles in 40 days.

And so he has these crazy, wonderful ideas of how to create community in an authentic way that's centered on Jesus. And I love it. I love that in what we do, it's about people and that no season is exactly the same. We get to celebrate the faithfulness of God in every season. And so I've seen the faithfulness of God in our marriage to help us learn how to work together. And it's not always easy. It's really not. But anything worth doing is it easy, you know?

So I love that we get to work together and that our kids get to grow up in this community. Yeah. But I don't think what we do is, you know, the model for everyone else to do it. I think sometimes that can be the danger. Yeah. It's like you can look at some. That's how it's supposed to happen. It really has just been our story.

I don't think that we, like, sat down one day and was like, hey, by design, you'll do this or you do that. People always want to know, like, what part do you overlook and what part do you oversee? I mean, that's always sort of a changing thing. I think things that are growing are constantly changing. So I think the strength, hopefully, of our relationship is just the ability to communicate and to handle conflict and respond to those things. But I don't think that we're like a prototype that like, yo, if you're going to start a church, the husband has to do this, the wife has to do that. Right. It's just been our story and God's grace has been upon it.

And I wouldn't trade it for anything. I think getting to work with you is the greatest privilege ever. And in different seasons, that's life, right? Like life is about seasons. And I would say it this way. You have to define the season that you're in so you can determine your rhythm. Balance has never worked out for us. Right now we have a five-month-old little baby who was a surprise.

We're in our 40s. It's our fourth child. There ain't no balance, bro. But there is a rhythm that you can figure out in a, flow that you can get into. And in different seasons, we have both done different things in the church and carry different weight. And what I know about this season is that it's not going to last forever. And that's true with the difficult seasons, the bad seasons, but it's certainly even true with the good seasons that we love. It's all slipping through our fingers like sand. And so as the season

shifts, oh, I'm able to define what I am at right now. Where do I want to win? What do you need to look after? What do I need to look after? Now it's create a rhythm and a flow to match those types of goals. desires with the season that specifically culture is in right now you guys lead a church in Miami which i'm making an assumption here tends to be a little bit younger of a church yeah in ages what do you find is like the hardest um i don't know a thing as a church leader that you're dealing with in ministry right now i think probably what we're doing with is what i sense lots of leaders in and out of the church. We can make some specific things about

challenges in the church. But I think the first challenge just with leaders that people are experiencing is, you know, I love Gen Z. I love the new generation coming up. They're really cause-oriented. They really want to make a great impact in the world. I think in the church, they really crave authenticity.

They really crave black and white. Like, what does the word say? Just tell us we remove the personality, remove all the antics, the nuance, just give it to a straight. So I really appreciate that. What we also know about Gen Z right now is that they tend to change jobs every two and a half years. There's something about this generation right now where something kind of feels monotonous or mundane, then maybe it's not very meaningful. And so I think across the

board when it comes to employees or team or working with people or empowering the next generation, sometimes I'm a little leery of going, man, I'm going to give you this responsibility. Will you steward it or when the next opportunity comes around and you're going to go, oh, that's God because that feels more exciting. That's a challenge. I think within the church right now, we live in an interesting times of all sorts of culture wars. And maybe we don't overtly deal with what I would call like a hard power in America that we have freedom of religion. There's all sorts of soft power, all sorts of messaging that's going forth through media that is breaking down families, breaking down monogamy, breaking down all sorts of, I think, Christian values.

but it's very subtle it's very done and creative nuanced ways and so trying to meet a generation with you know a weekend experience of an hour and 20 minutes uh stats would show that most people go to church one every three weeks and you're trying to combat that with the truth of god's word in a loving caring way i think can at times be challenging that uh i want to be winsome i want to do do everything we possibly can to be salt and light and win people over. But I don't want to lose you from the very first sentence because you've already got a narrative built up from society and culture that I haven't had nearly as much time as they have in your life to serve you well and actually point you to the truth. It's knowing the truth that sets you free. And so I think that

we're always up against that challenge. And I think our challenge right now today is going, all right, we've got this ancient text, this ancient truth. It's good news. All right. Lord, give us the grace. Holy Spirit, fill us. Here we go. We're going to stand in the gap here in a city like Miami, really not known for the gospel or revival or the church. But let's stand on our own little corner. Let's own this spot. And your strength is made perfect in our weakness. And so the Lord has been gracious to us once again. And we have felt really from day one, wind behind our back and the Holy Spirit at work. And it's not a perfect church. But we're really grateful for the fruit that we're seeing, weekend and week out, the stories of salvation, healing,

restoration deliverance. And so for me, I think I speak for Don Chri, it's been the greatest privilege of our life. Yeah. I think it's incredible to see a generation bringing their parents to Jesus, because that's what we get to see. It's really special to see daughters bringing their mothers and their fathers and sons being the one that's really leading their families, their grandparents to Jesus. I love being able to witness that. And we've witnessed that for the last 10 years. And then I also think that they pay a high cost because a lot of the young people that make a decision to follow Jesus. Yes, so grateful to live in America, but many families don't understand that decision, you know, to just surrender your life to Jesus. And so

the, you know, there can be belittling of the decision, what you do on Sundays. Why aren't you at the house with us? Why aren't you doing this or that? There can be belittling. can be just different ways that the family can not really encourage young men and women to follow Jesus. And they have to stand in the gap. And I think the encouragement is like, hey, don't allow yourself to be discouraged in this season. You're standing in the gap for them. You're believing that it may not be this year. It might be five years.

It might be 10 years. But God is seeking them out just like he sought you out. God has a plan for their life and you're standing in the gap for them to find Jesus and so I think it's a beautiful thing that's happening. I love that. I think that the idea of standing in the gap for what could be five or 10 years. It's a natural transition to your book, Slow Burn. Can you tell us a little bit about your backstory and why you're so passionate about this topic of waiting? Absolutely. We've like I said, been married for 19. years this year, but 12 of those years, we didn't have kids. And for eight years, we walked through

infertility. And I think that for us walking through infertility happened, I found out the news on my 25th birthday, never dreamed. I would have trouble. I'm one of seven kids. My mom gave birth the six of those kids. I have an adopted brother. That it was very easy for my parents to start family so that never really even crossed my mind and I think in those eight years I really realized the depth of relationship with God that was available to me I discovered who God is in the way I discovered who I am in him that being seen by God is the validation that I need in life not to be seen by anybody else and I think in those eight years God just reshaped my life in a transformational way And I started writing this concept, Slow Burn, 10 years ago.

So this has been a message that's been in my heart for a really long time, that the concept is simple. Waiting isn't a season, waiting is life. We're all waiting on something. And oftentimes we feel like we're all alone in our weight. We're not everyone is waiting on something. And as soon as you get that, you just change what you're waiting on. You're waiting on something else.

So if waiting is life, the question for us is, will we live in the wait? and I just believe to the depths of my soul like there is so much work there is so much wonder in the way God reveals himself to us as we're desperate for him as we wait on him you can look throughout scripture again and again people like david say on you lord my soul waits and so waiting is not a curse it's not god abandoning us it's actually an invitation and so whether it's an infertility journey or you just graduated and you're stepping into the workforce you're waiting for god to reveal next steps or you know you're retiring and you're going god what's next i just think we're all in it together and the more we talk about it and acknowledge that god is waiting to reveal something

to us in it the more inspired will be to really cherish where we are that's wonderful do you think it's harder to wait these days is it harder to stay in the waiting now than it was for King David? I think so with our phones and the way all of our brains are being rewired. Like, just we're used to everything happening quickly from transportation to entertainment to food. I mean, none of us want to wait long for food to be cooked these days. Uber eats is at an all-time high. So I think without a doubt, it's really hard. But we draw from the same well as David. So we get to go back to the same source and find the peace and the strength that he found. So that's encouraging. I think as you look all throughout the

scriptures, it's amazing how God uses time as a tool. And it's a tool to develop us. It's a tool that often we find ourselves in a trial. James says, consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, when you face trials of many kinds. Eugene Peterson, I think he paraphrases it saying, you know, consider it a sheer gift. Like, what? I don't think I've ever gone through trial. I'm like, what a gift? You know, like, that's not typically how we think about something, but what is that gift producing in us, James would say that it's producing perseverance, which must happen that we might become mature and complete. And I think the heart of what Don Tree's written about and what she so hones in on that's so profound is that if we don't learn how to wait, we're going to live life

immature and incomplete. And I remember one time, I'm a big pizza, pizza guy. Oh, my gosh, dude, we do need to hang out. We'll do sauna and then we'll pizza. Bro, water one, card games, maybe. Pizza in the sauna. Oh, dude. That sounds terrible. Oh, my gosh.

I'm dripping sweat. That sounds like heaven. Okay. What a little pizza reason? This is like packed. This place is like, this place is pumping. And there's a line out the door. Finally got seated.

When I sat down, this place is like known for great pizza. I like this piece. I've had it many times. But when it came out, I don't know how. how you like your pizza and you're like the pizza comes out i think a bite i'm like yo this thing this is all like you know the undercarriage is doughy i mean this thing's got to be it's got to be it's got to be more crisps in this you know it was hot you know but in the words of little caesar we want it hot and ready and it's a whole constant constantly that we want in the way it can

feel like a furnace it can feel like fire but but god i think he's developing us and when he pulls us out of these waiting seasons. It's not just because we're hot and passionate and excited and desiring so many times in my life. I think starting a church is like we're full of zeal. We're full of excitement. We're full of vision. But you can be all of those things, but it doesn't mean that you're ready. And if you get pulled out too soon or if you get something too soon or too quick, you don't actually have the foundation of the maturity or the strength to actually walk it out and things fall apart quickly. And I think Don Schurie's book, I mean, I've read every page of it, but I've also just watched her live this message. It's, it's not just, I think sometimes

people think the word patience and they go, oh, patience, the ability to wait. I wouldn't define patience that way. I think patience is not just the ability to wait. It's how you wait. How do I actually wait? Because like you just said, I think life is waiting. We're all going to be waiting one way or another. The question is how will you wait? And in our experience, one of the greatest blessings, and I can probably we only say this now, but one of the greatest blessings that we ever walked through was going through infertility because there was things in that valley that, A, we learned about ourselves, but more than what we learned about ourselves, we learned about God. Lessons that we learned about God that the mountaintop could never, ever teach us. And I wouldn't trade any of that

for one second. And the big revelation of the big aha for me, as just walking through this with DC is that waiting seasons aren't wasted seasons that many times when you look back on life you'll go oh man now I can see it's like I think Kiergaard said one time the only way you can like life has to be lived forward but can only be understood looking backwards and so much of our stories in that way it was like you know that I wanted to get out of that valley I wanted to get out of that fire but now looking back whoa that thing was strengthening me that was preparing me that was developing that was getting me ready when I think about our stories story of infertility, like, there's no doubt that that was one of the great tools that God

used to form my soul, but hopefully journey into the man that I'm becoming even right now. I was just going to ask, though, I love that. I agree with that. But in a time where we have all of these books and resources where people are basically preaching the opposite, where they're like, you need to know when to quit. You need to know when to get a divorce or to say infertility is permanent and I'm just going to not have kids and I'm going to give up or I feel like we just live in a culture where people

are obsessed with this idea that waiting means something's wrong instead of the ability to have faith and persevere through it. How do you convince them otherwise? How do you convince someone to stay through the hardship of a job

and find more fulfillment later rather than say to the Gen Ziers, oh, it's time to go find another one. Yeah, I think that we can't convince them to do anything, but point them towards personal relationship with Jesus. So waiting is one thing, but waiting on God is a whole other experience. And all of us, I don't even want to say others, because I find myself falling into the same fault of we desire patterns. Like, I want a formula. Tell me how to make the recipe. Tell me how to get from point A to point B.

Show me the best way that in life there are no shortcuts. And there aren't patterns when it comes to our purpose in God. And so we want to reach for the pattern and go, oh, they said this is how long it should take. They said this is when I should give up on trying to have children. But really, the only way we find a purpose is from waiting on the one who made the plan for our life. and that's God. And so I think that all of us, we need encouragement. That's why I love church. I love community that's centered on Jesus because we're not all running the same race.

We're all headed in the same direction. But God is leading us and he has a plan for us. So I think when we are tempted to get the shortcut or we just want to have somebody tell us what to do, it's like I'm brought back to that reminder of, no, God's word. tells me to be still. I don't need to run. I need to be reminded that he's in control. Be still and know that I am God. So I'm not the author of my story. And I don't want to get ahead of him. I want to wait on him. Yes, there's work. There's purpose right here in the wait. But I also want to be aware, God, I'm not trying to pick anybody else's life or running anybody else's lane.

Like, I want to wait on you. And I think that's the difference. in waiting. It's like it's not just waiting for waiting's sake. It's waiting on the one who can create acceleration and redeem time in ways that we could never dream. So we think we're behind. He can flip that upside down in a moment. And I do want to say like the story of this book is not a story of like waiting so you can get what you want. The message of the book is when you wait on God, your life is filled with purpose and destiny and God's faithfulness and his presence is going to mark your life until you see him face to face. Because that's what we're all waiting on.

So what happens if you don't get the baby in this life? What happens if you don't get that job or you don't see God restore that marriage? Well, God's faithfulness is going to be proven to you because he keeps his word and he's going to be with you. And he's going to carry you through the darkest seasons of your life. And you have the promise of eternity. And that's really that awe, that draw, that deep seated. Scripture says eternity is seated in our hearts. That's what we're all waiting on.

We're waiting until we're not waiting anymore. And I think for Don Tree and I, like, we've been leading this church for almost 10 years. And, man, it's the thrill of our life getting to lead a community. But our church is built on our very, very simple value. Jesus is our message. And, you know, that's a good handle. But, like, that handles attached to a really big bag, you know.

What does that mean, Jesus is your message? Well, we're going to go to the person of Jesus. What did he teach? How did he live? What was the posture of his life? What can we learn from the rhythms of his life? We are forming and trying to follow this man. We believe he's not just a man. We believe he is the son of God who died on a cross for our sins and resurrected from the grave. And in him comes eternal life. And when I think about Jesus' words, it's like he says, seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. And the context of all these things is all these things. What am I going to eat? What am I going to wear? Where am I going to live? He's talking about not worrying there. And I think when we speak about, and I don't look at us all becoming old, you know, just

Jedzy. We're not those people. It's not in society at large, right? No doubt. I've got everything on my TV right now is feeding an algorithm of what I want, what I desire. Your TV does it. Your YouTube does it. Your news feed does it.

So it's all like based upon me, me, me, me. but Jesus is saying man if you'll seek me if you'll seek the kingdom I'm going to take care of you and so I think we're teaching a generation it's always pointing back to that target like the entire Bible it wasn't written during the industrial age it's all written on farming tactics and planting seed and what happens when a seed goes in the ground well the dirt that comes on top of it is full of darkness it's dirty it's heavy it's weighty and then there's this thing called it takes time. And I think many times we can go through life coming out, I feel so buried by the pressure or this job. I feel buried by it. So we just quit. We just uproot, uproot. But if you can start

to look at the scriptures and see how Jesus taught, well, no, your life's like a seed. So if you're a seed, you're not buried. You're actually planted. What that means is that you're not going to grow overnight, but over time, if you'll stay planted, you will begin to flourish and you'll begin to grow. I think for all of us, I think what you said is really powerful. Like if we're followers of Jesus. And I know people today that are maybe watching there go, man, these guys are talking a lot about Jesus. But there's lots of people that probably listen to this podcast that maybe are not followers of Jesus. But if you're a follower of Jesus, that means like, yeah, we all have a race. Sean's got a race. Andrew's got a race. You guys have a collective race as a marriage

and a family. Same for DC and I. But that race is heading the same direction. We are running towards the person of Jesus and towards eternity that awaits all of us that I think has actually begun in this eternal life. And I heard a story from a friend of mine. And I'll get the details wrong. I won't know the names, but it's a story at the Olympics. And I don't know which one it was, but it was in the last 20 years. And it's like a rifle shooter, like one of these guys that, like, does shooting. Target shooting.

He's like the best in the world. And he gets up for his final shot. He's winning by a whole lot. And he hits a perfect bullseye. The only problem is, is that he aimed at the wrong target. He aimed at his neighbor's target. And with it, he lost. He didn't lose because of his skills.

He didn't lose because he wasn't a good shooter. In fact, he was the best in the world. He lost because he aimed at the wrong thing. And I find that to be so challenging because in my life, when we're talking about waiting, I think that if your aim is just to be successful, or if your aim is just to be great, or if your aim is just to make money, if your aim is just to have profit, your aim is to be famous, man, this is the wrong target. But if you make your aim to say, I'm not called to be successful.

to be faithful. I'm called to be obedient. Obedience will at times put you in a place that you will go through trials. You'll have to wait. You'll have to sacrifice. But when you get the right target, I believe in a God who meets our needs, who takes care of us, who promises us not just to happily ever after, but a heaven ever after. And I long for the day that we hear, well done, good and faithful servant. And my challenge to be to anybody out there, if you're saying, how do you convince them to wait? It's like, what target are you aiming at? Like, what's the focus of your life? Because anything great didn't happen overnight. It happens over time. Yeah. There's some mushroom that take five hours to grow, but then there's oak trees that take 50 years to grow. The mushroom swelled,

the oak tree grew. Do you want to swell? Or do you want to grow? I want to be a person. that's committed to growing and I think that's going to take time and so all of those things point your life in the direction of Jesus focus on growing your life is a seed and watch as you flourish I love that I'm hard I mean it's difficult because you don't know when your season awaiting begins yeah and you don't know when it'll end so how do you how do you then approach even like the day to day of like, hey, whatever goals you have is the church or whether it's that that community run, which I love that idea. There's nothing like form a community through a little pain and suffering and struggle.

I think honestly, it's a great way to do it. A little fitness is great for it. I was in Jacksonville last night running with 30 people I just met. It was awesome. It's amazing. I was like, I had an idea on my deck. But you have these ideas or goals. You don't know.

Those almost like come up sporadically sometimes, but like, okay, then I have this idea of I want to achieve this or I want to have kids or I want whatever has not become reality yet. And then those come up and then all of a sudden you are kind of like waiting for it. And it could be a couple days or weeks or it could be. I'm thinking of you guys in year seven of infertility. like how do you wake up and still carry that hope or like what's the what's the strategy what's what's my toolkit and waiting well i can speak to what i found in the weight and i think having a life i love flexibility my parents are musicians my dad's a football coach and a pastor my mom is a writer and so we lived a very like flexible never know what one week is going to hold or what one day is

going to hold that there were certain disciplines that held that flexibility together just like if you want to like you know knock out a wall in a building you still have the load bearing beams that have to remain the same in orders for the house to remain standing and so i think like having daily disciplines really creates a structure that sustains your waiting for me uh finding life through the word of god community having friends that speak life over me like sometimes you can have have relationships that are negative and critical and that's not helping your weight. That's probably prolonging your weight, honestly, and like giving you a really bad frame for the way that you view the season you're in.

But the right community, taking the time to invest in community because it takes time. I think I used to think like relationships just come naturally and if you hit it off with someone, you hit it off and you make time. But I think the older I get now I'm 40, I'm like, oh, I have to schedule this and I have to value it because life gets really busy and I won't make any time. for life-giving relationships, going into our marriage. I think that the disciplines, I loved what David said in the Bible. He says, God, I lay the pieces of my life out on the altar before you every morning and wait

for your fire to fall. And so there's this really beautiful picture of like an incense offering like incense is just grains alone, but then you put it on a heat source and it's suddenly like transformed. It goes from grains to like smoke and a fragrance that can fill an entire room. And to me, that's the slow burn, like surrendering your little to God and then watching him daily, transform it into something that you never could. And so I think in my life, the waiting season, my disciplines of worship, of identity in Christ, of knowing that I'm loved, of surrounding myself with a community that speaks life over me and celebrates the little things because discipline we often think of as like really grueling things. right so in my life like prayer worship um sabbath um what else would be uh solitude like those are beautiful disciplines that we learn through the word of god but celebration is a discipline richard foster

wrote a whole book on it and celebration is one of the most important disciplines because if you don't celebrate the little steps you're never going to live a life of discipline because you'll give up like all those other disciplines they get boring and you'll get burned out if you don't celebrate celebrate a journey. And so we came up, there's a phrase and culture, this must be the place. And we just grab that as our own. Like, this is going to be the place we celebrate. Like, it may be a random Tuesday, but we can, we don't have to have a beautiful balloon landscape and, and a fancy cake to celebrate. That's not what celebration is. It's placing value on a moment and taking time to honor it. And so I think that in the wait, you got to learn to celebrate the work that you're

pouring your life into like i found purpose and working working isn't like a part of a of the curse we were created to work to steward to diligently take care of what's been entrusted to us but also like the wonder that god even my tears you say that those who sow in tears are going to reap with shouts of joy so you even take my tears as seeds that's amazing i'll hang in here and i'll trust you you're doing more than i can see but i think celebration is a game changer in the way that's so good I mean, because waiting is not, it's not doing nothing. No. It doesn't sound like it's definitely not quitting.

It seems like with this faith-based approach, it's like gratitude and it's curiosity and it's the disciplines that I think are the things that form you on a day-to-day basis. That's wonderful. Yeah, and like unforeseen fulfillment, like in ways that you never thought the story could go in the way. I think that when you take on a perspective. of what could happen. My eyes are open. Is there more than I see right now?

Because if there's more God, I want to see it. Like so often you're waiting until the next season, it's like, oh, there's more opportunities here. I want to stay alert. I want to be aware. I want to carry an attitude that's open to something that I wasn't expecting. You guys have been married for 12 years? Yeah, we've been married 19.

And we have a 7-year-old right now. So we were without kids for 12 years. So 19 years later, four kids. Yes. How did it feel the first time you had your first baby? It was so special. In the book Slowbird, I share a few of my journaling trees because journaling for me has been really transformational in the weight. It's been a way for me to process the desires in my heart to write down honestly how I felt.

And when I reflect, I don't have to, like, conjure up memories. Like, research has shown that our memories, they morph over time. You can't really trust your memories. So there's an old, I think it's a Chinese proverb that the faintest pin is stronger is greater than the strongest memory because our memories change. But if you take the time to write down and journal, you can get a more honest glimpse of where you were in the past. And so I think for me, I journaled about the day that my first son, Wyatt, was born. And I got to return to it when I was writing this book. And I hadn't returned to it in like five years.

So I got to read how, you know, he came out just yelling and Rich was yelling. What were you yelling? He was going, he's a legend. He's a legend. Well, all the time, it pulls him up. Oh, my gosh. But I'm also laughing. Like, laughter just came out of my heart as I heard him cry for the first time.

And it was a surreal moment. It was beautiful. It was wonderful. And then you're plunged into the deep seas of no sleep and, you know, just surviving. But it's all beautiful. And with every kid, I grow more grateful for those early days. It hasn't gotten easier. I think this recovery was my hardest.

I was 40. But, man, you just realize how quickly the seasons change. How they change every little day. My five-month-old is huge. And I'm going, wow, this is already slipping through my hands. it makes you treasure each moment. We always think about kids like, you know, ice that's melting in our hands. Yeah.

You're trying to save her every moment this morning. We were actually, our kids are all in homeschool and they were at their co-op today. And so two of them, I guess three of them all had types of graduation. Yeah, I'm all dressed up. We came from a preschool graduation. They did like a drum circle on buckets. It was pretty impressive. My kids are kind of fun of geez.

I don't want to brag about them too much. Like with my oldest, you know, when he was born, I want to believe. leave. And I think there's other people that are probably listening right now. There's something really beautiful. Like the scripture says hope deferred makes the heart grow sick. That's very true. But there's also probably an add onto that scripture, which is hope revealed is always worth the wait. And there's something about waiting for something and finally getting to hold it. I want to believe, at least my experience has been, there's a deeper appreciation. It feels like it cost us something. It feels like it was many, many years.

of praying and belief. And really, you know, the great revelation I think that Don Sri and I both came to on that journey was if we never, ever, ever hold a baby in our hand, Jesus is enough. And I don't just say that from the aftermath. That was really the beginning of the slow burn message. The first time Don Tree ever shared her infertility story,

if you can believe this, publicly was on a stage in Sydney, Australia, in front of 10,000 plus women. And she was teaching from the story of, Sarah and Abraham, and with it, she was talking about a slow burn faith. And the message that she gave that day is she announced that she was going through infertility. But there wasn't like this great miracle that she was pregnant now. And like, by the way, ladies, it wasn't that moment. It wasn't. The message ended with going, and if I never hold a baby, I'm holding Jesus. And that's enough. And there was something so powerful of a raw testimony being shared in real time. A lot of times

we wait to share our story. A lot of times we wait till God's kind of tied it in a bow. It's like, and now I'm holding the baby. But that really wasn't ever our testimony. The baby wasn't actually a testimony. It was the faithfulness of God, which is what we were able to testify about. And so finally getting to have my son like, yeah, I was at a different point in my life. I was in my mid-30s. I had already traveled the world a couple times. We'd already started a church. I feel like it was all God's timing. I feel like, you know, I was probably a late bloomer when it comes to maturity. It's taken me a long time.

God's had to hammer all sorts of stuff out of me. But when I finally had my first born son, it's like, oh, now I'm ready to be a father now. And this is what I'm about. I'm about, this is dad life for me. Hashtag dad life. I've got three boys and a girl. The girl's my favorite by far. All of these things, you know, like people are waiting.

And I do think that so many of us are suffering silently, not knowing that people on our right and left are in the same situation. That's what is so powerful, I think, about your story as well. When you start to open up about your journey, it just gives people the freedom to go, oh, me too, you know, me too. And so slow burn, if anything, is meant to be an encouragement in people's hearts. Hey, as you wait, you are not alone. We are all in the waiting room together and we can party in the waiting room.

Well, thank you for writing it and thank you for being the type of people who have the daily disciplines and do things like daily journal that I think bring so much color and light to this where it's like, okay, what does it look like to be in the waiting phase? And then what does it look like to be on the other side? I think like those zoomed in kind of higher resolution moments where you're actually going through it make it incredibly powerful. I'm curious though because you guys run this church and you have four kids and you're busy. all these hobbies. I intentionally schedule my day to day and my really year to year in a way that I don't have to wait at all or as little as possible. You know what I'm saying?

It's like I'm going to have the food ready at 115. I'm going to pick it up and then we're going to have a 1.30 meeting after I eat for a little bit and then we're going to put the kids down at 7 o'clock and then I'm going to sauna from 730 to 8 and then I'm going to do my homework. And it's like, so do you guys force yourself to wait in like an intention? intentional way or do you just wait for those moments of waiting or how does that look you cannot escape waiting we just we just came from meeting before this where we're building a new church building because we need to make space for more people but i mean this is going to be a three-year journey and

it's already been a doozy like i just think that yeah we try the same thing we want to have it stack we want to maximize our time that bedtime every night is quite the experience of my yeah yeah That's the whole wilderness that's wonderful. I don't want to complain because I waited so long. I love it. But patience is growing in my life. It's funny you're asking that because I've actually heard some people teach on that where it's like to slow down to the pace of Jesus.

There is something about Jesus, right? Like this guy doesn't feel like he was ever interrupted. He's never running anywhere. We never have a picture of him ever running. Hey, your friend's going to die. It's going to be okay. Waits two more days. It's like, I've actually heard people even teach on just going, you know, take the longer line at the supermarket or, you know, don't jump out of, I'm not to that level of maturity right now.

You know, everyone's got a plan, Mike Tyson says, until you get punched in the face. I get punched in the face every day from something that I wasn't expecting. So I'm not intentionally looking for ways. But man, you know, what does Paul say? Paul says we go, you know, I love you. what is the definition of love? He really defines it. Love is patient.

Love is kind. Does not end me. Does not boast. It keeps no record of wrongs. It's not easily angered. What's interesting is that the definition of love, none of those things are a feeling. Those things are all decisions and choices.

I don't think I've ever felt patient. We've all prayed God make me patient, which is a dangerous prayer, I might add, because the way that God's going to make you patient is he's going to make you wait. but I think you just live and life's going to bring things everything that you just described from an efficiency standpoint or trying to be effective of course we're we're trying to do all those things I think you guys are professional athletes so you probably got his beat I'm not going to lie

I was a pretty good water polo player in high school I don't want to two more but I just think like I think when it comes to patients those things are coming our way no matter what but we're we're definitely trying to you know maximize and be effective with our day all of my days are labeled. I think I live a very kind of, I think people would go, man, your life feels all the place. You're moving all the time. But it's actually quite structured. The way I'm able to be flexible and do some of the things I'm able to do creatively is because of the structure in the week and all the different kind of daily disciplines that we've created is what is what I believe. But I think those things are good things. I think those things bring us peace and stability,

help our emotional state. Life is going to happen to us. And there's some, things that we don't get to control. And I think the thing that we're trying to learn is that it's like God's not looking for our strength. He is looking for our surrender. And so when these things approach us in life, what is our response? We're just going to try to muscle our way through. Are we just going to try to swing our way through? We're just going to live angry. We live irritable. Are we going to live worried, fearful? Those are all the tell signs, man, that I'm not being led by the spirit. That happens for me time to time. But I've got to keep checking myself and I've got to continue to bring it back to Jesus and say, well, I surrender again.

Enjoy the journey. Yeah, I, when we were going through your book, I was thinking of just the movie Click. And that movie makes you cry, but it, and then made me think of marriage with Sean. We've been playing card games every night and it kind of feels like waiting to a certain extent. It's like, we're not doing anything really productive with our time or just together. Or like when we're at the airport waiting on whatever, whatever airport. plane and uh it's like that that really is the golden moments like that is what makes marriage

in a lot of ways so precious where it's like sean is the one i'm waiting with like all through life all these little moments where something's not happening we're just together and that's kind of what makes it meaningful i don't know i love that got me all sentimental no it's beautiful i asked a friend one time how how should you pick a spouse and he says choose someone that you'd want to suffer with. I'm like, wow. And so I didn't get added to this book. Who do you want to wait with?

Who do you want to do the mundane thing with? Because back to Don Tree's language, I think life is waiting. And I think you just nailed it. Like, the highlight of your life is not just the awards and the medals that you guys have won. The highlight of your life is playing cards with your wife and going to bed and saying, you're the one I get to do this life with. That's what you're going to remember.

Those are the things we're going to look back on. And so. All the way. naming that and going, man, there's actually these beautiful memorable moments in all of this monotony and stuff that feels so mundane. So why are we just trying to, like you just said, the movie, click through this and speed through this. We have a joke. You know, everyone loves to go on vacation. Vacation's awesome. But I've actually decided my favorite part of vacation, it's taking me 41 years, guys. So get ready, this is deep revelation. My favorite part of vacation is preparing for vacation.

It's so excited. Like how much time? caught. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, the it weren't the it itinerary because you get to vacation with vacation. It's over. It's like it just happens. And so I'm trying to go, man, I'm not trying to get through anything. I want to go, oh man, the anticipation to build the expectation of the process of getting there is just as beautiful as actually arriving. Which, by the way, we are big card fans too. My kids love. Oh, man. I spent my Saturday this weekend playing Go Fish, Uno. I played the matching game with my son, but he set out the cards and the first three choices he made, he somehow made pairs.

And I was like, I was, so cheating right now. I mean, strategy was great there. We do a $1,000 buy-ins for Uno, so. I can't wait. We're going to do SANA, pizza, and card games whenever we do it. Oh, man, that's great. Well, thank you for the time.

a real treat of a conversation um man it's it's a really important topic and uh i'm glad someone like you wrote about it and i'm glad to have both of you here to unpack that but uh excited excited to hang in person at some point yes thank you make it happen we're super grateful for you guys man thank you for having us and uh if you're ever in miami sleep at my house let's go and and coming in national nights yeah yes good deal well your bedroom's ready so let us I love you guys. Thank you both.